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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:26 AM
Original message
What Bothers Me About an Obama Presidency - Just One Example
Edited on Fri May-16-08 11:49 AM by Crisco
I fear the movement we're a part of will actually be pushed backwards.

Paul Street, Z Mag - Obama has lent his support to the aptly named Hamilton Project, formed by corporate-neoliberal Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to counter populist rebellion against corporatist tendencies within the Democratic Party. . . Obama was recently hailed as a Hamiltonian believer in limited government and free trade by Republican New York Times columnist David Brooks, who praises Obama for having "a mentality formed by globalization, not the SDS." . . .
...
Says "everything is on the table" with Social Security.
...
At worst, Obama will be one more fox placed in the chicken coop of democracy by the corporations and their outsourced workers in the media and politics. At best, he will rebel against his upbringing and offer America something new and better. Most likely, however, is that he will serve as a deeply frustrating transition between what should never have happened and what needs to be done - stabilizing our national dysfunctions as they continue to await proper and necessary treatment.


http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_12339.cfm

We are on the brink of a populist uprising - and along comes this new uniter (or so we're told) who makes a point of telling Democratic donors they should put their money in his hands and eschew donating to outside interest groups.

Congress yesterday passed a farm bill that further corporatizes our food supply by subsidizing the largest farmers of all. This is significant because food activism has become the most effective populist push since divestiture in apartheid South Africa. If anything, it's even larger than that movement was.

Two years ago, The Economist noted the trend in a story called "Food Politics":

HAS the supermarket trolley dethroned the ballot box? Voter turnout in most developed countries has fallen in recent decades, but sales of organic, Fairtrade and local food—each with its own political agenda—are growing fast. Such food allows shoppers to express their political opinions, from concern for the environment to support for poor farmers, every time they buy groceries. And shoppers are jumping at the opportunity, says Marion Nestle, a nutritionist at New York University and the author of “Food Politics” (2002) and “What to Eat” (2006). “What I hear as I talk to people is this phenomenal sense of despair about their inability to do anything about climate change, or the disparity between rich and poor,” she says. “But when they go into a grocery store they can do something—they can make decisions about what they are buying and send a very clear message.”

Those in the food-activism movement agree. “It definitely has a positive effect,” says Ian Bretman of Fairtrade Labelling Organisations (FLO) International, the Fairtrade umbrella group. Before the advent of ethical and organic labels, he notes, the usual way to express political views using food was to impose boycotts. But such labels make a political act out of consumption, rather than non-consumption—which is far more likely to produce results, he suggests.


And of course Michael Pollan weighed in on the Farm Bill mechanics last autumn:

A new politics has sprouted up around the farm bill, traditionally a parochial piece of legislation thrashed out in private between the various agricultural interests (wheat growers versus corn growers; meatpackers versus ranchers) without a whole lot of input or attention from mere eaters.

Not this year. The eaters have spoken, much to the consternation of farm-state legislators who have fought hard — and at least so far with success — to preserve the status quo.

Americans have begun to ask why the farm bill is subsidizing high-fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated oils at a time when rates of diabetes and obesity among children are soaring, or why the farm bill is underwriting factory farming (with subsidized grain) when feedlot wastes are polluting the countryside and, all too often, the meat supply. For the first time, the public health community has raised its voice in support of overturning farm policies that subsidize precisely the wrong kind of calories (added fat and added sugar), helping to make Twinkies cheaper than carrots and Coca-Cola competitive with water.


All three of the senators who are presidential candidates were absent from the vote on what the NYT called a "disgraceful" bill. The one who spoke out against it? McCain. Go figure.

NYT: The bill is an inglorious piece of work tailored to the needs of big agriculture and championed by not only the usual bipartisan farm state legislators but also the Democratic leaders, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Every five years we get a new farm bill, and each time we are reminded that even reformers like Ms. Pelosi cannot resist the blandishments and power of the farmers.

And it's the second time since 2001 a bill has passed that's veto-proof.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Standard six-degrees-of-separation Dem-bashing.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. I like how it starts with Robert Rubin
If memory serves he was in the Clinton administration so I am not sure how he tarnishes Obama more than he tarnishes Hillary.

I have to read up on the farm bill maybe, because I thought I heard that they were capping payments to farms over $750,000 whereas Bush wanted the cap to be at $250,000. Which does not compute. Why would Bush want a lower cap?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. You Heard Correctly
That's the fucked up thing, isn't it? Whether or not that's his actual reason for vetoing, it's the one he's going with publicly.

