where the hell was Obama's army?

[wrando]

If you people who are new to politics, those who are energized by Obama and think he is all that important, I have to wonder.

I wonder how many of our young soldiers would be alive today if you thought they where as important in 2004, as some politician in 2008.

bill from ct

[grasswire]

1. I was wondering that myself.

Many people seem more willing to fight for Obama's candidacy than they were/are willing to fight to stop the war.

[The Doctor.]

272. Thank you for providing the perfect location for me to demonstrate

how ridiculous a question Williams' is. My response;

William;

If they're "new to politics", then likely they didn't understand the reasons or consequences for the war and the role they might play in confronting it back in 2004.

That's four years difference William. There are people who are into politics now that couldn't name one cabinet official four years ago. We might be talking about fifteen year-olds in 2003/2004 who were more interested in filtering through their hormones than worrying about international diplomacy.

There are many more who were likely not exposed to all of the information that we were several years ago, and now realize how serious and illegal the war really is.


Your question shows a profound ignorance of simple logic; The longer an issue is active, the more people will become aware of it. Therefore, it logically follows that four years ago, fewer people understood and took an active interest in getting Kerry elected than are now interested in and pursuing solutions.

That is a testament to the work of the true media and people like Duers getting out there and informing people.

We've done a good job of informing people, so now there are more than there were before.


Your question makes the entirely erroneous assumption that all the people that support Obama now and are against the war were as fully aware of the issue four years ago as they are today. That's simply backwards.
Then, stunningly, you call them "new voters" without yourself recognizing that you've basically just answered your own question William.


Please think these things through.


Cheers,

Dr. E

[movonne]

2. I think this election is very important and it depends on who wins

as to what is going to happen to our soldiers...

[wrando]

7. non responsive

where were you in 2004?

[Forkboy]

163. Just like your brainwaves.

[countingbluecars]

3. Many of us were in the streets

time and time again protesting the war. I have noticed that most of the DUers I met at DC protests are now Obama supporters.

[wrando]

10. if you there

then you're not who I'm addressing

bill from ct

[The Doctor.]

You don't even understand who you're addressing. The logical fallacy of your question is astounding.

Do you realize that as time passes, more people become aware of active issues than less?

You're blaming people who are passionate now for not being involved back when they likely knew less, little, or even nothing of the issues back in '04. Do you understand how ridiculous that is?

[MikeDJohn]

4. I was working for Kerry in 2004, Don't understand your question.

I may be new here to the DU forum, but I have been involved in politics for many years.

[wrando]

12. then you have nothing to answer for

bill from ct

[MikeDJohn]

58. I don't understand your answer to me that I have nothing to answer for. eom

[wrando]

82. read the post

I'm not addressing this to people that were not drawn into politics by Obama, or that fought for the election in 2004

bill from ct

[The Doctor.]

It's pretty simple;

He's referring to people that weren't involved and blaming them for not being involved then, because if they're involved now, they should have been involved then, because obviously everyone that knows what they know now must have also known what they know now then and should have done something about what they should have known even if they didn't know because now they know.

Get it?

[Egnever]

5. I was out protesting before we started this mess

Its probably the biggest reason I dont support hillary. I would be willig to bet that many that have been against this fiasco from the begining including before 2004 are now supporting Obama.

We were there where were you?

[wrando]

21. where was I?

68-71
In the streets of New Haven and D.C.

2003 writing congress and senators screaming for them to say no to Iraq

2004 voting for Kerry

bill from ct

[Hepburn]

41. About the same here....

...but I started protesting the VN war a bit, but not much, earlier than you did.

And...after I stood on the protest lines against VN, I went to the VA hospital and volunteered to do anything I could to help with any of the sick or injured vets.

To me, it was all about the soldiers who were nothing more than cannot fodder to our fucking war mongering government. It was killing me inside to watch guys my age come back from VN totally fucked up for nothing.

My first political campaign? 1960 when I was 12 years old and on my own ~~ my parents were Repubbies ~~ I got on a city bus and went downtown and volunteered at the JFK headquarters.

To say the least, I have been involved.

[wrando]

87. yes you have

we have similar experiences

bill from ct

[yourguide]

64. Well Bill from CT

We respect your commitment to the democratic party. However, I dont think the younger voters or any other Obama voters need to justify their whereabouts to YOU in 2004 my friend.

It's pompous to assume that age automatically equates into wisdom. Sometimes it just takes a special person to open people's eyes or make them care.

In 2008 I voted Obama and will do so again
In 2006 I voted for Tasini to be my senator in NY
In 2004 I voted for Kucinich in the primary, then Kerry in the general
In 2002 I voted for Grey Davis
In 2000 I voted for Gore and BEGGED my friends not to vote for Nader
In 2000 I voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton to be my senator
In 1998 I voted for Chuck Schumer
In 1996 I voted for Clinton
In 1992 I voted for Clinton
In 1988 I voted for Dukakis

Anything else in question I voted dem straight down the ticket. I have never voted for a R in all of my life.

I cant even count the number of anti iraq war protests I attended.

Enough, why you cant be happy that Obama has brought new people into the process?

[wrando]

96. not the point

this Obama army crap just boils my ass

you're not new to this and you know I'm not addressing people like you

I have a son in college who I been screaming at for 4 years

he voted for Obama and I asked him why

he just shrugged his shoulders


Bill from ct

[yourguide]

103. So you're mad that he voted?

Oh that's brilliant.

"When someone is appealing to your hopes as opposed to your fears to whom should you be supporting? I think you should go with the candidate that plays to your hope instead of preying on your fear." - Bill Clinton

The above statement is why. It's that cut and dry. Its a chance to change the fricking political dynasty thats been going on in this country. When you see the same old faces, and it's still the same old crap, maybe just maybe someone new can challenge the system.


So why are you mad? Because he cant put words to why he voted for Obama? Or because he voted for Obama?

Do you think after you yelling at him for 4 years to vote that he finally went out to vote because he didnt care?

[wrando]

121. I'm glad he voted

I just wish he knew why

and why it was too much trouble in 2004

bill from ct

[Exilednight]

126. Maybe it's not his failure as a son, but your failure as a father. n/t

[MadBadger]

129. Best comment of the thread

[wrando]

132. maybe

bill from ct

[The Call Up]

172. How the hell did

Lieberman win your state of CT?

I wasn't even living in CT and I was following that election with fury.

[wrando]

178. repubs and stupid dems

that SOB lied and the idiots voted

bill from ct

[LowerManhattanite]

194. Damn. That's cold.

In tone. As to it's dead-on-ness?

I shall hold my tongue.

[libnnc]

127. that's your fault, sparky

Not his.

You obviously didn't instill in him an interest in the political process in 2004.



How wonderful that he's now risen above your failures.

Good for him.

