My sincere question to Hillary supporters who refuse to support Obama -- Why?

[TexanDem]

Since both of them have very similar positions on issues, and since we're all Democrats or else we wouldn't be members of this forum, I'm curious as to what the rationale is as to why that segment of her supporters think McCain is preferable to Obama. Even those who say they'll just bow out this election, that too will be an indirect support of McCain since I imagine this will be a very close race and the Democratic party will need every vote we can get to gain victory.

Hopefully this will produce a productive conversation and debate of legitimate concerns that might clarify some misconceptions or discuss with an open mind different ways of looking at things, or even an acceptance with a respectful agree to disagree outcome.

What's wonderful about this country is we all have a right to our opinions and preferences that should be respected. So, please, let's be civil and courteous and not turn this into a "hate" thread or a challenge of who can come up with the most witty and rude comeback from either side (not that I think anybody here would do such a thing :) ) There's plenty opportunity to let off steam in either other threads or even start your own.

Thank you to both sides in advance those who will be willing to share your personal concerns, thoughts, or alternate viewpoints.

PS Perhaps even the Hillary supporters who have agreed to support Obama might want to share their thoughts for the benefit of their fellow supporters who might be struggling with the decision.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

1. Be careful! I tried this yesterday and failed miserably. n/t

[Rene]

16. I'm deeply suspicious of obama....of his sudden rise and monied backing

I don't like a n y o n e who buys an election with the thinest resume I've ever seen in politics. and who READS drivel, trite speeches with canned phrases...someone elses words I want more explanation of the Rezko lying---the vacations at Rezko's summer home. WHY did he vote PRESENT 120 votes so as to not have a voting track record.....anyone who has ONE chairmanship of a critical committee oveseeing NATO and fails to hold one meeting......and most of all anyone who sat in that church for 20 years and listened to that rhetoric without walking out or putting a stop to it, if he's a so-called leader. His so-called 'supporters on DU are rude and crude --- complete turn off. and his campaign started 17 months ago with the false story plants and racist plants---www.attacktimeline.com. very rove-like campaign--sneaky, smelly.
Obama is so exactly like what we heard in 1999 from w. gonna change DC..gonna work across the aisle....gonna unify........what a crock that turned out to be.

[papau]

18. Indeed his staff told everyone that "just campaign talk" need not be believed -plus sexism/race card

playing by searching for Hillary supporters innocent quotes and acting like those quotes made Hillary a racist do not - for some - lead to any possibility of unity if Hillary is not VP.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Median Democrat]

27. Question - Have You Explored Your Suspicions?

Rene,

You mention a lot of negative things in your post, but nothing positive. Have you criticall examined Obama or McCain for that matter? Have you read either of their books? Have you examined their positions on the issues? Both MSNBC and their websites list their positions.

My take is that Obama seems far more genuine and authentic then John McCain, but that is my opinion based on my review of the aforementioned materials.

Are you giving Obama or McCain a fair assessment?

[gabeana]

34. I could swear you are describing Hilary and her followers,

critical thinking is not your strong suit is it? Supporting a candidate who is only there because of her husbands career, I love how you mention Rezko but where is the mention of Hsu?(if you even know who that is)
I'd rather be a member of Obama's former church than Hillary's "The Family", read up on them interesting and frightening at the same time.

Hillary campaign using Rove as an authority

[roseBudd]

42. But you are not suspicous of McCain?

Keating 5 doesn't bother you?

Tax cuts for the wealthy, while our infrastructure crumbles?

One to three more antiabortion, anti equal pay for women SCOTUSes?

A man who votes against increasing the minimum wage?

A man who ate cake when Katrina hit?

You only have 2 choices, a democrat with the same positions as Hillary or McCain.

[TahitiNut]

50. God forbid we actually support someone who hasn't soaked in the Inside-The-Beltway sewage ....

... until they're thoroughly saturated in the corruption and filth of corporate wealth and the seductions of power.