In his own weird little way, Bush has done a lot to fan the flames of populist movements. I can only assume this was unintentional.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #51
93. So the small farmer goes bankrupt?
Edited on Sun May-18-08 10:27 AM by mac2
Big corporations get the land cheap? So we can't produce our own food without corporations? Or maybe to make sure all the food is exported for profit and we strave? Would they do that? Emmm.
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
66. "I fear..."
You lost me right there. I have NO fear, and don't give a damn about yours.

Get your head out of your pansy-ass and THINK!
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is a new one. We win the Whitehouse and hand wringing about shadows?
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. What some fail to accept. ---No Candidate will get anywhere
without the support of Wall Street and Big Business.

Why did Edwards fail to get traction??? He was seen as the enemy
by Wall Sreet. Corporate Media found other ways to diminish his
efforts. Fox News Channel spent inordinate amount of time
knocking him down.

Other Corporate Media(knowing who butters their bread) finished
the job. He is a populist. He is a white man interfering with
the possiblities of a Black Man winning.

It will take a long time but Corporations have a stranglehold.
You will never see them come out---they work behind the scenes.
If Business does not consider you their friend, you will never
get to the WH. Let us hope that over time this can be reversed.


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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Obama
And yet so many of his supporters seem quite left of center. Social Security on the table; that'll go real well with the Obama crowd on this forum. But he'll get their vote anyway; he's cool and fresh, after all. And the opposition's successfully been cast as non-progressive.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. And They Can't Get Anywhere
If we aren't being led like sheep, and they know it. That's why they're leaning Dem this season. It's a reaction to the populist rising against Republicans and Bush, and they want it quashed.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Yup... we saw it start long ago...
wall street started putting more money in Dem coffers, cause they knew who'd be making the rules for the next 8 years.

I'd rather have had Kucinich. Or Edwards. But we have Obama. We know who we're up against. It's our job to stay vigilant after the next administration starts.

Nobody has promised us anything. All we have is hope, and energy.

That's why I get so pissed when I see crap that could dilute the energy. We NEED it... we need it to continue after the inauguration. If we don't stay active and involved and adamant, we will lose (again).

Eternal vigilance... nothing less.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Well, Good Luck
Jon Stewart said it best. "He's going to break our hearts. I just hope it's a financial scandal."
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'd rather have hope than go with the DLC candidate.
Better hope than cynicism, IMO.

Good luck to you as well.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. They Both Are, IMO
And portraying one as not is where the cynicism lies.

So it goes.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. But... Obama has gone so far as to demand the DLC
stop claiming he's a member (which they did... interestingly).

He's not DLC. They may be similar... and all the doom and gloom about future heartbreak may come to pass... but he's definitely not DLC.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Crisco, relax a little. It's hard to do, but
Edited on Fri May-16-08 01:51 PM by truedelphi
I think that both Barack and Michelle are going to be too close to the African American community in this country to ever forget what huge changes we need.

The Blacks are very vocal. At the time of Katrina, local San Francisco radio stations were logging record numbers of African American callers who were saying that the inactions of the Bush administration NO were genocide. These callers did not get on the air - but someone I knew who was on staff at KGO called to tell me that.

Michelle has promised to keep things in perspective - she really truly comes from a middle inocme background - not the FAUX middle income Background that Hillary's people have painted for her.

My biggest concerns abt Barack right now are
1) the media
2) him being targeted like JFK
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. They'll be in Washington and they won't give a damn.
Or he'll give a smooth speech about how he's really doing what's in their best interest anyway ("who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes ...").

You think just because he's black he won't sell you out? Sell us ALL out? Grow the hell up.

Bake
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I think that the possibility of a sell out is a real one. But, but, but
Edited on Fri May-16-08 02:38 PM by truedelphi
If it had already happened however, Wolf Blitzer wouldn't be carrying a woodie every time he mentioned Senator Clinton's name. Karl Rove, now a FAUX commentator, wouldn't be talking about Clinton as though she was his favorite sister. The Media wouldn't be blanketing its talk shows with Big Mouths screaming abt the need for every voter in FL or MI to count.

It could happen but so far it hasn't.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. The DLC is *guaranteed* to sell us out.
That's how we see it.

Obviously... y'all would rather throw your lot in with the DLC, and hope it's like last time.

There's not a tech bubble waiting in the wings this time.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Obama is basically DLC without the label.
He's still a corporatist. Any trace of populism is just for show. But it looks like he's our nominee, so I hope he doesn't disappoint us too badly.

At minimum, his picks for SCOTUS would be better than McLame's.

