Does anyone know the circumstances of Mcsames pow capture?

[miles 2 go]

I was just wondering if the "maverick" was being foolish and did something stupid that got himself captured. I saw a video on here about him and it seems that he wasn't so much a maverick but more of a hotshot pain in the ass. It appeared that he didn't follow directions and was a big party rat. It just occurred to me this morning that maybe hotshot was over "mavericking" at the time and caused his own capture. Anyone know? Just curious.

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. He wasn't doing something stupid; he was doing something immoral

Bombing civilian areas in an aggressive war against the Vietnamese people.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

Great. Another "soldiers are baby-killers" opinion.

Stuff it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. John McCain was a relatively privileged Naval officer

attacking, provisionally, the "Petroleum/Oil/Lubricant" facilities of the DRV from the sky. I think we can make distinctions between him and your average Army draftee thrown into the A Shau Valley. And I think we should. If you prefer to fetishize every act of American military personal, that's on you, kiddo.

[DemVet]

4. That's war, baby! Kill a commie for mommy!

Now, did that piss you off enough? Hope so.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Didn't piss me off at all, actually

Seems like you're the one that's pissed off.

[chknltl]

36. Yeah, I got that impression too out of this one.

Unwarranted suggestions regarding my military service down-thread leads me to suspect an anger control issue.

[Clovis Sangrail]

6. We *did bomb civilian areas and it *was an agressive

war against the Vietnamese people.

If you did something that was immoral, or supported something that was immoral, and can't deal with it maybe you shouldn't have done it.

The place on the pedestal where we put patriotism keeps most of us from calling or own soldiers anything like that... but it doesn't change the morality of their acts.

[anigbrowl]

23. It's a mistake to apply the moral standards of 2008 to actions carried out in 1965

I do not think the US military had any business being in Viet Nam to begin with, but the reasons for this were not as obvious to people at the time. It's easy to be judgmental in hindsight.

[BlooInBloo]

24. It's a mistake to apply the moral standards of ______ to actions carried out in ______

Have fun filling in the blanks folks!

Wow. So many things can be justified by that relativism....


EDIT: Re-structured.

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Right...because nobody in 1965 considered bombing Vietnam morally dubious

I assume you must be joking, yes?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Isn't that called "moral relativism?"

"I do not think the US military had any business being in Viet Nam to begin with, but the reasons for this were not as obvious to people at the time."

Oh, I think it was.

[billyoc]

2. Bombing civilian infrastructure, a prima facie war crime. nt

[DemVet]

7. Fucking pacifists.

War has always been, and always will be, a fact of life.

[Clovis Sangrail]

12. and it always has, and always will be, IMMORAL /nt

[Colobo]

16. War is sometimes necessary.

[Clovis Sangrail]

30. doesn't change the morality on the ground though... /nt

[billyoc]

22. Do I look like a fucking pacifist? I'd have bombed every nursery school in Iran in '79

when I was there, but I wouldn't have claimed some bullshit "hero" status afterword.

[Clovis Sangrail]

31. a pacifist is somebody who wont hit back

believe me... I hit back.

I just stop there.
I just don't feel the need to then maim your wife, kill your kids and blow up your village to reinforce the point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. What's your opinion on the current war?

Be honest.

[chknltl]

38. mCcain would agree whole heartedly with this position.

He even encourages it!

[Warren DeMontague]

46. You are unable to distinguish between wars of necessity and wars of choice?

For the record, I hold the architects of the war responsible; not the folks in uniform fighting it.


But the Vietnam war was a tragic, useless, and idiotic waste. Just like Iraq.

[chknltl]

3. Not exactly what you asked for...but related and entertaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s7kEb6Osqc&feature=rela...
The swift-boaters and republicans are swift-boating mCain in this vid!
My new name for mCcain: Comrad 'Songbird'

[DemVet]

5. You ever serve?

Doubtful.

Lay off McCain for his military service...it was disgusting to do this to Kerry and it's just as disgusting to do this to McCain.

[Condem]

17. I'm wih you, DemVet

Well said.

