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Watching TV rather mindlessly just now, was jolted. Verify, please.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 03:59 PM
Original message
Watching TV rather mindlessly just now, was jolted. Verify, please.
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 04:02 PM by madfloridian
The Kerry spokeswoman on CNN says Kerry disavows the newest MoveOn ad as too partisan. (or words similar...did not get exact phrase)

On FOX, they show Wesley Clark saying or being quoted as saying that he does not think Bush's military record is suspect or should be questioned or words similar.

Is this more hard to understand politics?

Dean's new column today is hard to understand in some ways, like he is backing off criticizing Bush as well.

If you could see the cartoon in our paper about Kerry's sensitive war, you would cry. It has him saying pretty please be nice over a bunch of skulls. The ad about Kerry's missing meetings airs over and over and over. And he says the MoveOn ad is not proper?

I am trying to be open minded and think politically and all that. I am not doing very well on it.

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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Something in the campaign has changed for the worse
even since the "I would have voted" issue came up.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. They're probably cherry-picking
John Kerry is adept at playing the game of saying things to appease conservatives and doing liberal things in spite of them.

It's a technique a lot of politicians use; the news media love to assemble such sound bites to try to paint the politician as a "flip flopper".

It's a bullshit argument -- trust what the politican has done. I think Kerry has deported himself pretty well, occasional lapses nonwithstanding.

--bkl
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I heard the woman say he did not approve of the MoveOn ad.
She was a spokeswoman for his campaign. I have not seen the ad yet, as I mostly just see the anti-Kerry ads locally. Swing state, you know.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Of course he didn't approve of it
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 04:12 PM by Walt Starr
There's no, "I'm John Kerry, and I approved this message" in the Move-on ad!
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kerry is being consistent
They have demanded that Bush disavow the smearboat vets, so he has to disavow an ad on his side questioning Bush's service.

So, now what we do is demand to know why, if Kerry disavows Moveon, Bush won't disavow smearboat.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Exactly.
Kerry is doing what Bush refuses to do. It just shows Kerry is the better man.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. That doesn't mean Kerry expects MoveOn to stop running the ads. He
comes off as the one taking the high road.
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. IMO Kerry is playing into *'s hands. * is going to accept Kerry's
disavowel and leave it at that. Bush has no qualms about being a prick.
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. No, you're aborting the chess game too early. Our move then.
If Bush doesn't respond with a disavowel of his own, people like US write to the newspapers/talk show hacks and blog like crazy, saying, "Why can't Bush stand up like Kerry did and DIRECTLY DISAVOW this smear ad? Is he afraid to? What sort of character does this show, that he won't take the high road? Is he always willing to be the one who won't stand buff under fire, but just hangs out on the sidelines muttering, like he did during Vietnam?" Etc. Etc.

It's our turn now.
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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not to worry. All is well. Kerry is smart and
is doing all the right stuff. You know something is going right when you read on the free republic (I know I shouldn't go there but I can't help it)that "Kerry is probably going to win...and I hope they are happy then..." (they were discussing (is that what they do?) the poll that showed that 70% of the Jewish vote went to Kerry)
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DrMath Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. ZOT!
I bet the freeper who said that is now dust in the wind!
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DaveFL99 Donating Member (301 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Yeah when Kerry wins that'll teach us all a lesson.

Jobs, health care, peace and security. It's gonna be hell.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sounds like we are rolling over. We lose if we don't fight back. Damn.
I was just starting to feel better about how the campaign is going. Now we back down. Further, what happened to some of the good stuff that Kerry used to say about "not claiming God was on his side, rather praying that we were on God's side",etc.?
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. I think Kerry did disavow the ad, but not too loudly ;o)
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 04:19 PM by unfrigginreal
as for the FOX clips of Clark, I didn't see them but CNN showed some and Clark did a good job pointing out the difference between Kerry's military record and the chimps. Wish I had a transcript to show you, but he really laid it out nicely to make Bush look like the cowardly brat he is next to decorated war veteran Kerry .
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. It doesn't matter what the Kerry campaign thinks
moveon is running the ad ANYWAY. Kerry wouldn't even be close to winning if it hadn't been for the "militant" LW base of the democratic party. Or as Dean would say, "the democratic wing of the democratic party." If Kerry is just distancing himself, fine, but don't get in the way. The swiftboat ad has to be dealt with NOW. Dem politions won't be allowed to go back to "getting rolled" by the thugs. Those days are over.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Does anyone have a link to ad in question here?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good cop, bad cop.
The allegations are out, but Kerry remains clean while Bush is both throwing and receiving mud.
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redstateblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Bingo- geek tragedy- Plus it makes Chimpster look mean and petty
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 08:31 PM by redstateliberal
Because he refused to disown his slimers.
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AlabamaYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. It was a bad move by Move On.
I've always felt it's better to let shit lie on the ground and decay than to light it, stomp on it and call everyone's attention to its existence. All the ad does is raise its visibility for another round.
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Moveon could have done a better ad
One that simply highlighted the vets' statements who DID serve under Kerry, and the fact that they did so and in what way.

