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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:32 AM
Original message
They were not trolls, they were Democrats.
There's been a lot of celebration since June 11th when certain members of DU have been tombstoned and some of it is justified, but some of it isn't. As a community we need to understand the difference.

The vast majority of those TS'd were sockpuppets and trolls who's only purpose here was to disturb DU and cause hostility.

But Tellurian, Ozarkdem and certain others weren't trolls, they were Democrats who had been with this board since the beginning. They spent years here donating, voicing opinions and supporting Democrats. Now they are gone.

I understand the mods decision in each of these cases and know they had to go. I found myself alerting their threads and asking repeatedly why they were still allowed to post here so I'm certainly not questioning anyone in that.

What I am questioning is what has happened to cause good Democrats who spent years fighting for the values we all share to change into people so obsessed with anger and hatred that they would turn against the very things they believed in?

The worst part of this is I know that if Hillary had won the nomination the same thing would be happening with Obama supporters unable to separate themselves from their candidate in order to support Democratic beliefs.

I've been around DU long enough to know that while there were a few posters who had to be banned after Kerry was nominated in 2004 it was nothing like this amount and there were definitely fewer gloating threads to celebrate their demise.

So what happened this time that caused all this hostility and venom? What has caused good Democrats to turn against their own values?

Really, what has happened to us?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. IBTL
By the way, one of the "Good Democrats" you mention in your op went out of her way to suggest she "hoped I got sick and had no health insurance". With ZERO justification, mind you. Me, a long-time supporter of a SPHC system, and someone with a close relative who is severely handicapped. That particular poster went all Mike Savage on me.


Sorry. If it walks like a troll, smells like a troll, it's a fucking troll.

And if one is a good democrat, one should figure out how to get behind the DEMOCRATIC nominee. Period.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. I'm not defending them. I know how ugly they became.
I was attacked as well and know they had to be TS'd. I'm surprised it actually took as long as it did.

What I'm asking is what the Hell happened to change them into what they became? Trolls don't spend seven years giving to a site and expressing Democratic values just so they can show their true colors for a few months.

Something in the nature of this primary was different and DU was at it's epicenter. Maybe we should be asking why so that we can work to avert this behavior next time.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
49. This is CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!!!!
I will never forget this. It has left a hole in my heart.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. So Obama is to blame for what's going on in DU?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
100. I don't know. Honestly, it was weird that long-time DU people would act that way.
And yeah, the mods exercised extreme restraint in many of those cases.

I agree. It was odd. Without being too much of an armchair psychoanalyst, I think some folks (obviously) got very emotionally invested in their candidate- and I think particularly with the case of Hillary Clinton, you had a bunch of different vectors going on... I mean, I will be the first to acknowledge that Hillary & Bill caught a lot of unfair crap in the 90s- I was one of the people out there defending them.

But whereas some of us made a distinction between Hillary before she got to the Senate and after, focusing on things like the IWR- and others supported Hillary but were able to distinguish between Democratic Criticism of her on the like and the shit that Mellon-Scaife and Pat Robertson threw at her 15 years ago.... I think some people were/are still wedded to a mindset that any criticism of the Clintons is an unfair attack, and it's coming from the right wing.

It's a permanent "circle the wagons" mentality.

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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. There's an extreme pack mentality here.
It's sad b/c it goes against many of the core values of liberalism.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. T sported the Pink Logo, synonymous with a racist, hate site.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 12:38 AM by Kittycat
And posted nothing but attacks, drive-by comments and flamebait. I have a really hard time understanding what drove T to that point, but whatever it was - it's probably best that they're gone since they couldn't stay away or above the muck.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
56. I feel like Tell truly got obsessed with the whole thing.
It's sad, because she seemed to be a genuinely nice person. She was always nice to me although her thing against Obama was a bit over the top.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Identity politics is rough....when our candidate is getting beat up, we're getting beat up
When our candidate is being treated unfairly, we're getting treated unfairly.

And when our candidate loses, we hate everyone that helped them lose.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. I don't see how identity politics fits into this
as "our candidate," seen through the lens of identity politics, suggests that a candidate is from the same group that we identify with; I suppose that many of Sen. Clinton's supporters have been male and that many of Sen. Obama's supporters are not biracial.