[chknltl]

28. See my response to DemVet post #27. It applies to you as well.

[chknltl]

27. WTF????

I Served in US Army, 1972-1974. 1st/1st Armored Cav, 1st AD. Viet Nam Era Vet.
I was NOT picking on John mCcain for his service.. This BTW is the DU where it is OK to point out that mCcain's fellow republicans are Swiftboating him for his service...which is EXACTLY what I did.
If I wanna call him Comrad Songbird because of what I saw in that link, I fail to see why not.
Hope that clears stuff up DemVet.

[RamboLiberal]

29. Yeah we all know everything on the net is so true

I heard a lot of POWs who were with McCain in the Hanoi Hilton have nothing bad to say about him and saluting him for his courage there.

Heard an extensive radio interview with one of them a few weeks ago.

Geez, didn't the Swiftboating of Kerry teach us anything?

[chknltl]

35. Sure it taught me the silliness that my fellow Americans can buy into if they want.

I am amazed that my fellow DUers have gotten so uppity over our adversaries, the REPUKES far falling for the same thing. Personally, I could give a rat's-butt about mCcain's service... If he was a good POW or a bad POW is not up to me or anyone other than his chums or his conscience to deal with. The fact that mCcain's own party supporters are now doing this to him is retribution in my book. That kind of self destruction is everything they RICHLY deserve for what they did to Kerry! Take any road you wish on this...I'll take the one that is not going to get in the way of the silly repukes as they self destruct....as a matter of fact, I encourage them to continue with the process of tearing themselves apart.

Maybe it will gain us even MORE of a mandate against the neo-con agenda come November. If this is accomplished through lies...well it will be their own lies and let that be their lesson to learn! It is NOT like they will learn this lesson by listening to us. THAT is what the Swift boating of Kerry taught me....it taught me that the repukes need a taste of their own medicine applied by their own folks! I applaud their efforts in this case for that very reason.

Isn't this grand? I find myself in defense of the position of cheering on the self destruction of the very people who have caused SOOOOOOOOOO much damage to our party, our nation and our planet. What is worse, I find myself in defense of this position in the Democratic Underground of all places.
What the hell????

[DemVet]

40. No, it does not.

[chknltl]

48. No, it does not WHAT?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Did you?

I doubt it.

[miles 2 go]

43. thanks for the link/ n/t

[JVS]

8. I think he was just shot down flying a routine mission

I've never read anything that indicates that McCain's service was defective in any way. It's just that he was not as much of an achiever as his father or grandfather who both were admirals.

[Marrah_G]

9. Please don't go this route

To attack his POW days will sour ALOT of people and turn them away from our Party. There is plenty of other things to point out about him.

[Clovis Sangrail]

11. I haven't looked into this at all

but it does make me wonder...

according to that video (disclaimer: didn't watch the whole thing) this germanated with some former swifties - what if they think this will be so repugnant that it will actually help McCain?
Especially if they can get a following on the left?

[miles 2 go]

44. I doubt that's the case

One would have to have some pretty hard evidence to proceed with making it an issue.

[mamalone]

14. Well said!

Denigrating McCain on his military service is a no win proposition... it will lose us ever so much more than we could ever gain from it. The fact that I think it is just plain wrong is beside the point.


Let it go, please... there are so many more worthy areas upon which to criticize him. We'll have no shortage, believe me

[fasttense]

10. He was a partier and so-so pilot. His name is what allowed him to be a pilot.

He graduated fifth from the bottom of his class in Annapolis. If you or I had performed so poorly, we certainly wouldn't have been selected for pilot training.

He lost 4 aircrafts before he was shot down and captured by the Vietnamese. Here's an excerpt of his pilot career:

"McCain, the "below par" pilot, eventually lost 5 military aircraft, the first during a training flight in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while trying to land. The Navy ignored the crash and graduated McCain in 1960.

While deployed in the Mediterranean, the hard partying McCain lost a second aircraft. Timberg described the crash: "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

Unscathed, McCain returned to Pensacola Station where he was promoted to flight instructor for Naval Air Station Meridian in Mississippi. The airfield at Meridian, McCain Field, was named in honor of McCain's grandfather.

