Another bad thing about the "mama baby" thing. People hear stuff like that and then

[RB TexLa]

think it's an appropriate way to speak.

[MrSlayer]

1. It's "Baby Mama" and, for better or worse, it's a part of the vernacular.

Slang is a major part of any language.

[RB TexLa]

25. Doesn't make it a proper way to speak.

[Lerkfish]

70. what is your criteria for "proper"?

just curious.

[RB TexLa]

75. Proper English as opposed to slang.

[Lerkfish]

77. slang eventually enters the dictionary after enough colloquial usage

:shrug:

a great portion of our SWELL language was slang at one time, before we considered it LOUSY. Its kind of NEAT how LINGO becomes CONVENTIONAL WISDOM.
even phrases become COINED in order to better HIP you to the 411.


are you sure "proper" doesn't mean "WASP"?

[1Hippiechick]

83. Queen's English? And exactly who determined that? How did the Native Americans take to that?!?

[1Hippiechick]

84. Hmmmmm...how old are you? No offense, but....how old are you?

[RB TexLa]

92. 39, but I spoke properly in my teens and twenties.

[1Hippiechick]

95. The times, they are a-changin'........

[RB TexLa]

96. Not really there have always been slang expressions people used.

[1Hippiechick]

98. I was talking about attitudes changing..... :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. It's too bad you didn't get a better education.

:shrug:

[RB TexLa]

103. Everyone could use that. My parents were public school employees so that's where we went.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

105. Really?

You sound like some prep school snob.

[RB TexLa]

106. Because I think people should try to speak properly?

[TheDonkey]

40. so calling her a slut would also be acceptable?

slut is part of the vernacular as well and a popular slang term. Just because it is popular doesn't mean it is appropriate or even descriptive of the situation.

[MrSlayer]

54. No, neither are acceptable to call her.

My point was that the term has a place in the language. Applying it to Michelle Obama is incorrect as well as tasteless. She's not his baby mama, she's his wife and partner.

[1Hippiechick]

85. Urban Dictionary link to definition of Baby Mama

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=+baby+mama

[Enrique]

2. baby mama is a neutral term

I don't see anything inappropriate about it. :shrug:

[hardbop]

3. Its inappropriate when referring to Michelle Obama because ...

it implies that Barack is an absentee father and that they are not married. It also reinforces the "he's different"/not one of us attitude that could make white swing voters ambivalent towards Barack.

[regnaD kciN]

4. Not to mention...

...the use of that particular "black" slang term perpetuates the already-popular racist stereotype that African-American males go around having sex indiscriminately and leaving a trail of "illegitimate" children -- and that even a long-term marriage of a prominent African-American leader should be viewed as merely another instance of that phenomenon. :-(

[hardbop]

6. Exactly - n/t

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

53. Even more, what is so disgusting about this particular slur is that it was used against McDumbya

during the 2000 SC Repug primaries, remember? KKKarl Rove's push polling asked SC voters if they were more or less likely to vote for McDumbya if they knew he had an "illegitimate black baby." That "baby" was the McCains' adopted Bangledeshi daughter. The Repugs love to use racially-coded language to scare white people, as Obama has noted.

It is even more despicable when one considers the fact that McDumbya cheated on his first wife with Cindy, whereas it is clear that the Obamas are so in love with one another. I feel that seeing two black people married and in love, raising a good family is psychologically uncomfortable for some whites who are not exposed to those positive images. Turning Michelle into a "baby's mama" is equivalent to Reagan's "Welfare Queen," and sadly many Democrats bought into that and became Reagan Democrats. To this day, the Democratic candidates continue to struggle with these fake Democrats and that's what Obama's facing right now.

How is it acceptable to ignore McDumbya's personal failings while not acknowledging the positive family-centered life that the Obamas exhibit???!?!?

It's racism, pure and simple.

[WillyWonton]

90. I am sure I will be flamed for this post, but I have to say it....

Many of the words and phrases that we all think are racists and/or derogatory towards AA come straight out of the AA community. I think we all know that calling someone a babymama or babydaddy implies something negative, and it was a cheapshot at the Obamas. When certain words are "normalized" though by a community, and made popular in music and media, you have to expect people will use them. I am not saying it is right, I am just saying that certain words have become part of pop culture, and then we scratch our heads and wonder why we hear people saying these words.