Bake
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I share that hope...
Part of what gives me a little extra hope is what he decided to do with his life after he finished school... and that he so publicly rebuked the DLC for lying about him being a part of their group. He's not afraid to call them out... so if he does start triangulating like mad, he'll lose support and will be a one-termer.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-19-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #43
104. Then he and his wife should get out of the CFR
It makes them elitists.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
97. Ya they destroy what we build and ship it over seas.
They want us to think of more things so they can profit off them. Heck they care about our prosperity after what they did to the CA tech boom. Did they feel threatened by the West coast prosperous middle class who were liberals? Yep.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
78. You mean like how Bill Clinton sold us out with NAFTA and welfare "reform"?
:hurts:
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #78
86. Why do people ignore the NAFTA elephant in the room?
Edited on Sun May-18-08 10:08 AM by mac2
Not one candidate says they they will negate those illegal trade deals since they have harmed our country. We always loose. Everything comes in but little goes out causing huge debt and jobs gone off-shore.

To claim they will "improve workers rights and environmental" problems is just plain blather. They can't do that in this country let alone 3rd world countries such as China. That's no promise of good things to come for us...it's just a delaying tactic to get them elected to power.

It's the economy stupid.

Congress has illegally given away their powers over trade to the President and his unelected trade representatives who meet behind closed doors. The Constitution serves the people not the President's Empire Building and profit agenda.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
87. As a African American you should worry about your rights,
your ability to feed and protect your family, and your country's bleak future because of our debt. Your concerns are those of every American except the elite few.

Hillary is from the Chicago area. Her background was middle class.

Your concerns aren't different and won't be served better just because some politican is black and of a similar social background. Look at Condi Rice, Powell, etc. Look at them in a political way not a racial one. That will serve you better in the long run.

Your fight is ours. I'm not telling you to vote for Hillary but try to pick the most suitable President for all of America.

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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. He's not going to break my heart.
As a teacher once told me, great expectations lead to great disappointment. I have no expectations of Barack Obama, other than to expect him to act like the politician he is.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. Exactly my thought, Straight Shooter.
I have no expectations, and I believe it's far too soon for people to be anticipating great forward progress. People have invested so much hope into this candidate that I fear there will be a huge backlash, even among Democrats, when/if he doesn't deliver. I can't read the future, of course, and I will be very happily surprised if he comes through with noticeable progressive change, but I'm not holding my breath.

(And I would say the same about Clinton, too, although I don't think people assumed that she would be that much of a "change" candidate.)

In my opinion, the real changes are going to come from the legislature anyway, so it's more important than ever for us to elect strong progressives to both houses.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. "... the real changes are going to come from the legislature anyway"
:thumbsup:

People tend to ascribe far more power to the presidency than is warranted. We may have 4 years of roadblocks up ahead.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
94. We'd need a huge majority in the Congress for that to happen.
The President can veto it otherwise.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. actually, with Hillary, you know exactly what you are getting, with Obama, all you have is hope..
and the 90's were pretty damn good... not perfect, but pretty damn good.


I would prefer to know what to expect that just to hope.


you know what they say, if you hope in one hand...
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Exactly.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. thanks :-)
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
98. And she would be the first woman President (globalist)
Edited on Sun May-18-08 12:46 PM by mac2
instead of a first African American/white President (globalist).

She has more experience since she was a governor and a President's wife. She is a Senator. She herself has a great intelligence and knowledge.

I am upset about all the candidates but she says she will return our Constitution, etc. I hope so.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Hope in one hand, shit on the Clinton legacy
and see which one loses us the election first?

Oy. :banghead: Gevault. :banghead:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. The 90's were pretty good... but we got stabbed in the back.
So yeah... I'll go with hope rather than more DLC, thanks.

At least with Obama we have a chance of less triangulation, and not more.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
64. The 90s were a hjiccup in the long term trend toward turning everyone
--except the haves and have mores into medieval serfs. Like they temporarily stopped bashing our heads in with hammers--damn that felt good! Nowhere near what we need to do though, and the Clinton suppression of party building cost us state legislatures, governorships and control of Congress. Not that I'm not grateful that he was able to block some of the more egregious neocon initiatives, though.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
79. Exactly!
With Hillary we can count on more war in Iraq, a new war in Iran on Israel's behalf, more scandals with dubious people like Norman Hsu and Marc Rich and more betrayals of working people with things like NAFTA, CAFTA and welfare "reform".
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
58. ah, very good
I am glad you posted this redqueen because I see in it a basis for reaching an understanding and stopping the feuding, if you are up for that.

