If you favor democracy over winning, this race is over

[usregimechange]

Conversely, if you favor winning over democracy the race isn't over. I know where I stand. Obama is our nominee.

[wanpete]

1. I favor democracy, and playing by the rules, without moving the goalpost and using division to win

Barack is my nominee as well.

[truedelphi]

3. Well said.

[Growler]

11. Excellent Post!

I totally agree with it!

[Diane R]

2. I favor playing by the rules, and telling the truth. Obama is my nominee, too.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. Of course, if you live in Florida,

and are a registered Democrat, and voted.....

[Occam Bandage]

6. ...then you have a very big reason to be very angry with your state party.

[backscatter712]

14. Well said!

Floridians, take your anger out on your elected assclowns (both Republican and Democratic) who voted in full knowledge to violate DNC rules. They're the ones that disenfranchised the voters, not the DNC.

[Yukari Yakumo]

61. Paging madfloridian... Paging madfloridian... {nt}

uguu

[Occam Bandage]

5. I favor respecting the voter-controlled aspect of the nomination process. I favor fairness.

I favor keeping the sanctity of the rules intact. I favor Obama.

[Ytzak]

7. I favor democracy over winning...

We are the Democratic party in a democratic republic. We need to stand for some thing, even if we face loosing.

That said, Obama is still going to be the nominee.

[Life Long Dem]

8. Clinton can favor winning in 8 years and save our country.

Anybody thinks she will be too old in 8 years, I say they are wrong. And if you say bullshit, I say look at her mother who was in Iowa campaigning for her daughter.

[usregimechange]

12. Agreed. She has every right to run again and may do well.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. I favor democracy

and that means letting everyone vote, and counting all those votes, and making sure all those votes count.

[Occam Bandage]

16. Completely agreed. I oppose antidemocratic efforts such as those the FL/MI state parties undertook.

State parties are not allowed to fuck with the democratic process for political gain.

[crimsonblue]

27. democracy means setting down ground rules and sticking to them...

tossing away the rules when they are inconvenient is antithetical to democracy and freedom.

[gmudem]

33. "We are competing everywhere through February 5th" - Hillary Clinton

She had no intention of campaigning past Super Tuesday. She thought she would have her coronation all sewn up by then. So you can believe that, but you have to ignore the reality of what Clinton said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WsPmZ1zDeA

[aquarius dawning]

10. In a Democracy, all the votes count. In a tyranny, It's the people counting the votes that matter

Given that the powers that be have determined to not count the votes of two states, I find it a little hard to call this a win for democracy. I'd be more inclined to call it a portend of things to come and I'll have no part of it.

[shadowknows69]

13. So those states aren't voting now?

[aquarius dawning]

15. Like I said, it 's about the people counting the votes, not the people casting the votes.

[shadowknows69]

17. Which makes no sense in this context at all

Par for you.

[aquarius dawning]

20. Oh look, in the absence of a real argument, you've resorted to ad hominem

par for you.

[Youphemism]

18. Wouldn't tyranny also be...

...trying to count votes from ballots that only had one name on them?

[aquarius dawning]

23. Not if the second name was taken of willingly by the person who was supposed to be on the ballot.

If the powers that be only provided one name, then yes, it would be tyranical but that wsn't the case, was it. Obama acted under his own power. The whole situation just makes me sick to be perfectly honest. I realize that this is just politics to many people around here but, as for me, I don't give a fuck who benfits, no entity has the right to disenfranchise an entire state (let alone two). And the courts can disagree all they want, that doesn't mean that I have to be a part of it and, in fact, I won't be.

[crimsonblue]

28. by disregarding the law as determined by the courts...

you are not a true american. I guess freedom only matters to you when it's convenient. How sad.

[aquarius dawning]

47. "you are not a true american"

I wish we were at a bar having this conversation so I could see the look on your face 5 seconds after you said that to me.

[crimsonblue]

29. by disregarding the law as determined by the courts...

you are not a true american. I guess freedom only matters to you when it's convenient. How sad.

[Youphemism]

36. Of course...

...He took his name off the ballot because the powers that be promised that this primary wasn't going to count.

How many voters stayed home, or didn't bother voting because they knew their candidate wasn't selectable? How many didn't go because they didn't think their vote would count?

Knowing that, how can the Michigan primary be said to be indicative of the will of those people?

[aquarius dawning]

44. There is no argument that you or anybody else can make to me to justify disenfranchising two states

I mean, you can make it, but you'll just be wasting your energy with me. I'm not going to have any part of this. That much is already for certain. I'm certainly not going to vote for a candidate that won by disenfranchising two entire states. That is for certain too. Whether that is the extent of my protest remains to be seen.

[Kixel]

49. Obama didn't do it.

If you blame him, then you really need to look into how the political process works.

[aquarius dawning]

58. He blocked the revote.

[Youphemism]

52. Easy, there...

First, I'm not arguing in favor of disenfranchising anyone. What I'm saying is that it's possible to disenfranchise people by accepting an inherently unfair vote as it is by not counting it.

For example, if the Florida polls were not wheelchair-accessible, would it be any more fair to count the vote of the people who made it to the polls than it would be to not count any votes?

I don't think you can make that argument to me.

Nor will you convince me that the Michigan vote is any more fair than that.

As for the extent of your protest, please don't rule out dressing up like a fish and flopping around on the roof of your car in a crowded parking lot. Stuff like that really gets the attention of the media.

[FredScuttle]

19. Amen

n/t

[NJSecularist]

21. I favor giving the nomination to the candidate who has won the most votes. n/t

[shadowknows69]

22. Guess what fucko, that's not how it works.

Work to change it for next time, don't know what to tell you.

