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DU'ers Are STILL Smearing Wes Clark With GOP Lies. How Pathetic

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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:25 PM
Original message
DU'ers Are STILL Smearing Wes Clark With GOP Lies. How Pathetic
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 03:32 PM by cryingshame
I am stunned DU'ers are once again repeating the bullshit many of us debunked ad naseum last Democratic Primary.

A small number of uninformed people here, for whatever reason, insist on repeating the smears even after they've been set straight.

Wes Clark did NOT:

almost start WW III
enable Waco (that was Boykin, btw)
cause Haitian man-tits

The man worked his ass off trying to get Democrats across the country elected for the last 4 years. He went into the lions den of FOX News and represented the LIBERAL side to foreign policy. Have some respect and get a clue.

Maybe I should spend time going back through DU archives where so many of us did the work countering the smears... but frankly don't have it in me. WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO?
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. don't forget
he's still a Republican. :eyes: :eyes:
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for that...I too am getting sick and tired of the re-hashing of Reich-Wing lies....
...
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Well, then, who do I blame for my
Haitian man-tits??
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. its amazing isn't it? makes me sick.
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Are you sure they are not part of Rush's army
in Operation Chaos?

Sounds like something a troll would do. Hmm.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Have they stopped the Crimes Against Humanity bit?
:D
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wes Clark is an amazing person,
people who smear him are truly ignorant. If only they could do their homework before spreading that garbage, but i guess that's too much to ask of narrow-minded opinionated idiots.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. The jerky who was doing that earlier got a Pizza Delivery.
;-)
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
55. There's more than one
and one of the loudest still hasn't received her pizza.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
61. Oh but there is one that really needs to go. Obvious troll... and apparently a river politician. ;)
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. man-tits
You sure he's not to blame for those?

:rofl:
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wes Clark is not a GOPer. That is an outrageous claim. He is a great
citizen of the USA and the world. I'd love to see him the VP if it is not a woman.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Clark became a Dem because the GOP rejected him. He was GOP....
by affiliation his entire life until he left the military (after he LOST his command in Kosovo). In fact, he smooched major Bush ass trying to get the GOP to take him. When they rejected him (and who wouldn't? with all of his baggage!) Clark flipped (as he does so often) and became Dem so he could run for president.

Posts about this are at:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/PoliticalAmazon
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. You really don't belong here
it's more obvious with each passing day.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
62. Yep
and yep.

And with each passing day, I'm more surprised... well, you know.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
64. Sure likes to post A LOT in a few short months. Of course, it's always to bash Democrats.
Actually, I'm pretty surprised it's being tolerated for so long.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. My flirted with the darkside prior to 2004
(watched FOX, listened to rush etc.) and of all the bad info he got during that time, the Wes Clark smears are the only ones he still clings to, do you have any links that would help me disabuse him of this nonsense and "Stop the Insanity" once and for all?

Thanks;)
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Here
A great Clark myth debunking site assembled by a fervent current Obama supporter (FrenchieCat):
http://rapidfire-silverbullets.com/

And have him actually look at the issues that Clark ran on in 2004. They were incredibly progressive, which is why the Righ was so afraid of a Liberal General taking on Bush during a time of war. The old Clark 2004 site is archived:
http://www.clark04.com/index.html
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. thanks, Tom
i started writing a response to someone who had replied to my post, then realized it was a waste of time. That person has already made up his mind and wasn't interested in the facts and understanding the conditions that Clark was operating under... if that person cares enough to learn the truth about Clark, he can read that link you provided.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. And one of the biggest offenders has already made her
Edited on Mon Jun-16-08 08:50 PM by Clark2008
way into the thread.

This person should stop researching right-wing sites - or sites that are so left-wing, they've come around full circle and act right-wing - and start paying attention to reason, to the actions of the man and to his message.

Rejected from the GOP Party. :rofl:
Nearly started WWIII. :rofl:
Hatian Man-Tits!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I smell VP when this type of rhetoric returns!

P.S. To be clear, I wasn't speaking of you, shireen.
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
42. Thank You...
if Clark gets the VP spot, these links might actually be more useful (not to mention cheaper) than the couples counseling we might otherwise need;)
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ripple effect....
from this last primary. Now, he's a good guy again. Probably the same with Joe Wilson and a few others. Thanks.
quickesst
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Folks here are suckers for right-wing lies. LOVE Clark!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Yes, I do...
sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Hell, Eleanor Roosevelt supported the bombing of 'civilians'. War's ugly and unfair.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Blah de blah de blah blah blah. We got it, on to the next, please.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Falling on deaf ears. n/t
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Getting tired of chasing down Clark threads?
You hobby of post crap on Clark getting in the way of you having a life?
Why don't you just give it up.
The world won't stop if a positive thread on a great Democrat goes without your spam.