[Emit]

54. I'll help you with your research. First, voting present is not necessarily ducking the vote

Present Votes are an Accepted Legislative Strategy in the Illinois Senate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4154278

~~~

Here's a discussion on Obama's role -- as the Chairman of the SUBCOMMITTEE of foreign relations committee, under the guidance of Senator Joe Biden:

It's true that Obama has convened no meetings of the subcommittee, but his camp counters that he became chair of the subcommittee early last year, just as he was starting his presidential campaign. Clinton is technically correct that Obama could have used the subcommittee to conduct oversight of actions and policies related to Afghanistan. But the full foreign relations committee, under the guidance of Senator Joe Biden, has held several hearings on Afghanistan that covered NATO's role there. It's not as if the foreign relations committee did nothing on Afghanistan because Obama did not take on the mission. Also, as happens with many committees, the chair of the full committee reserves the right to handle the big issues him- or herself, and Afghanistan counts as a big issue.

Clinton ought to be careful about hurling stones in this area. As she always tells campaign crowds, she is a member of the Senate armed services committee. In February the committee held two hearings on Afghanistan. On February 8, it focused on appropriations for U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates was a witness. Eight days later, the committee zeroed in on U.S. strategy in Afghanistan, holding a two-part hearing examining recent reports on Afghanistan. Key witnesses included senior officials from the State Department and the Pentagon responsible for the administration's Afghanistan policy.

Clinton attended neither of these hearings. She was on the campaign trail...

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/on-dereliction-of-duty-and-the.php

The rest, I have no time now to respond to. :hi:

[Mimosa]

56. And you're not 'suspicious' of McCain and his backers?

Rene, when it comes to November voting day would you be able to sleep well if you didn't vote for the Democratic nominee and McSame becomes the next president of the United States?

Would you be content for the war in Iraq to continue, possibly expand? Will you be happy with no health care for many Americans?

[Jazzgirl]

69. You know....

I was going to type a response to you but....it's not worth the energy.

[Marrah_G]

2. There are only a couple who have said they wouldn't vote for him

If left alone for 5 minutes they too might change their minds. This question is being asked multiple times a day and is doing nothing but irritating the Hillary supporters.

Just leave them alone and they will come around. Posts like this do nothing b ut make them dig their heels in more.

Do a search before you post.

[Jersey Devil]

3. I don't think it is wise to push people before they have a chance to heal

Jesus! It's been less than a week since Obama gained the delegates to win and less than 2 days since Hillary formally suspended her campaign. Some Hillary supporters still have to be very, very upset and disappointed. Give them time to heal, rest and regroup.

[BOSSHOG]

6. Lordy!

The voice of reason on this subject. Thank you very much !

This General Clark Supporter (A Clarkbot??) will proudly and vigorously and with a few bucks chucked in support for and vote for the Dem nominee for president. That has been my position since 1980.

[DesertFlower]

12. agreed. nt

[book_worm]

4. This is June. I think by November most HRC supporters will vote for Obama

It's only been a couple of days since Hillary officially left the race and the grieving process takes a little time for people.

[Writer]

5. I don't know where I'll be in November...

hopefully too busy to worry about my personal feelings about this campaign, but I feel rather burned by the interactions I've had in the public square.

And I have no idea what to expect next. I just feel disaffected by the Obama campaign now. It's not hatred, it's just disinterest.

[CatnHat]

21. I am totally

disinterested in Obama and his camp.

Let them wonder--who cares anymore.

After Obama dissed the working class poor in the democratic party; We are not voting Obama (that includes husbands, mom's, dads, daughters, sons, nephews, nieces and friends).

Whatever Obama does after this point is on him. One thing for certain, Obama and his crew cannot blame the Clinton's anymore. If Obama thinks he can diss a large majority of the democratic party; and now panders to the same group for support; is beyond disgusting.

After a poll within our family and friends, no one is voting at all. The election for all of us-- is over.

[Forkboy]

22. That's one sad ass family.

[Writer]

23. That was a cheap shot.

[Forkboy]

26. 4 years of McCain is an even cheaper one.

[Writer]

30. Whatever happens in the election doesn't excuse what you posted.

It was a low-blow cheap shot.

[Forkboy]

31. Your displeasure is a burden I'll have to carry then.

[dionysus]

38. ROFL

:spray:

[CatnHat]

25. Nope

not sad at all.

We just don't care---call it indifference.

There's more to life than corrupt politics.

[TahitiNut]

51. Don't get bitter about being called bitter.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

70. CatnHat

While I don't agree with your family's choice or reasoning in any way at all, I do apologize for my comment. As Writer said, and as cboy pointed out again elsewhere, is was over the top. My honest apologies.

[tnlurker]

29. When I read the text of his speech today

