Gore Vidal suggests African American violence of Obama doesn't get the nomination.

[Elspeth]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article3952774.ece

"In his view Barack Obama has won; and if the nomination is taken away from him, “I fear what our black population might do. There has never been a revolution of blacks – yet”.


I find this to be a very racist sentiment, yet no one has commented on in it, even though the thread has been in LBN awhile: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=359917&mesg_id=359917

So, is this racist? Shades of Los Angeles 1992?

[book_worm]

1. Sometimes Gore Vidal is an ass.

[The Magistrate]

Nailed It In One, Sir....

[dchill]

109. USUALLY Gore Vidal is an ass...

but that does not preclude his being right, occasionally.

[Elspeth]

136. You think he's right on this one?

?

[dchill]

140. Put it this way - the Clintons are using race and gender...

in some very un-subtle and specious ways to achieve their desired goal, and should they be able to disrupt the convention - or even to drag their invalid claims out until the convention, then a lot of people of every color (I call them Democrats) are going to be very upset - to put it mildly.

If it appears that Clinton has stolen the nomination - i.e. by claiming a false victory in the non-valid popular vote, and the DNC validates that, then yes, Vidal could be right - after a fashion - but I believe that it won't just be black people rioting. So it wouldn't be "African-American" voilence. It would be more like a revolution.

[Elspeth]

143. It also sounds like a recipe for martial law

Yeah, a little :tinfoilhat:, but we know preparations have been made. They just need an excuse.

[Thrill]

2. Yeah because thats all black people know how to do. What a fuking insult

I bet black Americans are probably shocked by what they've heard out of Democrats mouths this primary

[genna]

46. Shocked is an overstatement. I think gratified is a better word choice.

I bet black Americans are probably shocked by what they've heard out of Democrats mouths this primary

I don't speak for all black people for one.
Two I don't think Gore Vidal speaks for all people like him.

I do however think the Dems have shown us all what they stand for in this primary: the good, the bad, and the frightful. Obama doesn't have 2 black parents and has let it be known he doesn't have 2 black parents and is still being treated to the full monty.


Welcome to 2008 where the spin is true.

[Elspeth]

111. What does Obama's parentage have to do with anything?

?

[FredScuttle]

151. It means Malcolm X's old line:

You know what they call a black man with a Ph.D?

A nigger.

[Elspeth]

157. Not sure how that fits the question that was asked

The previous poster mentioned Obama's mixed race parentage. I was curious why that had anything to do with Vidal's comment, which is not about Obama at all, but about African Americans as a whole.

[hokies4ever]

88. Most blacks will probably forgive Hillary after a while

I know that I will. The MSM keeps calling her a fighter for the people. Well, I'm a black man in my late 20's and the last thing that I would describe Hillary as is a fighter for people like me. I'll be thrown under the bus if that's what it takes for her to be President.

However, I do realize that she doesn't REALLY believe the things that she and her campaign have been saying. She's just saying these things to get elected. Sure, that sounds despicable, but I think that's what she's doing. It must suck to be this close to the presidency only to have it disappear right in front of your eyes. Once the campaign ends she will realize what she did was wrong. I have forgiveness waiting for her when her sincere apology comes along the way. :patriot:

[genna]

98. My forgiveness is hers. I will never forget.

I don't care why she baiting white fears about black people. I know she is intentionally doing it. I think she ought to pay for it so the next race baiting Democratic contender knows what the consequence of misusing black people is.

I think those consequences should be along the lines of having NO LEADERSHIP POSITION IN THE SENATE. I think Charlie Rangel should freeze her out in the NY delegation to Congress. I also think NYC should run a candidate against her in the next Senate contest.


I think you will be waiting long and hard for that sincere apology.

Read some of Randall Robinson's thoughts on Bill Clinton's administration. They are not progressives.

[ellacott]

101. Randall Robinson is the one who opened my eyes to the Clintons

[ShortnFiery]

146. Randall Robinson will not ... and neither will I. In fact, many of us hard working WHITES will ...

be out in the streets with our AA neighbors if "The Clintons" steal this Nomination. BANK ON IT!


It's all that "spade work" Atwater type Southern Strategy that have clearly revealed The Clintons as both BIGOTS and RACISTS. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oRwZQLdhEw

Adherence to the rule of law is not something normally associated with the clintons. Moreover, racial and ethnic disrespect, intimidation, exploitation and hate have always been a fundamental clinton tactic and the reflexive use the "N"-word and other racial and ethnic slurs, an essential element in the clinton lexicon. When the "first black president" and his wife ran Arkansas, the NAACP sued them for intimidating black voters at the polls.

Conversely, the clintons' refinement of the DNC drag and drop is, arguably, one of the more insidious and repugnant applications of their special brand of race-hate politics.

[hokies4ever]

166. I'm not worried at all, Hilllary won't win

I have faith in the superdelegates to do the right thing. They're people just like you and me. I guarantee you that some of them are just staying silent so that they can see Hillary's true colors through and through.

[democracy1st]

181. hugs short I've been looking for that video,the others were pulled recently

[ShortnFiery]

199. You're most welcome.

:toast:

[SwampG8r]

201. when i noted here

that youtube removes video that makes the truth of the clintons visible i was flamed off my own thread by her "supporters" (or is it "enablers?")
she is what she has shown us
vile and corrupt

[livingmadness]

164. At one time I would have agreed ...

but I've been listening to a lot of radio (KPHX/Air America), and almost without fail, the STRONGEST objections to a VP spot for Hillary are coming from African American callers. Again and again, I've been hearing it on practically every show, the level of outrage and disgust is being hinted at in the media, but doesn't even come close IMO. Now, of course this doesn't mean ALL African Americans will think this way, but I think the quiet rage that so often characterizes the black struggle, is simmering now for Mrs Clinton. So very sad, but I believe she's done it herself, or allowed it to be done for the sake of her success.

Gore Vidal's comments just provide yet another example of why.