Scheesh!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Who was president when he "lost his command"?
Was it Big Dog??

If it was, why was he onstage with Hill??
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
63. SPAMMING IS ALL YOU DO. What is it you exactly stand FOR?
Just here to promote your sucky website no doubt.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. Most of it is simply trolls.....the rest are either misinformed or hate the military in general
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. I can't believe people still fall back on the wacky "man tits" thing.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. I googled Haitian man tits. Your entry was number one on the list.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. DU'ers have showed a level of ugly this election cycle that is beyond
pathetic.

They disgrace the party gleefully.


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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. There you go again, wagging the finger at DUers again. I see a pattern.
NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE, elected you Sunday school teacher, keeper of the public morals or Mother Superior. Your finger wagging act is getting OLD!
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. Get Over it. Clark will not be the VP
There are a lot of issues about why Clark left EUCOM before doing a four year tour and the fact that Gen. Hugh Shelton, his boss at the time, said:

"the reason he (Clark) came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark

That is just doing five minutes of research on Wiki.

Wes Clark is a very smart man and a very good leader but the issues surrounding his departure from EUCOM are baggage that Obama doesn't need. This baggage is red meat to the rethugs and their MSM enablers.

Clark can still be part of the Obama administration but just not VP.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. And Hugh Shelton, who made those ridiculous claims, had
to admit to the judge hearing the Milosevic trial that there was no truth in what he'd said on television (that quote) and that it was all politics.

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I have heard other people on DU say that Shelton later took back his remarks, but could not produce
a link.

If you have one please provide it.

However, it still does not answer the question "Why did Clark not serve a full term as Combatant Commander at EUCOM?"

FYI, the reason given about "Gen. Ralston needed a billet" is not a reason you move another general out of one of the top three spots early.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. Because you can longer find one
However, Wes Clark Jr. is a member of this board and he can verify it.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. I'm sorry but that doesn't cut it.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 07:38 AM by wmbrew0206
If Gen. Shelton retracted his remarks about Clark it would have been covered by the press.

In your previous post your refer to Gen Shelton's testimony before a judge during the Milosevic trial. If this is true, there must be a transcript of his testimony that proves this.

Please don't misunderstand me, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Clark and think he would be great as a SecState.

However, I have repeatedly asked for proof that Gen. Shelton retracted his remarks about Clark and all I have been given is "He did but I can't provide proof." What I have been provided so far is "someone on the internet told me" which doesn't cut it.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. The press DID NOT cover it - ever.
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 11:27 AM by Clark2008
Sorry, but they didn't cover it because they were banned from the Milosevic hearing. You can certainly Google that part.

Wes Jr. told it second-hand at a meeting and the video of that meeting is no longer available (or at least it's not following a quick search).

I'm sorry you don't want to believe me, but it's the truth. There is no open transcript because the media was BARRED from testimony. Everything they reported was second-hand.

P.S. Here's an article about banned press coverage specifically relating to Clark's testimony: http://www.rcfp.org/news/mag/28-1/bct-highprof.html

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. I don't want this to turn into a p*ssing match so
we'll just have to agree that there is no evidence in writing that Gen. Shelton retracted his statement.

I'm sorry, but I don't think Wes Jr can be considered a non-bias source for Gen. Shelton's retraction.

This all comes back to why Clark won't be Obama's VP candidate. The right has the fact that Clark "came out of Europe early" (ie fired in military speak) and Gen Shelton made a very damaging comment about him and we don't have any proof of a retraction of that comment, other than the word of Clark's son.

This is red meat for the republican's mud slinging campaign tactics.

We can get all the positives that Clark brings to the ticket with Tony Zini without any of the baggage of Clark's departure from EUCOM.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
46. Touché Clark2008, Tou F'n shé! (nt)
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. Once again, please provide a link that shows Gen Shelton's retraction.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. I have to smile at all those smears.
It simply means he's on the very, very short list for VP or Sec. of State.

