In case you missed the memo, John Kerry *IS* the nominee.

[Padraig18]

Some posters apparently slept through the convention, and aren't aware that Sen. Kerry has been officially nominated by our party; the reason I believe this to be true is the nature and content of far too many posts in this forum of a nature which is incompatible with the DU rules regarding posts critical of our nominee, etc. .

Anyone else notice this?

[JohnKleeb]

1. Huh what is today

Its not January is it? just joshing ya, its August.

[Kahuna]

2. LOL! Thanks for the reminder...

:hi:

[Padraig18]

3. You're welcome.

After having held my tongue all week, I thought it was about time to issue a reminder.

:D

[JohnKleeb]

4. well I appreciated it

After all I am wearing pants today, on a southern summer day, maybe I did subconciously think it was January again, you know, I inadvartently put my Giant sweater and hat on ;). Kidding I didnt do that, I know its August.

[sandnsea]

5. Here on the Oregon Coast

We get confused rather easily. It was cool and cloudy yesterday, easily mistaken for a warm January day. I even had to close my windows it got so cold! :)

[JohnKleeb]

6. I was joking but yeah I cant blame ya

Here its unmistakable though. I quit Giant heh 4 months ago.

[sandnsea]

9. Oh me too

Your post was just too funny, cracked me right up!

[JohnKleeb]

11. eh Ive been funnier

You should see me late night in the lounge, thats when I go nuts, how I love to be somewhat bipolar. So do you think Kerry will win Iowa ;)?

[Padraig18]

7. It could be mid-October here now.

High today is 72, tomorrow will be upper 60's. tonights low may be in the 40's. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

:)

[sandnsea]

8. lol, brrrrrr

I can live with that year-round "brrrr". I do wish it were mid-October though! Medford or Portland? I don't think I'm going to go. I've just got way too many things to spend 50 bucks on, I just can't justify the gas right now. :(

[oasis]

10. I'd love to pin this thread to the top of the page if I had a pin thingy.

[Padraig18]

13. Me, too.

Some people just aren't ready to 'move on', and that's OK, as long as they find somewhere else to cry in their cups. Doing so here in no longer appropriate, and that needs to be made CRYSTAL clear to them.

[oasis]

33. I guess a few DUers would rather whine than win. But they'll come around

in time. I just don't want them to have a negative influence on Kerry's soft supporters.

[madfloridian]

12. So we may no longer question the war vote?

That is an honest question.

[Padraig18]

14. Did the opening post say that?

Honest answer.

[madfloridian]

16. Yes, it seemed to say so.

.

[Padraig18]

17. It's quite clear.

There's no 'between the lines' to it; it says what it says, and quite clearly.

[sangh0]

39. Yeah, but it "seems to"

say that you love Bush*. Oh wait! Now it "seems to say" that you hate Bush*.

:crazy:

[JohnLocke]

54. You know, I went back to see if there was any hidden text...

...but I couldn't find any. Strange.

[JohnKleeb]

19. lemme get my glasses on

hmmm no I dont see that. Can I make a simple request that people realize that this election isnt just about the war, Bush fucked up in other things too, like lets see appointing a fundie to protect our rights, btw Kerry rejected that fool, appointing a polluter to protect our environment, Kerry voted against her, Bush gave a thank you tax cut to the rich supporters, Kerry against, Bush let Osama go, Kerry's criticized him on that. Hmm, I think I see Kerry's been more of an opponent of the Bush adminstration than supporter, btw supported the Bush admin 30% of the time in 2003, less than any dem senator as far as I know.

[chiburb]

15. Of course you can. You just can't post crap advocating a vote

for anyone but Kerry. The rules are pretty simple...

[Padraig18]

18. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner, ladies and gentlemen!

Amazing how such a simple concept isn't understood by so many posters, isn't it?

:shrug:

[chiburb]

21. No wonder Jeb can steal Florida and we can deliver Illinois

so easily!

:-)

[Pastiche423]

20. Apparently I missed it

Would you please direct me to the rule that states, "You just can't post crap advocating a vote for anyone but Kerry".

Thank you

[chiburb]

24. Well, there's this:

"At this point in time, only one of two people is going to be President of the United States in January - John Kerry or George W. Bush.

Since this is the case, we would prefer that you don't use our bandwidth to advocate taking votes away from John Kerry. The election is far from a done deal, and another four years of George W. Bush is quite unacceptable."

And this:

"And that said, this is pretty much why DU's current policy is to disallow people from encouraging others to split the progressive vote in November. I respect the fact that you disagree, and I am honestly sorry if you don't like it, but that is the way we wish to run the board right now."