[hokies4ever]

168. I also don't want Hillary as the V.P.

Why reward her for her misdeeds? Deny her the V.P. spot and let her ponder what happened. Sometimes people need to be taught a life lesson. I guess that speech in 2002 gave Obama some balls to deny you the V.P. spot huh, Hillary? :rofl:

[Doityourself]

200. Count this black woman in as adamantly opposed to her as VP...

[Butch350]

211. 88. Most blacks will probably forgive Hillary after a while

This AA male will not! You just don't play to racists in a campaign for a vote. It breaks my heart to see AA voters standing
behind Hillary in those campaign tv spots while she and bill play the race card to win votes. I'm sorry but I'm not
that forgiving. At one time I was the biggest fan of Hillary and Bill. Now their are pitiful.

[mystieus]

3. Gore Vidal is an ass.

[reflection]

4. I haven't trusted Gore Vidal since

he left Dingo and the Baby standing there like fools in the studio that day.

($1 to anyone who gets that reference)

[Tunkamerica]

34. family guy

[SwampG8r]

203. i got it i got it

family guy
donate the dollar to the DNC please?

[reflection]

213. You got it g8r

I may even donate another dollar in a show of solidarity for your "huge ass" thread that got locked. :D

[SwampG8r]

216. huh .... uhhhh ...... ummmmm. .....well. ........uhhhhh

:toast:
:shrug:

[nxylas]

5. I'd like to read his full comments, in context

Bear in mind that the Times is a Murdoch rag, and I don't trust it not to deliberately misrepresent Vidal's views.

[Elspeth]

8. That was a direct quote and the article is at the link in the OP

I read the whole thing and this quote struck me as really racist.

[nxylas]

Yes, but direct quotes can be taken out of context

It's like the media painting Jeremiah Wright as the man who said "God damn America" without giving any insight as to why he said it or what he meant by it. Murdoch's journalistic mantra is taken from Elwood Blues: "It wasn't lies, it was just...bullshit".

[Elspeth]

81. Well, go ahead and read the article. It's at the link.

Maybe you can see something else in the article that leads you to a different interpretation.

[nxylas]

83. I read the article

My point is, we don't know what else Vidal said in the interview that Murdoch and his minions chose not to publish. With the example of Wright that I gave, one could at least see the unedited video on YouTube and see the parts of the sermon that the M$M chose not to show us. With a newspaper interview, no such chance to see Vidal's full, unedited comments exists.

[Elspeth]

112. I can't base context on what DIDN'T appear in the article. I can only go with what was there.

I'm not disagreeing with your general point that details and quotes in news articles can be chosen from a larger transcript for effect. But I have no evidence of anything in this specific instance and can only go with what appeared. Vidal has been interviewed numerous time and should know to avoid statements like this, if indeed he intended to.

[nxylas]

116. That's why I no longer trust the corporate media

Unless I can see a full transcript or other primary source (like a video), I know that any information presented to me will be filtered through the distorting lens of corporate hegemony.

[Elspeth]

134. But Vidal should have been more careful

It reminds me--sorry to say--of Rush Limbaugh saying that the Democratic Convention will be another 1968. Vidal's statement is not nearly as inflammatory--I'm not saying that. But I am saying it was a careless one to throw out there, especially to a Murdoch publication. He of all people should know what the corporate media does with stuff.

[nxylas]

162. I agree, up to a point

But I think we as a society have a collective responsibility to say "I ain't buying what the corporate media is selling". We're living in the information age, and it should no longer be possible for the likes of Murdoch to deceive us without our consent.

[Elspeth]

172. Why is it that Vidal's comment is the fault of the corporate media, but other comments

by other people are not?

It amazes me what people will do to let those they like off the hook, while jumping on comments the corporate media reports on other people having said.

[nxylas]

183. I never trust anything I read until I've verified it from a primary source

It's the golden rule for me.

[Elspeth]

184. So when the Clintons are accused of racism, do you wait for the primary source?

Not a challenge just a question.

[nxylas]

206. If a newspaper story were to say "Bill Clinton said..." (for example)

Then I would want to see video or a transcript of the full interview to make sure that he wasn't being quoted out of context, yes.

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Lucky for him, Obama has pretty much already won the nomination.

The only place that Hillary has a "chance" is inside the heads of her most deluded die-hard circle.

[msallied]

7. Yikes.

Statements like this piss me off. If I were black, I'd be beyond insulted.

Yeah, those Negroes and their violent, savage ways. We better appease 'em if we don't want 'em riotin' in the streets.

[Elspeth]

13. That was how it hit me.

The rest of the article is not too bad, but this thing just stuck out.

[ellacott]

17. I didn't take it that way

[Elspeth]

18. How did you take it?

Just curious.

[ellacott]

32. I just thought he was giving his opinion

Some of the recent events actually make it understandable how he came to that conclusion. There are 4 big cases of police brutality that isn't getting much media attention and many blacks are very angry about it. There are a lot of tensions building up. I think since he thinks like a writer this is just something he invisions.

[Elspeth]

57. his opinion is that African Americans will resort to violence.

That is what lives in his imagination. Wouldn't you say that assumption is racist?

[ellacott]

63. No, because of the frustrations that I have posted

[msallied]

69. "revolution of blacks." Those were his words. C'mon now.

[Elspeth]

74. So what you're saying is that African Americans may become violent because of frustrations

and that it is not racist for Vidal to assume that African Americans would become violent.

[ellacott]

85. No, I really don't think it's racist

Maybe we have a different definition of the word.

I will tell you that there is a lot of frustration and it's been going on for a few years(that quiet riot that Obama spoke about). As he said, the cover's been pulled off after Katrina. Combine that with many of the cases of police brutality where you have the police covering it up; the housing crisis where any blacks were redlined into sub-prime loans when their credit history should have qualified them for a conventional loan and how many of these people are at risk of losing their homes. There are many other things that are at boiling points.

It's not racist to me.

[Elspeth]

171. You have to be careful with definitions. Racism has a specific one:

racism

NOUN:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.


The first of these is the one I think the Vidal comment falls under. Perhaps you are referring to the second?

[Doityourself]

204. It's degrading. Period. Blacks will riot in the streets because of simmering frustrations..and

other misdeeds, perceived or otherwise.

Hide your wife and kids, and lock up the china..the Colored Folks are coming...

[dchill]

141. Perhaps he's just being blunt.

From the linked article:

<snip>

As for Obama, Vidal has taken time to warm to him. “I liked the idea of him, but he never managed to get my interest. I was brought around by his overall intelligence – specifically when he did his speech on race and religion.”