[The Call Up]

175. I voted for and gave money to Howard Dean

the only true anti-War candidate. When the MSM decided that the main stream candidate, Kerry, should get the prize, I started to lean towards Edwards.

I voted against Kerry in the Primaries, but supported him in the General Election.

And I damned near considered moving to Ireland when Bush won. If we didn't have a cat who would have had to be quarrantined in Ireland for 6 months to a year we probably would have done it.

[wrando]

223. good for you

bill from ct

[yourguide]

136. dupe

dupe post - deleted

[yourguide]

137. Bill

He's a kid...and when you arent facing the draft or something that directly affects you, when you're that young it takes a minute to understand how ALL of this affects you and everyone else.

Suddenly a candidate comes along that doesnt seem like politics as usual, a candidate that is engaging the youth vote. Yeah, it's a disappointment that it was too much trouble in 2004, but with all due respect he may not have had the maturity level to understand why it was important to vote for a candidate that you cant personally relate to at all. Jesus, even I had a hard time voting for kerry...I didnt LIKE him but I understood the consequences.

So in 2004 the younger generation honestly had no one to relate to. Think about how women are coming out in droves for HRC, it's because they relate to her. Many first time women voters went to her as well.

Obama speaks with an ease, casualness, and directness that is easy for people to relate to - especially young people, it's not rhetoric and political speak. I completely understand how and why he brought the youth vote out. For the same reason I can see why many women stood for HRC, they related to her, how unfairly it was perceived she was treated by some of the males in the media etc etc.

That, IMHO, is why all of these kids who werent engaged in 2004 are engaged now.


*Edited to add: you need to understand when you were younger there was more of a sense of urgency for younger people to get involved in politics, the threat of the draft (not happening in 2004), and photos of 100s of soldiers coming home in body bags being aired on the news night after night after night (again not happening now or in 2004). This war is different, not in it's brutality, but in the way it directly affects the people here...and when you're young and those images arent in your face every day, and there is no threat of the draft then it is easy to think about girls, and school, and cars, and what you plan to do to enjoy your newfound freedom as a young adult.

[wrando]

146. I agree

But what is more important than human lives?

It seems a cool demeanor trumps human suffering

bill from ct

[yourguide]

153. Societal note:

You need to understand when you were younger there was more of a sense of urgency for younger people to get involved in politics, the threat of the draft (not happening in 2004), and photos of 100s of soldiers coming home in body bags being aired on the news night after night after night (again not happening now or in 2004).

This war is different, not in it's brutality, but in the way it directly affects the people here...and when you're young and those images arent in your face every day, and there is no threat of the draft then it is easy to think about girls, and school, and cars, and what you plan to do to enjoy your newfound freedom as a young adult.

So couple that with not relating to Kerry and I think it's an easy path to apathy.

Why cant you cut him some slack for finally getting involved in the process or are you just angry that it's Obama that got him to care and not you?

[wrando]

156. all you had to do is look

these people were not in the dark, we all knew what was happening in Iraq, they just couldn't be bothered

bill from ct

[yourguide]

162. yes, and it bothers you now

that someone FINALLY got their attention? Managed to do something that other politicians couldnt manage to do?

Dont expect your son who was a teenager in 2004 at that young age to have the maturity to understand how important all of this is especially without having the catalysts that you had that lead you to opposing the Vietnam war.

I am certainly a very different person than I was when I was 18, I assume you are as well.

And again I ask you, where was Clinton on Iraq? What about Leiberman, did you vote for Leiberman in CT?

How comfortable are you that Hillary threatened to obliterate iran?

Again I ask you, are you angry because Obama made your son finally care when you couldnt? Is that it? Why couldnt you just be proud that he finally voted? Did you congratulate your son for casting his first ballot? Or did you belittle him for not voting for Hillary? Did you send the right message?

Do you think if no images were coming home from Vietnam, or there wasnt a draft, that at age 18 you would have been any less apathetic than he was in 2004?

[wrando]

174. that's not the point

I'm not here arguing for Hillary or any politician, they're all cut from the same cloth. I'm a democrat because they are the more compassionate party, but this bunch is dancing and gloating about Obama and most don't know or care why. I'm not talking so much about the people at DU but the media and the congress are doing nothing and this war goes on.

We could have stopped it in 2004, but Kerry wasn't cool enough.

bill from ct

[yourguide]

181. No...kerry walked talked and acted

like a politician, oh and then there was that nasty swiftboat issue.

we could have stopped this in 2000, but people voted nader.

stop it, dont take this out on the youth - take it out on Kerry, take it out on the media, take it out on our elected representatives...but dont take it out on people who are newly joining the party.

[wrando]

185. kerry?

Give me a break

Are you telling me that Kerry wasn't clear about ending the war?

What more was needed, I can't give people a pass for looking out for number one when they could have stopped the suffering with so little effort.

bill from ct

[yourguide]

193. I feel sorry for your son...

and I really feel sorry for you.

[wrando]

217. thanks

all I do is work so my four kids can have anything they want

bill from ct

[yourguide]

226. and it seems to me

you are resentful of it.

And instead of becoming a positive influence in your son's life, and congratulating him on finally making it to the polls, you chose to find fault.

as they say, money can't buy you love...

[wrando]

231. you're assuming too much

I did congratulate him for voting. I was just disappointed in his reasons, but I didn't tell him that.

money buys health care and cars and a nice place to live and college

I bleed for my money and I'm 55 yrs old, if that's not love, then at least I do my duty.

bill from ct

[yourguide]

243. Perhaps he just didnt want to argue with you over his choice.

[wrando]

245. perhaps

but he knows that I happy he voted

bill from ct

[karynnj]

255. Why blame Kerry who in case you didn't noticed has been a pretty big supporter of Obama

You might also consider that there is no way Obama would be running without the exceptional job he did as Kerry's Keynote speaker.

He is a politician, but one who has his roots in activism, both on the environment and against the Vietnam War. Obama is a politician as well. You might want to actually look at some things Kerry did - he is far less "a politician" in the derogatory way you use it. There is NO OTHER politician who would have risked his viability to stand against Nixon as a young veteran with impeccable connections and the status of being a highly decorated veteran or against Reagan at the height of his popularity by investigating the RW Contras (who Gore and Clinton thought should be helped as well as the Republicans) and a third time to fight the terrorist bank, BCCI.

To blame him because the media propagated lies - even after they were disproved shows a lack of thoughtfulness. Those lies and that hatred were rooted in Kerry's exceptional stand in 1971 calling on Nixon to end a war that the politicians knew couldn't be won, to give the veterans the aid they needed to heal physically and mentally and a call to turn from the foreign policy that got us into Vietnam. He did this while pushing the vets and young to stay within the system and fight for change - at a time when many against the war were speaking of Mao and violent revolution. Kerry took a huge amount of abuse from the Nixon administration who on tapes never intended for the public said he was the ONLY antiwar leader they feared. He also took a lot of criticism from the far left. Throughout that time he stayed true to who he was.