And then maybe just end it with, "Where was Bush?"

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redstateblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. Money I Gave To MoveOn Was Well Spent
I'm glad to see them keeping the Bush AWOL thing alive and slamming the Not Too Swift Boaters at the same time.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Moveon's ad was just fine
It was also just fine that none of the Kerry's, Clark's, Dean's, et al are dirtying their hands with it by agreeing.

I don't understand what people don't "get" about this?



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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. this is DEATH to Kerry's campaign, if they continue to be
SISSIES!!!!

this is EXACTLY what Dukakis did!!

WTF are they THINKING???

he's ahead now, but the freaking PICTURE of Duke in the tank cost him an immediate eight point drop, which is the margin he lost by

this is MUCH worse, and if they don't respond, they're toast

I watched the Clinton/Daily Show rerun last night, and he was VERY clear about how they responded to EVERY attack they thought was unjustified in 92. VERY clear

they better WISE the FFFFFF up

NOW!!!!
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Texas_Dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Taking the high road
Getting in the gutter with the 'pugs only makes you look desperate. Moveon.org can say what they want, but Kerry is saying he is not associated with it, unlike Bush who is going to take hits until he disavows the Swift Boat Liars.
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iwantmycountryback Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. This actually makes a lot of sense for Kerry
The undecideds probably see Swift Boat Veterans for Falsehoods and MoveOn as radical groups trying to smear each candidate. IMO Kerry looks much better by showing that he doesn't endorse it while Bush is not denouncing that incredibly trashy ad.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. There are a lot of things that the Kerry campaign can say about Bush*,
but I don't hear them enough:
Making Bush* a "war president" as reason#1 for war.
Halliburton profit as the reason#2 for war
Bush*'s "unaccounted time in the National Guard"
Bush*'s removal of regulations that protect the environment
Bush-Cheney-Powell lies about WMD. "Misled" is too damn soft.
Bush*'s administration calling hamburger flipping a "manufacturing job"
Bush*'s administration saying outsourcing jobs is good for USA
lots more.
Lets get tough.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. What is the Kerry campaign saying about
the intimidation of black voters in Florida? (see Bob Herbert's 8/16/04 NYT column and Paul Krugman's 8/17/04 NYT column .html for an explanation).

KRUGMAN: Saving the Vote: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/opinion/17krugman.htm...

HERBERT: Supress the vote? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/opinion/16herbert.htm...

What is Kerry saying about the changes in overtime regulations that take effect THIS COMING Monday (8/23)? These changes affect all workers and not only those in a union. These changes alter who is eligible to be paid time and a half for working over 40 hours per week.



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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. You got it- two more. We should nail Bush* on this stuff.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Now this is important stuff
not this swift boat nonsense some DUers are so fixiated on.
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ItsMyParty Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here's the stupid problem with denouncing the MoveOn ad
..the republicans will bring up EVERY AD MoveOn puts out and ask Kerry to denounce them. The Swift Boat assholes are only one, stand alone ad. He's shooting down MoveOn who is putting out great ads and will put out more. And the republicans are laughing and laughing and laughing..............Democrats just can't break the mold of getting bested no matter how professional the campaign seems to be.
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iwantmycountryback Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Once there are more Kerry ads
Once Kerry starts putting outs his own ads, perhaps ones that question Bush's military service and other ads that expose the obvious lies of the Bush-sponsored ads, I think it will work out well for him. I think Bush looks bad by not denouncing the Swift Boat ad because so many other high-profile members of the Repuke party have been doing it.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. If you've ever worked on a campaign, the 2 most important words are...
field polling.