<snip>

That doesn't strike me as the product of racism. I think that Vidal just has an opinion - a favorable one - of Obama, and that is a rare thing. Just read what he thought of the Kennedys.

[Elspeth]

174. The comment in the OP was not about Obama: it was about African Americans in general

That is why it smacks of racism: it is stereotyping and classifying a whole people.

[dchill]

189. "it is stereotyping" - Yes, it is...

And the truth is that we all do it, from time to time. Good point. I don't think it's the same thing as racism, though. Stereotyping is an intellectual weakness that stands on its own demerit.

[Elspeth]

191. Stereotyping based on the race of a person IS the very definition of racism.

Racism is the belief that a particular race has particular traits (usually negative ones), that every member of that race has those traits, and that those traits are a justification for keeping that race down.

Vidal's comment is embedded in the old stereotype that African Americans are violent and can't help being violent because of their race. (Never mind the violence of the European world or that the most dangerous weapons we have ever known were invented by white Americans and Europeans.)

I have heard the word racism spread about throughout this entire primary, and some of the time, it wasn't really a matter of racism but a matter of disagreement on facts. THIS comment by Vidal, however, IS racism. My fear is that people are so accustomed to calling minor disagreements "racism" that they can't recognize the real thing when they see it.

[IndyOp]

9. I'll be happy to join in so long as it isn't violent. I am AA if I judge by most surveys...

Whenever I look at surveys that divide our population into "white" and "AA" - I am AA. My skin is just a little pale.

I find Vidal's juxtaposition of "fear" and "what our black population might do" to be unfortunate, though not quite racist - perhaps more a recognition of the depth of the wounds inflicted by the nation on AA's and Native Americans and Japanese during WWII.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. White fear is caused, I think,

by the guilty knowledge of the brutal injustice done to Africans forced to this country and their descendants.

[IndyOp]

79. Yes. Vidal speaks the fear aloud, other truly racist people join white power organizations

and accuse Jeremiah Wright of being a black supremacist.

There is no way to have an honest conversation about abuses of power without inflicting and suffering some pain.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

105. And the pain from slavery is something that lingers

passed on and exacerbated by the way blacks are still treated in this country. I have felt this in some black folk with whom I have worked. And yes, I feel guilty and bad about the fact that I had ancestors who owned slaves. I cannot go back in time and change things, but I can try to see beyond color. I can try to make sure that I show by my actions that I don't discriminate, and I can try to see all people as my brothers and sisters.

[Butch350]

212. 88. Most blacks will probably forgive Hillary after a while

Don't feel embaraased about the past. I am an AA I don't hold you accountable or are any member of the white race who lived in the
times of slavery. It's in the american past. We have moved on. I am positive there were many good whites who saw
slavery and the disgusting treatment of people as being wrong. It's not the persons color that makes them undesirable,
it's what in the heart and how they act upon it!

[Elspeth]

35. See, I think this one statement is more racist than anything I've heard during the primary

It truly assigns negative behavior to a particular race.

[IndyOp]

84. I hesitate to say that Vidal "assigns" violent behavior to one race -

Gore Vidal is a tremendously thoughtful man. I think he sees and speaks aloud about a potential for violence among AA's. I think he also has seen and spoken aloud about the same potential for violence among other groups -- gays, people who've long suffered from economic disadvantage...

Gore Vidal and James Baldwin were very close friends for decades and I don't believe Vidal is racist.

There is no way to have a conversation about racism without inflicting and suffering some pain - people with good hearts and good intentions and honorable experience can misspeak or be misinterpreted.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt on this statement, though I can certainly understand if you read it differently than I.

Peace.

[Elspeth]

114. But if someone you didn't like had said the same thing, you'd have given NO leeway.

It's the statement itself that is problematic, and to choose to ignore racism in the statement of someone you like but trumpet (or exaggerate it) in the statements of someone you don't like does a disservice to the real fight against racism.

Vidal was wrong here and needs to apologize.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Racist I think

Now I could understand why folks got upset when King was assassinated in '68. But even then, violence was kept down, mainly by black leaders. I don't see Obama being denied the nomination--too much momentum. However, we need to be prepared for every dirty trick in the book this fall. Personally, I think if the GE is stolen from us again, it will be more than just blacks who will be upset.

[Elspeth]

16. But peaceful protest gets ignored, like all the anti-war protests before the Iraq invasion

Violence, however, will bring down martial law.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. Martial law is what Bush wants

then he becomes the dictator he's always dreamed of becoming.

[Elspeth]

170. That's what I am afraid of

..

[cali]

11. First of all you thread title is borderline illiterate and totally misleading

Gore Vidal did NOT suggest that "African American violence "of" Obama.." anything. What does that even mean? Secondly, Gore's suggestion that there would be violence is simply an opinion with NO evidence at all.

[cali]

12. First of all your thread title is borderline illiterate and totally misleading

Gore Vidal did NOT suggest that "African American violence "of" Obama.." anything. What does that even mean? Secondly, Gore's suggestion that there would be violence is simply an opinion with NO evidence at all.

[Qutzupalotl]

30. I think the OP meant to type "if"

[Elspeth]

173. Yes. I would have changed it, but sometimes it's best to just let things be.

..

[ellacott]

14. I don't think it's racist

I'm not sure if he's correct but I don't think it's racist.

[msallied]

22. What it does do is assume pretty awful things about blacks.

That they will riot in the streets if they don't get what they want. It always comes back to that Rodney King bullshit, which was no a reflection on the black population as a whole so much as a demonstration of the psychological phenomenon of the mob mentality, a phenomenon that whites are just as prone to as blacks.

[ellacott]

37. What it does assume is that blacks are very invested in this election

There are lot of tensions in parts of the black community for various reasons.

It's not that much out of the question. I've heard this opinion coming from some in the black community also.

[Elspeth]

40. It assumes a violent (or at least frightening) reaction by African Americans if Obama doesn't get to

run.

[msallied]

44. There is a difference between being "invested" and being uncivilized.

I'd consider myself very invested in this election too. Doesn't mean I'm going to set a car on fire if Obama loses. I'll find more healthy ways to direct my ire.

[Elspeth]

38. But isn't that quintessential racism? Assuming negative behavior based soley on race?

Connecting race with "inevitable" behavior--that is racism.

