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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 10:56 AM
Original message
Please contact the Obama campaign about FISA immunity
Ask them why they aren't coming out against this.
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree.K & R!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Do we know that for a fact? nt
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes, we know that for a fact. How do we know? Because the bill is being voted on.
If the Democratic Nominee for President did not want this bill to get a vote, do you think Wussy Harry would bring it to the floor?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. They're voting on this in the Senate now, too? I didn't know.
And I haven't read that Obama approves this message. Do you have a link?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Hmmm... am I wrong on this? I'm relying on a radio show from yesterday.
They said that this was set to pass the House and Senate tomorrow (Friday). If I'm wrong I apologize.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I heard yesterday that the House was voting on it today...
and the Senate would vote on it next week. I think I heard that on Keith's show last night.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
39.  That makes more sense to me.
I really, really hope you're right. We need to get some organized opposition to this.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Don't know. I turned on the Senate hearing, saw Orrin Hatch blathering away,
so kept going. Hoyer's on blathering away during the FISA bill (vote). He's worse because he was supposed to be representing us, and isn't doing so.

The Senate could be voting this p.m. I don't know, but I think the results are going to be similar. I'm not ready to blame Obama for that though.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. If this passes the Senate, it will be with Obama's approval. There's no other way to see it.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Why? He's the presumptive nominee, he's not anything else at this
point. Would you have the same opinion if he voted against FISA and it passes anyway? And if so, why?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. You don't think Obama could pick up the phone and stop this in one minute?
Obama is now the most powerful Democrat in the country and likely to be the next President. You think Wussy Harry would defy him?

Individual votes don't count for shit. The outcome is assured and the votes are staged. Obama's vote means far less than his actions in this case.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes I'm sure all those rethugs who will be voting for FISA give a
flip what Obama says or does. But you place blame where you need to.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. You do know the Rethugs are in the *minority*, don't you.
If Pelosi and Reid did not want this bill to come to a vote, it would not come to a vote. If Obama wanted it blocked, it would be blocked.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. That's why the Dems in the Senate have so overwhelmed their
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 11:41 AM by babylonsister
constituents with all their laws passed, I suppose. Open your eyes; we are *barely* in the majority. If this was true, why don't we just stop funding this war, and stop FISA from being passed? Your rose-colored glasses need cleaning.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. You're talking apples and oranges. *Stopping* a bill is easy in the Senate.
It's passing one that's hard. There's no way you pass a bill without the approval of the leadership of the majority party.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Babylonsister you know I love Obama to death and have been
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 11:44 AM by Catherina
immensely supportive. I've never given ANY candidate over a few hundred yet for Obama I maxed out despite neoliberal tendencies I deplore and despite severe disagreement on groveling to AIPAC. He must oppose FISA forcefully before he justifies the perception on the Left that he's no different than the rest of them. If Obama wants to win, he needs votes from little people more than ever now.

This is no time to waffle. We have his back, he must have ours too.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yep -- at this point I've given more to Obama than I have to Edwards
But I'm taking him at his word that he believes in grass-roots, bottom-up politics. I don't plan on just sitting back and watching this election.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Did you see post #10?
And I don't buy that he has unlimited control in the Senate because he's the presumptive nominee. Hell, * IS president and he doesn't even have that.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. * sure as hell had it when the Repugs were in charge.
And, sadly, he just about has it now. :(

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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Yes. It's a start but I'm very serious about his need to be forceful
and forcefully speak out against it.

I know he's not God but I expect more than a statement for the amount of blood, sweat, love and money we poured into him. I cut him a LOT of slack and will continue to work hard for him but FISA is too tremendously important to let go with a statement and a vote.

It would also show other politicians what it takes to get people's continued and loyal support. We're not for cheap sale as they seem to think. I also don't want Obama to blow it by alienating little voters as if the center is going to pick up the slack if he disappoints the netroots too often. He's already got a huge problem with the prowar wing of the Democratic Party and any racist Dixiecrats. He can't afford to alienate the more Left spectrum right now. Not everyone is willing to go out on a limb trusting the hope and change promise without hard evidence.

I'm glad Dean is at his side right now. Very glad.

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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Obama Staff "Literally Reviewing FISA as we speak"
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. I called the Obama Campaign. He is opposing the FISA bill and supports Dodd.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. Him and Feingold should take turns filibustering it
If he really means he opposes it, which I don't believe he does. He might vote against it in the Senate but he won't stop it. Being the nominee he can stop it with one phone call.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. My brief letter
Dear Senator Obama,

Please don't underestimate your supporters. We know that FISA
immunity cannot pass the Senate without your tacit approval.
We know you can stop this if you choose to.