Unsolicited suggestion - I know there is another poster who gets on your last nerve, and you have me associated with him and have mentioned him on your responses to me a couple of times. Why not just ignore him for the moment?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I'm so up for it!
I recognize he's not perfect... God knows it's true, and I doubt anyone on this board is unaware of it.

And yeah... I didn't want to have to resort to that, but I have gone back to using Ignore for now... and yeah... I did... and I'm just staying out of that forum for the time being anyway. It's too frustrating for me. I'm easily riled. GRRR! :P
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. don't get riled
There is a way out of this logjam, and no one has to lose in the process.

I see some very powerful and constructive things in your post.

You say - "Yup... we saw it start long ago...wall street started putting more money in Dem coffers, cause they knew who'd be making the rules for the next 8 years."

We see that the same way, and are on the same side. Corruption of our government, of every aspect of our lives, is the root cause of the problems.

You say - "I'd rather have had Kucinich. Or Edwards. But we have Obama. We know who we're up against. It's our job to stay vigilant after the next administration starts."

Yes, I couldn't agree more. Here we are, and this is the reality and we make the best of it.

Now here is where we disagree, and it is a relatively minor disagreement and the feuds we are in are out of proportion to the small area of disagreement we have. Even that disagreement can be overcome, I believe, and if not we can still work together and see each other as allies.

You say - "That's why I get so pissed when I see crap that could dilute the energy. We NEED it... we need it to continue after the inauguration. If we don't stay active and involved and adamant, we will lose (again). Eternal vigilance... nothing less."

What I am hearing, is that you are saying that we need to hold the politicians feet to the fire - "eternal vigilance" after they are in office, and that criticizing them now is helping the Republicans. I am saying that if we don't hold their feet to the fire now, it will be harder to after they are in office, we have less leverage, and we are very unlikely to hold their feet to the fire once they are in office. I am also saying that it does not help the Republicans to be critical now.

Just between you and me and the chair in the corner, I am not 100% certain that I am right in my view of this, but I think my view is legitimate and worthy of consideration. Perhaps you are not 100% certain in your view, either, but when we get into a fight about it - and we don't even know for sure what we are arguing about - we both dig in, overstate our case, give no quarter, and argue it more ferociously. I think that is because we both want to be heard by the other person, not necessarily that we want to be right and have the other person be wrong.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Yes!
We just disagree on the criticizing now part. IMO, right now we have people involved (those voters who are normally disengaged but do pay a little more attention before a presidential election) who aren't exactly involved enough to give this stuff a lot of detailed thought. So if we turn them off now... they may hear some crap about the nominee or see some dumb ad for McCain or God knows what and get it in their heads that they should vote for McCain, or not vote for our nominee... so IMO it's best not to be critical really but to motivate people first and foremost to vote FOR our nominee or AGAINST Obama... just so long as we get veto power and the helm.

Equally important is Congress... we need a solid majority.

Later we'll only have those that are sincerely dedicated... and it seems to me that keeping people engaged means not diluting their optimism or they may just throw their hands up and let things go as they may (like most normally do).

So... I think it's not so necessary to be critical even after the election... we just need to apply constant pressure. They have to think they'll lose their jobs after their current term is up, or lose money... that's ALL that seems to motivate them.

So... I'm just thinking out loud... but I hope you get what I'm saying here.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
73. yes, I understand
There are different kinds of criticism. We are acting like post-traumatic stress victims, hyper-alert to any criticism after years of all out assault from the extreme right wingers with all of their insane lies and confusion and distracting rhetoric. We can't tell constructive criticism from sneaky attacks any more, we can't tell friend from foe.

You say "so if we turn them off now..."

We won't turn them off of we tell the truth, calmly and with determination. We will turn them off if we act like crazed lunatics. Most of the right wing attacks are distractions and fabrications. Getting into a panic makes us look crazy. Directly answering the right wong idiocy gives it legitimacy.

You say "...they may hear some crap about the nominee or see some dumb ad for McCain or God knows what and get it in their heads that they should vote for McCain..."

May? May hear? It is a dead certainty. Beating up on each other won't prevent that. We need to have confidence. Panicking over every right wing lie is weakness.

You say "we need a solid majority" in Congress. Be careful there. It is not "we" who are going to Congress and taking office, it is very much "they." We hope that one group of "them" may be more responsive to the needs of the people than the other group of "them," but never forget that they are not us.

You say "...keeping people engaged means not diluting their optimism or they may just throw their hands up..."