[ellacott]

47. Great question

I am only giving my opinion but I think it would be racism if they assumed that the negative behavior was inherent within the people of that race. Sort of like nature vs. nurture.

I see the frustation that is evident in many Blacks as situational and not inherent. I don't think he's saying that blacks are naturally more violent but they are getting increasingly frustrating.

When Obama began his campaign he talked about a quiet riot. I agree with him.
This is a link about his remarks
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PIUO380&show_article=1

[msallied]

53. Peaceful protest is fine and should even be expected

And I will be first in line to participate. But saying they are going to riot in the streets is attributing negative behavior to a race of people simply because their fellow black candidate lost.

[ellacott]

90. It's not simply because their candidate lost

It would be a culmination of things.

[Basement Beat]

19. Is he saying we are the only ones who want to see...

fairness?
Is he saying we are the only ones who would be willing to stand up and not let our votes be disregarded?
Is he saying that we were the only ones who voted for Obama? Who invested time and hope into his camp?

I surely hope that all of us can stand together if in fact the powers that be snatch away a person with much support from ALL people.
Not only is it a horrible stereotype he's referring to...by saying the only way we can react is through violence...but its also rediculously foolish to make it seem that we, Black people are the only ones invested in democracy.

[Elspeth]

42. Those implications can all be drawn from the article.

They are not true, of course, but they can be drawn.

[genna]

92. Black leaders have been fairly mild mannered during this primary news cycle and have not en masse

Not only is it a horrible stereotype he's referring to...by saying the only way we can react is through violence...but its also rediculously foolish to make it seem that we, Black people are the only ones invested in democracy.

done anything upsetting, corrupting, or pressuring.

Al Sharpton has kept his mouth shut.
Jesse Jackson has done little to discourage the Clintons from cracking up.
Other civil rights era leaders: Joseph Lowry and others have made their voices scarce.


They have removed themselves from the national scene on election primary issues. Even the NAACP where Rev. Wright spoke did not have numbers of pastors who came out looking for microphone to talk about the black church or the black experience.


You compare the black establishment to the organizations who support HRC and you will see a drastic difference.


If that meeting were next week, we still wouldn't see what Gore Vidal is talking about advocated on television nor would we see people saying we need to go in that direction.


It makes so much more sense to say that Vidal made his opinion known, no one is talking about it for good reason, and we're going forward.

He continues: “I’d always rather liked her. She’s a perfectly able lawyer . . . But this long campaign, this daily search for the grail, has driven her crazy.”

In his view Barack Obama has won; and if the nomination is taken away from him, “I fear what our black population might do. There has never been a revolution of blacks – yet”.


During the Clinton administration, Vidal admired Bill’s understanding of the poor and of black people. His devotion to the Clintons has now been laid aside, however. By clinging on to her campaign, waiting for the small chance that Obama will make a terminal mistake, Hillary has crossed a line, he believes.

[NatBurner]

20. yes, "the Blacks" are having a meeting next tuesday

to decide on a course of action in case obama loses the nom

we'll get back to u on that one, gore

and if we don't, just ask any ol' Black u see walking around since we all know each other :/

******* removed

i can be civilized in my sarcasm

[mkultra]

27. christ

now i need check my mail for the invite.

[reflection]

31. self delete

someone was bound to take offense

[NatBurner]

45. i didn't :)

and i ususally enjoy gore vidal, but he's a little off on this one

[ShortnFiery]

150. Psst! Please remind Barack to not scratch his face with his index finger? Some WHITES

get afraid that he may be flashing a "gang signal." :crazy:

[mkultra]

23. dont know about racists but its sure dangerous and irresponsible

[Bullet1987]

24. There actually a kernal of truth to this...but just a kernal

No, there won't be all-out war...lol. But there will be so many pissed of Blacks that most will not vote (Obama is not getting 90% of the Black vote for nothing). Blacks and Women are the two strongest bases of the Dem Party. If one of them leaves en masse, then the Dems lose.

[Qutzupalotl]

25. I don't see it as racist.

There is some historical precedent suggesting the level of outrage that could appear: 1992, as you said.

If Obama is denied the nomination, I think blacks might well see it as being due to racism.

But I do not see the outrage as being only from blacks; all Obama supporters would cry foul.

[msallied]

33. 1992 was not an event unique to black people.

In 1999, I saw scores of white people tear apart downtown Seattle during the WTO thing. PEOPLE (not just blacks) get caught up in the mob mentality pretty easily, especially when they feel there is an injustice going on.

[Qutzupalotl]

43. As I said, I think all Obama supporters would be outraged.

But the issue is nearer to the hearts of African-Americans, so one would expect their outrage to be higher.

[msallied]

49. Yes, so they're going to start looting, right?

[Qutzupalotl]

56. No, but they sure might protest.

[msallied]

62. Well, duh! But "fearing" what they have a "revolution" is taking it a step beyond

merely protesting, wouldn't you say?

[Qutzupalotl]

99. Yes, but you're putting the word "looting" in his mouth

(or mine). He didn't say that.

[Doityourself]

207. Ah but was the Seattle dance called a RIOT? Language makes a huge difference.

[Elspeth]

41. But Vidal doesn't say "Obama supporters"; he says only "Blacks"

It is amazing to me that this blatantly racist statement is getting a pass from you, while so many little statements that weren't racist were torn apart and their speakers vilified.

Assuming violence based on race IS racist.

[mkultra]

50. to be racists or sexists, it must perpetuate a sterotype.

which one do you think this perpetuates?

[msallied]

55. That blacks are violent savages.

[mkultra]

78. except that he states theve never done it.

[msallied]

82. "Yet." Never done it, "yet."

[Qutzupalotl]

54. I don't think he was saying blacks are more violent.

I think he feels that the outrage would be stronger in the black community than elsewhere, which seems reasonable to me.

[msallied]

60. "I fear what the black population may do. There has never been a revolution of blacks--yet."

I don't think your summation of the statement matches the sentiment of the statement. "Fear" what they might do. "Revolution." Those are both terms that suggest that the black community would turn violent if Obama lost.

[Qutzupalotl]

70. We were founded on a revolution.

And not all revolutions are violent. I think you are reading too much into his statement.

[msallied]

75. Now you're simply being obtuse.

"I fear what they may do."

Why would he fear a non-violent protest? Jeez!