I agree it makes no sense to blame people who got involved only this year or last - some were too young in 2004. Not to mention - it's always better late than never.

[wrando]

259. i'm not blaming Kerry

I'm pissed at the people who were not motivated to vote for him because he didn't inspire or they had better things to do.
If people were too young then they can't be held responsible.

The inspiration should have been the war and all the suffering.

The point is you shouldn't need a politician to have you do the right thing.

bill from ct

[last1standing]

130. "I have a son in college who I been screaming at for 4 years"

Is it any wonder he just shrugged?

After reading your post I'm inclined to just shrug as well. You want to bully everyone into doing things your way. When that doesn't happen you throw a tantrum.

[MattBaggins]

219. You keep saying people are not the ones

you are addressing. Are you having trouble finding someone to jump up and be your strawman?

[wrando]

225. a couple have owned up

honesty is sometimes in short supply

bill from ct

[mrreowwr_kittty]

279. Oh for fucks sake, Bill, get a family therapist!

Don't take your personal issues out on us here.

[MadBadger]

6. You've got some fucking nerve.

[wrando]

22. you better believe it

bill from ct

[lojasmo]

227. Your post count intrigues me. EOM.

[wrando]

242. you're easily intrigued

bill from ct

[lojasmo]

274. I'm not incurious. EOM.

[Skidmore]

8. Some of us older ones have been out here fighting against the war all along.

Making the calls and dealing with those politicians who, like HRC, could find more excuses for supporting this travesty than you could shake a stick at. Some of these young people were young teens when this mess began--and 18 year old voter was only 13 when IWR passed. Obama stepped forward and took a leadership role from within the political establishment.

Where was Hillary? She only came to her position after the rest of the candidates forced the issue. Otherwise she would sure still sound a lot like McCain and Bush.

[wrando]

24. excused

I'm not talking about those who where already engaged

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

28. Nah, you just want to insult Obama's young voters and blame them for the death of American Soldiers

right?

[wrando]

99. any voters who fit the description

bill from ct

[Kali]

9. you imply they weren't there but how do you know?

besides younger folks may have been in high school in 2004

[wrando]

27. many excuses

when I was in high school we were politically active and it was about the same thing

civil rights and war

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

30. If there were a draft, high schools now would get more politically active.

[wrando]

100. why?

that's my point

only when it's your ass do you get worked up

bill from ct

[MikeDJohn]

62. So do you, as a civil rights activist, support Clinton's statements

about hard-working white voters? DO you support her despite her vote on the IWR?

What's so magical about Hillary ? She's not behaving like a peacenik, nor a civil rights activist. IMO

[wrando]

101. the hell with clinton

what does she have to do with this subject?

bill from ct

[charlie]

11. Fellow named Dean, heard of him?

You're going to fault the newbies for the war, because they don't come running for the great taste of Hillary's butt? Weird.

[wrando]

29. No straw man arguments please

Hillary was part of the problem

bill from ct

[charlie]

114. So you're a connoisseur of straw

I see you yapping downthread about the arrival of a "messiah."

[NorthernSpy]

142. THANK YOU for saying that!

[charlie]

165. Nothing he doesn't already know

Kids are probably taking the shortcut through Mr Crankypants' yard again today.

[tabasco]

13. Where the fuck were you, Jack?

Who the fuck do you think you are?

You're blaming Obama supporters for the Iraq war? That's just fucking stupid.

[wrando]

32. if you sat on your hands

then yes you are partly to blame

my generation stood up and stopped a war

this current bunch, with no skin in the game. did nothing

now the messiah arrives and I'm suppose to get excited?

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

35. What's your generation?

[wrando]

48. do the math

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

51. Jeez, what's up your ass Gramps?

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

81. Well I'm young, and you're an older fucker. So I called you gramps.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

107. Bring it on Geezer.

[libnnc]

111. this guy's a fucking mental case

jesus

[countingbluecars]

110. He's not the nitwit here. n/t

[wrando]

115. five words

you must be one of the guilty

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

118. That's seven

Is this fucker for real?

[libnnc]

119. *snarf*

[countingbluecars]

122. four words

you are a loser

[rockymountaindem]

124. Easy being a keyboard warrior, in't it?

Almost as easy as being an internet blowhard.

[wrando]

135. not easy

to have to take crap from some diaper jockeys

bill from ct

[rockymountaindem]

141. Huggies or Depends?

[wrando]

148. I don't know what turns you on

and I don't want to know

bill from ct

[rockymountaindem]

158. Well, the first person to bring up diapers was *you*

And since I've got better things to do today than parse the finer points of this issue, I'll let you have the last word.

[greguganus]

220. Don't blame us because you feel you are a failure to your son. Calling Dr. Phil. n/t

[yourguide]

88. Ah another non educated HRC supporter

it's "yours" not "your's"

[Ice-9]

49. Question

Which war did your generation stop? I assume you're not talking about the Vietnam War. That war went on for *20 YEARS* before it was stopped: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_ref-0 (see especially footnote 1). I'd say the current generation is doing pretty well by comparison.

Are you referring to some other war?

[wrando]

109. yea we stopped it

that war could still be going on

McCain wouldn't have stopped it

bill from ct

[AllentownJake]

112. You didn't stop shit

Are you talking about President McGovern.

You fucking idiot Nixon won in 1972.

[wrando]

125. you are clueless

do you know how many of our soldiers died so that SOB could get reelected?

if people had just given a shit in 2004 just think where we might be now






bill from ct

[AllentownJake]

128. I'm sorry

You didn't do shit in the 60s but smoke pot and attend a few rallies and now you have a high horse to sit on for it.

As much as that generation likes to say they did things to stop the war. The counter culture actually did more to ensure that the war went on by encouraging people to vote for the GOP because they were afraid of the hippies. That's how Nixon won election twice.

[wrando]

131. you know this?

you're wrong

bill from ct

[AllentownJake]

134. McGovern's Army

Lost two fucking elections.

The Vietnam Anti-War movement was an abysmall failure. It started in 1966 and the war ended 8 years later.

Bravo. Way to fucking end that war.

Are you actually working for the Clinton Campaign cause your just about stupid enough to be part of that Titanic.

[wrando]

149. McGovern was an idiot

we didn't choose him

they killed our choices

bill from ct

[MikeDJohn]

That's about the most snarky of a response in your own thread...

so far. I had friends die in Vietnam, and I was out there protesting. I think many of the Obama supporters here were not even conceived of when NIXON and FORD finally brought our troops home, 34 years ago.

You are now blaming sperm and eggs for not being active against the Vietnam war?

I blame no one but Hillary and Bill Clinton for running a losing campaign when they could easily have won my support with magnanimous campaigning instead of complaining, and honesty instead of sound bite wizardry !

[wrando]

151. you are just playing dumb

aren't you?

bill from ct

[tabasco]

69. You're talking right out of your ass.

You have no idea what generation I am from.