:)
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I think he would be a great SecState
I just don't think that his as EUCOM CC would be an issue during the campaign.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
38. I am 100% for Wes Clark for the duration of this campaign
No amount of bullshit will dissuade me. Wes Clark is the man for this moment in history. More so than Obama, in my opinion.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. Sad ass moles!
Debunking all poo being flung right here!

http://rapidfire-silverbullets.com/
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. I'm sorry but your link does not answer any questions about
Clark's early exit from his EUCOM command tour.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Yes it does.......
You just don't know how to get around on a website, obviously.

Here's some help:
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/nato_commander_19972000/

The 2nd article on that page is called, "The Early Departure". Doh.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Thanks for pointing out the article, but it still doesn't resolve anything
The website only article relies on "three former Clinton aides" for the its thesis. It never names them and does not provide an other links or footnotes to support its thesis.

I'd say the article actually makes things worse because you have SecDef Cohen quoted as saying Clark was basically fired. Here is the quote:"there was friction between General Clark and myself. And, frankly, I think it would be inappropriate for me to comment on his political aspirations. I made a judgment during the time that he was serving as head of NATO, SACEUR. And I felt that the ax, as such, when it fell, spoke for itself."
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
57. Well since it was during the Clinton administration and
Clinton gave him the Medal of Freedom after the fact.......guess that the former Clinton Aides were correct in their assessements.

Plus, there are more articles at the site dealing with the issue.

It just appears that some are not interested in the truth if it clashes with their adversarial version based on what they have pulled out of their asses, i.e., lies told during Wes Clark's run....who by the way is not running for anything anyways.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. I keep asking for links and people quoted on the record and no one can produce it
Who were the aides and why would they not go on record?


This whole thread has been about whether Clark would be a good VP.

I don't think he would be because SecDef Cohen and Gen Shelton ended his tour early and that would be red meat for the republican slime machine.


Your statement that the article is accurate because Clark received a Medal of Freedom is not sufficient. Yes, Clinton gave him the Medal of Freedom, a civilian award. Clinton could have given him an end of tour Military Award but didn't. Why not?


It was rumored the reason Shelton and Cohen sent Clark home early is because he would do an end run around them when he got orders he didn't like and go straight to Clinton. Clinton would give him what he wanted and over rule Cohen and Shelton.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. Clinton gave Clark a civilian award, because Clark was by then a civilian....doh.
Clark's line of command was directly to Bill Clinton during Kosovo, as he was the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO during the war, not a commander of simply the U.S. Army.

Anyone knows that it was in Clark's capacity as NATO Chief that he was fighting that War (thereby answerable to the heads of state of NATO countries)....not as a 4 Star General (which is responsive to the Pentagon Chiefs).

Plus, note that it is the Republicans who defended Wes Clark when he was "retired" early.


Wes Clark has no "problem" with the military. He had a problem with two Military personnel (Sec. Cohen and Gen. Shelton....both whom resented the fact that as NATO Allied Commander, Clark called the shots in the NATO Kosovo intervention and that he reported to them as a 4 star General, but Reported directly to Bill Clinton as NATO Supreme Allied Commander).

Wes Clark was retired early, something which was done behind his and Bill Clinton's back by Cohen and Shelton because he did what was right. Their problem is that he had insisted that high altitude bombing, their plan, wouldn't get the job done that was needed beyond killing more civilians than were required. He called for low flying Apache helicopters and boots on the ground (as his motto was "If it ain't worth dying for, it ain't worth fighting for). Cohen and Shelton didn't want to do this because they were afraid of U.S. Casualties, and after Somalia, didn't want to "chance" anything of that and therefore were for dropping bombs from high up. It is, however, a known fact that what got Molosovic to retreat was Clark's threat of boots on the ground and The apaches....not the gradual bombing plan. The civilian casualty numbers for Kosovo hover around 500. It could have been a lessor number had it not been for Shelton and Cohen.

Clark was right and did too good a job, and so as far as Cohen and Shelton were concerned....he had to go!

Here's news articles from the era as my back up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A51403-2000May1¬Found=true ("The Unappreciated General" --5/2/00)
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure3.htm (Reprint of WAPO's Dana Priest article 8/4/99 - "Clark's Exit Was Leaked Deliberately")
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure.htm (Reprint of "Washington's Long Knives" 8/03/99)
http://www.texasforclark.com/departure4.htm (Why Wesley Clark Got the Ax at NATO - 8/6/99)

http://www.slate.com/id/2089014/ (The Shelton Smear)
More.... http://www.texasforclark.com/departure3.htm -

But in terms of the military, the other Generals have no problems with him.