[ismnotwasm]

69. Yes

Excellent way to describe it

[Enrique]

5. what Fox said was unacceptable and absurd

but the OP seems to be saying the term itself is a slur, which it's not.

Then again, the OP doesn't explain what he means. :shrug:

[alarimer]

59. It is a slur if it is wrong, which in this case it is.

And completely reprehensible for Fox to use but we know what they are like so it is hardly surprising.

[Patchuli]

68. Even less surprisingly, I received no response

from Faux in regard to my complaint to them over this slur.

Fucking assholes...SLUR THAT Faux.

[AP]

15. I think there's a chance that it shows how out-of-touch FOX is -- a lot of people will realize that

it makes no sense since the Obamas are married.

[Clark2008]

20. Thank you.

I find it offensive as the Mama of two beautiful babies - a Mama who got married and THEN pregnant.

I'm not condemning women who are single Moms (been there, done that, have the T-shirt - I'm on my second marriage), but, in the perjorative, Baby Mama is a slang put-down.

[redqueen]

45. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

SOOOOOO good to see a newbie that isn't giving off that foul troll odor! :D

[Hieronymus]

52. Exactly, it refers to an unwed mother .. absentee father. Baby Daddy

is used too.

[SharonAnn]

93. Andits inappropriate when referring to laura Bush. In fact, it's just inappropriate, period.

[JVS]

7. They'd never call a white woman like Hillary a baby mama.

[Lilith Velkor]

55. No, they'd call her a fucking whore

Oh wait, that was a Democrat who did that. Nevermind.

[2rth2pwr]

58. truth.

[JVS]

61. pizza

:rofl:

[JackBeck]

71. Finally.

When did it happen?

[JVS]

74. Yesterday

IIRC

[Flying Dream Blues]

101. Hallelujah. nt

[JVS]

60. On national TV? Who did that?

[Flying Dream Blues]

102. Randi Rhodes, speaking at a corporate event thinking she was not being recorded, apparently. nt

[Youphemism]

8. Not really neutral:

From Wikipedia:

Baby mama (also baby-mama and baby-mother) is an African-American Vernacular English term used to describe a mother who is not married to her child's father. The term is included in the Oxford English Dictionary as baby-mama, where it is defined as, "the mother of a man's child, who is not his wife or (in most cases) his current or exclusive partner".

[Enrique]

9. it's not a derogatory word

people use it to describe themselves and their loved ones.

[Youphemism]

10. Uh, words are derogatory based on how they're used, as in this case...

For example, if McCain were to say that Michelle Obama is a nice mistress for Barack, that would be derogatory. The fact is, she's his wife.

Let me point you once again to the definition of the term:

"the mother of a man's child, who is not his wife or (in most cases) his current or exclusive partner"

It's completely inappropriate to use on a wife with children born within matrimony to a father not sleeping with someone on the side.

The negative implications are not only present, but multi-faceted.

[Enrique]

11. yes, that's why Fox is out of line

what you say the primary reason what they said is wrong.

But the OP seems to be saying that the term itself shouldn't be used, that the term itself is a slur, which it's not. In fact, the term is simply descriptive, and can be used affectionately.

Then again, the OP doesn't elaborate.

[Youphemism]

13. Well, it's also pretty borderline to use cross-racially...

Because the words "baby" and "momma" have meanings on their own, someone might hear that expression and not recognize that it implied a child born out of wedlock. I think that's what the OP was trying to say.

[roseBudd]

23. Chris Rock used it as a recurring character on SNL, it had ghetto connotation

[roseBudd]

22. If an AA wishes to describe themselves as nappy headed doesn't make Don Imus doing it OK

[1Hippiechick]

86. Right on! Same thing with using the "N" word - AA use it among themselves- they know the context

in which it is used. Acceptable among them. I have no problem with that.

[cali]

12. it is NOT a neutral term or even close. According to the urban

dictionary, it refers to a woman who a man is not married to who is the mother of his children. How the hell is that neutral? Furthermore, it's completely inapppropriate to use slang on a news channel.

Just ack that anyone considers this appropriat language.

Oh yeah and it's full tilt racist crap.