I think that you could just say that when a candidate we feel strongly is treated unfairly we feel as if we, ourselves, are being treated unfairly because we identify with the politician who promotes our ideals.
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writes3000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
46. True. But this being the first serious female and blac/biracial candidates...
Intensified the identification many people had with these people. The racism/sexism battles were apart of that in my opinion.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #46
57. I think you have a great point.
Maybe after so many years of bush* people have personified their politicians as heroes or villains and anyone who stands as a rival to their hero must be destroyed.

It does seem the media has helped in the personification of our politicians while ignoring their stances on issues.
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rove karl rove Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. give it some time
Unity can't happen overnight.
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. What happened to us?
What happened to them? One of those people you mentioned was a passionate advocate for Universal Health care. That cause flew right out the window when her candidate lost.

What happened to them?
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. People change
:shrug:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. Okay, upon re-reading I modify my reply.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 12:48 AM by apocalypsehow
Many of us still feel the anger of such unfair attacks on both us and our nominee, and it makes a bit quick on the trigger.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I think you need to reread my post before freaking out.
I agree they needed to be TS'd and said that in the OP. I'm questioning what was so different this time versus 2004 when there were some disrupters after the primaries were over, but not nearly so many.

Can we please stop with the all out attacks on everything that doesn't fit into the mold of what we want to hear and actually think about what changed this time?
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Ozarkdemocrat said that John McCain was better with women issues
Than OBAMA

OH, yeah that was Kool and supported women's rights
which she claimed she was so strongly for.

I saw crap from her from way back



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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Did you see it in 2001 when Ozarkdem joined DU?
Unless you were here you can't say she was a troll. I remember her posts and she was no troll, she was a advocate.

Whatever happened to her this time is sad because she once fought for the same things we do.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. you obviously weren't here for Jiacinto and Padraig. Some people live for that shit
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 12:56 AM by cryingshame
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. I wasn't?
They were definitely messed up but I think most of us knew about Jiacinto from the beginning. As for Padraig/Cuban_Liberal, he was probably a bit schizophrenic and finally lost his ability to juggle his identities.

But both of them were isolated examples who didn't freak out during the primaries because the candidate they didn't support was evil like I've seen happen here. It's an entirely different situation.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. I know when she joined...... but at the same time
I remember her posts. She had very few that reached the greatest page in a three star accolade..
If she ever had one

BTW... I've been here a long time too.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. Sorry, I'm not calling out your time here.
I'm saying that she was once a good poster who supported Dems. Now that's changed and I think we should try to understand why.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
59. I joined in Jan 2007, but the OzarkDem I knew
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 01:22 AM by Katzenkavalier
had such a hatred for Obama that it simply made it impossible to have a rational conversation with her.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
67. I agree. She was irrational as were so many supporters of both candidates.
And many in both camps have been rightly banned. But Ozarkdem wasn't always that way. Something in the process of this primary had a very negative effect on a lot of people. I was hoping people could try to look back and think about what went wrong.

Unfortunately, too many are just using this as another gravedancing thread. :(
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. You know what it is?
Many women saw Hillary and Barack as vindicators. As redeemers. They saw them like justice embodied. A Nation that has mistreated and relegated women and blacks since its conception is finally close to giving one of those groups a true say in American politics and a remarkable moment in history.

It was that deep for many people. Hillary losing the primary, for many, is spiritually dissapointing. It's like a slap in the face to women. A remainder that barriers are still there. They can't see it objectively, because they see it from the perspective of the oppressed individual struggling for equality.

I can understand that. It's a very powerful feeling.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Excellent analysis.
I think you're right, the personification of politics has created heroes and villains as I said in another post here. The question is did this happen because of our virulent hatred of the bush* years and what was done to this country, the media pushing candidates like sports teams, something else or a combination?

Then I think we have to ask ourselves what can be done to reduce the fallout from this kind of thing in future.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
80. In a way, Bush has something to do with it, and I believe this is it.
My dad told me when the primary season was about to start (before Iowa): "The only reason why Hillary Clinton and that guy Obama have a chance in hell to win the presidency is because George W. Bush sucks so much that Americans will ignore the fact that she's a woman and he's black- No Republican will win in 2008 after what GWB has done to this country and to the World, and both Clinton and Obama know it."

And, to a certain extent, he's right. I think both Clinton and Obama knew they had a bigger chance of winning this year because W has ruined the GOP. Many of their supporters knew it too. It had to be THIS year. This moment. Had Bush done a good job in the WH, chances of Hillary or Barack winning the presidency would have been much smaller.