I have to disagree there. If people need their optimism kept up, they are not very strong allies. Keeping our spirits high, and beating on anyone who utters a cautionary or discouraging word, is just denial and escapism. The solution to the crisis is not to get us all thinking beautiful thoughts, nor to force everyone into visualizing or believing in positive results. Optimism plays a role, but it is no substitute for a cold, hard, sober look at reality. In fact, that can be dangerous and delusional.

Thanks so much for your expressing your thoughts so well and trusting me.

Peace and solidarity, redqueen.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
95. Fan mail from some flounder...
"I am saying that if we don't hold their feet to the fire now, it will be harder to after they are in office, we have less leverage, and we are very unlikely to hold their feet to the fire once they are in office. I am also saying that it does not help the Republicans to be critical now."

Absolutely, you question whether you are right here, I don't. Case in point is that the funding vote in the house for Iraq just went down for the first time ever in the five years of the debacle, although the Republicans tried to take the fire out of the success by saying it was due to their voting "present" instead of yay or nay, IMO it was due to the fact that in many districts, mine inclusive, many representatives are getting lots of visits regarding the occupation, impeachment, and economic needs and injustices; they are also getting competition from the "left" in regards to folks running against them. It is now that we need to keep their feet hot so they keep hopping to the demands of the people! We need to continually remind them that they were elected by us to represent our needs, and wishes, not to continue their own agendas; they need to be critically assessed now to push them to make stronger stands, and stands we can hold them to when and if they get re-elected.

Thanks for letting me rant and cut in, I usually cheer your posts quietly, Peace, Maryf
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
62. Staying active and involved is what Obama has asked his supporters to do
I'm betting that will probably be turned against at least some Obama policies--I hope so anyway. Remember what FDR always said to Eleanor when she tried to push him leftwards--if you want that to happen, you have to tell your friends to get themselves organized and MAKE me do it. That will be necessary in 2009 as well.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Damn straight... that's ALWAYS the way it works.
No major change benefitting the public has ever come from the top down... it's always bottom-up.

'Swhy I love Jim Hightower so much... he hammers on that point constantly. Love that guy. :)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. absolutely
Well said and I agree completely. We cannot really blame people and beat up on them for being a little cynical about this given recent experience, though, especially when so many are talking about getting Obama elected as the cure all and the end of the work.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #68
75. I hardly think that any Kucinich or Edwards supporter is that delusional
Wm Pitt has been very good at pointing out the huge institutional obstacles we face. It's a lot like turning a battleship around with an outboard motor.

Now, if we could get a few million outboard motors going, and actually pointed in the same direction............
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #75
88. It's hard to even make people open their eyes to the
Cons in our government. They always reach out hoping the next candidate will do as they promise (which they rarely do today). They aren't held accountable for what they promise before the election. Many go opposite once their fanny hit the seat in DC.

We keep working to change government but end up with worse govenment than before. Their plan to remove our democracy goes forward.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I think Wall Street was quite reassured by JE's Hedge Fund stint
and his 25 million investment with Fortress. That ain't exactly anti-corporist behavior. And you know what they say about actions and words. Nothing in his Senate record to scare them either. Here's how JE lost: He put all his eggs in the Iowa basket- and Iowa is a retail politics state. He spent plenty of money and a shitload of time there. His only hope to move on was to win Iowa or come in a close second. Instead he essentially tied with Hillary (less than 1 pt separated them) and he came in 8 pts behind Obama. That wasn't the corporate MSM. Facts are funny things. And I used facts in my argument. You didn't employ them in yours.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Not this election.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
99. Corporations can be their own enemy that's why we have
state regulations, federal anti-trust laws, and a Corporate Responsibility Act. Monopolies destroy competition, innovation, and bring us worse/bad/cheapest products. They become fat and arrogant even trying to replace government.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Then vote for McCain--the REAL anti-corporate populist in the race. A man of the people, is he!
:rofl:
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. Your concern is duly noted.
Now tell us whether you're at all troubled by a Clinton presidency, especially in light of Bill's many questionable connections; his consultancy with and advocacy of Central American free-trade interests, hus consultacy with and advocacy of Dubai Ports World, his consultancy with and advocacy for Kazakhstanian uranium interests, and the list goes on and on...this is, after all, a man who would be very likely to have a significant unofficial advisory capacity in any Clinton administration, and many of his associations are in direct contradiction to the publicly stated positions of his spouse. Are you at all troubled by any of this? If not, why not?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. In Truth?
I think there'd be a lot of pushback.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That doesn't answer the question I asked.
Do those associations trouble you, or not? Yes or no.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not Playing
Nice hijack attempt, though.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. In other words, the answer is yes, but you don't want to admit it.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I See What You Want
Edited on Fri May-16-08 12:34 PM by Crisco
Here you may score more points than you will in this thread.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. But but but but ... HILLARY
Look. It's pretty clear even to this Hillary supporter that Obama is going to be the nominee. So crying "but but but but what about Hillary" is pretty lame and totally irrelevant.