[Enrique]

14. it's neutral if that's what the situation is

maybe the problem is that people think there is something "unspeakable" about having children without being married, so that a descriptive term for it is automatically derogatory.

Yes, I agree it's inappropriate on a news channel, and that white people should be careful using the word, and that they can easily use it in a racist way.

But the word itself is ok. It's not a slur in itself.

[AP]

16. I heard Tavis Smiley talk about how weird it is to hear black vernacular slip into white popular

culture on his radio show recently.

This isn't exactly the same case, since there is a nasty edge to it. But, Smiley said that he nearly drove his car off the road once listening to a radio ad for some entertainment event that wasn't exactly geared for a black audience and the script -- read by a white woman with that standard voice -- used the phrase, "get your party on"

[roseBudd]

24. You obviosly don't get how the GOP uses race to win elections if you think baby mama or welfare

queen are neutral or don't refer specifically to black women.

Eminem using it does not make it not racial.

[Enrique]

26. read my posts please

I say that the word can be used offensively, and that Fox is doing that.

But the OP says the language itself is inappropriate, which it's not. It's a perfectly acceptable descriptive word whose normal, common usage is devoid of negative connotation.

The OP by the way is apparently jerking us all around.

[roseBudd]

29. It is derogatory, if your baby mama was someone you cared about she would be your Boo

[Steerpike_Denver]

57. You're not getting it

The term implies illegitimacy, just like the term "bastard". It can be neutral, like when saying something like, "The Duke of York was the bastard son of the king", but to call someone a bastard (especially if they aren't) is definitely NOT "Neutral". It's like calling someone a "Ho" (or "whore"). It may be that that person is actually a prostitute, and you could argue that prostitution is perfectly acceptable in your value system, but it will never be perceived as a neutral term.

[Enrique]

62. I think you are incorrect

I have heard the term used many times, and it has never had anywhere near the connotation that bastard does. It has always been used simply descriptively, and never normatively.

Why does everyone's authoritative knowledge about this word disagree so totally with my experience of the word's usage? It's a mystery to me.

[TheDonkey]

42. Context is king, and in this situation it was outrageous

Tina Fey's movie "Baby Mama" was not an offensive title considering the context. We are all adults here and understand that.

[Enrique]

47. I agree

but the OP is not talking about context, he's talking about the word itself.

[last_texas_dem]

49. Thank you

>>>>but the OP is not talking about context, he's talking about the word itself.>>>>

I'm amazed at how many who have responded on this thread seem to be missing this...

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. Wish I could rec your response

[jakem]

19. I dont hear it as neutral.

im sure many others dont either.

[roseBudd]

21. It most certainly is not neutral, it implies promiscuity, it implies irresponsible unprotected sex,

it implies ghetto, it also implies the women in question is black and often on welfare, often with children from a sucession of men

[Enrique]

27. in your mind maybe

but in fact the way it is commonly used is nothing like that.

As I've said a number of times, this common term can easily be used like that, and Fox is probably doing that, but that's a different story.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

31. It is the way

to ghettoize Obama.

It is used when referring to an unmarried parent - The baby Daddy. Not the husband. The baby Mama, not the wife.

My girlfriend does not say My baby's Daddy when she talks about her husband. Ever.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. It's unprofessional and racially biased.

:shrug:

[Bucky]

34. You got to understand code language,

No one on TV is gonna come out & say "don't vote for Obama; he's black." But desperate Republicans will attempt to ghettoize and exotify Obama to build up social resistors to swing voters pulling the lever for him.

Just watch, it'll get worse.

[jerryster]

65. Agreed.

This is just the beginning. Repubs are going to try to make people afraid of someone "different" being President. We have to be vigilant and call them on it every time.

[Occam Bandage]

35. No, it is not. Michelle is his wife, not his baby-mama.

[tishaLA]

36. "Today it's like a badge of honor

To be a baby mama..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7olzdcM9Z8

[1Hippiechick]

87. Loved the video, but her putting a positive spin on a negative doesn't alter the definition...or has

it changed?