[Qutzupalotl]

97. Because non-violent protests can be effective.

Think transit strike.

[BobbyVan]

67. It's racist because it assumes blacks will react with violence.

[panader0]

26. How old is he now?

He probably has old-timers disease. (Not to defend his statement, I just don't think he carries much weight anymore)

[Elspeth]

29. Somewhere in his 80s. But he gets quoted a lot on DU

and talks about the shadow government.

[Freddie Stubbs]

71. 87

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gore_Vidal

[Laughing Mirror]

100. 82

[msallied]

28. I lived in Seattle during the WTO riots.

Pissed off Whitey is just as capable of tearing up the streets as any African American. Vidal is making an unfair stereotype here.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. No shit. White people riot over sporting events all over the world.

I remember there was a big one in Canada over some hockey game a few years ago. I doubt there were many black people involved.

[msallied]

66. I've been to two OSU Buckeyes games.

And after both, which were wins even, the masses went wild. What happens when you get 100,000 excited people together, black or white.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

73. People will do things as part of a large group that they'd never do on their own. nt

[msallied]

80. Exactly. Mob mentality.

[martymar64]

169. I lived in LA in 92 - all races were out in the streets, I was too.

It was only blacks that got the media attention. But white people and latinos were rioting as well. It wasn't just about Rodney King.

Things were fucked up all over and the trial and that hijo de la puta Darryl Gates was the straw that broke thew camels back.

[anigbrowl]

36. the thread titles assumes violence. There are other methods of revolution.

[Elspeth]

39. What other kind of revolution would VIdal "fear" so much?

..

[anigbrowl]

52. Stop voting. Hold a hunger strike on the national mall. For example.

Use your imagination.

[Elspeth]

64. Why would these options cause Vidal to be "afraid"? (Check the quote).

Neither of these options would cause a drastic reaction in most people.

[Qutzupalotl]

102. Nonviolent protests could disrupt the economy,

delivery of goods or services, and a violent backlash from law enforcement.

BTW, he says he fears for his country about a lot of things.

[Raineyb]

158. Because the government has been known to crack down on peaceful protesters

with violence. And since the police have never been friends of black people the potential for bodies piling up is not unsubstantial.

That is, of course one interpretation.

Regards

[Elspeth]

161. Then it would be the police that Vidal feared; but he doesn't say that at all.

..

[anigbrowl]

190. It's open-ended.I'm not losing sleep of what he meant

If I absolutely totally had to know, I'd write him a letter. As it is, I can live with the ambiguity.

[Elspeth]

193. Why is it that people call everything racism except the real thing?

Racism is the belief that a particular race has particular traits (usually negative ones), that every member of that race has those traits, and that those traits are a justification for keeping that race down.

Vidal's comment is embedded in the old stereotype that African Americans are violent and can't help being violent because of their race. (Never mind the violence of the European world or that the most dangerous weapons we have ever known were invented by white Americans and Europeans.)

I have heard the word racism spread about throughout this entire primary, and some of the time, it wasn't really a matter of racism but a matter of disagreement on facts. THIS comment by Vidal, however, IS racism. My fear is that people are so accustomed to calling minor disagreements "racism" that they can't recognize the real thing when they see it.

[DemVet]

76. Yeah, those will work.

:eyes:

[Laughing Mirror]

48. For goodness sakes!

You obviously have never read or listened to Gore Vidal. If you see racism in anything he writes or says, it must be projected racism. It is not coming from him.

[Elspeth]

61. No, this statement really IS racist: and if McCain had said it, you'd be all over him.

Just because someone has a reputation as a liberal doesn't mean that they aren't secretly racist. My African American sister-in-law will tell you that some of the most racist people she ever met were liberals.

[ShortnFiery]

148. "...some of the most racist people she ever met were liberals."

Especially *some* WEALTHY white liberals. I've met some in my community that are DRIPPING with wealth and self-righteous attitudes.

It's sloven and disgusting ... I have more respect to the red-necks living from hand to mouth on the other side of the county BECAUSE, they are *genuine.*

[CBGLuthier]

51. and another liberal voice gets ground by the wheels of the parsing idiots.

[Elspeth]

58. No, this really IS racism, unlike a lot of other comments that weren't

He is assuming that African Americans will resort to some kind of violence or frightening action if Obama doesn't get the nomination.

[genna]

95. Elspeth say what you see in the statement is there: that liberal is racist

What should be done about it?

What will Gore Vidal's opinion change?


The MSM has been focused on women's reaction to Obama. They have not pointed the camera at black people's reaction to both Clintons or what they will do about the situation.

I think that is intentional for a variety of reasons.

Here Gore Vidal is speculating like I've heard Chris Matthews stop short of asking. Once you get an answer from a certain number of blacks WHAT WOULD AMERICA DO WITH THAT RESPONSE? not vote for Obama because the blacks on channel 7 they'd do x, y, and z.

There is no need to harp on this topic. What can we do about it if everything you indicate about liberals and the statement are true?

[Elspeth]

106. I think it's important that people recognize real racism when they see it

I have seen many things called racism on this board--many things that do not deserve to be called racism. But this statement IS, and so many just want to ignore that it is.

[ellacott]

107. I think what's most important is to listen to those that might have some insight

It's unfortunate that you feel certain that THIS statement was racist. No one is trying to ignore it. He's not saying that blacks would get violent because that's their nature. That would be racist. I really wish you take time to consider this.

It's unfortunate that you weren't able to see many of the previous comments as racially divisive.

This just proves that there still are problems communicating. I tell what I hear from my own community but you don't believe it because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

This has been interesting but also somewhat disappointing.

[Elspeth]

108. There has been a communitcation problem, mostly a result of your elliptical speech

and my inability to fill in gaps with information and opinions that are clearly in your own mind but which you have failed to explain well. Every time I think I have pieced together your partial comments into a coherent whole, you go off in another direction, once again not giving adequate information.

Before you accuse others of communication problems, you need to address your own.

[ellacott]

110. Tell me where I'm incoherent

Well I wouldn't know there were any problems with my communication unless someone told me. That's how this thing works. I'm really trying to communicate with you. What is it that you don't understand?

[Elspeth]

129. Thank you for finally coherently answering a post.

Start with your first answer to me and work your way down.