You have no idea what the Obama supporters on this board did.

You are just a bitter dead-ender who blames the ills of the world on Obama.

Obama spoke out against the war when it was unpopular to do so.

Hillary, with no skin in the game, gave madman Bush the loaded gun.

But you screech about Obama and his supporters.

You make no sense at all. Just a sorry-ass whiner.

[wrando]

113. what are you talking out of?

I don't care what generation you're from

if the shoe fits

if it doesn't then there's no need for you to engage

bill from ct

[onenote]

70. Hey, I protested that war and this one. And I support Obama. So what's your point?

[wrando]

152. nothing with you

bill from ct

[Shakespeare]

14. What a bullshit post.

A lot of his support came straight out of the antiwar movement, and most Obama supporters I know were VERY active in the 2004 campaign. Where the fuck do you get off making a boneheaded assumption like that?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

44. wrong-o, wrando. I'm an Edwards supporter.

I'll vote for the nominee, which is clear at this point will be Obama.

What, precisely, is the point of your OP other than to be utterly idiotic flamebait? Are you suggesting that Obama supporters are somehow to blame for Kerry's loss? If that's what you're saying, then DO elaborate.

[wrando]

102. can you understand Shakespeare?

then it should be obvious who I'm addressing

bill from ct

[Shakespeare]

105. No, you're using a broadbrush and baseless attack because you're pissed at your son.

You have issues.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for this post.

[wrando]

140. not so

I discussed this with my son just now, and he told me that everyone at school was voting for Obama, because it will be cool to have a black president.

hard to argue that logic

bill from ct

[Shakespeare]

155. And you think their take on Obama speaks for the entirety of his base?

You're not very smart, bill from ct.

[wrando]

160. I never said that

I don't care about Obama or Hillary it's not going to matter which one gets in

it's too late, what's done is done

2004 would have saved lives

that's when we needed an army and the ones who did nothing are the ones I have a problem with

better late than never doesn't help those that are gone or destroyed

bill from ct

[Shakespeare]

173. No, that's EXACTLY what you're saying. n/t

[wrando]

177. you people just don't get it

if you did you have stopped this war in 2004

bill from ct

[Shakespeare]

180. Oh, we get it, wrando.

We definitely get it.

[wrando]

186. so you think

mores the pity

bill from ct

[onenote]

73. I'm part of that army, I'm 55. What exactly is your point?

[wrando]

143. do you vote every election?

bill from ct

[MadBadger]

15. Where was Hillary in 2002?

[wrando]

37. part of the problem

just like BO, once he became senator

their war votes were identical

bill from ct

[Exultant Democracy]

16. Many/most of the good people of DU have been tearing their hair out since 2000,

investigating corruption and voting integrity, marching in the streets and working on campaigns. Directing this towards the people here isn't justified.

You should also consider that all these college kids donating their loans and working their fingers to the bone for Obama couldn't even vote in 04.

[wrando]

38. not talking about those people

[MikeDJohn]

72. Who are you talking about? Republicans who have seen the light? eom

[wrando]

98. if you can't understand who I'm talking about

you shouldn't be voting

bill from ct

[FrenchieCat]

17. Some where in High School, some like me were marching against Iraq,

and supporting democratic candidates that didn't vote for the IWR until we had to.

Some were fighting in Iraq in 2004.

Why? Where in the fuck were you?

[dogday]

68. And some were like me, sending their sons off to war....

Since neither Candidate has any kind of plan to end the war ASAP, that is why I support neither, but will vote for the Dem nominee in November...

I am more surprised that neither of our candidates are calling for an immediate end to the war....

[wrando]

154. for sure

bill from ct

[EmilyAnne]

18. I was organizing and attending protests before 2004, working on the Dean campaign and then on the

Kerry campaign. I was disappointed about Kerry being the nominee, but I got my shit together and did the right thing because I cared about those young soldiers that you are talking about. New Democrats, old Democrats, converted Democrats, Hillary-loving Democrats, whatever...I hope we can all get it together and do the right thing in 2008.

[wrando]

39. good for you

bill from ct

[EmilyAnne]

54. But I really don't get your point. Are you really saying that if some Obama supporters

were not politically involved early enough for your liking, they then have no right to an opinion? What does it take to earn that right? Do I have more of a right to my opinion then, say, Hillary Clinton because I was against the IWR and protested against it many times even before she cast her vote for it?

I want to look toward the future at this point. The fact that there is so much new political enthusiasm and the fact that there are so many new Democrats bodes well for our future.

[wrando]

164. I'm not the issue

It's the dead and the destroyed that are the issue

and what's important to people

charisma trumps humanity

it's makes me sad

bill from ct

[w13rd0]

19. Perhaps you aren't aware of this...

...but there were protests, and letter writing, and an election in 2006 where we took the House and Senate. The media, rather than voicing the concerns of those that were anti-war, hired Pentagon mouthpieces, ignored and demonized dissent, and pretty much went along with everything the Bush regime wanted. And in 2004, it was one bad shake after another. So really...is this appropriate?

[wrando]

43. gee that is news

why no army for Kerry, he would have stopped this war

bill from ct

[berni_mccoy]

20. Democracy For America (formerly Dean For America) *plus* Ohio was stolen in 2004

[wrando]

46. BS

If you had an army like your "BO army" Kerry would have won, and the war would be history

bill from ct

[irish.lambchop]

23. Wow. Judge AND Jury and not even concerned about the

'evidence'. So many of us were in the streets, writing letters, making calls. Do you honestly think no one cared until Obama emerged on the scene?

[wrando]

47. If

you were on the streets as you say then you are not the problem

bill from ct

[irish.lambchop]

60. "as you say" sounds eerily similar to

"as far as I know". You'll forgive me if I don't feel giddy about your 'pardon', your honor.

[MikeDJohn]

83. The problem NEVER was the American voter, it was the people who

were elected in 2000, despite half a million MORE votes for Gore, who would never have created this mess.

The problem is Bush/McSame,NOT your fellow Americans. Please stop slamming your fellow Americans, some of them were mistaken in 2000, 2004, and some are STILL mistaken now, wanting more of the same.

But those who support Obama, no matter their age, no matter their voting history, those people are NOT your enemy.

[irish.lambchop]

108. Wrando just needs some attention because

he's hurting, for whatever reason. After he dismounts his very high horse, I think a good night's rest will help

[wrando]

168. the bleeding could have stopped

2000 was huge, bigger than huge

every vote cast in the entire country ripped up

but 2004 we could have stopped this

and my fellow Americans didn't think it important enough after 4 years of Bush to fix it

I couldn't believe 2000 and 2004 made it stand up

bill from ct

[Straight Shooter]

25. Kerry didn't have "charisma." He had a whole lot more competence, though.

I can't wait to see the "charismatic" candidate the GOP throws at us in 2012. One thing is for certain, they learn from their mistakes when it comes to losing power.