Retired General Walter Kross, a former four-star Air Force general under whom Clark served on the staff of the Joint Chiefs in the mid-1990s. For two years Kross worked with Clark from 6:00 in the morning until 9:00 at night six days a week, and sometimes on Sundays. He disagrees strongly with Shelton and Cohen about Clark's abilities and character. When I asked him why Clark was disliked by some military officers, Kross replied,

"He's not the army general officer from central casting. He's the extra-ordinary senior officer who can do extra-ordinary work on the entire range of challenges senior officers have to face—including Kosovo and the Dayton Accords, on which he worked himself into exhaustion. No army officer from central casting can do that work, but Wes did. "
He added, "Some senior officers misinterpret drive, energy, and enthusiasm for overambition...he is outside the mold and that makes some other officers uncomfortable."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795



CLARK WAS NOT CLINTON'S GENERAL.
Falsely Accused
by Spencer Ackerman

Unlike most officers who served in Vietnam, Clark came home from the jungles convinced of the importance of defending U.S. values with force. As he writes in his memoir, Waging Modern War, "One of life's greatest gifts, I've found, is the opportunity to fight for what's right." He adds, "There is so much more to be done." Throughout the '90s, he bridled at U.S. inaction, particularly in Rwanda, where rampaging Hutu militiamen murdered 800,000 Tutsi in 100 days. The response from Washington was worse than nothing: Secretary of State Warren Christopher urged a "full, orderly withdrawal" of U.N. peacekeepers, lest the United States be called upon to relieve the rump force, a prospect the Pentagon adamantly opposed. Clark, then Shalikashvili's policy director, was ashamed. He later observed to author Samantha Power, "The Pentagon is always going to be the last to want to intervene." In Waging Modern War, Clark implies that the military dishonored itself "when we stood by as nearly a million Africans were hacked to death."

A year later, Clark risked his career to confront the uniformed reluctance to use force in defense of human rights. As Shalikashvili's envoy in the Balkans, he directly crossed Admiral Leighton Smith, the four-star commander of Mediterranean nato forces. Nato began bombing Bosnian Serb positions in late August 1995 in order to force an end to a genocidal campaign controlled by Serbian dictator Milosevic. Although nato demanded a full Serb withdrawal from the besieged city of Sarajevo, Smith urged that a brief bombing pause in early September be extended indefinitely, since, as he explained to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, he thought the United States had no business intervening. But Clark, then still a three-star, insisted in a heated telephone call that the bombing should continue as planned. As Holbrooke writes in To End A War, "I could tell from the noises emanating from Clark's cell phone that he was being scolded by a very angry, very senior American naval commander." Smith--who quickly alerted his superiors to Clark's insolence--had the inclinations of nato policymakers on his side; after all, heads of state had neglected Bosnia as long as was politically tolerable. But Clark was right, and he won: The bombing resumed and caused the Bosnian Serbs to withdraw from Sarajevo within two weeks of Clark's clash with Smith. That November, the warring parties met at Dayton to negotiate a peace accord. Shalikashvili soon afterward awarded Clark his fourth star--despite ferocious resistance from the Army, which would have preferred his retirement.

But it was as nato commander that Clark took his biggest gamble--against practically the entire Pentagon--and triumphed. By early 1999, Milosevic's army was murdering Albanian civilians in the Serbian province of Kosovo, despite a U.N. Security Council resolution and nato threats to bomb. Negotiations at Rambouillet, France, had failed. With nato's credibility on the line and Kosovar lives in jeopardy, Clark prepared to transform diplomacy backed by the threat of force into diplomacy backed by its use. But Clark's plans were vastly different from those favored by his Pentagon colleagues, who advocated the Powell Doctrine's dictate of overwhelming force in pursuit of a specific goal. Instead, Clark merged military and diplomatic action into a hybrid--as the bombing intensified, so did nato's demands, moving from a return to negotiations to halting the ensuing ethnic cleansing to a final settlement of Kosovo's political status. It was an incremental war with incremental objectives, brazenly flouting the Powell Doctrine.