In 1964 McCain became involved with Carol Shepp, a model from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, he had met at Annapolis. They were married in Philadelphia on July 3, 1965.

Flight instructor McCain lost a third aircraft while flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game. Timberg wrote that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain parachuted onto a beach moments before his plane slammed into a clump of trees.

The Navy dismissed the crash as "unavoidable" and assigned McCain to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal in December 1966, which was patrolling the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. In Spring 1967, the Forrestal was assigned to join the Operation Rolling Thunder bombing campaign against North Vietnam.

McCain lost his fourth plane on board the Forrestal on July 29, 1967 when a rocket inadvertently slammed into his bomb laden jet. McCain escaped, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors. McCain was transferred from the badly damaged Forrestal to the USS Oriskany. Shortly afterwards, on Oct. 26, 1967, he was shot down and captured by the Vietnamese."

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan08/mccain_military_record.ht...

[jazzjunkysue]

37. Thanks for the link, although, I don't know anything about it's validity.

They kick Kerry and Obama around pretty badly on there, too. But the interesting thing is, they really, really hate McCain.

I was thinking that I'd like to know if McCain did actually take any heroic risks, say, for example, of going in voluntarily to rescue others. If this resume is correct, he just flew missions and was shot down.

Ok, ok. Of course he doesn't deserve criticism for serving and surviving unbelievable agony. Of course not.

But he's using it to run on, so that makes it fair for critical evaluation.

Kerry did go on rescue missions at his own risk. Even though he was never captured, he actually took more risks. He was on the ground and in the water under direct fire. I know it's not toally safe to be in a bomber, but, if the GOP can claim that Kerry wasn't a hero, then, how does flying a plane make McCain a hero?

The other important issue is fitness for the job of world leader. That is an entirely legitimate cause for concern. While the McCain campaign claims that his service makes him an indisputable candidated, I disaggree. I think his post traumatic stress, which is widely confirmed in current media snippets, disqualifies him for the job.

No, we should not make an ex-pow a president. He's too emotinally broken to serve in such a stressfull job with so many lives in his hands.

[mitchum]

13. He was dropping bombs to protect Amurikkens from godless communists

[MethuenProgressive]

15. DU is better than this. Isn't it?

Go after the man on his politics.

[Arkansas Granny]

18. Please don't bring John McCain's military service or POW status into the debate.

It was wrong when it was done to John Kerry and Max Cleland and it will be just as wrong to try to use it against McCain. Just don't go there.

[VolcanoJen]

20. Beating McSame on the merits will be easy.

I honor and respect his service and sacrifice to his country, but find his policies and issue positions loathsome.

[PoliticalAmazon]

26. We gain NOTHING by attacking someone who is perceived as a war hero....

This is very bad strategy.

[Jersey Devil]

39. We should not go there

He was a POW and you will piss off a lot of people if you question his service.

[FredScuttle]

41. Yeah.....Torture doesn't work and it is immoral

n/t

[miles 2 go]

42. I wasn't actually trying to make a campaign issue out of anything

I was just wondering if he was a hotshot that caused his own problems that he uses to boost himself up. I really hadn't planned to phone the networks and try to make it an issue. I can and will wonder about whatever the hell I want to. Don't respond if it's such a big deal to any of you. I posted it in this forum only because that's what the instructions said to do.

ALERT THE PRESSES by Gawd!

Thanks to those of you who provided info. or links. That is some of what I was curious about.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Oh for fuck's sake. The guy served, and served honorably and with distinction. No one disputes that.

Maybe we should talk about the policies of his party and the platform he's running on, like the HLA Plank--- which would make the birth control pill illegal.

We already had a Presidential Election where a Vietnam vet's war record was needlessly savaged- that's their game, not ours.

This election isn't about John McCain the POW, it's about John McCain and the GOP.

[Zynx]

47. Stay away from this one. This is best one of those things completely left alone.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

49. Personally, I've no desire to pursue this type of discussion

We have a very good shot at the GE without lowering ourselves to this level. McCain has more than enough faults for us to explore without going in this direction. Which would in my opinion be a huge, HUGE mistake.