For many Hillary supporters, there might not be a moment like this in many years... it was like an opening...
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #80
98. I can see that as being a part of it.
I think it goes deeper, though. It seems to me that political candidates have become the recipients of hero worship. When it all comes down to it, Obama has much the same policy agenda as Hillary did and they both followed Edwards' lead to get them, so why have so many become so devoted to one or the other?
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #74
82. maybe so, things have gotten worse in this country since 2004, i didn't think it
was possible but it's happened and people are stressed out, overworked, losing their homes and we're still in a never ending war. I totally appreciate the passion of supporters but when people start screaming i tune out just like in real life, you start yelling at me and the conversation ends and you can come back and talk to me when you've calmed down and can at least make some sense.

The other problem i think that added fuel to the fire was the various surrogates, some of them were just beyond awful, like am i hearing this, i thought we were democrats and we didn't do this to each other, we need to save it for the republican.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #82
99. Some of the surrogates were disgusting.
The attacks were vicious and left marks for the GE. Maybe some supporters took them to much to heart? :shrug:
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #47
65. I'm hiding the thread, so I can stay out trouble
I think you are trying to vent but the tread will turn into a vetting thread.

Stay cool Peace... you are OK with me.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
83. I will miss Ozarkdem and I cringe when I see her points misrepresented and twisted.
it's pathetic.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. The Admins & Mods seem to disagree with you. Perhaps you should take it up with them -
right after you reply to this with a personal attack. ( :eyes:)

"Pathetic," indeed.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #83
87. Nothing Ozarkdem said was misrepresented but it was twisted.
Her support turned to anger and her anger turned to hatred. I saw it happen. The question is why did that happen?

A few posters have made some very good points about the personification of our politics and identity politics. I would definitely welcome your opinion.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #83
103. Her points were not misrepresented. She repeated them numerous times.
Over and over and over again. If you didn't get it the first couple of times, you'd see her POV eventually.

I don't know what happened to her. I agree with the OP. She had some very insightful GD posts in the past. But something happened to her during this primary season. She said ridiculously favorable things about McSame. Her anger was palpable, all the freaking time.

She literally could not let go and process the fact that the nominee had been chosen and we were moving along towards the general election.

It is sad, and the mods gave her a LOT of leeway, likely due to the fact that she had been a long-time member of this site. Maybe she can come back after Obama is elected.
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hokies4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Agreed. OzarkDem had to go.
Everybody knew the pizza delivery boy was already on route to her house. :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
52. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. Tellurian was no dem. The others were but Tellurian was not.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. It hated Kerry too, if I recall nt
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Yep, but I bet you never threatened to vote for Bush and undermine Kerry in the 2004 elections.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. Did she do that?
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:20 AM
Original message
Tellurian had a "hillaryis44" badge on their sig line.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 01:40 AM by anonymous171
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
11. Political polarization can bring out the best and the worst in people.
If the saying is true that politics is war by any other means, then I would say that war tends to have a corrosive effect on a person's moral code the longer the person is placed on a battlefield.

It's been over a generation since the country was torn up over big issues like war and about a generation since the economy has been as bad as it currently is.

The times are hard, so it naturally seems that the level of frustration should be high, the anger high.

But the big difference between now and then is the atmosphere of powerlessness and lack of hope that now casts a shadow over everything. We pretty much are aware that Bush and others are likely guilty of war crimes, yet nobody is listening, and nothing is being done in the halls of power in the eyes of the people.

In 2006, people destroyed the Republican majority in both chambers of Congress for a reason, but now people are wondering why the course has not yet changed, why the river still remains dammed. Many are rightly pissed. The Democrats oversold their hand in that case. If they had been more honest, would they have won as many seats as they have? I would say probably not.

This isn't the flower power generation where there was hope for change. People realize that was a false hope when they saw fellow colleagues who didn't give a damn about America except for money gain positions of power, while the good were too often beaten down in the money race or were simply killed or imprisoned on trumped up charges or red-baited as communists and politically destroyed.