[ellacott]

182. I've tried to be respectful to you

I see it was a wasted effort. Not surprised, just disappointed.

My first response:
"I'm not sure if he's correct but I don't think it's racist."

How is that incoherent?

Again, give me some specifics or let's just agree to disagree.

[Elspeth]

187. And I've tried to understand you.

It has been a wasted effort. Not surprised, just disappointed.

[ellacott]

188. If you truly couldn't understand that's not my problem

It's hard to believe this went over your head. I think it's really because I don't agree with you. No problem.

What's hilarious is your reaction. Too funny.

[Elspeth]

192. Glad you found me amusing. Now let me teach you something.

Racism is the belief that a particular race has particular traits (usually negative ones), that every member of that race has those traits, and that those traits are a justification for keeping that race down.

Vidal's comment is embedded in the old stereotype that African Americans are violent and can't help being violent because of their race. (Never mind the violence of the European world or that the most dangerous weapons we have ever known were invented by white Americans and Europeans.)

I have heard the word racism spread about throughout this entire primary, and some of the time, it wasn't really a matter of racism but a matter of disagreement on facts. THIS comment by Vidal, however, IS racism. My fear is that people are so accustomed to calling minor disagreements "racism" that they can't recognize the real thing when they see it.

[ellacott]

210. Teach me something, Oh please

Get the fuck out of here with that garbage. I know what racism is. I have lived through it. Me family has lived through that. I am Black and I know what people are saying. You are so arrogant that you think you are teach me something about racism.

You're going to teach me about racism? How pathetic.

Let ME school you. Many blacks also believe that there will be rioting if this is stolen from Obama. You know how I know it? Because I've talked to them, they are in my family. A black commentator even said the same thing on Hardball last week.

Again(pay attention), Gore Vidal didn't say this because he assumed that all black people are inherently violent. Do you know what inherently means? He's saying it because many blacks are frustrated and that frustration has the potential to come to a head.


Again, since you can't seem to grasp this, I don't believe he was saying that we are naturally violent and that's the only way we know how to respond. What I feel that he's saying is that black folks are tired of seeing white folks move the bar and taking things from them.

If you want to have a talk about race relations and racism we can do that but please spare me this patroninzing lecture regarding something that I live with everyday.

[nsd]

65. Gore Vidal?

What the hell does he know about anything?

[Exultant Democracy]

68. I think Vidal may be way off on this, but it would make an already tense racial situation worse

and in the environment that would result we could see a situation where if in November there is a repeat of Florida/Ohio and after that a rash of police killing black men holding cell phones and then being set free by the courts... well things don't need help getting worse. (Not to mention that all of a sudden the noose is back what is that about?)

[screembloodymurder]

No

It's the rule of law come home to roost.

[NashVegas]

72. I Think What You're Reading Into It Is Racist

In his view Barack Obama has won; and if the nomination is taken away from him ...

[Elspeth]

77. No, I think the racism is there, especially in the word choices

And I wonder why he would choose to say something like that.

[NashVegas]

120. Because He Has a Point

People who believe Obama has already won - regardless of their skin color - will be the Dem version of the Brooks Brothers riot if Hillary winds up with the nomination.

[Elspeth]

160. But he doesn't mention the white Obama voters. That's why Vidal's comment is racial

If he had simply said that Obama's supporters would be out protesting in the streets if he didn't get the nomination, that would have not been a racial comment, and certainly not for Vidal. But he singled out the AFrican American supporters and that to me is a racist focus.

[jaysunb]

86. I really like Gore Vidal, but,

he's way off base here.

[stellanoir]

87. I've respected Gore Vidal for a very long time

yet not only do I not think that Obama will be denied the nomination, but I'm reminded of the fact that the only people I've spoken with who have said, "this country will never elect a black man" have oddly ALL been of African American ethnicity.

Sad but understandable that they're so disgruntled.

This 1/2 13th generational American feels really deeply that this man of mixed ethnicity with an an amazing vision and exalted degree of enlightenment, is the person for our times.

Enough with the chalky patriarchal caucasian ineffectual and disingenuous leadership already.

Yes I'm totally into reverse racism. LOL

[Lady-Damai]

89. To Gore Vidal....BITCH PLEASE!

Violence doesn't solve anything. Was the Civil Rights Movement won with violence?

Gore Vidal has no clue about the different BLACK groups in America. He's assuming all black ppl will react the same.

Obama doesn't only have black supporters. All Obama supporters of every race would be pissed if the nomination was taken away.

There are different ways to get your point across without using violence. If something horrible like that did happen...

I truly believe Obama supporters would use their smarts instead of violence.

[NatBurner]

91. ok, after my knee-jerk reaction? i gotta give vidal a pass on this one

i read the article...

i see what he's trying to say, it was just worded awkwardly

i'm sorry i called u a dickhead, gore-
still buddies? call me

[Elspeth]

115. So why is he given a pass on suggesting AA violence? If someone else had said it, there'd be no pass

Is a statement's racist value based solely on whether or not you like the speaker?

[NatBurner]

117. nah, it's more based on the fact that it's an interview

and not a piece he actually thought out and wrote

i see the way he's trying to illustrate the anger we'd feel, it was just inartfully worded

the implication isn't lost on me at all-
see my initial reaction ^^upthread

but after reading the article? i'm hesitant to judge that quote without the luxury of additional context; at LEAST a sentence before and after, u know?

the rev wright situation immediately comes to mind

[Elspeth]

128. So many statements from other peoples' interviews are labeled racist: why not Vidal's?

It's amazing to me how this guy is being given a free pass. If David Gregory had suggested, off the cuff, that he was afraid of what African Americans would do if Obama didn't get the nomination, he'd have been crucified as racist, as would so many others. Why give Vidal a free pass?

[NatBurner]

130. ok, u win

[Elspeth]

144. It's not about winning: it's about how we evaluate comments.

That's all.

[zulchzulu]

93. He doesn't have to suggest it... it WILL happen if the nomination is stolen away

You can count me in as one of millions that would be in the streets protesting what would be the destruction of the Democratic Party from the hands of the Clinton Machine. I absolutely dare them to try to steal the nomination.

Gore Vidal doesn't have to suggest anything. Believe me, it would be VERY UGLY.