We have concerns --LEGITIMATE concerns about the Dem nominee. And yet you cannot rationally address those. I have never thought Obama was the anti-corporate populist that his "progressive" supporters represented him to be. I think we're in for more of the same with Obama, and he is GOING to break a lot of hearts here. The disappointment will be palpable.

And we will say "We told you so."

Bake
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
100. Obama is part of those globalist organizations too.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Well you will feel much better with McCain
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avenger64 Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. Great stuff -
very informative.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. damn. i hate it when presidential candidates aren't 100% exactly my ideal of perfection.
99.44% is not good enough for me, might as well vote for a republican!

:sarcasm:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Not 99%, more like 20 to 40%, if that...
of course, when faced off against a candidate you agree with 0% of the time, you know who to vote for, but this claim that we are looking for perfection is foolhardy.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. if you want a hugo chavez, you're dreaming
it takes either time or revolution to replace massive, well ingrained institutions. we're not having a revolution in this country any time soon, so it takes time.

from what it sounds like you are hoping for, your ideal president might have a shot a generation or so from now IF the next couple of decades play out suitably. that same person and/or that same platform would not have a chance in today's environment.

the best we can hope for NOW is for someone to move us in the right direction and pave the way for a new economy that isn't based on corporate personhood and mindless profiteering. i don't know that obama is necessarily that person, but i do know that hillary and mccain are both worse in that regard.

at a minimum, i think obama's core constituents are the furthest removed from corporate interests as we've seen in a viable presidential candidate in quite a long time. that should pressume him in the right direction.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Exactly. We need to focus on what we can do NOW...
and plan for the rest as we go.

But handing this to the DLC (again) or McSame... counterproductive (to put it mildly).
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #33
101. After the election is the shocker.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. your faux outrage and concern have been duly noted
and immediately filed where it belongs.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
26. Which bothers you more -- McCain or Obama? You only get to choose one
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. That's the unfortunate reality
there really isn't a progressive in this race.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Real Liberals / Progressives don't get to that spot... not in this M$M controlled environment.
The Telecom Act and media consolidation fucked us so hard.

Thanks, Bill.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
28. I'm hopeful that he represents an opportunity for us to push forward...
...the movement of which we're a part. An opportunity that no other candidate has presented for a long time.

CUNY Professor Frances Fox Piven on a recent Democracy Now!:

You know, in 1932, FDR didn’t run with a good program; he ran with the same program the Democrats had run with in 1924 and 1928, and that wasn’t a good program. But nevertheless, his rhetoric encouraged people who were suffering as a result of the Depression—working people, the unemployed—and helped to fuel the movements, which then forced FDR to support initiatives which he otherwise would not have supported, including the right to organize...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/2/6/super_tuesday_roundtable_with_bill_fletcher

NGU.


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Original message
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Goodnevil Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. You assume a great deal more unity of thought
Edited on Fri May-16-08 02:02 PM by Goodnevil
than corporations in competition with one another are capable of. I've always thought that if they formed an alliance of sorts against the government, they would be better off.

A shadow alliance? Hey, I'm a big Cyberpunk fan but I'm just not biting on this. Obama will be forced to make certain compromises with backers, etc., but the fact of the matter is he's going to have to keep some of his promises in order to stay in office in 2012.

#1 concern of any first term sitting president: get a 2nd term.

Still, you know something's up with all the candidates because nobody talks about cutting the military. NOBODY. $650 billion dollars in a good year we spend on "defense" with 14 carrier battle groups (cause carriers are SO freakin' useful). Now $1 trillion a year and nobody is saying "hey, maybe we ought to start cutting down the military to something a little more reasonable...like $100 billion or $200 billion a year?"

Imagine what we could do with $500 billion dollars! Of course, then the defense companies would sell their wares elsewhere right? Can't have that, can we? Catch 22 and Eisenhower's warning comes to pass. Not because of some shadow alliance but because we built a Frankenstein's monster that we can't shut off.

Is it because of the MI complex or because it is simply unpopular to reduce the military when we are "threatened" by terrorist. Last time I checked a tank division would do diddly and squat to help out against terrorist.

Clinton could get away with cutting the military politically because the Cold War had ended and we didn't need as many soldiers standing on that wall. Of course then BAM! bin Laden had to act up.