I did not see any indication of him dissing the working poor. In fact he has several things that he is talking about that will help that group in the long and short term. Maybe you should listen to some of his recent speeches.

By the way I was for Kucinich then Edwards. Obama was my third or fourth pick at best.

[Jester Messiah]

32. Diss? How? By winning? The nerve! [nt]

[Blue-Jay]

33. CrapnHat.

I don't believe a word you say.

[earthlover]

36. I bet your crowd will be real proud of yourselves if Roe v Wade is overturned by McCain

To do nothing facing the choice of electing someone with McCain's track record and beliefs is nothing to be proud of.

By the way....if you want something to be mad at, find out why McCain dumped his first wife....

McCain does not respect women.

[dionysus]

37. cool then you can leave here and leave DU to the democrats...

[roseBudd]

45. Is the book "What's The Matter with Kansas" a diss of white working class voters?

Because that is what he meant, media twisting and feigned outrage notwithstanding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What's_the_Matter_with_Kansas

[democrattotheend]

52. Sorry, when did Obama diss working class people?

Are you talking about the bitter comments?

[AZBlue]

64. He "dissed the working class poor in the democratic party"? How exactly?

[Stop Cornyn]

7. It's generally 1 of 2 answers: "because some anonymous person was mean to me on the internets" or

"because some person who supports Obama said something which offended me and now I can't support Obama notwithstanding the fact that the offensive comment didn't come either from Obama or from his campaign."

[nomorenomore08]

13. So it comes down to narcissism, doesn't it? Thinking one's feelings are more important

than the future of this country. Reminds me of the Nader voters from 2000 who thought Gore and Bush were the same candidate - talk about myopic!

[Writer]

19. If conversation in the public square is brutal, opponents will be less likely to see eye-to-eye.

And now that the dust has cleared and we now have a nominee, yes, the conversations that people have with one another will have an effect. It's human nature and I don't think it should be heckled.

[Joe Chi Minh]

8. Why should they? They obviously think you should stay in Iraq....

to bring the Iraqis democracy and freedoms, and such like. Well, maybe to teach them how to privatize everything, and, and how to operate oil wells, too.

The worldy-wise are not in the habit of voting against their immediate, material self-interest and are unlikely to want mcCain to completely ruin them. They'll have more to lose than most. So, they'll probably vote for Obama.

[BzaDem]

9. Why do people keep thinking there are a lot of DU members who won't vote for Obama?

There are very few. Posts like this are an insult to those who would obviously vote for the nominee.

There are many more who might not vote for him outside of DU, and we need to work on that. But as far as DU members go, people of a progressive site are probably going to vote for the nominee.

[LisaM]

10. There are very few, and for some reason people won't let it go

They might also go back and see how many people have said they would never vote for Hillary, which, apparently, is different!

[TexanDem]

15. This poll thread is what triggered me to want to ask the question >

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6267568&mesg_id=6267568

(snip)Obama Campaign needs to "woo" 15 of 16 Clinton Supporters to vote for Obama.

POLL:
IF YOU ARE AN HRC SUPPORTER, CAN YOU BE CONVINCED TO BECOME ONE OF THE 15 OF 16?
Results at this moment is: 98 votes: 47 votes yes; 51 votes no. So, apparently it's qute a few on this board.

[Arkansas Granny]

39. I wouldn't call any poll taken on DU as a reliable indicator. It's just possible

that some of the no votes came from people trying to make Clinton supporters look bad. Unfortunately, there are some posters on this board who are only here to create divisions between us.

[cbayer]

44. That poll is garbage.

There is a group of Clinton haters still here that are invested on keeping the division going. I feel very certain that they voted in that poll in an attempt to make it appear that there are a lot of Clinton supporters who will not vote for Obama.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[jillan]

11. Let's put it this way---

Obama is not their choice.

Simple as all that.

I love Joe Biden. It took me awhile to decide to support Hillary over Obama.
Yes I will vote for Obama, but I would give anything to have Biden or Hillary as our nominee.


People who support Obama may not understand the passion and the following that Hillary has.
You can't shut that off over night.

Give them time.

[BlooInBloo]

14. It's their "Khan" time - they just want to show their spite to the bitter end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGokpLRVWWc&feature=related

[saracat]

17. I answered this yesterday in a civil manner and was met with abuse.

I tried to explain the position of those that do not feel they can support him.I will not do so again.

[papau]

20. I understand - I therefore tried above to answer the question as I don't give a damn about "abuse" !

[TexanDem]

41. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Will you point me to the thread? via message if you prefer

[Emit]

55. This might be the post and thread saracat is referring to

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=6308062#6308133

[TexanDem]

62. thanks. I didn't see any abuse, and I also don't understand the logic >>