[TBF]

96. If the nomination is stolen there will be protests. He is wrong that just

"the blacks" will protest - there will be plenty of white people on their feet as well. As for violence, I hate it so I hope not. But with group mentality it could happen. I wouldn't want to be in Denver that day.

But I really don't think it's going to happen because Dr. Dean may be excitable but he is not an idiot. He knows who has won this nomination, and he is not going to allow rules to be broken for Clinton. He doesn't even like her from what I've seen. Obama will be our nominee.

[genna]

103. Will women take to the streets when HRC doesn't win the nomination?

Why should Vidal assume our protest will be any more outraged than theirs?

They will vote for McCain.


*tongue in cheek* Surely that is the better option for African American people.

[zulchzulu]

142. I've met thousands of Obama supporters who are women

You can bet they will be out in the streets...

If women vote for McCain, I'll be happy to send them a bloody coat hanger and a signup sheet to go fight an oil war.

[billyoc]

94. We should only be so lucky to have enough people interested in politics.

Most people will just change the channel.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." JFK

[Generator]

113. I fear more what our powers that be might do or some wacko

might do to Obama than anything his supporters might do. But yes, I can see some major problems if he is hurt. I have some fears of another 1968. He's not MLK but he is the first chance of a black man to have real power in this country-it must threaten a lot of people.

[McCamy Taylor]

118. I think this thread is a divide and conquer zone.

[NashVegas]

119. 100% Agree

[Elspeth]

126. Divide and conquering whom?

The only person at risk here is Gore Vidal.

[Peace Patriot]

121. I initially thought it was just old fart Vidal, grouchy with gout, talking off the top his head

and not giving a damn any more what he says. He IS a leftist--a real one. His creds are pretty good. But his remarks on John and Robert Kennedy were so extreme (in the same interview) and so dismissive that I figured maybe he's given up on American democracy? Something like that.

However, now that I've thought it over, maybe it's a good thing to threaten this putridly corrupt political establishment with "Black Riots." Something to scare them good. They've been bad, and I mean really bad. Great evil bad. War bad. Anti-democratic bad. Rigged voting machines (supported by both party's leaderships) bad. Massive corporate looting bad. Oil gouging bad. Outsourcing all the jobs and manufacturing bad. Patriot Act bad. Bad, bad, BAD bad. They need to be shaken up--real bad! So Vidal is muttering to himself, 'what do these fuckwad war profiteers fear the most?' He's probably wrong that it's "Black Riots." They likely are far more afraid of all of us, black and white together, dumping their rigged voting machines into 'Boston Harbor' - but leftist intellectuals like Vidal--across the board, all of them--don't think of the practical mechanisms of democracy, and have raised not one word of objection to the disenfranchisement of the American people with "trade secret," Bushite-corporate controlled vote 'counting.' I keep wondering why. It's so obvious to me that that IS the fascist coup. But, anyway, so he's eating his oatmeal and musing about the "Black Riots" after the assassination of Martin Luther King, and thinking, "Ha! They wouldn't dare! They wouldn't DARE steal the election from a black presidential candidate, because blacks have been known to riot at that kind of fuckwad outrage."

I don't think he's a racist. I think he was just thinking, 'what could stop this criminal establishment? what would give them pause?'

And he has a point--although, as I said, I think they fear ALL OF US now, not just blacks, who have taken the worst hit of Reagan-Bush induced poverty. The rigged voting machines tell me that they fear American VOTERS, in general--the majority--potentially the most progressive force on earth, as to reining in the global corporate predators who are harming everyone. They have a lot of stuff in place now to "handle" riots--black riots, food riots, anti-war riots, little old ladies in wheelchairs who have lost their Social Security and Medicare riots. They have all kinds of new weapons and jails ready. They don't fear riots. They fear TRANSPARENT VOTE COUNTING. (I mean, look at how transparent vote counting is playing out all over South America--with one leftist government after another getting elected--most recently in Paraguay, of all places. In South America, transparent vote counting IS the Revolution!)

But Vidal may be stuck in the past, as old people sometimes are. He's living back to 1965, when the Watts Uprising (riot) spawned LBJ's "war on poverty," and 1968, when M.L. King was murdered, and the cities erupted in flames (followed by enforcement of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, even by the Nixon regime!). Blacks were disenfranchised, and massively discriminated against--in jobs, in education, in every way. That's why they rioted. They had no other option as to being heard. Now we are ALL suffering these things. We are ALL disenfranchised. We are ALL suffering discrimination in favor of cheap Asian labor. And it is ALL OF US that the fascists and war profiteers fear.

The reason I didn't comment on this before is that I think Vidal's remark--and this whole race/sex "bitterness" thing being stoked by the global corporate predator 'news'--is irrelevant to most Americans. And we shouldn't feed it. It is a corporate narrative, not OUR narrative. It is mostly not real.

[Elspeth]

125. That's an interesting angle on Vidal's motivation

I don't necessarily agree with you, but this is most viable alternative I have seen on this thread.

And Amen to this:

"Now we are ALL suffering these things. We are ALL disenfranchised. We are ALL suffering discrimination in favor of cheap Asian labor. And it is ALL OF US that the fascists and war profiteers fear."

[TornadoTN]

122. The only violence I am concerned about comes from Camp Hopeless

Hillary will shed a few more tears and throw a tantrum in the halls of some court somewhere after she is finally told that she is not the party's nominee.

Then the Hillaryis44 crowd will come out and riot, burn a few couches and unleash their smug sense of entitlement.

[Elspeth]

131. Hey, if Clinton's supporters were truly violent, there's be more fear of them for real

There isn't. It's assumed the Hillary Clinton's supporters will just buckle under and vote for Barack Obama.

[TornadoTN]

133. Do you even realize that it works both ways?

Even if Hillary were to secure the nomination, she'd have a really big bridge to repair from the slash-and-burn campaign she's been running against Obama and his supporters.

But I guess it's just assumed that Obama supporters will just buckle under and vote for Hillary Clinton?

[Elspeth]

138. How does the violence theme "work both ways"? Vidal says nothing about women--or whites.

His implications are strictly about African Americans--which in my mind, makes this statement racist.

[ShortnFiery]

147. Neither HRC or Bill Clinton WILL EVER reclaim the respect of the AA Community.

They will not reclaim the respect of "the average hard working BLACK American."