There is a lot of anger that builds up, and people are going to say, "When does the greed stop? When is it my turn at the wheel?"
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
12. Maybe if they hadn't gone apeshit, they'd still be around.
Both of them posted vile, inflammatory things and continued to attack Obama even after he became the presumptive nominee. They were never going to come around and would have continued slamming him if the mods hadn't stepped in.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
13. If Tellurian was a Democrat, I'm the fucking Queen of England
It's not exactly a secret that he was the owner of that Viagra pushing, extremely ANTI-Democratic "HillaryIS(not)44" shithole of a website. Good riddance to that trash.
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rove karl rove Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. oh, is that so?
He owned that site with all the pink everywhere? Tellurian?
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. So why did she spend over six years here?
I have trouble believing that she had this planned since 2002 just so she could flame out now.

Something happened to make her and others so hateful. Perhaps we should try to understand it instead of just attacking others as evil.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. My guess is perhaps Tellurian became too emotionally invested in Hillary
With Obama the presumptive nominee, I guess some people couldn't handle it.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #30
64. She owns Hillaryis44?
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #30
72. I think so, too.
It's just strange that this happened so strongly this season, and to people who were able to contain themselves in 2004.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
15. Me and about every other Obama supporter I saw went far out of our way to give the boosters
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 12:49 AM by apocalypsehow
their fair "space" after she conceded - what we got for that kind of effort was McCain talking points gussied up as "fair criticism" of the Democratic nominee as OP's.

It was they who refused to let it go - even after fair warning from the Admins.

Edit: got rid of unnecessary snark.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
16. I am sorry that they were banned
I was going to ask: what is wrong in criticizing the Obama campaign while pointing out that McCain was doing better?

I disagree with that conclusion, but the attacks on her, with the riotous call of "alert, alert, alert" caused me to ask the same thing: what has happened to us?

If we cannot honestly criticize the Obama campaign, if we cannot express a personal opinion about both campaigns than this is not a political forum; this is a mirror image of the freepers forum.

Plus, we know what happens at Groupthink - the real image of the world is being warped.

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Implying that Obama is not a citizen is not "contructive criticism"
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. I am sorry that that HAD to be banned.
They were definitely disruptive and not helping in any way with the stated goal of DemocraticUnderground.com. They were spreading lies about the presumptive Democratic nominee and refused to stop despite repeated chances to do so. They had to go.

As I'm sure you know, constructive criticism of Democrats is and always was allowed at DU. What they did was something different.

I'm not saying they were trolls, but they let their hatred consume them, as did so many others. Why?
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:58 AM
Original message
I don't spend a lot of time here but I did read the post that was first locked
expressing her personal opinion - with which I disagree - that McCain had a better approach to women. This was her opinion and I did not think she should have been banned.

But just for curiosity I searched for recent posts by her and she certainly was "in line" with DU:

Here is one example, responding to a post warning Democrats not to attack McCain's military career:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I agree, Dems can only lose by trying to attack him

He served honorably and suffered horribly, as did many other pilots who were shot down and spent years enduring torture in POW camps.

Any Obama supporters who wish to tarnish my party's reputation with those kind of tactics should reconsider.

Focus on the issues. Focus on things he's done wrong while in public office. But don't try to smear his military service, the backlash will be huge.

==========

I cannot see how such a comment can be considered destructive.

But, hey, apparently there are many who would love to see me banned, too, and perhaps, one day, they will get their wishes.

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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
102. You've pulled one comment from one subject that not everyone agrees on.
But that's beside the point. Defending Ozarkdem isn't going to bring her back because the vast majority of her posts were dedicated to attacking our nominee and that goes against the stated policy of DU.

So instead of philosophizing on the merits of her posts, can you offer any reason as to why she felt the need to tear down our candidate for president?
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
34. 'Groupthink' is insulting to me ....... you for one, usually
question nothing and have been an accessory to group think.
You usually have supported the talking points of the major media.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
54. That you cannot see what I question is your problem
I would often question most posts that automatically get those gazillions recommendations that show nothing but a mass hysteria. Especially the ones demanding (in CAPS) recommend this to... so and so.

Too many DUers do not bother to question, and to think for themselves. It is just one cheerleading and viewing the world in black and white: everyone who agrees with Bush is satan, everyone who hates Bush is a saint (just an example).

I've got news for you: the world is not black and right. Just because many DUers click and nod for the most outrageous posts does not make that opinion right.

Look at the hatred poured at Tim Russert, at Gerald Ford, at Ronald Reagan. Instead of analyzing their contributions: good and bad - they are treated like garbage.