[wrando]

50. it shouldn't take charisma

to think abiut our soldiers

bill from ct

[EmilyAnne]

57. Who wasn't thinking about the soldiers. This is totally disingenuous.

[wrando]

171. who

I'll tell you who wasn't thinking about the soldiers. The self absorbed generation that only took up politics because it became cool. Obama made it cool. Which is not his fault and he's probably ok, but if he leaves the scene will they lose interest.

The repubs say support the troops and they use them like a chess game and throw them away when they're wounded or twisted. It just galled me when I saw this Obama's army crap. They better find a different name.

bill from ct

[Straight Shooter]

268. The whole idea of "charisma" as a desirable political trait repels me.

Charisma is an aura. I want substance. I didn't like Kerry, but I could support him because I saw that he had substance. On the other hand, his "substance" evaporated when he capitulated the morning after the election, after calling upon his supporters for cash. No excuses for that.

[Heather MC]

26. after what happen in 2000 I stayed out of 2004 I figured Bush was going to cheat to win once again!

So I stayed Home. dumb maybe, but my vote didn't matter in 2000, by 2004 i figured what's the point.

[wrando]

52. why should it matter this time?

at least you're honest

bill from ct

[Heather MC]

92. I hope it will b/c more people seem willing to fight for it this time.

time will tell

[Hepburn]

31. Out working for him....

...that army of supporters for Obama could be one of the primary reasons that Hillary lost!

[wrando]

56. blood on your hands?

why didn't you work for Kerry, not enough dead soldiers then?

bill from ct

[MikeDJohn]

90. I think Hepburn was out working alongside YOU for Kerry

From what I gather from her other posts here, she never worked for McSame/Bush or anyone else Rethuglican.

[dawgman]

33. I marched in late 2000 early 2001 with about 99,999 others `

through downtown Seattle. I have voted that way and supported those candidates who believed as I did. I have financed those candidates. So don't get sanctimonious with me.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Exilednight]

36. Just something to think about. Some of them were only 14-17 years old at the time of .........

the last election.

I voted in my first election in 1988, but being in the military prevented me from taking a more active role in political campaigning. To be honest, at 18 and in love with politics made me a sort of oddball when compared to my peers. It's finally cool again.

Here's my questions to you.

Why bring this up? All it does is push these people, who any Democrat would need to win the GE, away from politics. They are the future of our party.

I understand being upset about 4,000+ dead in an unjust war, but let's work on preventing another 4,000 from dying.

[Catherina]

42. Shhh, Some Clinton supporters are not very good at math n/t

[wrando]

61. you were in the military

when should this subject be pushed?

how old do you have to be to have a conscience

bill from ct

[Exilednight]

89. In order to gain a conscience, you must be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them .........

contrary to popular belief, no one is born with a D or R in front of their name. It's something that each of us must figure out for ourselves.

Every once in a while there is a cultural shift in America. You then have two choices. You can fight against it (like you seem to be doing), or you can embrace those who want to make a difference.

You want to know why rethugs kick our ass in most elections? Too bad, I'm going to tell you anyway. Rethugs don't ask "where were you?". They say "thanks for coming over, now let's get to work".

The pendulum is finally swinging back our way. What do you want to do? Do you want to insult those that want to help us, or do you want to get to work?

Yes, 4,000 dead is horrible, but let's get to work on preventing the next 4,000.

[wrando]

183. cultural shift is fine

I'm a 60's guy and cultural shifts were what we wanted

but common decency and compassion shouldn't have to be made cool for people to do the right thing

bill from ct

[quakerboy]

40. I was going door to door

for Kerry(well, first for Kucinich, then Kerry). My little sis was a year too young to vote. My fiance was not sure if as a CanadianAmerican Dual, she was allowed to vote. There are three of us accounted for.

An unfortunate number of my friends who were in the midst of listening to their parents tell them that GW was stability, with the whole "don't switch horsemen in the middle of an apocalypse" thing going on. Most of them have since learned to think and make decisions, rather than just obey their elders. They have decided to step up and become citizens, not pawns. I can list off more than 10 college friends that fit the description.

[wrando]

63. good for you

it's not people like you, who have been politically active that this is about

bill from ct

[quakerboy]

91. How about the others I mentioned?

Also, posted part B, a more relevant response to your question, below.

[LowerManhattanite]

45. This is what is commonly called...

...“spoiling for a fight”.

Ask a disingenuous, loaded question—then piss on respondents.

Simultaneously laughable AND sad.

[wrando]

65. you must be on of the guilty

What's more important, human lives, or the charisma of a politician?

bill from ct

[LowerManhattanite]

166. No Bill. I'm not one of “the guilty” you so piously stand in judgement of...

in your powdered wig and venom-oozing cyber-gavel.

I was already 40 years old, and politically engaged since I registered to vote in June of 1981.

My kids (then 14 and 10) marched with me down Broadway in NYC to Union Square in an anti-war march in 2003. I myself participated in several without them in that year and the subsequent ones. I also used my influence in the media (working in progressive radio) to get the truth out about what was coming and what did transpire in Iraq.

I wasn't, and AM NOT presently a part of any politician's “army”. If there is any “army” (a word that kind of trivializes what actual soldiers are going through, but hey, YOU picked it.) I was a part of, it was an “army for truth and justice” insofar as vigorously opposing Bush's ego-fueled incursions.

But the point of your OP was never to suss out the whereabouts of Obama's anti-war base in '04, was it?

No. you're having a hissy-fit. You're spoiling for a fight because a campaign hasn't gone the way you wished, and you want to howl at the folks who may have opposed the person you backed.

You appear (based on your description of yourself chronologically) to have been an adult for some time. But your OP and incessant sniping, carping and basically shaking shit sprinkles on the original heaping turd you typed out reeks of a much less mature person's doing.

I actually, honest-to-God pity you, man.

[pnorman]

78. I was groping for the right words to summarize this guy. I'll settle for yours:

"Ask a disingenuous, loaded question—then piss on respondents."

That he can keep this thread going so long with his faux-delphic one-liners, well illustrates what this primary season had done to our DU community. Lets all hope that it recovers in time for November!

pnorman

[libnnc]

94. and he pads his post count too

fucking moron

I hate these people

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libnnc]

196. you aren't fooling anyone here, jackass

take your self righteous bull shit and go fuck yourself raw

[wrando]

205. sound of experience

bill from ct

[Forkboy]

204. Sounds about right. When is your big move?

[madrchsod]

133. around these parts could be trolling for a fight

[DarienComp]

53. Where was I in 2004? Canvassing in Pennsylvania, and contributing money that I couldn't afford.

You've got a real nerve.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yourguide]

71. No

it's about your bitterness that he has brought new people into the party.

shame on you.