OK, 5 words: field polling in battleground states.

JK is the master, and his polling info is far superior to Bush*'s.

How do you think JK got this far?

We are not doomed!
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chuck555 Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. Mindlessly.
That says it all. Quack! Quack! Quack!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. And I reacted as most people might......mindlessly...as I was right then.
You did catch my point, OR you are not being very nice. Hard to tell.

Since most people might react that way when not on guard, I did make a point using the word.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Duckspeak! That's Double Plus Ungood! n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Could you explain the "Quack! Quack! Quack!"?
Just in case I misunderstood you? Just in case?
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
27. Kerry's must be tring to lose. They brought in the new hack and
now they'er going out of their way to suck up the shrub.
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Protected Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think Clark would rather bash Bush's record since he became President
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 04:55 PM by Jonathan Little
...which is what he has been doing. It's more effective and it's more relevant. I have no idea why Kerry focused so much on thirty years ago during the convention, but that's what we got. There's nothing that can be done about it now.

Hell, I'd like to see Kerry distance himself from Bush's military record as much as possible. One "AWOL" quote from Michael Moore at a Clark rally chewed up valuable time in the debates since Clark had to explain the freedom of speech to the idiot moderators.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. Is it the..."I'll let THEM do the dirty work and keep my fingers clean?
Thing? It seems that way. Kerry knows Moveon.org will not pull the ad. He knows what their 527 is for. Right? It's NOT to say "nice" things about the chimp. :hi:
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
34. Q: What is the best way to get the press to pick up an ad & run it
endlessly (& for free) on all the "news" programs while the talking twits chatter and natter?

Easy. Disavow it.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
37. Clark and other vets went at Bush today...
At a press conference attacking Bush on his "service". It's not their fault they were ignored by the media:

Kerry served and fought, said retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, who ran for the Democratic nomination against the senator but now is in his camp. "The other man scrambled and used his family's influence to get out of hearing a shot fired in anger".

Kerry is playing a game with Move On. It's called Good Cop, Bad Cop and it's really simple. Bush wouldn't disavow the Swiftliars, so Moveon does an attack ad, and allows Kerry to "condemn" it, lol. But the ad is out there just like the Swiftliars, except Kerry, unlike Bush, get's the High Ground. Win-Win.




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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. I think the Dems are strategizing and forcing Bush to renounce the SB ads.
Edited on Tue Aug-17-04 08:51 PM by mzmolly
My guess is the dems are all in agreement about this. :evilgrin:

I think it makes the Bushies look like the sleazy arses they are and if we can get ahead in the eyes of the media right away ???

I hate the meme "Kerry condemns moveon ad" because I dont think he did, but if it plays in our favor, that's a score for us and I'm sure Moveon is delighted to HELP in any way they can?

Politics sucks sometimes, but it's interesting to see how the game is played as well. Right now it looks like Bush is cheating, and were on the up and up.
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Here's a link to the MoveOn ad:

https://www.moveonpac.org/donate/swiftresponse.html

I just watched it, and I liked it.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. If Kerry condemned the ad at that link, he's an idiot.
A motherfucking idiot.

That ad is not partisan. It's pretty reasonable and based on fact.

WTF is wrong with these people?

It's partisan to point out the truth and deconstruct a false ad attacking Kerry?

What kind of insane country is this.

I now agree with my Stepfather. The great Liberals are dead.

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. 25 seconds out of 30 of the ad was simply refuting the
Swift Boat charges. Kerry condemns that?
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. That's exactly what I mean....Kerry must have been responding
to a different ad.

Not that ad.

Not that one.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
43. This is called operation "Milquetoaste"....
also codenames as operation "Self Censor"...based on the misguided belief that if we give Bush a break it will somehow make Kerry look like the bigger man.

If only Kerry and the Dems had been so nice to each other during the primaries...

In other words, I am fed up. Moveon and Michael Moore lay golden eggs at the feet of the Dems and they seem to be looking for goose shit.

This goes for Wes "Waterboy" Clark as well....

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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. HE'S BEING A GENIUS
kerry is stealing bush's method of attacking opponents : claim the high road, be the bigger man, and let your friends do the attacking.
the message gets across, and you come out looking like a friggin hero.
you people are taking the bait. kerr'ys a smart man. let him run.
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