I pity the people who hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to hurl hateful remarks just for the same of making outrageous comments. How angry and lonely they must be. And forget the fact that politics is the art of the compromise. I cannot wait for the hateful and contempts that will be hurled at Obama once he takes office because, well, he will have to compromise and because no one, not even Obama, can be everything to everyone.

I have no idea what the "talking point of the media" are. I read two newspapers every day, from the opposing political spectrum, plus more on online. I am open to listen to all opinions and to reach my own conclusions. You, apparently, are comfortable in reading only the un-Fox Fox that would justify your narrow view of the world. And then, when your hopes come crashing down, because you have failed to observe the real events around you, you wonder why this has happened.


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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Is the answer "everything"?
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
37. personal opinion and criticizing are not the issue...
it's the obvious disruption. It's one thing to make a valid point that needs to be discussed and then it's another to be an obvious flame-thrower just out to be a thorn in the attempts at winning. Very clear.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
18. There are some people that are just a bit too passionate about their primary candidate
Most of the disruption on this forum during the primaries came from trolls. Proud2bMurkin was an example of this. That said there were supporters on both sides who got a far too personally involved in the primary fights.

I spent a month of my life working my ass off on Obama's campaign and all that time I was psyching myself up to get behind Hillary Clinton if Obama should lose (which after New Hampshire seemed like more than a 50% chance). A lot of people on both sides weren't preparing themselves, however.

For Clinton supporters I think there's a sense that she has paid her dues to the Democratic Party and that Obama had no right after just two years in the Senate to come in and take the nomination. Of course the McGovern-Frasier Commission specifically designed the primary system so that anybody can just come onto the scene and get the nomination without paying their dues to the party establishment. I think this is a good thing. The Republicans put a high premium on seniority and it gives them candidates like Bob Dole and John McCain.

For Obama supporters it was all about the Iraq War Resolution which frankly is the most divisive thing that has happened to the Democratic Party in recent history. And that was by design. The resolution was put to a vote before the 2002 elections specifically so that Democrats would have to go on the record and either piss off a large segment of their base or piss off the majority of the country that was in support of the war at the time. Roughly half of the Democrats in the Senate voted YEA and half voted NAY. Paul Wellstone is a hero in the eyes of many for having the courage to vote NAY and then go back home and run for re-election against an extremely well funded Bush crony and many feel that the Democrats who didn't have the courage to do that are spineless wimps.

I think that day wasn't really one of the finest moments for many Democrats including Senator Clinton but I also know that people aren't perfect and politicians are politicians. Clinton would still be far superior to John McCain and anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional. I don't share the hatred of Clinton due to the IWR but I do see where it's coming from.

Anyway I wouldn't stress over it. OzarkDem and Tellurian aren't representative of any population group. They were very hardcore Hillary supporters who simply could not bring themselves to respect Obama. Their numbers are negligible as indicated by recent polling.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. pfffft.
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monomach Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. Racism's a bitch, ain't it?
Dems can be racists, too.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. That they can, and maybe they are racists.
But that may just be a bit too tidy of an explanation as it has the potential of claiming all Hillary supporters were racist and Obama supporters were sexist. Things just aren't that absolute.

There was just a lot more polarization between candidates this season and I'm wondering why.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
41. That's the only explanation I can think of. Obama was gracious
to HRC the entire time. So I just don't get where all the venom was coming from.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
60. they were not racists n/t
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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
91. I think part of that is he WAS gracious....
and certain of Sen. Clintons staff and surrogates ran a nasty campaign, (not to mention some of Sen. Clinton's mishaps with the truth).

I don't think some of her supporters want to admit failings of Sen. Clinton or her campaign, so they have to rationalize and project the negativity as coming from any source but Sen. Clinton. Be that Sen. Obama or the media or any other source.

The sad thing is seeing so many people who can't let go of that projected hate, and are desperately looking for ANYTHING now to justify it. The non-issue about Sen. Obama's birth certificate. The PUMA crowd. A lot of it is people who cannot admit their person's failings, and need to project that hate and justification still. It's not "Sen. Clinton ran a bad or negative campaign", it HAS to be it was stolen though no fault of her own in order to rationalize their internal feelings.

Or else admit the person they turned into the "Goddess of Peace" and "Dear Hillary" has feet of clay and is human after all.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
25. I am sorry, but I lost too many friends here in 2003, who NEVER...
wrote stuff like they did.