[wrando]

188. not at all

more people is good

a dem in the white is good

not stopping the war in 2004 is bad

bill from ct

[DarienComp]

77. My goodness, you're a jerk.

Goodbye.

[swishyfeet]

55. Are you blaming me for people dying in Iraq?

I support Obama, but I certainly didn't convince any politicians to get us out of Iraq.

You're right, I'm a loser. I guess I'm sorry.

[wrando]

76. you have only your conscience to deal with

you're honest

think of the Obama army and the effort it takes to have this kind of movement

not much for the individual, but we could have used it in 2004

many people alive and well today

bill from ct

[yourguide]

84. Or hillary could have voted against it.

spoke out against it. done anything.

now she wants to obliterate Iran...you cool with that?

[wrando]

189. yes she could have

but it sure as hell would be over now if Kerry had motivated the masses with his coolness

bill from ct

[jean627]

116. Kerry had an army in 2004

Gore had an army in 2000.

They were both cheated out of office.

Gore by the USSC and Kerry by Diebold machines and voter suppression.

After all this time and after all the investigations into the 2004 election, there is still not enough provable, concrete evidence that Kerry won but anyone who has studied the election fraud knows that he did. It just can't be proven in a court of law.

Let's just pray that enough machines have been replaced and enough precautions are taken against voter suppression so that they can't steal another one in 2008.


Edit...Sorry, this should be reply to #55. I'm not too good at this stuff.

[Faygo Kid]

67. Bizarre and mean-spirited.

Real nice way to encourage youthful participation.

That attitude was no picnic to be around when I was coming of age in the late '60s, and I'll be damned if at this age I won't respond to it by calling it the mean-spirited crap it so clearly is.

Quit using the deaths of our soldiers in such a cheap way to beat young Obama supporters unfairly over the head.

What the hell is wrong with you.

[wrando]

190. same age you and I

I'm not blaming Obama and it's not me who thinks the lives of our soldiers are cheap.

I'm blaming the people who didn't care about the lives of our soldiers in 2004 and are now joining an army for a politician.

bill from ct

[lligrd]

74. WTF? Preaching To The Choir Wrando

Most DUers at the time were out protesting, writing letters and doing everything in their power to stop the war long before 2004.

[wrando]

191. well to those that did I say bravo!

bill from ct

[lojasmo]

75. You are FUCKING KIDDING ME.

Clinton and Edwards voted to APPROVE the war, and it's somehow the fault of Obama's supporters?

[wrando]

197. how thick are you?

I'm talking about a simple effort to vote in 2004

many people would be whole today if just a small % of BO's army could have made that small effort

Kerry wasn't cool enough

bill from ct

[lojasmo]

224. Oh, we voted alright.

And phone banked, and door knocked. How about you?

[wrando]

228. then why reply?

bill from ct

[lojasmo]

273. Can't...resist...rejoining... douchebaggery. EOM

[Teaser]

79. Wow, that's one hell of an evil OP

.

[libnnc]

80. Hey asshole, ever heard of Ohio?

Most on this board noticed some glaring election irregularities there.

Too bad the one person who could do something about it chose not to.

Fuck you.

[quakerboy]

85. Point B

You ask where were they in 2004. Where were you in 2004? What did you do to bring the people to the table? There have always been people looking to be inspired. But instead of doing so, we brought out Kerry to be our Face. The fit for inspiration was not there. But it was "safe".

That is why we are so intent on bringing Obama all the way through, this time. Its not about "some politician". Its about whether people will trust a political party and its representatives to do good for them. Basiclly, if you start a legitimate charity, you do not use Tom Delay's brother as your face. Even if Tom Delays brother happens to be a decent guy. We don't want those people going back home and sitting it out again, because they don't perceive a difference they can make.

Don't blame them. Blame the democratic party for not inviting them in a meaningful way. And help us avoid the same mistake this time.

[DarienComp]

95. He says he "voted for Kerry".

I contributed money to Kerry. I canvassed door-to-door for Kerry. I phone-banked for Kerry. And yes, I ultimately voted for Kerry.

Seems to me like I did a hell of a lot more than he did.

He's a troll.

[quakerboy]

170. I didnt have any money

And I hate phones. So I stuck to the door to door, myself.

That said, I am not so ready to drop Wrando and others like him so easily. I just think he is coming from the wrong direction. Instead of looking to blame others for last time, lets figure out how to do better this time.

We are so close to it, lets finish strong, and leave the doubts and their doubters without an argument, having to face themselves instead.

[wrando]

198. don't jump to conclusions

bill from ct

[wrando]

192. nonsense

you're saying people need inpiration to get off theie asses and vote, and in the process stop a war, and end the killing?

give me a break

bill from ct

[nomorewhopper]

86. what an idiotic post

blaming young people - obama supporters - for the dead soldiers?

are you out of your fucking mind?

[ima_sinnic]

93. oh, get off our soapbox, you self-righteous putz

geez, you went all the way from 1971 to 2003 without any political engagement at all?
where were you when Reagan and Bush Sr. and a complicit Congress were aiding and abetting death squads in El Salvador and fucking up Nicaragua's revolution?
I not only protested the VN War beginning in 1967, working full-time for War Resisters League until 1969, and also demonstrating in all the biggies, including the DC road blockades in 1971, but also spent a good deal of the 80s writing letters and educating people about goings on in Central America, not to mention a 2-day sit-in in Senator George Mitchell's office in about 1990 and actions against Gulf War I in the early 90s.

Some people think they can go to a couple of demos and then feel all smug and self-righteous and cast aspersions on other people, feel superior and shit. Everybody makes a contribution in his or her own personal way, and it is not your place to judge that or to pat yourself on the back for what a big deal you are compared with everybody else.

sheesh, get over yourself.

[DarienComp]

97. Yeah, good point.

Where was wrando in the 70s, 80s and 90s?

[wrando]

195. your conscience bothering you?

bill from ct

[Forkboy]

229. Your son might ask you the same.

If he wasn't afraid of you yelling at him or sticking your size 13's up his ass.

[ima_sinnic]

261. what the fuck about? did you even read my post?

you're the one with a "conscience problem"--and don't break your arm patting yourself on the back because you went to a couple of demos in your life. WOW, that is SO FUCKING IMPRESSIVE! just "activist" enough so you can brag about it now, but not sooo committed that you got arrested or anything. No, that might compromise your perfect haircut or something, or put you in close quarters with ordinary rabble, or subject you to a slight amount of discomfort and hassle.

In the larger scheme of things, you are exactly a nobody.

[wrando]

264. in those days

I had an awesome haircut, still do. I got arrested once in New Haven, on the green, tear gas, police beating us with their little sticks.
At my school, u of New Haven the entire student union were Black Panthers, I lived off campus.

In grade school we were under our desks almost daily with air raid sirens and the Kenendys and Martin were killed, it was a trip.

and Vietnam
I lost many friends in that war, most died after they came home.