[aquarius dawning]

24. Oh look, more unwarranted ad hominem from you.

[crimsonblue]

31. call me crazy...

but isn't calling out an ad hominem post by using 'ad hominem' an ad hominem attack itself? Total vote does not matter, because the caucus states do not have GE voting totals. If you attribute Obama's victory margins to the total GE vote in the states in 2004, Obama would be blowing Hillary out of the water. Oh wait, he still is, because Clinton has no mathematical possibility of winning more pledged delegates.

[aquarius dawning]

37. uh yeah, whatever.

[crimsonblue]

42. no response?

Nothing to beat back the raw facts? Obama has more delegates and more money. Following the rules of the party, he has more votes.

[shadowknows69]

38. That your phrase of the day?

I speak the truth, delegates choose our nominee. Look it up.

[NJSecularist]

25. I thought the Obamites were in favor of democracy?

I guess the term "one man, one vote" doesn't matter to them. Would you guys like to go back to the 1960s?

[aquarius dawning]

26. Only so far as it favors their cause.

[shadowknows69]

40. You're not Democrats, you should be celebrating our nominee tonight.

[Lilith Velkor]

68. Sore winner n/t

[jgraz]

45. How 'bout we give the nomination to the candidate who won it?

And not the candidate who's constantly trying to change the rules.

[Swamp Rat]

30. President Obama!

:applause:

[Perry Logan]

32. President McCain

[Swamp Rat]

35. Adios to you and your kind!!

:hi:

[Name removed]

46. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

34. Actually, to favor democracy, you favor all of the votes of all

of the voters to be cast and counted.

Easy.

[jgraz]

43. Luckily, we don't live in a democracy.

And even if we did, Obama would still be the nominee by any sane, rational count.

[cboy4]

48. I love this race....when is the next primary jgraz?

[jgraz]

50. You mean one that matters?? NH Republican primary in 2012.

[cboy4]

53. No jgraz, I'm not looking for the date of the NH primary. I'm

looking for the date of the next Democratic Primary state.

Thanks in advance for your help

[jgraz]

54. The next Democratic primary that matters will be in 2016.

I wonder who President Obama will endorse?

[cboy4]

56. No jgraz, isn't the next date June 3rd? Were you not able to

look that up for me?

[avenger64]

39. Actually, Hillary may win the popular vote ...

... which means that democracy is being defeated. Obama has gotten his edge from winning caucuses, which is a much more republican system (I don't mean the party, there).

[jgraz]

51. Hillary may also win the leprechaun vote. Which makes about as much sense.

But not unicorns -- they're all for Obama, those sexist assholes.

[avenger64]

55. Um, I think democracy is about direct representation, non?

If she has more people vote for her directly in primaries, the more democratic form of election, then my original point would be upheld. Caucuses are more republican in the sense that party regulars (representatives of other voters) vote.

My original post made perfect sense, if you understand the difference between democracy and republican forms of governance.

Does 2 + 2 = 4 make sense to you? If not, maybe you should move on.

[jgraz]

59. Don't get snotty with me when you're pulling facts out of your ass

There is no valid number for a "popular vote". The number does not exist. To get to her fantasy number, Hillary is not counting caucus voters, but she IS counting votes from the two illegitimate elections in FL and MI. And even THEN she doesn't have the numbers unless she gives Obama a ZERO for Michigan, even though 40% of Michigan voters turned out in sub-zero weather to vote uncommitted against her.

It's the height of chicanery, and Hillary knows it. So don't come in here with your "2 + 2 = 4" bullshit like you just discovered some fundamental truth of the universe. The only truth is that Hillary is conning you and you're swallowing it.

[avenger64]

60. Nice dancing ....

.... I'll pass on the tango, though. Facts don't come from my ass, just shit, like you're talking. My original statement went to the fact that she's ahead in the popular vote from direct elections (and yes, I do count Michigan and Florida, since Democrats cast votes there. Though Howard Dean, the Antonin Scalia of 2008, thinks that the vote from states like SC, where half the dem electorate is black, matter more than Florida, where a democrat might actually win (Hillary, not Obama), and give us the presidency). Primaries are more democratic, caucuses are more Republican. Do you dispute that?

We really need to give people like you civics education while you're young, so you understand things like this when you (finally) grow up.

[jgraz]

63. We've heard this for months. It was shit then and it's shit now

You don't get to change them in the middle of the game, no matter how bad your candidate is at playing it.

[avenger64]

64. There you go, when logic fails ...

... (and you didn't answer my question), just get shrill and nasty.

Obama Nation! Not.

[jgraz]

65. You can't use logic when talking to insane people

And if you think your post makes any sense whatsoever, you are clinically insane.

[cboy4]

66. Shame on you avenger64 for having the nerve to defend

Hillary Clinton here at ObamaUnderground.

[avenger64]

67. thx for the support, man.

Thought I was goin' crazy.

[smalll]

41. I favor winning. I don't want the Democrats to have to go into November with Mr. Unelectable

just to satisfy black folks, over-excited kids, and latte liberals with a martyrdom complex.

Of course, I favor democracy too. In terms of popular vote, this race is far from over. Hillary's on her way to producing a larger electoral mandate than Barack's.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. The Primary Is Not Solely About Democracy, And It's A Bit Narrow Minded And Naive To Think So.

There are several components, including letting the people have a voice, that go into the SOLE purpose of choosing the strongest nominee to take on the other candidates in the GE.

[slinkerwink]

62. He IS the presumptive nominee, but I think the race is officially over on the last primary