Never.

They are still gone. For a long time it was just me
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
27. Democrats have been guilty of fucked up stuff too, you know.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 12:53 AM by FrenchieCat
They knew full well the rules.

They just didn't want to or could not adhere to them.

That sounds like a personal problem to me.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
28. OzarkDem is gone?
I missed that one.

IBTL
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well, I wouldn't say I've been missing it Bob...
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #28
105. I missed it too but can't say I'm surprised
she was very anti-Obama and that continued even after he got the nomination. :yoiks:
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
32. This Obama supporter would be chanting Hillary 08. TOo much on the line to hold grudges.
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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
35. Exactly why I consider myself a liberal
As this election season has shown me there really is a difference between the two.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
45. Good question. nt
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
48. The few that were Democrats
...lost their ever-loving minds and were actively working to undermine the Democratic nominee. EOM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
51. this primary brought out some ugly things in people i never would have expected.
one of them used to post in gd and i liked their threads, they came in here and it was like a different person. One of them that got banned yesterday actually posts at a freeper board and it sure looks like she's a McCain supporter, she is no democrat.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
58. I'm Still Here
All I'm gonna say.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
62. "What caused good Democrats to..." Childishness and stupidity, that's what
We're not immune to these perennial defects.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
63. Tellurian was no friend of the Democrats
He operated Hillaryis44 and did everything possible to disrupt this place.

He deserved the pizza.

Who else do you miss?

I sort of resent the idea that "something has happened to us." Something happened but is wasn't me. The fact is, that Ozarkdem posted this OP:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Maybe that was a clue?

She ran off the track like a runaway train.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. Tellurian is a man or a woman?
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #69
76. His real name is Alex Rodiguez
But not THIS one......

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
66. There were plenty of people who got TS'd after the last primary.
So much so that there were widespread claims of a "purge", and there are spinoff sites where they still vent their bitterness. I think it's just part and parcel of a bitterly partisan primary process. If the bitterness seems worse this time, it's probably just because it went on for so bloody long compared with last time.

I know a lot of people want to see something uniquely deep and sinister about this primary, but I just don't see it myself.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. I know the site you're talking about and it wasn't the same.
The vast majority of the people you're talking about were Dean supporters who joined DU just to push for him. They had no other effective role in being here so when he dropped out they just went wild. And please don't think I just dislike Dean supporters, I was one and still am. If he ran for president I can't think of anyone I'd support more strongly.

Anyway, I'm talking about people who have been here for many years, not just "supporters" who joined up with one purpose.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Those Hillary supporters left by their own choice.
I don't see how anybody else can be held responsible for the actions that got them tombstoned. I really think that they just got obsessively caught up in the extremely bitter partisanship of this primary campaign. I'd be willing to bet that at least *some* of the Dean supporters from last time had also been long time members.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #77
86. I'm not trying to say that they weren't responsible for their own actions.
I'm trying to discuss what happened to make this such a divisive primary.

2004 was divisive but nothing like this, at least not at DU.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #86
93. I think it was probably mostly the length and how close it was.
I think that's probably a recipe for this kind of bitter polarization.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
68. In before the
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
70. A love for our country combined with the squeeze which daily tightens.
Look to the passionate supporters of the republican party and you will again see this same answer. For some, realizing the delusion is a pill they can never swallow. This is not like buying a Yugo against the advice of those who knew better only to find out that the car was indeed a piece of junk. This is about a deep feeling that America is worth fighting for and an equally deep feeling that WE are on the right side of the fight.

A great many republicans feel this way. They know in their hearts that America and America's democracy is worth fighting for. Nationalism is a powerful force indeed. They feel the squeeze the same way we do! Just because they support those with an R after their name doesn't give them a dollar off at the gas pumps for instance.... it doesn't ease the pain of the loss of a loved one in combat over in the middle east either. I found that thinking of my fellow Americans as just that: my FELLOW Americans, it becomes easier to debate with them. We fight on the same side afterall and for the same things. We just have differing views on how to get there and on who has the best plans. Thinking this way in every case is hard to do but when it occurs to me to do so, it DOES help.