The Clintons OPEN race-baiting has fully burned that bridge.

[krawhitham]

123. It will not just be African Americans

We will be rioting in the streets if she steals it

[BlooInBloo]

124. It always amazes me how scared white folks are of black folks.

[NatBurner]

135. 12% of the population to boot

[ecstatic]

127. There won't be violence. Just a mass voter registration change from Dem to Ind.

[Swamp Rat]

132. What a stupid thing to say, Gore Vidal.

x(

[Elspeth]

137. Yeah, very stupid.

He should have, at very least, known better.

[Bucky]

139. Senior moment. Also, historically ignorant, as there have been several such revolts in US history

Vidal's an old throwback to the 60s and hasn't even lived in this country for 20 years or so. He's also wrong to suggest Turner's rebellion, the Stono Rebellion, and dozens of other uprisings against racial bigotry and oppression never happened. If you're in Houston, every time you drive down Memorial Park you drive over the very spot where WW1 soldiers took to the streets to resist southern segregation.

[ShortnFiery]

145. Gore Vidal, despite his dauntingly high intelligence, has not joined us in a 21st Century Mindset.

He's, at times, very charming. However, having lived in Italy for 30 years has set him "OUT OF TOUCH." :(

[ElsewheresDaughter]

149. WHOOPS THERE IT IS...another race card delt from the bottom

[ShortnFiery]

153. Yeah, some old intellectual WHITE man of wealth and celebrity is "afraid that the blacks will riot"

Move along ... Nothing to see here. :crazy:

[Why Syzygy]

152. It's a legitmate concern. I also fear what white rednecks might do when he does get the nom.

Racism is a very ugly thing.

[ShortnFiery]

154. Yeah, that's the way to foment more understanding.

I'll be standing next to my AA neighbors so those "good ole boys" can't bully us ALL. :hi:

:thumbsdown:

[Why Syzygy]

155. I'm with you.

Frankly, I will be disappointed if they don't object to a stolen nomination. Remember the hideous display in the Senate when no one would recognize the Black Caucus? Disgrace!

[barack the house]

156. I am black I don't think he was being racist. Just highlighting the Clintons are demeaning a black

candidate and using projection with sexism and that offends black people. Though it won't go to violence.I feel no doubt that if Edwards had come first they would of conceded at this point.

[Elspeth]

175. That's not what that comment in the OP says. Read it.

It generalizes about all African Americans.

[BootinUp]

159. I got to where he trashed the Kennedy's, thats all. nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

163. American American, too.

[martymar64]

165. This poem by Langston Hughes comes to mind

A Dream Deferred
By Langston Hughes

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up _like a raisin in the sun? _
Or fester like a sore-- _And then run?
_Does it stink like rotten meat?
_Or crust and sugar over-- _like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags _like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?

[Lucky 13]

167. I don't know about black people, but I'm going to be fucking pissed.

[Yukari Yakumo]

176. My take

I don't know how many times I've said "If Hillary wins, we riot". I don't seriously intend to start a riot (I'm in the middle of nowhere), but I will be really, really pissed if she steals the nom.

Considering the overwhelming support of the AA community of Obama, the race-baiting (to outright racism) of the Clinton camp, to the fact that certain AA communities can, and will, start riots if they are really, really pissed...

To say "If Hillary wins, they riot" has every potential of being true.
Shades of LA '92? That's a definite possibility. All it needs is a spark.

[papapi]

177. Myra Breckenridge isn't running for President.

[Leopolds Ghost]

178. Do you have a problem/fear of black people rioting? When whites riot for legitimate reasons

It's called a "demonstration" or "popular discontent" or better yet, a "political movement".

[Elspeth]

186. The statement was made by Gore Vidal.

My concern is that the statement was racist.

[Doityourself]

208. Yep. With black people it's a RIOT!

[anonymous171]

179. I'm more worried about youth voter riots actually.

They have more time on their hands and tend to be more energized (frenzy-able.)

[Elspeth]

195. That's an interesting take on it. However,

looking at recent events (like the tazing at UCLA a few years ago and the tazing of the guy in Florida at Kerry's event) I fear that the students will have no reaction at all.

[JCMach1]

180. Gore Vidal is supporting Hillary...

So, fill in the _______________________

[Elspeth]

185. Take a look at the article in the OP; he is criticizing Clinton for staying in the race.

He doesn't sound like he's supporting her at all.

[Doityourself]

194. Well, you know blacks are prone to violence...they don't protest..they RIOT!

He's a jackass..

Hillary supporters which are largely white will protest.


Barack's supporters which a great many are black will RIOT!

[Elspeth]

197. Exactly. This is the old racist stereotype.

Lots of people here at DU don't get it. They think that saying that there is a white working class is racist, but that implying that African Americans will become violent if they don't get their candidate is not.

[Doityourself]

209. Yep. You've done a great job on this thread. Good work!

[Elspeth]

214. Thank you.

..

[LittleBlue]

196. Don't confuse unpleasant thoughts with being wrong

This is an unpleasant thought, somewhat crudely presented. It is also very possible considering our history.

[Elspeth]

198. Unpleasant thought? It's embedded in racist stereotypes.

Racism is the belief that a particular race has particular traits (usually negative ones), that every member of that race has those traits, and that those traits are a justification for keeping that race down.

Vidal's comment is embedded in the old stereotype that African Americans are violent and can't help being violent because of their race. (Never mind the violence of the European world or that the most dangerous weapons we have ever known were invented by white Americans and Europeans.)

I have heard the word racism spread about throughout this entire primary, and some of the time, it wasn't really a matter of racism but a matter of disagreement on facts. THIS comment by Vidal, however, IS racism. My fear is that people are so accustomed to calling minor disagreements "racism" that they can't recognize the real thing when they see it.

[Seabiscuit]

202. Gore Vidal sometimes makes sense and other times he doesn't and to throw

the proverbial boogy man out there to scare people is just plain bullshit and very much like George Bush et al with their terror threats.

[Butch350]

205. That is Total

Bulls***!

The future Black vote will dissipate from the Democratic party.
The only black left would be by those who brown nose the Clintons.

[Mudoria]

215. Sorry Gore old buddy but you may be a halfway decent

writer but you know jackshit about this. Find something you're more capable in like writing bad books.