Clark's Pentagon superiors were appalled. During both the buildup and the campaign itself, the military--and, subsequently, the White House--hobbled the nato commander. In December 1998, Clark requested that the U.S. Army prepare for an impending war. Chief of Staff Dennis Reimer, who had fought nearly all of Clark's high-profile promotions, bluntly responded, "But we don't want to fight there." The next month, the service chiefs met and decided to undercut the war effort by emphasizing the possibility of bloody conflict--a prospect they knew would frighten Clinton. As a senior military official explained to The Washington Post, "I don't think anybody felt like there had been a compelling argument made that all of this was in our national interest." Although the chiefs argued that sanctions alone might bring Milosevic to heel, they would not even credibly threaten the use of force needed for their success: In March, on the eve of the war, the Pentagon ordered the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt out of the Adriatic, sending a message of vacillation during Clark's preparations.

But, if the Pentagon acted to stall the campaign, at least its position on the war was clear. The same could not be said of the Clinton White House. In March, nato opened its offensive against Milosevic. But the night the bombing began, Clinton issued a critical statement: "I do not intend to put our troops in Kosovo to fight a war." This position reflected the advice of Defense Secretary Cohen and Joint Chiefs Chairman Shelton, but it confounded Clark. The war was predicated on nato's ability to gradually increase the pressure on Milosevic, but, without at least the plausible threat of an invasion, nato leverage was crippled. Clark confided to British Prime Minister Tony Blair, "I can't guarantee with air power alone." Behind the scenes, he began to lobby for a 175,000-troop invasion of Kosovo, and, as the bombing dragged on through April, the White House realized that ruling out ground troops had hamstrung the campaign. Yet Clark could not even get the White House to decide when to decide if an invasion would go forward. In mid-May, national security adviser Sandy Berger asked him, "How long can we defer a decision, Wes?" When Clark responded that operational planning had to begin on June 1, Berger asked, "Can you push that date back a couple of weeks, to, let's say, 15 June?" By that time--thanks to intensified bombing, increased nato and Russian diplomacy, and word of a prospective invasion--Milosevic had capitulated.



But not even victory stopped the Clinton administration's intransigence. After Milosevic began to withdraw from Kosovo in early June, Russian troops began moving from their Bosnian positions toward the strategically important Pristina airfield. Clark worried that the Russians would occupy a portion of Kosovo independently of nato and allow Serb atrocities to continue, as they had in Bosnia. He arranged with Washington to quickly take the airfield under the pretext of coordinating communication and information flow with the arriving Russians. But, after Moscow assured Washington that its troops would not enter Kosovo on their own, Shelton told Clark to stand down. Hours later, however, Russian soldiers began to land in Pristina in violation of their pledge. Clark felt his hand had been forced and ordered three-star British General Michael Jackson to have his troops block Pristina's runways. But Jackson thought the move might spark a firefight with the Russians and refused, famously telling the nato commander, "Sir, I'm not starting World War III for you." Instead, Jackson suggested taking the roads near the field. Clark's command to seize the airfield has been recently cited as evidence of his overaggressiveness (hardly a Clintonian trait). But, although Jackson's quote was memorable, in essence the British general's plan differed with Clark's by only a few stretches of road. And it worked. In the end, nato took the roads, and there was no confrontation. Of course, had the Clinton administration followed Clark's advice to take the airfields in the first place, the incident might well have been avoided altogether.

Clark's tactical and strategic wisdom went unappreciated inside the Beltway. He was rewarded for his win in Kosovo by a terse call from Shelton the following month informing him that his nato assignment would end early. (According to Waging Modern War, Shelton would not even show Clark the courtesy of extending the phone call a few minutes to work out a face-saving exit.) Clinton privately told Clark, "I had nothing to do with it." Indeed, Clinton had very little to do with practically everything about Clark--including Clark's victory--while generals who shared the president's disinterest in the mission stymied a successful commander. Yet Clark has never disparaged Clinton's efforts to take full credit for winning the war--most recently, during the former president's triumphant trip to Kosovo last week. How un-Clintonian.

Spencer Ackerman is an associate editor at The New Republic.
New Republic 10/6/03 https://ssl.tnr.com/p/docsub.mhtml?i=20031006&s=ackerman100603



General Colin Powell on CNN - 9/28/03: "I've known Wes Clark for 20 years. He's one of the most gifted soldiers that I have ever had work for me. And beyond that, I really feel it's appropriate for me to recuse myself from any further comment now that he is a political candidate."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0309/28/le.00.html


Major General George Pickett on the whispers...."No big surprise, since he graduated first in his class from West Point , which puts him in the super-smart set with Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur and Maxwell Taylor."
'All this book leanin' is unbecoming for an officer. The yankees got all the smart ones, and look where it got them."
http://www.command-post.org/oped/2_archives/008539.html

4 Star General McCaffrey:
"(He-Clark) is probably the most intelligent officer I ever served with," McCaffrey said. "(He has) great integrity, sound judgment and great kindness in dealing with people. He is a public servant of exceptional character and skill."