I"m a woman, an elderly woman, and I didn't detect any mistreatment of Hillary because she's a woman. Any criticism I heard, or even offered up myself, was due to her behavior during the campaign. Perhaps some people threw out some name calling that was gender based, but if she had been a man they got mad at, they would have used more masculine name calling. That's not saying she's not worthy because she's a woman. It's just voicing anger. I see it no different than calling a female "she" or a male "he." What would be sexist is to say she was incapable of being a leader, or a president, or winning because she's a woman, something like she should be home baking cookies (oops, she said that) -- anyway, some kind of stuff like that, that could be sexist, but nobody said that other than a few deranged troublemakers in rallies or hiding behind computer monitors, but not the media and certainly not Obama. Obama was so gracious and respectful to her at all times that I even felt he overdid the praises sometimes when she was very clearly his ardent opponent.
Well, I hope those who are so offended can work this out in their own minds before November. Because we're going to be in a heck of a lot of trouble if the Dems don't win back the White House. The cliche' "don't cut off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.

[Emit]

68. I've learned we all have different thresholds when it comes to what, exactly, constitutes sexism

I do recall a piece I read, provided to me by a Clinton supporter some time ago, that gave some examples of sexism in the media. And, I've seen a few video clips here and there. I don't have cable, so I wasn't privy to 24-7 coverage. As far as DU is concerned, most of the good folks I know called out posters for inflammatory remarks that could be construed as sexism, or that were blatant. Often, the Obama supporters were as aggressive as any in jumping on the trolls and misogynists -- I applaud them for that.

I, myself, ran into difficulty discussing this topic in this now infamous thread, (wait for it to load -- it was a huge thread) and so, as a result, I usually stayed out of the fray.

I contend that most of the criticisms about Clinton were valid, imho, and related to her behavior, and had little or nothing to do with her gender.

As far as saracat's post, I, too, didn't see the abuse she claims, although, in all honesty, that might not be the post she was referring to. Perhaps saracat will respond directly to your question. :hi:

[Emit]

59. Although, that might not be the post - didn't see that saracat was "met with abuse"

after a cursory look of that thread. There may be others. I recall reading similar threads yesterday. Hopefully, saracat will be able to let you know which thread she was referring to.

[ampad]

24. Honestly, I could care less

About the few who refuse to vote for Obama. You should probably do the same considering there is a few and they are the minority. Those in the minority were never really Dems to begin with. If you can sit out this election or vote McCain after listening to the man speak about his policies then you are essentially a worthless regpig as far as I am concern.

[Diamonique]

28. Ditto!!!!!

There aren't enough of them to really matter one way or another this early in the race, and constantly picking the scab off this wound isn't going to help at all.

[Indenturedebtor]

35. I care.

But if it's compatible with a person's character to do what makes them feel "good" in lieu of doing what's right for the greater good, then there's probably not much you can do about that.

By the time people reach adulthood it's very hard to change their character.

[Skittles]

61. the expression is "I COULDN'T care less"

and there's lots more than a FEW who won't vote for Obama

[busymom]

40. So here is a problem that I have...

I oppose raising the cap on social security. We worked very hard and went into a boatload of debt (student loans and otherwise) to get where we are financially as a family...and we have 5 children. I support the idea of universal healthcare and many other democratic ideals, but....

I simply oppose the idea that people who earn more, by default should pay a higher PERCENTAGE of their income to fund govt. programs. I think that we should all pay our fair share at the same PERCENTAGE rate. I know that is pie in the sky, so I take comfort in the fact that for a couple of months, I've hit the social security max and don't have to pay. It gives us a chance to catch up. If Obama raises the cap then...that is more money lost.

I just can't stomach that. It is my biggest problem.

I know, boohoo, right? But we have worked very hard and accumulatd a lot of student loan debt to get where we are...it has taken us many, many years and now we are almost no better off financially than when we earned less because of taxes. It makes it almost seem not worth it sometimes to get an education and try for a better life....

That's not a popular opinion though.

[TexanDem]

47. Thanks for sharing... (edited to add a PS) >>

I tend to agree that a flat percentage of taxes would be much more fair than our tax system as it is now. And I agree that those like you who work so hard to gain their dream shouldn't have a large portion taken away from them, nor do I agree to the death tax (which is also not very popular stance for a Democrat) These things don't affect me because I don't have enough money for it to affect me, but if you earn it, you should be able to keep it. But at the same time, I think it's also not fair for there to be so many deductions, loop holes, tax incentives and tax breaks that has the end result of some high-earner paying less dollar for dollar in taxes than someone making far less has to pay. I wish it was a flat percentage for everybody, period -- no accountants, no deductions, nothing. Just 15-20%, whatever, period, everybody, (except those below a certain income level, of course) Oftentimes these big earners pay $0 taxes, and that's not fair.