[TheDonkey]

41. It's not nuetral at all

it is a derogatory word, meaning an unwed mother with a deadbeat/non-existent dad as a lover. Just because a Tina Fey movie came out with that title in a tongue-in-cheek manner doesn't mean it still isn't a negative term. Some people have used it to jokingly refer to their situation but it is sarcasm, and racially charged, and shouldn't be used in a TV news report.

[Enrique]

46. I've only heard it in the way I'm talking about

as a neutral description of someone, as in "I have to call my baby mama back."

I've never heard it used as an insult or with any negative connotation at all.

[Shakespeare]

43. No, it's pejorative.

And is a slang term for an unmarried welfare mother. That's how they depicted Mrs. Obama.

[Blondiegrrl]

51. I've always thought it was derogatory. n/t

[PatGund]

104. So then...

It's okay if someone refers to Sen. Clinton as "Bill's Baby Mama"?? After all, it's neutral and not inappropriate? And none of Sen. Clinton's supporters should be offended by it, right?

[barack the house]

17. Well wiser we don't use it here. His mother was a humanitarian good enough for me really...

He needs to drum home this point of her humanitarian causes.

[JTFrog]

18. Or worse they say things like "mama baby".

:eyes:

[last_texas_dem]

28. It's just a descriptive term, really

Obviously in the context that Fox used it it's disgusting, but it's not grammatically incorrect as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't call it "inappropriate."

[roseBudd]

30. And Nappy Headed Hos was just about hairstyles, right?

Grammatically incorrect sounds like parsing.

[last_texas_dem]

38. My post was referencing the OP's point about

"people thinking it's an appropriate way to speak." The OP once posted that he turns and walks away from anyone as soon as he hears them use the term "y'all" (one of my favorite words), due to it not being "proper" or something like that, so I was just making the point that "baby mama" is at least a grammatically correct term.

[Shakespeare]

44. It's pejorative AND it's grammatically incorrect.

:wtf:

[last_texas_dem]

48. How is it grammatically incorrect?

And as for "pejorative", I'm speaking about it in the context of those who have been using this slang term for years now. Fox News doesn't have any business using it, but I'm not in the business of telling those who use it as part of their vernacular whether it's appropriate or inappropriate to use, anymore than others have any business policing what slang terms I choose to use.

[Shakespeare]

50. The ebonic-esque dropping of the possessive. Grammatically correct is "baby's mama."

As in, "I have to call my baby('s) mama."

It's a colloquial tendency that goes for almost any possessive within that vernacular. "He stay at Rick house" instead of "He's staying at Rick's house." It's quite common. Drives me nuts, but it's common.

And yeah, it's pejorative, within the vernacular. As somebody already pointed out in the thread, the corresponding positive (when someone is on good terms with their child's mother) is "boo."

[last_texas_dem]

56. Interesting

I hadn't thought about it in that sense, grammatically, but it would be incorrect in that way. I had thought of it along the lines of someone being a "baby mama" in the same sense that they are a "dog owner" or something along those lines. But used in a possessive sense ("my baby mama"), which I have definitely heard and in the example that you noted, it would definitely be grammatically improper.

[Enrique]

63. I think that's incorrect

baby-mama is not a non-standard way of saying "baby's mama." It's a separate word with a different meaning and with a separate entry in the dictionary.

I also disagree that it's a pejorative, based on how I've heard it used.

And boo means one's current sweetheart, while baby mama is generally an ex.

[Shakespeare]

66. No, you're incorrect. Which dictionary are you referring to?

The slang is a derivation of the possessive "baby's mama." That's really not debatable.

And yes, I'm aware you disagree. But that doesn't mean you're right. It's most definitely pejorative, and you've just re-explained that yourself.

[Enrique]

72. Oxford English Dictionary

it comes from Jamaican Creole.

But my thoughts in this thread don't come from the dictionary, which I looked up just now, but from my own experience hearing the word used. That experience jibes with this article: the word is a separate word, not sloppily dropping the possessive s from "baby's mama", and it's not pejorative.

http://www.slate.com/id/2141083/

(...)

The Oxford English Dictionary defines baby-daddy as "the father of a woman's child, who is not her husband or (in most cases) her current or exclusive partner." The baby-mama entry follows the same template with the genders reversed. But some gossip writers have been adopting the first part of the definition and ignoring the second. Salon recently called Tom Cruise "Katie Holmes' baby-daddy," even though the couple is engaged. And Gawker refers to Keven Federline as "Britney Spears' baby-daddy," even though the couple has been married for more than a year.