Sincerely,
jgraz
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Did you even bother to read the post above yours?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Nope -- sometimes posts overlap. But it didn't change my opinion
I stand by my assessment: if this bill passes the Senate, it will be with Obama's tacit approval.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. FYI Obama has one vote in the senate and you know his stance on this bill
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. He's the Democratic nominee for President. One word from him and this bill goes away.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Obama has one vote in the senate
Dont give me this nominee stuff. He has one vote. He can vote once.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Don't be an idiot. Please read up on how the Senate really works.
Any Senator can put a hold on a bill. 41 Senators can block a bill. And if the Majority Leader doesn't want a bill to come to a vote, it doesn't come to a vote.

And, if the Democratic Nominee for President makes the bill an issue, it dies a very quick death.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. This bill will pass whether we like it or not
There are enough democrats in both the house and senate who will vote for this bill.

It would be a bad decision if Obama decided to stall this bill as it would underscore fractions within the party.

Winning the white house is our priority.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:52 AM
Original message
And if winning the WH means pissing on the 4th Amendment to do so
You're cool with that?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
35. Except that's a false choice. Most people HATE Bush and his wiretapping
Let me say it again, in case we all forgot: THIS IS THE MOST UNPOPULAR PRESIDENT IN HISTORY.

Why the fuck are we even talking about giving in to him politically???

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. We're going to win the White House. Let's not pretend we have to cave on civil rights to do so.
I know the bill will pass whether *we* like it or not, because the folks in Congress don't give a flying fuck what you and I think. But it will NOT pass if Obama doesn't want it to.


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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. And who guarantees it that we will win the white house?
Do you think the democrat members of hourse and senate are all DU democrats?

It would be a back breaker for us if we were divided. Keep that in mind. It certainly is not a good thing that this bill is going to pass but after this Nov certain issues like this can be revisited. (With a bigger and better majority in both the house and senate)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. John McCain guarantees it. But no matter what, gutting the 4th amendment isn't worth it.
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 12:21 PM by jgraz
If we have to win that way, we've already lost.


Edit: And it's "Democratic members of house and senate", not "democrat". Just sayin...

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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I like to say democrat..hate to say democratic
And you simply dont get it.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. One is a Repug slur, the other is the name of our party. But suit yourself.
And maybe you could explain exactly what it is that I don't get, since you haven't refuted a single thing I've said.
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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. You dont understand that to win the big prize you must compromise
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 12:12 PM by thewiseguy
Thats why Obama gave the speech that he did to AIPAC. Thats why he wont fillibuster the FISA bill. Thats why he wont support impeaching Bush.

Those are probably cardinal sins to the DU members but Obama has to appeal a broader group of citizens who may not share the same values or opinions that we do.

Why do you think the democrats won the house and senate in 06? Many of those who got elected were moderate to conservative. Change comes slowly.

Change does not come around overnight. It takes time and it is extremely important that we elect Barack to the White House. That will only come around if the democrats are fully behind him, rather divided over FISA or offshore drilling.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Wow, you sound like you've run a lot of presidential campaigns. I'm impressed.
Well, if someone with your extensive experience with Presidential politics says we have to wipe our collective ass with the Constitution in order to win, you must be right. After all, you seem like you must have gotten HUNDREDS of people elected to the White House.

Oh yeah: :eyes:


And, BTW, the 2006 takeover of Congress was a Progressive sea-change in American politics, no matter how the right-wingers try to spin it. Go read this post I made just after the election if you want a bit more data to support that:

To those of you who still think centrists won this election


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thewiseguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Yea I closed it once I saw Jim Webb's name there
FYI Webb supports offshore drilling. So much for progressives getting elected in 06.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Good move. God forbid you should learn something.
The point is not that Jim Webb or Zack Space have turned out to be somewhat disappointing. It's what they ran on and won on. OF COURSE some of them are going to not live up to their campaign images, but Webb is still an economic populist and a strong advocate against the war.


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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Little facts like that don't matter; this is all Obama's fault now!
:cry:
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Did you even bother to read my post above?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. I'm going to tailor that a little for my own use. He's not Almighty God
and may not be able to stop it but he sure as hell needs to take a forceful stand.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I don't think he has ultimate power. I just can't believe Wussy Harry would stand up to him
Can you imagine what would happen if Obama came out and publicly said he does not want this bill passed under any circumstances? Or, if he just called Wussy Harry and said that he would consider it a personal favor if that FISA bill went away.


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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. I love Obama but fear him too
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 12:32 PM by Catherina
We are trusting a virtual unknown with our country. With our hopes, our dreams, our children.

We're also trusting a virtual unknown to go against some of the most ruthless, greedy, sociopathic people in the world.

Obama let the people clothe him in the robes of a savior.

Well, it's showtime now.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. His speeches are all about the power of "we", and I'm holding him to it.
"We" need to keep these guys honest -- or at least some reasonable approximation of honesty.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. That is exactly how I see it
Edited on Fri Jun-20-08 12:39 PM by Catherina
It's WE and yes WE can so I'm not shutting up or sitting back.

He's walking into the snakepit and he's going to need us more than ever to watch his back but he can't be trying to play nice with the snakes either.
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