Many of our chums who were TSed believed in their hearts that they fought the good fight...they may never come around...then again they may figure stuff out if a President Obama fulfills most of our hopes and dreams. Doing that will be almost impossible of course, because no one person can possibly fulfill MOST of our hopes and dreams. Then there is a chance that we were wrong all along as well. There is a chance that President Obama will lose to Senator mCain, (I doubt this of course), there is a chance that President Obama will be a dud, (again I doubt it). That is something only time will tell.

I hope that we will regain some of our TSd chums down the road a bit. FWIW, a few DUers fought hard to save some of our chums too, sometimes they were successful. Personally I would have missed BigBearJohn and MaddyMcall-(sp?-lass with that God-awful grinning toad). I am glad that they survived the trip...there are others too. Even with our losses these were victories. This in no way diminishes our losses, it is good that you note their passing. I hope my rant has something usful.
recommended
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
75. Ignore list was/is my best friend, esp. during primaries n/t
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
78. It was a very close primary race, and too many Obama supporters showed too much contempt for HRC and
Bill Clinton, and anyone else not already supporting Obama. It became okay here for Obama supporters to echo every bit of freeper slime against the Clintons. I am not at all surprised that the viciousness of many of the messages targeting HRC and her supporters led to that much anger in response. I must've seen at least several dozen messges here suggesting Obama would have to fear for his life if HRC was on the ticket. Then there was the charming message calling HRC's supporters "vagina voters for Hillary" and all the posts calling her "Hilldabeast" and saying she looked like an "insane clown." And the topic with a subject line calling her a "lying piece of shit in a pantsuit."

It was like wading through a cesspool. And I did not see anything comparably vile from the Clinton supporters here, in their criticisms of Obama and his supporters.

We saw some very contemptible anti-Obama messages here from trolls with low post counts. But we didn't see trolls invading DU to post vicious anti-Clinton messages because, sadly, all too many of the Obama supporters here were doing that themselves. I'll never forget the day I tried alerting the mods to various "Hillary would kill Obama" idiocies on the board, before finally realizing there were too many to deal with individually. I finally posted a topic saying those stupid messages had to stop, only to find some Obama supporters here arguing with insane seriousness that yes, a Democratic senator and former First Lady was really homicidal.

DU has never seemed crazier.

It's amazing there isn't more anger from Clinton's supporters. But I have to draw an indelible line between Obama himself and his dumbest supporters here, or I'd never be able to support him. I know he has spoken up asking his supporters to be nice to Clinton's supporters, though all too many of them ignored him. And by doing so, they're dividing a party that really will have to be unified to win in November.

With supporters like that, Obama doesn't need enemies. His own supporters are turning many of Clinton's supporters against him. I wish they'd realize that when they post vicious messages attacking Clinton and her supporters, they're hurting his chances of winning in November. I have never seen any group of Dems who seemed so determined to divide the party.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. That's an incredibly one-sided argument.
It's not all Obama supporters' fault and it's not all Hillary supporters' fault. There is something deeper at work here and I'm trying to get to a serious discussion of what it is.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. You asked what created the anger. I told you. I agree with you that if
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 01:52 AM by highplainsdem
Clinton had won the primary race, there would have been a lot of anger from Obama supporters unable to accept that. It was a very close primary race, and that intensified the feelings.

But I am not going to pretend that the nastiest messages were evenly divided.

Please tell me what you saw posted here, as an attack on Obama and his supporters by longtime DU members, that compares with Obama supporters suggesting HRC would have Obama killed if she was his running mate. Or that compares with calling her female supporters "vagina voters for Hillary." Or with calling her "Hilldabeast."
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #88
101. BenDavid's constant racially charged posts were pretty bad as were Tellurian's.
And there were so many, many more. As an Edwards supporter maybe I was able to see that the attacks were plentiful coming from both directions. There were certainly more Obama supporters attacking but the Hillary supporters seemed to make up for it in vitriol.

But that still begs the point of why did this happen so strongly this time? What turned good DUers into such hateful posters?
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. As someone who wished Gore would have run, and whose first choice of those who ran had been Edwards,
and who has many years' experience with political forums online, I still think the worst attacks were made by Obama supporters. (Having to reply to someone who just said that both Bill and Hillary are "creatures from the black lagoon" didn't change that impression.)

As for what caused the polarization in general:

It was a close race. Obama and Clinton are pretty close on the issues. And this was a historic race in terms of what it meant for both the first very successful female presidential candidate and the first very successful AA or biracial candidate.