Admiral John Dalton, Former Secretary of the Navy, in a 2004 OP Ed--
"Wesley Clark is uniquely qualified to lead the nation - Today, America faces two fundamental challenges at home and abroad: keeping our country safe in a dangerous world, and restoring fiscal responsibility and prosperity for the working families of our nation. We must choose a President with experience and depth both for the domestic economy and the international arena. "

Maj. General Robert Scales responding to Shelton's insinuation while being interviewed by Fox News' Britt Hume: "Well, first of all, they are whispered. You know, Brit, Wes Clark led a 19-nation coalition, he fought a war and he won it. If you are a general in war and you have to command such a disparate organization, there are times when you have got to be hard and you've got to be decisive. I mean no one complains about Jack Welch (search) running the best…being the best CEO in the country and he was tough. But I've known Wes for 40 years; he's also a passionate, committed, empathetic individual."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97689,00.html

General Schwarkopf on CNBC News questioned about the whisper campaign....
BORGER: All right, General, I'm going to switch gears on you just for one last question, because we've been watching all of the Democrats react to the news of Saddam Hussein's capture. You made a little bit of news on our show on November 6th when you said of General Wesley Clark that he was not going to get your vote, that was for certain, because General Hugh Shelton had said that he was not a man of character and integrity. And you said, quote, "If that's the case, he's not the right man for president as far as I'm concerned." Have you changed your mind?
SCHWARZKOPF: Well, again, 'if that's the case' was a very, very important statement. You know, I don't know to this date--there's never been any attempt to explore with Hugh Shelton what he meant by that.
....I don't know what lack of character caused Hugh Shelton to say that, I don't know what lack of integrity caused Hugh Shelton to say that, and I'd like to hear more about it. And basically I just don't think that that's been addressed that much. And obviously to a lot of people that's not an issue at all."
http://ann.forclark.com/story/2004/1/8/191653/0022

The fizzling whisper campaign was brought to a halt when General Shelton was called on the carpet by Hague prosecutors who were trying Milosovic. Milosovic repeated what Gen. Shelton had whispered about General Clark, after Clark testified against Milosovic. Unfortunately for General Gossip, he had to call his unfortunate comments assailing Wes Clark's character "just politics".
http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/presidence4.htm#LA%20Meetup%20...
Read these for further insight:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/10/int03221.html


MAJ. GEN. ROBERT SCALES: SCALES: I've known Wes for 40 years; he's also a passionate, committed, empathetic individual. So, soldiers in wartime have to lead soldiers into battle and the lives of men and women are at stake. And sometimes that requires a degree of flintiness that you don't need in other professions.

HUME: What about those who suggest that his character reflects a kind of unbridled ambition that puts his career above all things, fair?

SCALES: No. No. Unfair. Again, like I say I've known him all my adult life. He is an individual who is committed to a higher calling. I mean he's got three holes in him and a Silver Star from Vietnam. He has a…the word patriot only partially describes his commitment to public service. And for as long as I've known him, he's always looked, you know, beyond himself and he's been committed to serving the nation. And I think what you are seeing happen here recently is an example of that.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97689,00.html


Lt. Gen. James Hollingsworth, one of our Army's most distinguished war heroes, says: "Clark took a burst of AK fire, but didn't stop fighting. He stayed on the field 'til his mission was accomplished and his boys were safe. He was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart. And he earned 'em."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...


General Barry McCaffrey :"(He) is probably the most intelligent officer I ever served with," McCaffrey said. "(He has) great integrity, sound judgment and great kindness in dealing with people. He is a public servant of exceptional character and skill."

McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918...
"I have watched him at close range for 35 years, in which I have looked at the allegation, and I found it totally unsupported," said retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who taught with Clark at West Point in the 1970s. "That's not to say he isn't ambitious and quick. He is probably among the top five most talented I've met in my life. I think he is a national treasure who has a lot to offer the country."
McCaffrey acknowledges that Clark was not the most popular four-star general among the Army leadership. "This is no insult to Army culture, a culture I love and admire," McCaffrey said, "but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good-looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture. He was not one of the good old boys."
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/proj...