My roommate blew his brains out.

Another did it just a couple years ago.

I'm afraid it's going to be worse when it's all counted up from this war.

I hate these f'n wars

bill from ct

[AllentownJake]

106. This takes the cake

Now Obama and his supporters are responsible for 2004.

Go FUCK YOURSELF

[wrando]

199. jake

your mommy know you talk like that?

bill from ct

[Mz Pip]

117. We did.

We campaigned and worked for the Democratic nominee. We marched, wrote letters, and voted.

I have always thought the lives of our soldiers was important. Unfortunately, more people voted for Bush.

[Forkboy]

120. In a forum where stupidity can reign, this post tops all.

Now I know why lions eat their young.

[Shakespeare]

157. Yup. We now have the wrando test of electoral purity. n/t

[libnnc]

161. asshole troll looking for a fight

padding his post count along the way

been here since '01 and just now decides to opine...

I hate these people

[madrchsod]

123. 70% of the voters in illinois says fuck you bill from ct.....

.

[wrando]

200. and you speak for them?

imbecile

bill from ct

[kwenu]

138. This post=FAIL!

[Goodnevil]

139. I was a Republican until 2003

I was raised in a rich and well-connected Republican family in Texas with a silver spoon stuck up my ass. Then I grew up and had a family...things change when you're not rich anymore. That's the truth. One tends to get a different perspective on the nation's affairs when you are forced to tell your son not to play on the jungle gym because we don't have health insurance and he might get hurt.

I watched the Iraq 2/Afghanistan wars happen and shook my head. I watched that smirking SOB try to eliminate overtime pay to workers. I watched my job effected by outsourcing and I watched health care go down the tubes...so in 2004 I voted for Kerry. I donated to the Democrats and to the Kerry campaign because I realized that I was making a choice between Good and Evil.

I did what I could when I realized what was happening.

What are you talking about wrando???

Here's a question: How come Hillary didn't run for Senator or congresswoman down here in Arkansas? I got your answer right here - I guess we were just all just too poor and working-class white for her to worry about or help anymore.

Wanna know why she didn't run for office down here? Because New York is more strategic for the Presidency! Here, I'll say it: She's a manipulating, cold-hearted opportunistic jack-wad just like her lying-to-a-grand-jury husband. She'll sell us out to the Chinese just like he did and attack Iran for the poll points. Let's elect her right now and let's you and me make a little wager. How's 50 yuan sound?

[Skidmore]

206. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your story

and how much I appreciate you willingness to look beyond the world you grew up in to see the very real hurt in the other America. Yes, it does make a difference when you live in that other America, but many never learn the lessons about it that you have. We need leaders who think like you do, and I think we've found one in Obama.

[wrando]

221. Hillary?

who cares about Hillary she's history

did you read the post

Hillary is not mentioned, and it's really not about Obama himself

he made the right call on the war

and it's not about you if you voted for Kerry

bill from ct

[donheld]

144. Can you guarantee me Hillary's army was any better?

[wrando]

202. the hell with Hillary

you nitwits are the ones claiming to be Obama's army

why didn't some of you vote to stop this war in 2004?

bill from ct

[libnnc]

241. WE ALL DID YOU FUCKING MORON

DID YOU?

[wrando]

244. now now

I think I'll just play my guitar

bill from ct

[libnnc]

246. and that's probably all you did in '04

you're full of shit

[wrando]

248. no not all

I was in a wheel chair, broken legs from a 20' fall landed on asphalt, I work construction

voted absentee

bill from ct

[libnnc]

251. well you didn't do enough. no excuses. blood on your hands. your fault.

how does it feel, asshole?

[wrando]

253. I donated money to dnc

and I wasn't making any

I'm self employed, no work, no money

bill from ct

[libnnc]

254. you didn't do enough.

not good enough.

This war is ALL YOUR FAULT

AND YOU COULD HAVE ENDED IT. ALL BY YOURSELF. AND YOU DIDN'T.

[wrando]

256. your becoming even more irrational

OK it was all my fault

bill from ct

[libnnc]

257. that's the argument that you've made all throughout this thread

you dipshit.

WE ALL VOTED FOR KERRY

OHIO WAS SCREWED UP

HE CHOSE NOT TO CONTEST IT

WE LOST

THE WAR CONTINUED



EXACTLY WHAT IS IT ABOUT THAT SCENARIO THAT BAFFLES YOU?

OR ARE YOU JUST STUPID ON PURPOSE?

[wrando]

262. ok one more time

What baffles me is why did the people who didn't vote for Kerry, find it to be too much trouble, or use the excuse that he didn't inspire, to not vote for him. When if anyone would have bothered to look would have known he would have ended the goddamn war. Obama inspires, that's wonderful, but the horrors of this war should have inspired some of those same goddamn people to take a few minutes and vote. Is that clear?

bill from ct

[libnnc]

263. you could have taken the time to write that in your OP

instead of coming off like a complete asshole.

Throughout this thread you've been a cryptic, coy shit meanwhile painting those you think are Obama supporters with the "young slacker" broad brush.

No wonder you never posted more than a handful of times since 2001.


You don't have anything cogent to say.


Good riddance.

[wrando]

266. If you could only understand

my original post was qualified at the very beginning

it's not just Obama supporters who are to blame, but they're the ones calling themselves an army

bill from ct

[libnnc]

269. Newsweek called them an army

[wrando]

270. well I guess settles that

newsweek is a rag, there isn't a readable paper or magazine out there

bill from ct

[thatsrightimirish]

145. Remember

A lot of Obama supporters couldn't vote in 2004. And the baby boomer generation brought us Reagan and both Bushes

[Willo]

147. Well you would be talking to me for one.

After years of voting, registering voters and working polling sites I had finally had enough of the voter fraud, lies, empty promises, etc.

Since voting or any other form of the people's voice meant nothing I was waiting for the overthrow the government movements. Real boycotts and the like.

It is not that I didn't think our soldiers weren't important, very much to the contrary.
I don't know, I'm all for fighting but pulling a lever for pulling's sake is not my motivation and frankly just pissed me off.
I would imagine that many of the the truly new to politics have felt the same.

So yeah, in 2008, I am ripe for the picking when a politician FINALLY comes along that seems capable of changing this BS. My votes, my attention and my fight are all over it.

One season years ago, I got caught up in day time soap operas. Had to tune in every day. I realized I could follow the story watching once a week. That I hadn't missed a thing.

I wasn't here in 2004 but that's the impression I get of DU. Same expectations, same shit, pull the lever, Bush is president. I don't however, get the impression that the way was paved in 2004 for what's happening in 2008. No battle scars by which I get to cruise over.

Now thankfully to some really good direction and insight provided by Grantcart, phrigndumass, madfloridian and a whole host of posters on DU, my info thus my fight has increased and people I talk to think I'm so politically aware. Hah, I direct them here.