And supporters were intemperate in their wording online.

Such as the "creatures from the black lagoon" wording I responded to tonight, used by an Obama supporter to describe Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Again, I didn't see anything comparably nasty from Clinton supporters.
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meowomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #81
94. Not everyone is screwed as tightly
Some things just set other people off. I was on the fence about Hillary until I started seeing the campaign monster come out. Barack Obama was so cool under the pressure that if you asked me, she just handed him the election by the racial undertone of the Clinton Campaign. Heated things were said and some people took it to mean that it was personal. Not everyone can keep it civil.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
79. If *I* can avoid being TS'd, then there's no excuse for anybody getting pizza.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #79
84. for real.
:thumbsup:
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #79
104. Ne'er a truer word....
:rofl:

You definitely have a way with words, Bloo. I often think of you as a sculptor with a sledgehammer. You make your message clear but the shards go everywhere. :)
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
89. What happened? I think this cycle produced a little expressed, copped to, or understood...
appreciation for RW tactics on what is thought or claimed here and elsewhere to be the LW. For instance, I cringe x( when Obama is portrayed as the new, improved great delegater. Reagan was touted the last Great Delegater, with bush as a small 'd' delegater that has delegated himself so far off the map so as to be easily seen as not merely aloof; but void of mind and emotion. I don't want another delegater. I want my president involved. The kick-back demeanor of the delegater with shoes up on the table, or his hand forever to his ear, "What!? Sorry! Can't quite hear you! HELICOPTER!! Heh-heh!" only seems a utopian goal. The world is a more dangerous place these days. Now will I be TS'd for saying such as thing? Time will tell, or should I say: regardless...

There are several variations of "Et tu, Obama" threads continuing to receive rank hive, group-think, swarm treatments and externalized pathologies. It would seem I'm not able to make the kinds of changes that would stop any of it; but to suggest that reinforcing such group-think enables some within that hive mentality to presume they have carte blanche to continue it's more negative characteristics. Up to and including intolerance queue the Alert Feature.

Yes, many even vile posts fly beneath the rules radar; but if "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet", then any ditto-head is still able to smell like ass.

Exit the people we care less for stage right. And to some, not all but some of them I say, "Adios!"
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
90. IMHO, this was a historic primary ... a Black American and a Woman
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 02:04 AM by akbacchus_BC
ended up on the ticket for the Democratic nomination. Guess supporters on both sides were cheering their candidates and the Primaries allowed all Americans to vote, which I thought was great. Senator Clinton really toughened up Senator Obama in the long run by her not quitting. She is a fighter and I strongly believe that when the swiftboating starts against Senator Obama, he will fight as hard as she did, albeit with her support. However, it is sad that some Dems are not able to now support the presumptive Democratic nominee. Feelings having been running high for the past few months and me being an outsider, most of Senator Obama's supporters would have supported Senator Clinton if she were the nominee.

As far as I can see, some of Senator Clinton's supporters are not able to support Barack Obama and even though some of Senator Clinton's supporters were long standing members on here, some of them blatantly said they will support McCain. After the Primaries, quite a few of Senator Clinton's supporters got tombstoned, which is a pity. We need all Dems to vote for the presumptive nominee to ensure America takes its rightful place as a world leader.

Just my opinion, and I hope come November, most Dems will vote for the Democratic nominee, otherwise, the world would be reeling if McCain gets nominated. Keep your eyes on the Goal. Us Canadians want Obama or even if it were Senator Clinton, to be in the White House. Eight years of Bush is enough.

Peace

Edited to add if McCain gets selected to the White House, then world is doomed for another four years.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
92. They aren't here so I'll say it for them. They didn't turn against their values.
And many would ask the same question of you....

"What happened this time that caused all this hostility and venom? What has caused good Democrats to turn against their own values?"
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Turning the question back on me doesn't answer the question at hand.
So you dislike me and what I've posted, fine. That doesn't mean the question doesn't need to be asked so that perhaps we can work toward not letting this happen again.
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monomach Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. They didn't turn against their values?
Like hating men and black folks?

They certainly upheld those values...
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. Guess they did not turn on their values but who would have thought
some real Dems would turn against the Presumptive Nominee on the Dem side?
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
107. Locking.
This thread has become an extraordinarily divisive flamefest.

Heidi,
DU Moderator
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