Defense Secretary William Perry: who as deputy defense secretary first encountered Clark in 1994 when he was a three-star on the Joint Staff. "I was enormously impressed by him," said Perry, a legendary Pentagon technologist who served as defense secretary under Clinton.

Perry was so impressed, in fact, that with Clark facing retirement unless a four-star job could be found for him, Perry overrode the Army and insisted that Clark be appointed commander of the U.S. Southern Command, one of the military's powerful regional commanders in chief, or CINCs. "I was never sorry for that appointment," Perry said.
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/proj...

Gen. John Shalikashvili, chairman of the Joint Chiefs overrode the Army once again and made sure Clark became Supreme Allied Commander Europe, traditionally the most powerful CINC, with command of all U.S. and NATO forces on the continent.
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/proj...

Col. Douglas Macgregor: There is this aspect of his character: He is loyal to people he knows are capable and competent," Macgregor said. "As for his peers, it's a function of jealousy and envy, and it's a case of misunderstanding. Gen. Clark is an intense person, he's passionate, and certainly the military is suspicious of people who are intense and passionate. He is a complex man who does not lend himself to simplistic formulations. But he is very competent, and devoted to the country."
http://www.projo.com/extra/2003/candidates/content/proj...

Col. David Hackworth: I'm impressed. He is insightful, he has his act together, he understands what makes national security tick – and he thinks on his feet somewhere around Mach 3. No big surprise, since he graduated first in his class from West Point, which puts him in the supersmart set with Robert E. Lee, Douglas MacArthur and Maxwell Taylor.
Clark was so brilliant, he was whisked off to Oxford as a Rhodes scholar and didn't get his boots into the Vietnam mud until well after his 1966 West Point class came close to achieving the academy record for the most Purple Hearts in any one war. When he finally got there, he took over a 1st Infantry Division rifle company and was badly wounded.
He doesn't suffer fools easily and wouldn't have allowed the dilettantes who convinced Dubya to do Iraq to even cut the White House lawn. So he should prepare for a fair amount of dart-throwing from detractors he's ripped into during the past three decades.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...

Andrew Young: "I asked a whole lot of my friends who were generals and colonels and majors, who served over General Clark and under General Clark and every last one of them said to me that this is a good man, and if he were leading our nation they would be proud. son of the South capable of making a dangerous world a safer place for everybody. A man we are going to make the next president of the United States."
http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/asp/FullC...





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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I'm at work and don't have time to read all of this but will when I get home, but you are wrong
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 04:35 PM by wmbrew0206
one point.

SACEUR answers to the the Secretary of Defense and the Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not the President.

SACEUR or EUCOM as it is also called is one of the five Theater Commands, CentCom, SOUTHCOM, NORTHCOM, and PACOM. The commanders of these theater commands all still answer to the SecDef and the CJCS.

So your argument that Cohen and Shelton didn't like Clark because he didn't answer to them doesn't fly.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Give me your sources for that....cause here are mine!
The Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic, (SACLANT) is a U.S. Army General Officer. He is nominated by the President of the United States and approved by the North Atlantic Council, NATO's highest governing body. He receives his direction from the NATO Military Committee. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dod/jfcom.htm

The Military Committee
NATO's senior military authority
http://www.nato.int/issues/military_committee/index.html

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Here you go
First:

The role of CJCS in the chain of command of the combatant commands is threefold: communications, oversight, and spokesman.

* Communications between the NCA and the combatant commanders may pass through CJCS. The Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986 permits the President to place the Chairman in the communications chain and the President has in fact directed th at such communications pass through the Chairman.
* Oversight of the activities of combatant commands may be delegated by the Secretary of Defense to CJCS.
* CJCS is the spokesman for the combatant commanders on the operational requirements of their commands.