But this is almost a party issue rather than a candidate issue. Hillary's plan would reinstate the tax cuts that Bush had put into place, as well, though granted maybe not by the Social Security cap I don't guess but somewhere else. I'm not sure what her position was on that particular point. I do know she had a plan to bring in more tax money.
I can sympathize with your concern. I too have a couple of views that are more conservative than the traditional party lines. We seem to all have something that we have to balance out with some give and take according to its place of priority to us. Thanks for your input of a legitimate concern of policy.

(EDITED)
PS -- I meant to mention about the SS cap, that prevents a fair and equal percentage. So, fair is fair. That cap is only an aribtrary number. If we don't eliminate the cap to SS, we could lose it, and we all benefit from it. So, just to clarify "MY" taxing plan, it too would be a flat percentage, period; no caps. That's fair.

[quaker bill]

57. Might I suggest,

Taxes are not your problem. I have never earned more money in a way that did not make me absolutely wealthier. However, that being said, a dollar just does not go as far as it used to. This is not the result of taxes, which have largely been stable, but inflation, which hasn't.

You argue a rather republican line of logic.

[busymom]

63. This is the only issue where I do feel like I probably do

have a more republican line of logic. It also wasn't always the case.

Taxes are my problem. And. We can't take off any deductions. We live in a state with high state taxes and we are subject to the alternative minimum tax so loopholes are out.

We already realize that SS isn't going to be a big factor in being able to retire by the time that we're there, so we're planning for it not to exist.

I could get behind a flat tax.

[busymom]

67. I have to add that I will support Obama though...

I guess I misread the original question.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. Some People Are Just, Well, Ya Know, DUMB.

[MonkeyFunk]

48. to piss you off

will you guys please cut this shit out? It's gotten way beyond ridiculous.

[cboy4]

49. In my little DU/internets message board world, I would

never vote for Obama.

I wouldn't vote for him at gunpoint.

That's how sickening so many Obama fans have behaved and continue to behave.

The treatment of Senator Clinton has been beyond disgusting, and then all of that hypocrisy the night she endorsed him. It overflowed the GD: P sewers. I had to stop reading all of the hypocrites start saying nice things about her, when I knew all along she'd be graceful. She just wanted all of the votes counted.

Now in my real life world, where Obama supporters are my friends and colleagues .. and are mostly all decent people who treat me great, I have no problem supporting the Democratic nominee.

Sorry though. Here on DU, it's going to take many, many months before I feel comfortable uttering even one word of praise about Senator Obama. Many months. Just being honest.

I plan on voting for Obama. But that's it.

[McCamy Taylor]

53. I stayed neutral so I'm happy we have a nominee. GOBAMA! My mom was for Hillary.

Here is what she was telling me yesterday about why she will vote for him this fall but not send him any money. I think that even though she is smart and politically active and reads a lot on the Internet, all the pro Hillary sites she was reading got taken over by Obama bashing Freepers the same way this one got overrun by Hillary bashing Freepers. She told me

1.Obama is a corrupt politician owned by the Daley machine and he will be just as corrupt as Bush. I managed to get her to admit that he would at least not veto the bills coming out of Congress but that was all.

2.She was convinced that he would be as inexperienced as JFK and less intelligent. She thinks he is in it for the money.

3.She agrees with me that Rev. Wright is a great guy and dislikes Obama even more for distancing himself from him. She thinks Obama is too quick to make political decisions and not firm enough in his convictions.

Just for background info, she has very far left wing political views.

The only way that she could have come up with this impression of Obama is if a bunch of people have been spinning a yarn about him for Hillary supporters. I do not feel like reading any more anti Democratic oppo (just trying to handle the anti-Hillary oppo here was bad enough, I think I will blow a gasket if I have to start reading anti-Obama oppo somewhere else.) But maybe some people from DU should start visiting some of the Hillary sites and being nice and saying nice things like

"It is so wonderful how Hillary is bringing the party together"

"That shows great maturity and leadership"

"She is a real example to us all."

"She would make a great Senate leader to take Ted Kennedy's place"

Remember that when you tell people how great they are acting, they want to live up to your praise. That is the way to get Hillary supporters on board. Do not mock them or fuss at them. Praise them for their greatness.

[Tinksrival]

58. You were neutral?

Really?

[terrya]

60. Oh, for fuck's sakes...this is stupid beyond belief.

Jesus. So much for the "unity" around here.

[MonkeyFunk]

65. It's so tiresome, isn't it?

just one more way to attack Clinton supporters. They'll never give up, they'll never stop. Attack-attack-attack... that's all they do. It's sick. It's freeperish.

[Emit]

66. There are many on DU who are trying to apply logic to this quandary

In that, your continued claims of 'attack-attack-attack' just do not apply. Some of us really are just curious and would like to have a rational discussion.