Nobody is talking about shutting down bases. Hell, they're opening up new theaters in Africa. More weapons, 30,000 nukes. No real space defense initiatives that have garnered real funding or press.



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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Obama will be a one term President.
Closing down bases here and opening ones all around the world. Does that sound like a good plan to anyone?

"Clinton could get away with cutting the military politically because the Cold War had ended and we didn't need as many soldiers standing on that wall. Of course then BAM! bin Laden had to act up."

You mean the Empire Builders wanted to go to war on lies using 911 to do it. MO of Bush and Blair seen in the Downing Documents. They planned Iraq before 911 happened.

They are removing our ability to protect the "homeland" by removing our National Gurard and sending them all over the world to fight for corporations and corrupt leaders. Wonder why that is? For Empire.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
82. You're just wishing that at best
At least you admit he's going to win.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Your #1 Concern
Was Bush's #1 concern, I think. Certainly it was Rove's.

Although Bill got the peace dividend, he also got stuck with the enmity that came with it from the ground troops. I was at a party a couple of years ago and a reservist started going off on him. And it wasn't about Monica or DADT, it was about equipment and bases.

"I don't have to run faster than the lion, I just have to run faster than you." People seem to think China's about to put on turbo shoes. If so, it's the price we pay for waking a sleeping giant, no?
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Goodnevil Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Not sure who woke them up
or if we can put them to sleep without biological or chemical weapons.

So the defense corporations will go on like Krupp Arms while the U.S. falls.

There's an interesting read: "The Arms of Krupp."

Mandatory reading for anyone interested in the MI of America.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #48
92. That panel of base closure people were scary to me.
How did they get the power to make our military smaller? They weren't representatives in power but hand picked. I knew something rotten was afoot and they were disarming us.

Even now closed bases are being re-open for Blackwater and mercinary troops. It is treason from within.

As Jefferson said, you can't destroy democracy except from within.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
47. You're going to have to provide a better link.
"Organic Consumers" sounds like an interesting site, but not for politics especially presidential politics.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Huh?
The example cited is food activists and their relationship to the Farm Bill.

I can only assume you are unfamiliar with the events surrounding the USDA's 1990s attempts to water down organic foods' standards as a favor to corporations, and the ensuing consumers' rebellion which resulted in one of the largest public responses to government in modern history.
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
52. if by some miracle O should win, a lot of dems are going to be very disappointed.
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Goodnevil Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. This is what I get for clearing my ignore list
ARGH
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. If there's one thing this primary has proven...
...it's that some so-called "Dems" are going to be very disappointed no matter who we nominate.

NGU.


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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
57. Yeah, just look at the funding HRC and Obama have gotten!
Obama got all that funding from Corporations and lobbyists while HRC got all the funding from grassroots donations.

Oh, wait.... it was the other way around!

They also seem to have a lot of his stances wrong, and claim he has shifted his positions when he has been consistent. I don't know anything about the site, but this is nothing but a hit piece full of untruths.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. Actually
Obama has a bundler system similar to what W's was with those Rangers and Pioneers.

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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Loretta Lynn was right!
Everything is a lot flakier with Crisco.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #72
76. Hahaha!
You're really funny.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. Now that was an obvious desperate ploy,
comparing Obama's campaign funding to W's. Here is what I am talking about:


% from Donors of % from Donors of % from Donors of
$200 or less $2,300+ $4,600
Obama, Barack 43% 29% 5%
Clinton, Hillary 27% 47% 22%
McCain, John 20% 50% 12%

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordems.php?cycle=2008

And like I said, it completely misrepresents his stances. For example, "Supports PATRIOT Act". He helped lead the efforts to REFORM the PATRIOT Act. "Supports NCLB". He has consistently criticized NCLB and wants to completely overhaul it. Compare what the article says to Obama's website:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

As I said before, it is a hit piece full of untruths.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. It's An Accurate Comparison
Look at Obama's bundlers.

http://news.google.com/news?q=obama's+bundlers

Seventy-nine "bundlers," five of them billionaires, have tapped their personal networks to raise at least $200,000 each. They have helped the campaign recruit more than 27,000 donors to write checks for $2,300, the maximum allowed. Donors who have given more than $200 account for about half of Obama's total haul, which stands at nearly $240 million.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/10/AR2008041004045.html

27000 * 2300 = 62,100,000

At least 1/4 of Obama's financing has come from these bundler networks.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. No, it's not. Did you even read my post?
43% of Obama's financing comes from donations of $200 or less. There is no comparison between his fundraising and the chimperor's.