Hopefully, willingness to learn and participate is as important to you as length of stay. Because I'd really hate to think that any traffic I've directed here and the coming wave of newbies from Obama, would be expected to justify to you, a founding member or any other democrat, where there were before.

[wrando]

203. yes you do have blood on your hands

no excuses for not voting to stop this war in 2004

bill from ct

[powergirl]

150. Maybe a lot of them were not able to vote in 2004

b/c there are a lot of younger voters.

[wrando]

207. then it doesn't apply to them

bill from ct

[Willo]

159. Oh great, I take the time to respond thoughtfully and then find out there's an agenda.

I hate when that happens.

Oh well, sounds to me like your son knows how to avoid an argument.

[Forkboy]

167. Wrando would have put his "size 13's" up his son's ass most likely.

Being such a brave man and all.

[MadBadger]

208. He already has one up mine

[LowerManhattanite]

179. Well...you didn't know what you were getting into when you replied...

But we all know now: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Note that almost ALL of the “name removeds” in the thread are fire-breathing, personal-attack flaming from the OP, including the now-disappeared “Size 13's up someone's butt” threat mentioned in the other reply here.

Sad, man. Really, truly sad.

[wrando]

213. tragic

bill from ct

[wrando]

209. my son

knows how waste my money at college and drink himself unconscious, and occasionally beat someone senseless

he needs to grow up

bill from ct

[libnnc]

212. maybe you oughta spend less time picking fights on DU

and more time trying to get to know your son

Your priorities suck

[Shakespeare]

215. Well said. n/t

[wrando]

233. deleted

[libnnc]

235. who the hell are YOU?

Abbie Hoffman?

Please.

[wrando]

234. you're a dirty little girl

who the hell do you think you are?

Dr Phillis

bill from ct

[Willo]

239. Yeah, I wonder why he does that

The only blood I'd have on my hands is from kicking your ass on behalf of your son
and your f**ked up mentality.

What do they call those undershirts?
Oh yeah, wifebeaters. Funny, the things that come to mind.

Final post and visit for me.

[wrando]

247. kick my ass on behalf of my son

my son is about 6ft 230, no fat, a monster

but he doesn't f with his old man

I been working construction my entire life, self employed, you don't do it, you don't get paid

regular people just can't do what I do

bill from ct

[CreekDog]

169. some of them weren't 18 yet

and some of them were brought into politics by Obama.

my first vote was in 1992, in 1988 when I wasn't old enough to vote, I bought into the Bush 41 and Reagan arguments.

I hope you don't hold it against me that I wasn't there for you in 1988.

Doofus.

[anonymous171]

176. Remember Howard Dean?

[wrando]

210. yea? your point?

bill from ct

[Blarch]

182. how many soldiers would be alive...

if people like hillary had never authorized it in the first place ?

[wrando]

211. it would have taken more than her vote

W started this war and Kerry would have stopped it

bill from ct

[elizm]

184. You should see someone about your anger/control issue. nt

[wrando]

214. it comes and goes

not a problem

bill from ct

[LowerManhattanite]

218. Didn't Charlie Manson say that...

...when they asked him about his anger issues after they got him for the Tate-LoBianco massacre?

[wrando]

222. I'm not sure

bill from ct

[olkaz]

201. You should try posting something positive about Obama.

It's not hard, really.

[wrando]

216. Obama is one cool guy

he's my hero

all of my hero's are politicians

how's that?

this isn't about Obama

bill from ct

[rucky]

230. Yeah, what a bunch of assholes.

They should just crawl back into the holes they came from.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

232. "HEY YOU KIDS! Get offa my (Democratic) lawn!"

[wrando]

236. that Miles?

bill from ct

[WritingIsMyReligion]

237. Like hell it is.

[wrando]

249. with the horn?

who then?

bill from ct

[WritingIsMyReligion]

258. Miles in the sig.

Trane in the avatar.

Sorry for any confusion.

[wrando]

260. it's ok

both geniuses

bill from ct

[boppers]

238. A lot of us were thrown under the IWR bus.

We campaigned hard for Dean, when we wound up with Kerry, momentum just fizzled.

[wrando]

250. but the war raged on

bill from ct

[dailykoff]

240. Where were you?

Parked behind the telly gobbling down CNN baloney? Good grief.

[wrando]

252. 248

bill from ct

[cemaphonic]

265. voting for Kerry

under-35 was the only age demographic to majority vote for Kerry. And like Clinton, he was pretty compromised on the war issue, even though I believe he would have ended it by now.

Generational politics is one of the stupider varieties of identity politics, but if you really want to toss around blame for 2004, blame the Boomers and GGs for (wait for it) *voted for Bush.*

[wrando]

267. no I don't think so

If Obama's young army wasn't so self absorbed or waiting for inspiration we could have won in 2004.

Kerry was not compromised on the war.

bill from ct

[The Doctor.]

271. You answered your own remarkably doltish question.

If they're "new to politics", then likely they didn't understand the reasons or consequences for the war and the role they might play in confronting it back in 2004.

That's four years difference William. There are people who are into politics now that couldn't name onecabinet official four years ago. We might be talking about fifteen year-olds in 2003/2004 who were more interested in filtering through their hormones than worrying about international diplomacy.

There are many more who were likely not exposed to all of the information that we were several years ago, and now realize how serious and illegal the war really is.


Your question shows a profound ignorance of simple logic; The longer an issue is active, the more people will become aware of it. Therefore, it logically follows that four years ago, fewer people understood and took an active interest in getting Kerry elected than are now interested in and pursuing solutions.

That is a testament to the work of the true media and people like Duers getting out there and informing people.

We've done a good job of informing people, so now there are more than there were before.



That wasn't a very bright question William.

[wrando]

277. don't play stupid with me

and I know you're not

look the post is clear don't give me ages and excuses

there's no denying that Obama has brought many new people into the political arena

Of those people a huge number were of voting age in 2004. What is more important, the charisma of a politician or human life and suffering?

Apparently charisma has motivated many, where the horrors of this war did not. It's that simple, priorities, and the culture.

I'm talking about all the people, Obama supporters included, but not exclusively that were apathetic in 2004 when we could have ended this war.

The reason I'm singling out Obama supporters here is that they are now calling themselves an army.

bill from ct

[Chulanowa]

275. I was throwing money at and canvassing for Dean

And then I did the same for Kerry when he got the Nomination. I've been breaking my feet since 2001 trying to bring our soldiers back from overseas mistakes.

Now here's a question for you, "bill from ct"

How fucking dare you? How fucking dare you point at the people supporting Obama today, and try to pin the blame for dead Americans on them? Where were you in 2004? Autofellating during Boosh's state of the union addresses?

[bowens43]

276. Your post is nonsense.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

278. Where was the Clintons' famous 'fighting spirit'?

Oh wait...neither of their political fortunes were on the line at that time...

[proud patriot]

280. locking

flamebait