And finally:

"I guess if you are trying to figure out what the boundaries, here's the important part: If you're not voting for Kerry, and if you're trying to get other people to not vote for Kerry, then we would prefer that you not use our website to do so."

All from this forum, though I believe you have the search function too?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=120

[Pastiche423]

93. Uh...

Your link leads to Ask Admins w/none of that verbiage.

Got a link to what you state in your post?

Thanks

[chiburb]

96. Read the forum, it's all there. n/t

[Pastiche423]

98. What forum?

I simply asked where your words were posted by Skinner.

They are either posted or they are not.

Which is it?

[chiburb]

103. Just read Skinner's replies on the front page of ATA

You'll see exactly what I snipped for you.

[madfloridian]

27. So am I ok to differ on the war, but not advocate another vote?

Besides there is no one else to vote for, now is there.

[Padraig18]

29. You can disagree, yes.

You cannot campaign against Kerry, for anyone else, or use DU's bandwidth to advocate that others do so. It's a simple rule, all in all.

[chiburb]

30. See post #24, and thx for keeping Paddy's thread kicked! n/t

[hippiegranny]

44. I just fail to see how

your choice to "differ on the war" changes anything. The reality is simple: Bush or Kerry. You certainly may differ on anything you want, as most of us do. My particular personal issue is that I want to marry my partner. Neither Bush nor Kerry is advocating gay marriage. Fine. There are still 20 other issues to base a vote upon - and 2 of the most important are the two elderly Supremes who are looking to retire, but soon.

The fear many of us have with those who continue to hand wring about Kerry concerning their own hot button issues is that it WILL cause progressive votes to go elsewhere, or it WILL cause some to just throw up their hands in frustration and stay home.

It sounds hysterical, I know, but I believe this literally is THE most important election of our lifetime, to date.

[chiburb]

46. Nicely said, thanks for the contribution.

:-)

[hippiegranny]

99. you're welcome

and thank YOU!

[madfloridian]

51. The war IS a hot button issue. I will vote for Kerry.

I think he is either dead wrong on his vote, or he is not being honest about how he feels.

We donated to Kerry, we will vote for Kerry

[TreasonousBastard]

22. Yeah, but...

I just ignore 'em. Most of the worst ones are gone anyway, crying in their beer about how the perfect candidate was passed over, or never had a chance in the first place. Damn, if I waited for the perfect candidate, I'd never vote.

There just isn't enough time in the day to convert the occasional "visitors," the purists, the disgruntled, and the just plain assholes.

[madfloridian]

25. What am I? Am I one of "the worst ones?" Define, please.

It is as though people are being talked about behind their backs. Only we don't know which people, and how bad they are, and who are the worst ones.

The worst ones? Who are they, please?

[Padraig18]

26. That would be 'calling out', which is against the rules, as well.

Only a fool would answer.

[madfloridian]

28. You could have said I was ok.

This is getting so tiresome. It is like none of us is supposed to think anymore. This board was always about thinking, but now it is about falling in line.

We donated to Kerry, we will vote for Kerry.

[Padraig18]

31. You weren't even in my mind when I posted this.

IfI had know that that soothes you, then I would have said so earlier.

:shrug:

[sangh0]

40. Be honest

Every post is about MadFloridian, so stop pretending you don't know that. :-)

[madfloridian]

42. That was truly insulting.

I will continue to disapprove of this horrible war, and you may continue to make fun of me. That was cutely done.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

55. So you do admit you do it. Thanks.

Your quote:"I'll stop insulting you when you stop flattering yourself""

Much appreciated.

I take it personally when anyone puts down people because of an opinion on such a serious issue as war.

What is your opinion on the war....or anything. You don't post much opinion.

[sangh0]

60. My opinion on the war

is that you understand little about the issue

[madfloridian]

65. Explain the war to me then. I really want to understand all the tragedy.

Please explain it to me. I only have two college degrees, over 30 years of teaching....so I am a little dense on stuff.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

80. If you didn't want the answer

you shouldn't have asked the question

[GreenArrow]

32. "either you are with us or against us"

amazing how that sort of thinking spreads.

[Padraig18]

50. It's the situation, my friend.

Nothing 'amazing' about it, at all. You are either with Kerry, or you are not--- bottom line.

[Egnever]

104. Ok if those are my choices

Then I am not!

[Doomsayer13]

106. hey, it works both ways

Kerry is either a sell out DINO corporate whore pro-war fascist right winger or... not. Nowhere inbetween for some on this forum. Same sort of standard, friend.