The Goldwater-Nichols Act requires that forces under the jurisdiction of the Military Departments be assigned to the combatant commands, with the exception of forces assigned to perform the mission of the military department, (e.g., recruit, supply, equip , maintain). In addition, forces within a Combatant Commander's geographic area of responsibility fall under the command of the combatant commander except as otherwise directed by the Secretary of Defense.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/dod/chain.htm

Second (from your second link):

The Military Committee is made up of senior military officers from the NATO member countries who serve as their country’s Military Representatives to NATO, representing their Chiefs of Defence.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. SACEUR has dual-hat capacity depending.......in reference to the NATO war
he reported to NATO Chain of Command (The NATO Council, which are the participating country head of state), not to the US Chain of Command (the Pentagon).

http://www.aerospaceindia.org/Journals/Monsoon%202004/Air%20War%20in%20Kosovo.pdf
(see page 11 for diagram of dual chain of command chart)
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. According to that chart, Clark was still answerable to Cohen and Shelton
When dealing with other NATO countries, Clark would still be dealing with their Secretaries of Defense, not their head of state.

Similarly, when dealing with the US, Clark had to answer to Shelton and Cohen due to the Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986.

Going back to the original issue that start us down this road, Clark DID have to answer to Cohen and Shelton.

Unless, Shelton comes out and clarifies his remarks or retracts them, the issue about Clark's departure from EUCOM will be an issue for Republicans to use against the Obama campaign.

I think Clark would be great as SecState, just not as a VP candidate.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Nope.......Dual capacity doesn't mean that you have to answer to both parts
This was a NATO Offensive......not a US Offensive. That is why Gen. Jackson, a British General was Clark's subordinate.

But I'm not going to argue with you anymore.......as I'm sure that you are not going to agree, even when it is clear.

Why would NATO answer to the Pentagon?

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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. We are agreeing on the thefact there are two seperate commands
Edited on Tue Jun-17-08 07:58 PM by wmbrew0206
what we are disagreeing on is who Clark answered to in his US chain of command.

Also, the US is part of NATO and Clark would be accountable to the US through NATO. What we are disagreeing over is who Clark would be answering to in the US in his role as SACEUR. I think it would be the US SecDef and I think you believe it would be the President, correct?

The reason I believe it would be the SecDef is because if it was the President, it would create an issue with the chain of command where a Genreal, as SACEUR could bypass the SecDef and the CJCS and it would violated the Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986.

I agree we are not gong to agree on this one.

One question: Would you rather have Wes Clark and have these issues brought up by the republicans or have Tony Zinni who brings everything to the ticket that Clark does, but doesn't have any baggage from his final tour?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. I want the Veep that Obama decides on.......
that's what I want, period.

I just don't like the lies that were told about Wes Clark. It believe him to have been a great General; the best in decades. So he wasn't a perfect soldier. So what? That's the point; he examplified over and over again that he's been a leader, not a follower.

That is all.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
40. He did,however, praise 'W' on camera....
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Actually no, he didn't
He said a few nice things about some other men who he had known from the past who had just taken office with Bush, but he didn't actually say nice things about Bush. For context understand that this was during the first few months of the Bush Administration, at a time when many Democrats had a few nice things to say about members of the new Administration as a political courtesy. Only Ashcroft got serious opposition among Bush's cabinet appointments for example, most got only nice things said about them at that time.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Don't get me wrong... I actually like Clark even better than our nominee
but his comments on Bush always stuck in my craw...

For context, many of us at DU and those of us who saw W as gov. of Texas knew well the disaster that 'W' would be.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-16-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. K & R (nt)
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
47. it has to do with certain types of people on the left
that when it comes to anything military and especially someone like Clark who became a General just make the worst assumptions.

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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. I think that's it in a nutshell.
I guess these people don't want the votes of thousands of retired and former military, either.

My hubby served in the Army - and briefly under Clark - and he's a liberal.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. i think it also has to do with the whole purity , morally superior
sense some of these people have. that to serve in the military automatically makes someone inferior when it comes to liberal beliefs. that they view the person as being pro war and the only correct or right position is to be against war in all cases.

it's not surprising as i have seen some fools on here say WWII was wrong also.

these people also view the military as existing in itself for some horrible purpose other than just defending the country. that's where all the shit about Clark and the stuff about haitan men stuff comes in.

during the Tsunami these idiots were claiming the military testing of weapons caused it.


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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. good point, DU seems to harbor some who need to engage in a daily pissing match
to determine who is the most Uber-Liberal in the most stereotypical and kneejerk way.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
73. Glad I've missed it.
While I do not see Clark as a preference for Obama's running-mate, I think he's a good Dem, doing battle for us as a team player and should be respected.

Some only know the role of shit flinging monkey I guess.

Julie
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-17-08 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
74. Not a surprise
...many of them picked up every nasty rw tactic to smear and denounce Hillary. Some people have no sense. and some of those people post on DU.
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