Such usages would be unlikely in Jamaica, where baby-daddy has its roots. The OED lists baby-daddy and baby-mama as "colloquial, chiefly African-American" variants of the Jamaican terms baby-father and baby-mother; its first citation for baby-mother hails from the Kingston Daily Gleaner in 1966. The terms probably arose in Jamaican Creole—where they would have been pronounced "biebifaada" and "biebimada"—before taking hold in standard Jamaican English.

On the island, your baby-mother or baby-father is typically someone with whom you are no longer romantically involved. If you called your husband your "baby-father," he might be insulted—the term suggests biological fatherhood in the absence of any real parenting. The linguistics professor Peter L. Patrick, who studies Jamaican Creole, said the terms "definitely imply there is not a marriage—not even a common-law marriage—but rather that the child is an 'outside' child."

[Shakespeare]

73. The Jamaican Creole term is pidgeonized English, and comes from a possessive term.

I'm aware of the etymology.

[1Hippiechick]

88. Urban Dictionary Link: Pejorative Terms for People

Babymama is NOT the same thing as baby's mama, IMHO!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pejorative_terms_for_people

[WritingIsMyReligion]

91. It carries connotations that the father is absent in the child's life no matter where it's used.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baby+mama

1) The mother of your child(ren), whom you did not marry and with whom you are not currently involved.

2) A term used to define an unmarried young woman (but can be a woman of any age) who has had a child. As mentioned before in another definition, most of the time it is used for when it was simply a sexual relationship, compared to ex-wife or girlfriend. Usually this has a negative connotation, a lot of baby mamas are seen as desperate, gold digging, emotionally starved, shady women who had a baby out of spite or to keep a man. Sometimes they may act like this because of missed child support payments, unfulfilled promises by the father, or convenient sex by the father. Either or both may exist in any situation.

Extremely disgusting and lame word.

[CakeGrrl]

32. Fox is putting it out there to scare people away from Obama. Period.

They're not speaking to the people who "get" its use.

They're speaking to the people who will be put off by it as a way to further cement the scary notion that one of those ghetto blacks might sully the White House. The horrors.

[demokatgurrl]

37. Exactly! Best comment on this issue.

[jerryster]

64. Exactly right. n/t

[1Hippiechick]

89. Ya know, Fox has been leading for the demographic 25-54, I think. What about older, retired viewers

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=+baby+mama

To whom do they listen predominantly? I haven't taken the time to Google......

I have seen 70s post right here in DU that they are switching parties and voting for Obama, as are their friends. Plus, I have read that those most objecting to McSame's age are those who are OLDER than McSame?

Has someone taken a poll on DU to see who is watching what, and the age of the responders?

[Elspeth]

67. Isn't that elitist?

Why should one dialectical term be privileged over another?

[RB TexLa]

76. Thinking people should speak properly is elitist?

[Elspeth]

78. The word "properly" is elitist.

It implies a judgment based on the standards of a particular, privileged dialect.

[RB TexLa]

79. So the rules of English should not be taught in schools? People should not attempt to speak

properly because standards have been set as to what is proper?

Expecting people to attempt to speak properly is not elitist. I understand that there are people too stupid to speak properly but everyone can try.

[Elspeth]

80. Whose English?

The United States has many "Englishes" hailing from many different locations and ethnic groups. It is a historical and political accident that a particular white, East Coast, upper crust dialect became considered the "standard."

If certain Southern English had become the standard, we would be using double modals: saying "He might could go," instead of "He might be able to go." Who is to say which is the better result?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

81. Barbara Jordan never said "We be conversatin;"

She went a long way speaking proper (i.e. white) English. Communicating with white people who speak white English is not selling out.

She explained impeachment to the American people when she was on the House Judiciary Committee.

[Enrique]

82. baby mama is part of English now

it's in the OED. It's a good thing, too, it's another good contribution to our language from another culture.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. Yes, Barbara Jordan was very articulate, wasn't she?

By all means, tell us more.

[thewiseguy]

94. Nice to see you finally got your pizza. Rethug.

[JVS]

97. Awesome!