[Kahuna]

34. Your ok, MadFloridian... You haven't threatened to defect..

:hi: A lot of us just don't see the use in hammering Kerry's IWR vote. It's done. He can't undo it. So why keep beating a dead horse? :shrug:

[greatauntoftriplets]

109. Because of 900+ dead Americans...

And the gods only know how many dead Iraqis.

War is about killing and death, not nuancing.

[TreasonousBastard]

38. I don't know, are you?

I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that, but now wonder why you are being so defensive. Needless to say, I won't mention just who I might have been thinking of, if anyone in particular. It would put my brother, a moderator, once again in the awkward position of having to deal with alerts against me. The other mods still rag him about the last time.

Anyway, I have my own grave doubts about Kerry, as I did about all of the primary candidates, but they are irrelevant. Kerry is by any standard a far superior candidate to that other guy.

There is discussion, and there is whining about issues long ago dealt with. It is perhaps a fine line to distinguish between the two, but it is my understanding that in this (private!) forum we no longer bash the candidate. Here, we simply support him, warts and all.

There is no lack of other places to continue other discussions.

[madfloridian]

41. Defensive? Because of free thought and free speech.

When you say "There is no lack of other places to continue other discussions," that sounds like I can like it or not. Like sort of an invite to leave.

Am I whining? This war is the major issue right now that is leading this country to bankruptcy and giving huge profits to private companies. And I am not supposed to question?

And I am a whiner if I do? That is very sad.

Oh, as I feel I must put on every post now...

We donated to Kerry and will vote for him.

[sangh0]

43. You aren't just questioning the war and what it costs

You constantly question a vote that happened over a year ago.

ANd yes, if you constantly criticize an act that isn't going to change, and your criticisms have no effect on the world, then yes, you are whining.

If useless criticism isn't whining, then what is?

[madfloridian]

56. I am questioning an issue that is costing untold thousands of lives.

Why aren't you?

You keep on responding to my every post by calling me a whiner. It is getting silly now.

[Padraig18]

61. Kerry is also questioning it.

His criticism has been quite open, and quite precise. Unfortunately, some people (not neccessarily YOU, OK?) have been too busy whining about his reaffirmation of his vote to notice that he has offered VERY detailed and specific criticism of Bush and his minions on what they DID with that authority.

[sangh0]

64. And many ignore what Kerry says

because, like Bush*, they think that "a vote for IWR was a vote for war"

They don't know how to distinguish between IWR and the war. Please note how when I pointed out that MadFloridian repeatedly criticizes Kerry IWR vote, she responded by saying she was criticizing the war. That's because in her mind, the war and IWR vote are the same thing.

[madfloridian]

71. Talk to me in the 1st person, not as a 3rd person.

I am right here.

[sangh0]

74. Don't censor me!!!

I'll say what I want.

[madfloridian]

81. Go right ahead and say what you want.

My goodness, that sounded silly.

[madfloridian]

70. Again, I am whining because I question it? Could you use another word?

Were you at DU in late 2002 and 2003? Are you aware that many of the people backing him up on this were adamantly opposed then?

At least I have my credibility.

If I were griping about abortion, gay marriage, gun control, I may be accused of using a wedge issue....The war is NOT a wedge issue.

[sangh0]

72. No, you are whining when you make futile and useless criticisms

about a year old vote, and try to hide your illogic by pretending that you're criticizing a war, and not a vote.

[Padraig18]

78. No, I will continue to use 'whining'

"whining" is quite appropriate here, because it calls a spade a spade; this is NOT the fall of 2002, and there is absolutely NO point in licking this calf over--- NONE. Continuing to carp upon this one issue is worse than pointless, it is destructive of our purpose at this point.

Nothing could be plainer, IMO, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to agree.

[madfloridian]

82. So we accept all things that happened in the past? Not learn from history

:shrug:

[Padraig18]

83. That's not what I said at all.

I said that it serves no useful purpose at this time to re-hash the IWR question; what's done is done, and we have to live with it--- for now. After Kerry is inaugurated on January 20th, 2005, there will be PLENTY of time to go into how we go about cleaning up the clusterfuck that Bush has turned Iraq into.

[sangh0]

84. If it weren't for the straw men

some people would have nothing to say.

[madfloridian]

85. I disagree.

It does serve a useful purpose to question our leaders. Kerry is our nominee, and we must question him and Edwards and their votes.

[sangh0]

88. And what useful purpose is being served

by constantly dredging up IWR?

[madfloridian]

91. To learn from it? To get Kerry to clarify ?

To learn the truth about whether we are going to Iran or Syria or Libya next?