And once again, the article is full of fallacies.
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kid a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
63. I know batboy...I played batboy...batboy voted Obama...you, sir, are no batboy. nt
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
69. You're worried about spin linking Obama to Hillary supporter and former Clinton official Bob Rubin?
What a crock of BS!

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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
70. Have fun while you can, sweetie.
In another week or so, this primary will be over and you will have to work a LOT harder to conceal your obsessive hatred of Obama behind a veneer of at least token support for the man who will be our parties candidate.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
71. Then go vote mccain, scaredy cat
any day now, You shall be released....
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. uncalled for and counter-productive
Taunting and sarcasm can serve no useful purpose, and it is only making things worse. Please reconsider your approach. You may be "winning" little Internet sparring matches, and feeling superior and triumphant, but you are poisoning the atmosphere and ripping the party apart.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #74
102. Wrong. It is the HRC boosters who post divisive crap like this pile of shit OP that are
"poisoning the atmosphere and ripping the party apart."

Go weep us an Amazon elsewhere why don't you, and take your buddy the OP with you? You two can have a good cry together without bothering the rest of us.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
80. Actually the evidence is
that the movement was pushed back by the Clinton Administration. Remember how we had majorities in congress before they came along? How we had controlled the House of Representatives for 55 straight years until 1994?

Free trade, a Reagan brainchild, was dead, dead, stone cold dead, until Bill Clinton picked it up and ran with it to make nice with the Republicans.

One candidate (Obama) has 1.5 million small donors (populist) another (Clinton) depends on connections to power and wealth (elitist). Hillary was entirely happy to be an elitist, campaign on the left and right coasts in big metropolitan areas, and call it done on super tuesday. She only became a "populist" when that did not work. All of a sudden it was "nafta" "nafta" "nafta". But without the Clinton Administration's handiwork, "nafta" would never have been an issue.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Bush Signed NAFTA
In December 1992. Free trade was not exactly dead.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. You can't get that CSPAN tape of X-President Bush celebrating 10 years
Edited on Sun May-18-08 09:55 AM by mac2
of NAFTA. He said his dream is to unite all of North and South American into one trade/government union before he died....called the Americas Union. It was treason right on TV. How dare he make his own goals without the consent of the people!

These trade agreements aren't just about trade. They are a political agenda without the consent of the people...just like the EU. There are six or seven huge unions planned under World Government. Fascism.

I was shocked when I heard a well known Black Caucus member talk about the African Union like it already existed. Did they ask the people? Once they go to DC why do they want to rule the world...their way? Who do they think they are anyway? Certainly not representatives of the people.

Both parties seem to be involved in keeping NAFTA and world govenment agenda in place. I don't see a anti-globalist running for President or in the Congress.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #80
91. X-President Bush did blame Clinton for eight years of delay
regarding his unions under World Government. He said, they were back on track (with his son of-course).

I don't see Obama getting rid of NAFTA. So he's one of them.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #80
103. Clinton and Bill Daley
Edited on Sun May-18-08 01:47 PM by mac2
http://www.chicagoclout.com/weblog/archives/2008/02/bill_cunningham_calls_mayor_mo.html

Who is Bill Daley? He is the present Mayor of Chicago's brother and son of the long time Mayor Daley. He was also Al Gore's campaign manager for President.

He helped write and pass the NAFTA treaty. Chicago is a Sanctuary City allowing illegal immigrants. These guys are huge globalists (banker).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Daley Yipes he was also a member of the CFR along with Obama and his wife.

"In 1997, Daley became Secretary of Commerce in the second administration of President Bill Clinton, and he remained at that post until July 2000, when he became chairman of Vice President Al Gore's presidential campaign, where he was in charge of choosing a vice presidential nominee."

Bill Daley picked Lieberman for VP. Good god don't ever allow this man into our party to make important decisions ever again.

Seems the globalists and corporatists all mostly come from Chicago. They are Leo Strauss minded where the elite rule the few. They do think they are better than the average Joe because they went to college,etc. That's not true of the East and West coast college people. Emm arrogant so and sos.
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Rene Donating Member (758 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-17-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
85. 1st thing bho would do is open the door to the nuclear industry...2nd will try to allow drilling
in Anway. Showing that photo of bho 'walking with labor'...when they were actually management in white hard hats was very telling. he's a corporatist....pandering to workers
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Which candidate wants that?
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Higher Standard Donating Member (499 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-18-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
96. Links?
That's a bold accusation about the nuclear inductry and drilling. Got links to back that up?
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