If we do not learn from history we are condemned to repeat...you know, sort of like groundhog day.

[Padraig18]

92. This is not the time to 'learn from it'.

Kerry has been quite precise about why he voted as he did, and also about how Bush* fucked up the authority the IWR gave him. The only people who are 'benefitting' from this sort of questioning, at this point in time, are the Republicans; can't you see that?

:wtf:

[Padraig18]

90. And this helps get them elected HOW, exactly?

That is the purpose of this exercise we call a campaign, and I'd like to know how questioning our own nominees on this issue at this point in time helps get them elected in November? I await your answer with baited breath...

[madfloridian]

58. I am questioning an issue that is costing untold thousands of lives.

Why aren't you?

[sangh0]

62. IWR didn't cost any lives

and that's the issue you obsess over

It was the war that cost lives, not the IWR vote. Like Bush*, you equate IWR with being "pro-war"

[madfloridian]

67. Yes, I do equate them.

I most certainly do.

[sangh0]

69. I know

and you can't accept the fact that others do not equate the two.

[madfloridian]

73. They are the same.

I am sorry, but they are.

[sangh0]

76. Repeating a lie, won't make it true

I'm sorry, but it's not true

[Kilroy003]

94. Sorry, people are mean sometimes.

I'm not really sure what the hell you guys are talking about with all this war vs. whatever stuff. But I do feel that 'getting in line' isn't what DU or the Democratic party should be about. In fact, my main beef with the Republicans is just that, they always seem to be in lock step. Until they elected (kinda) Mr. Fuckhead I always thought that they were just regular people with different priorites, now that I realize the're ultra-evil assholes hellbent on destroying the world, I feel diferently about them. Why else would anyone vote for B*sh?

There's also the possibility that most Republicans were probably just born idiots and can't help it.

[TreasonousBastard]

102. The question is not the IWR votes...

it is the decision to go to war and the way the war is being mismanaged These had little or nothing to do with Kerry's vote on the matter. These decisions were made entirely by the most inept administration in our history, which had decided to go to war in any case.

Do I agree with the IWR-- no, and I never have, although I understand the votes from those who were lied to.

Do I have anything good to say about this war-- no, and moreover I am actively involved with pacifist movements and draft resistance. I am no more a promoter of this war than any other. Quite a bit less, actually, since this war doesn't even meet Just War standards.

I prefer to put whatever miniscule effect I have upon world events toward a proper resolution to the Iraq mess, and prefer not to expend precious energy on side issues or spreading past blame too widely beyond where it belongs.

I humbly suggest that others might consider doing the same.

[QC]

105. He didn't say a word about you.

You've done the same thing to me before--reply to a general criticism I had made by loudly demanding that I stop making accusations against you when I had actually said nothing about you at all. It's very strange.

I know you will find this very difficult to believe and perhaps even a little bit shocking, but everything is not all about you.

[Bogus W Potus]

23. Nobody missed it, they're just ignoring it

Trying to skirt around the no criticism rule by making side threads with titles like "Should we still vote for Kerry if we're in safe states?", and "Will eating cheese make you fart?".

[Kahuna]

35. Well actually.. The poster of the thread about "safe states" is opposed

to a protest vote this year.

[Bogus W Potus]

36. True, but his thread had a very "interesting" title,

and some people in that thread support voting against Kerry in safe states.

[JohnKleeb]

37. that doesnt do any use

we all have our disagreements, but lemme ask a question before I leave work. If you disagreed with FDR on some things would you vote against him? JFK? Carter? Clinton? Gore?, I know I wouldnt, our differances make us a diverse party, Kerry I think could start to bring back the new deal coalition, its been gone for a while, but I think he can bring it back somewhat.

[WI_DEM]

47. True

but constructive criticism is allowed. I'm not saying bashing. I really haven't seen many posts which are bashing Kerry or Edwards but questioning how Kerry responded to the question dealing with the Iraqi vote. I don't consider that type of thing to be wrong on a discussion board.

[Zhade]

48. Criticism of the nominee is not against the rules.

Dissent is still allowed.

Actively working to DEFEAT Kerry (by, say, organizing ways to get people to vote for b*sh) is against the rules.

I'll continue to criticize Kerry when I damn well please, thank you very much. I feel he has much to be criticized for, even while wanting to get b*sh the hell out of office.

Dissent is American. Don't like it? Too bad. You can always use the Ignore feature.

[bacchant]

49. I gotta go with Zhade on this one

NOBODY is ever going to tell me what to think or how to feel, not even the good folks at DU. We ARE united in the all important goal of ending the Bush administration's reign of terror, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let people point at me and scream "DISRUPTOR" every time I don't goose-step to the party line.

[Padraig18]

52. Nowhere does the opening post say you can't criticize Kerry.

I would like to see the quote where it does say that, if you believe it does.

:eyes:

[sangh0]

53. If it weren't for the straw men

some posters would have nothing to say

[Padraig18]

57. Just so. n/t

[Zhade]

77. I do hope you realize it was an honest mistake, not a straw man.

Hey, even I make mistakes sometimes.

:)

[Padraig18]

79. No blood, no foul....

:hi:

[Zhade]

59. Okay, fair enough. On further reflection, I caught your "nuance".

You were basically saying "you can't post things that are critical in such a way as to work actively to defeat Kerry". I can understand that.

Apologies for overreacting - some DUers (I'm sure you can think of a few) are so adamant to force everyone to shut up and fall in line that I get very wary when it appears people want to stifle legitimate criticism.

So, again, since this was not your intent, my apologies.

[Padraig18]

63. Apology accepted.

I was VERY active in the anti-war movement, and probably for the same reasons most people were; I have NO problem with people criticizing Kerry's vote, but I have a major problem with people who use it as a launching platform for any form of anti-Kerry effort.

:hi:

[Zhade]

66. I AM anti-Kerry - just not yet.

I'm waiting until he's sworn in to really work against the policies I have problems with.

I'm no fool. I know it's either Kerry or the traitor. I don't LIKE it, and I will not remain silent on what I feel is wrong, but I'm not voting for Nader (or b*sh - I'd cut off my own testicles first), and I'm not organizing people to vote against Kerry.

I am simply sharing my feelings and information I have. We're still free to do this, as I know you know.

So, I have no problem with you. I have a problem with many of Kerry's policies, and will work on them once he's in office - because, even though I do not like him, he's still better than b*sh. I don't expect much change from him without us pushing him really hard, but NO amount of pushing will move b*sh.

Fair enough?

:)

[Padraig18]

75. More than fair enough.

I was a Dean supporter first, then an Edwards' supporter after Dean withdrew, so I'm not without qualms about Sen. Kerry myself. Like you, however, I realize that Sen. Kerry is our 'last, best hope', and will save my 'fight' with some of his policies for January 21st, 2005.

Cheers!

:hi:

[Bodybuilding4life]

86. It is dangerous

It is very dangerous to have the rank-in-file attitude that the Democrats are pursuing this year, for one thing I believe it turns some people off.

Also, I believe more than Republicans Democrats need to be more vigilant in keeping candidates in check because of the danger of Democrats of late to try to be too centered and alienating their base.

Anyway, sometimes being critical spurns intelligent debate, which I Always thought was a good thing.

[calico1]

87. Yes, fair enough.

That is just the point. For people who have a problem with Kerry, the time to start acting on it is after the election. Right now the priority should be getting the evil one out. Nothing Kerry has done can compare to what we will face with 4 more years of Bush.

[greenohio]

89. Indecision

With the announcement yesterday that Kerry would still have voted to go into Iraq, I think there are many progressives who were using that as a deciding factor (including myself). Some are now soul searching here. Don't boot us or beat us up too hard because we don't walk the strict party line.

Besides, as a challenger, Kerry is in excellent shape. A challenger ahead at this point in the race has the odds greatly in his favor. Include that Bush can't string a sentence together, the jobs report, and a very motivated base from an awesome convention and you have some space to address the wavering rather than ostracize them.

[unfrigginreal]

95. No, I hadn't noticed

I have noticed a lot of call to the herd posts bemoaning criticism of Kerry. There is an alternative to whining about it, you could alert the mods if you think a post is breaking the rules.

[Padraig18]

97. Thanks for the advice.

I had forgotten all about the 'Alert' function; must have been traumatic amnesia from all those I had to deal with as a Moderator the term just past...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

107. I've not sone that.

That may be your perception, but that doesn't make it so.

[ulysses]

101. yes,

but unless the rules have been changed since I looked at them last, criticism is still allowed.

[Padraig18]

108. Yes, *criticism* is still allowed.

But quite a bit of what's passing for 'criticism' is little more than thinly-veiled attacks upon the nominee, which are NOT permitted.

:hi:

[Cuban_Liberal]

110. Just browsing through the replies here, one thing is pretty clear:

Quite a few posters have an agenda that has nothing to do with getting John Kerry elected. If the shoe fits, etc. ...

:eyes: