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Face it, Democrats: Barack Obama's got a growing problem with whites

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 12:59 PM
Original message
Face it, Democrats: Barack Obama's got a growing problem with whites
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2008/05/11/2008-05-...

Hillary Clinton, down to her last straw, is making the case that she is the better candidate to run against the Republicans because, unlike Barack Obama, she can win white Democrats.

She is right. But because she is daring to touch the hot button of racial politics, she is being told to shut up or risk being charged with exploiting racial tensions for political advantage.

The facts are stubborn, however. Since his phenomenal win with 33% of the white vote in nearly all-white Iowa, Obama has been unable to get a firm grip on white Democrats. He has won a majority of these voters in only six states, the biggest of which is his home state of Illinois. Clinton has defeated Obama among white voters in key states such as California, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania and North Carolina. Exit polls show Clinton winning an overwhelming average of 57% of white Democrats since the February Super Tuesday elections.


If you think none of this is a real issue for Democrats as they try to win the White House, then listen to Republican guru Karl Rove. Citing Obama's inability to get more than 30% of Catholics or working-class white voters in a big state such as Pennsylvania, Rove recently wrote: "Defections like this elect Republicans."

And now we are heading into a general election with an even larger group of white voters in play, key independents and suburbanites in "toss-up" districts that swing between Republicans and Democrats.


So it is critical for the Democrats to focus on what it means to nominate this particular black candidate. It is critical for them to honestly assess his strengths and weaknesses, even when those are uncomfortably intertwined with his race.

In particular, being silent on race is not going to erase Obama's ties to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and the preacher's fireballs of inflammatory rhetoric.

Nearly half of the voters in North Carolina and Indiana said Wright was an important issue for them. Then there is an April poll by The Associated Press that found "about 8% of whites would be uncomfortable voting for a black for President." According to a May Newsweek poll, 12% of voters said they thought most Americans would "have reservations about voting for a black candidate that they are not willing to express"; 41% said they thought some Americans would have such reservations.

To some, any reference to such numbers is desperate at best - and race-baiting at worst.


Listen, I'm no fan of Karl Rove. But the point I bolded is the honest truth. You can try to spin it as Republican spin - but it isn't. Am I saying that Obama cannot court the white working class and Catholic vote? Of course not. But has he shown any ability to so far? No. To discount Hillary's points that she is better at courting the white working class vote as race baiting is not productive. There are going to be some real problems Obama is going to face if he is the nominee, and they need to be addressed. It is possible for Obama to get these voters into his coalition, but it will take a finely honed and disciplined message in the GE campaign and a vice presidential choice that helps appeals to these voters to do so.

Let's keep this civil please. Race-baiting accusations against me or others who bring this up do nothing but ignite the flames. Can we have a legitimate discussion about race in this campaign? What do you think Obama needs to do to win these votes? Calling these voters "low-information voters" and discounting their votes as not important will give the Republicans the most important swing states we need to carry - and thus, the election.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bullshit!
Not with this white voter.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. We're playing the percentages here.
Hillary has overwhelming won the white working class vote.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. Catch 22
at this point. If the superdelegates overturn the election delegate results they'll vote GOP or stay at home. No democrat has ever won without large AA turnout. Take away the nomination and Hillary will still win the majority of AA however she won't win the large majority and the turnout won't be good.

In most primaries you go to your base supporters than you move to the center for the GE. Right now John McCain is having to go to the right while Obama can move to the center.

Unless your implying that there is blatant racism and that these voters won't vote on issues.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. I'm not interested in your doomsday scenarios.
I am interested in finding out how Obama is going to improve among these voters - or I would like to nominate a candidate who has done very well among these voters.

How will Obama improve among these voters? If he doesn't, they deflect to the Republicans, and we lose elections.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:12 PM
Original message
No
You have been interested in tearing down Obama since you defected.

McCain is moving to the right because his base still isn't convinved on him. Obama is moving to the Center that's how he attracts these voters.
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
154. And that is the whole problem
with your arguement. They will NOT defect to Republicans, just because they prefer Hillary at this point. And even if that were true, what would you have the Superdelegates do? Make a decision that would declare to the world that Democrats don't believe in democracy? That would destroy the party forever? What is the point of your post? If there is any validity to your arguement at all, the logical discussion is, how does Obama improve his appeal to these voters, not whether the Democrats shold commit harakiri.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
157. Why don't you ask him?
I mean, how are we, on an internet forum, supposed to answer your rather obtuse question?
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
60. and?
So they only get to vote for a Dem once?

Those whites for Hillary voters now will stay home or vote for McCain?

If you are losing that logic then explain to me how Hillary wins with single digit black support?

Oh wait, blacks will vote for Hillary but whites wont vote for Obama because, well, magic I guess.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Black voters aren't important
because they always support us is the message.

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Blacks have voted ovewhelming Demoratic for decades.
White catholics and white working class voters - not so much. Which is why we've lost the last 2 elections.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Yep
Being loyal to the party is now to be punished.

I got an idea if your demographic group vote for the democratic candidate in the last 10 elections your vote is now on you get 3/5 a vote.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #64
95. lol
clearly you aren't black, and clearly you havent paid attention.

You think that if Blacks come out in record numbers in Cleveland let's say in 2004 instead of just regular numbers, Kerry doesn't maybe pull it out?

How about in Florida in 2000, you dont think a thousand more black voters could have been found to turn that state to Gore?

You are delusional if you think Hillary will win a majority of the white vote. She wont.

Neither will Obama of course, which is what makes getting all of the other groups you know the BLACK working class and the HISPANIC working class and independents out for us all the more important.

But you keep operating under the delusion that somehow Hillary will not be labeled as liberal, or that she's been "vetted", or that she will magically do what no one has done in 32 years.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Nope - there weren't enough votes in Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) to pull it out for Kerry.
Even with a 10% increase in turnout in Cleveland, he still wouldn't have won Ohio.

He got beaten around in the rest of the state - which is majority white - and that is why he lost Ohio.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #100
150. any blacks
elsewhere in Ohio?

Like I said, you are delusional if you think the white vote will be any better for Hillary than Kerry or Gore or even Obama.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:40 PM
Original message
Rev Hagee will secure the Catholic vote for Obama.
Something about your religion being called "'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system' just ticks people off. And hey, since Obama's support is viewed as a cult by some, they will be able to relate.

The issue Catholics have with Democrats is the abortion issue. If they continue to vote anti-abortion, I'm not sure that is going to help Hillary. I doubt the Catholics will vote in lockstep for the anti-abortion candidate who is embracing the likes of Rev Hagee, however, no matter who he is running against.

And it is a bit presumptuous to assume that blacks will vote overwhelmingly for the Clintons at this point as they have in the past.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Original message
I don't WANT the votes of white working class people who would never vote for a black man.
On one hand, I suspect their numbers are smaller than you think...

But on the other hand, some diehard HRC supporters have stated they don't care if McCain wins, since Hillary probably won't be going up against him. Well *I* don't care if McCain wins if we have to pander to bigots to not lose.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
147. And when she drops out, Obama will get a lot of those votes.
To date, Obama has gotten 2 times as many votes as McCain in this primary season so I'm not too worried about racist voters. They were going to vote for McCain anyway.

And don't forget that Hillary is pulling in a lot of white working class vote due to Limbaugh's Operation Chaos and there isn't too much doubt about that at this point. So Hillary is not going to overwhelmingly win the white working class in the GE.

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PatGund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. Nor with this white voter.
Actually let me expand that to read "not with this working class, gun-owning, latte-hating white voter"
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:22 PM
Original message
For the last year we've been hearing about little other than the inherent racism of americans.
Yet, when your opponents acquiesce to that world view, suddenly it's not real.

If Obama supporters want to win, they need to expect that white people (especially the working class) will vote for him. This is a 180 change in paradigm, and causes some obvious discomfort among his more urbane supporters.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
107. Don't you understand that when Hillary says "Whites won't vote for him..."
...it influences the media coverage of race in this contest, which in turn affects white voters who are on the fence? They accept it as fact and say "Well, if most whites won't vote for Obama--and I'M white--there really MUST be something scary and un-American about him...better give those emails in my inbox another look..."

Hillary knows this. Despite homogeneous states all over the Western US giving Obama the nod in primaries AND in polls, she's claiming this because she knows the effect it'll have on the election coverage, then on the voters. Make no mistake, it's underhanded as hell.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
130. They understand the code just fine, and support it. Racism-by-proxy is the FoTM.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #107
134. And don't you understand that when half of democrats...
... believe the other half to be simply pig-ignorant racists that also influences the media coverage?

a) we on the west coast don't understand how the rest of the country behaves. I certainly don't.
b) It would have been better for the Obama campaign for his supporters to have followed his lead.

This is a conventional wisdom that has been planted largely by Obama's supporters - make no mistake, it's dumb as hell.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. KKKarl sez. And how would he benefit by promoting this meme? Please. nt
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
81. Diverts attention from Republican Failures
Keep Dems talking race instead of major disasters and crimes of Bush-Cheney-McCainy. Also undercuts image of Dems as Big-Tent Party -- "look at them worrying about 'hard working' whites."
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. Thank you. Exactly. nt
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. All of these "facts" were voted on State by State.
And there is a winner.


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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. here;
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. DAMN! When is telling the truth racist? HRC is only telling the
truth and what the voting patterns have been for several months now. But please obama folks just because someone speaks truisms, do not label us racist.You know it's the truth but the only way you can explain it, is not too, and then holla, bigot, racist.....
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. "Hardworking White Voters"
EOM
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. talking about demographics is not race- baiting. get a grip
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. Really?
Saying that the black guy can't win because my supporters are racist is a threat.

I think SNL nailed your candidate to a Tee last night. I wonder if we have another debate if she can quote that?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. ha ha. Clinging to your claim of race-baiting is sick.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. Clinging
to the SS Hillary while she does it is even sicker.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:20 PM
Original message
cling away with your race-baiting meme is all you got.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
98. I used to like an respect her
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:26 PM by Jake3463
Now I'm looking forward to donating to her primary challenger in the 2012 senate race.

I'm hoping another non-hardworking minority kicks her ass.
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:19 PM
Original message
and that's different than white blue collar workers in what way?
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Distorting the truth is different than telling the truth
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, I have a growing problem with women -- castration didn't help either.
Only somebody having an objective eye on all three candidates would be qualified to say what you have; your avatar is rather suggestive and all you will get ARE flames in return.

If Obama loses the G.E. it will be due to him not convincing the public to vote for him. Obama, Clinton, and McCain all have issues that can be spun or misused.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Over and over and OVER I ask you...
...what about all the white working class people of Iowa, Nebraska, Alaska, Kansas, Idaho, Wisconsin, Missouri, Wyoming, Minnesota, Vermont, etc. WHY DO YOU KEEP LEAVING THEM OUT OF THIS ARGUMENT?

And don't get me started about "buyers remorse." New Jersey has flipped to Obama, and they've got no shortage of white working class and Catholics.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Wisconsin and Vermont are the only two non-caucus states there.
There aren't any caucuses in the general election.

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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Original message
Since when is Missouri a Caucus?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
52. He only won 37% of the white vote in Missouri.
He won due to better than expected turnout in the cities of St Louis and Kansas City.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
76. Well then it's a goddamn good thing that urbanites can't vote in the general. n/t
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #76
124. Thank you. And blue states are blue BECAUSE of those urban areas.
Areas that Obama WON even in the states he lost to Clinton. It's so ridiculous this assumption of "OMGZ!1! Obama can't win big blue states!!" because Clinton won due to her strong performance in the red areas of them. Anyone can look at a 2004 electoral map and see that Kerry LOST (badly) in those vast red expanses of PA, NY, and CA, precisely where Clinton won them in the primary. But those states always go blue in the General because of the BIG CITIES.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Original message
So what? He POLLED high among voters in those states too.
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM by Bicoastal
Are you trying to tell me that caucuses are unfair to white people? In states with VERY low minority populations?

Grow up.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. So much for my request for an intelligent discussion about race in this campaign.
Aren't you pleasant like usual?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. maybe you should stop posting horseshit...
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
46.  name=calling another DU member is against DU rules and school-yard bully tactic.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. Obama got 40 percent of Catholic voters in Indiana
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Which means he needs 10%.
Still, 40% is a lot considering the "amusing" claims of the OP...
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Its just a primary too, not the GE
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. He won 37% of the white catholic vote.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Edit, I didnt realize the media now only talks about White Catholics
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM by hnmnf
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. Go look at MSNBC's exit polls among White Catholics. n/t
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. And in NC, Obama won 41% of White Catholics
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
12. and NJSec takes the lead in Racially driven threads
Congratulations NJS!
:sarcasm:
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Why can't we have an intelligent, adult discussion about race in the campaign?
Why do I, or anybody who brings this up, have to always be accused of race baiting?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ohio super delegate says things are changing!
Regan said he decided to support Obama three or four months ago, about the same time the national leadership of the SEIU endorsed Obama.

Supporting Obama runs counter to most Ohio Democrats' wishes. They voted for Clinton by a 10 percent margin during Ohio's March primary. Regan said the race has changed since then and that the excitement over Obama is growing.

"We're at a very important potential turning point in American politics," Regan said, referring to Obama as a "breath of fresh air."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
14. He has my Catholic white 80 yr old mom. He has my athiest white brother.
He has me, my husband, son, mother in law, a couple Aunts and multiple cousins. All white.
He has the support of the vast majority of my friends.

Somehow I think this is just Hillarys latest meme - a pathetic Hail Mary pass to try to convince people that most Americans are racist sheet wearers who would never support a black man as President.

:eyes:


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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. We are playing the percentages here.
Of course he has some votes from these demographics, but he has overwhelming struggled with them.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #40
75. He hasn't struggled with anything. You obviously are, but he has not.
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peacebird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
80. oh puhleeze... you are trying to instill on Obama an aura of unelectability b/c he is not white
Every time anyone complained about HerRoyalHighness HRC it was decried as being misogynisitc. Yet SHE comes out with "hard working Americans, WHITE AMERICANS" and follows it with this current meme 'Obama has problems attracting white voters".... Racist!

And pretty funny - because when I think of KKK and those who fought to keep "colored folk in their place" - it was usually Repubs leading the pack.

Democrats are far more accepting of all people than Republicans. Except HRC obviously
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #80
156. Correction: Most of those folks in your stereotyping...
...would have been hardcore Southern Democrats back then.

Look at the political history of Klan territory in the 20th Century.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
129. And yet still he has more votes . . .
He has more votes (repeat).

There are more white people than black people who have voted.

He has more votes.

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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #129
148. bingo!!
he's still winning, even with all this b.s.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Do you feel the problems he has with "whites" are unsurmountable? I don't, I think he just has to...
...try and relate and he's in like flin
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
69. No, I do not think they are insurmountable.
As I said in the original thread, with a finely honed message and a VP choice that helps with these type of voters, he could possibly improve among these demographics.

Which is why I asked in the original post how he was going to appeal to these voters - and of course I have been accused of race baiting for doing so.
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. With Jim Webb I hope
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. You can say it 'till you're blue in the face,
but you still wont make it true. The majority of Democrats are NOT racist. If they were, Hillary would have won already.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No, that just means we're all sexist.
:silly:

(sadly, it's not of whom we support; it's what the trollish bots accuse the opposite side of being.)
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Damn. You're right.
I forgot about that. :banghead: :hi:
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. he'll be fine w/o the percentage points of dems who don't want him...
the numbers are still in his favor because of the growing number of democrats.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
73. False. He needs these voters or he will lose the general election.
You can't just write off a significant voting bloc and expect to win an election.
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WA98296 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. More race baiting by HRC surrogates?
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
109. This is not race baiting. I was looking for an intelligent discussion about race.
Too bad the O-bots didn't comply.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
152. Talk to Harry Reid also. He said Hillary's comments were NOT race baiting. Grow up
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. Please, stop damaging our party with these distortions
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
26. When was the last time a Democrat won the white vote?
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM by bluestateguy
1964. We have elected two presidents since then, three times, without the white vote, including your candidate's husband.

Amid all of the fuss over working class whites, what is often ignored is Obama's appeal among affluent, upper middle class whites. He will poll better with these folks than Clinton, Gore or Kerry ever did. He will turn out more black voters and young voters than any candidate in history.

He will not write off the working class white vote, but I don't think it is necessary for him to win a majority of these folks.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. Couldnt agree with you more
Mcsames base is fractured and he wil be easily painted as someone you can no longer trust. They will vote for him with plugs on thier noses if they vote for him at all. It will be unfortunate if Obama doesnt attract hillary's "white" base, but I dont think it will save Mcsame from the Tsunami about to be released on him.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
83. The Democrats aren't going to win the white vote.
But they need to win at least 44% of the white vote to win the general election. Kerry couldn't do it and neither could Gore.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
118. show me those polls
Show me where he polls better than Clinton Gore or Kerry. Not "he will poll better" -- surely you wouldn't cite future polls as evidence?
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Obama can't grow whites? 0.o
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks for your concern, but not all white working class are racist.
Mighty big brush you Hillary supporters got there. It's racist to paint us that way, and classist too.

The really racist ones don't vote for Dems in the general. But they are all over that "Operation Chaos" shit.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
88. So if white working class voters don't vote for Obama, they are racist?
Maybe it's because Obama has done a terrible job appealing to these voters?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thanks for the post
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
102. No problem. I guess we won't be having an intelligent discussion about race though.
It's a shame. You can't discuss anything about racial demographics in the general election without being accused of race-baiting.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
145. Harry Reid was on Geoge S today. He said Hillary's words were not race-baiting. I was proud of him.
(paraphasing).
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
35. The facts are he's had blowouts in many primarily white states...
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM by yourguide
The states he has taken by 20% or more:

Idaho (+63 Obama)
Obama: 80%, HRC: 17%

Hawaii (+52 Obama)
Obama: 76%, HRC: 24%

DC (+51 Obama)
Obama: 74%, HRC: 24%

Alaska (+49 Obama)
Obama: 74%, HRC: 25%

Kansas (+48 Obama)
Obama: 74%, HRC: 26%

Washinton (+37 Obama)
Obama: 68%, HRC: 31%

Georgia (+35 Obama)
Obama: 66%, HRC: 31%

Colorado (+35 Obama)
Obama: 67%, HRC: 32%

Minnesota (+34 Obama)
Obama: 66%, HRC: 32%

Illinois (+32 Obama)
Obama: 65%, HRC: 33%

Virginia (+29 Obama)
Obama: 64%, HRC: 35%

South Carolina (+28 Obama)
Obama: 55%, HRC: 27%, Edwards: 18%

North Dakota (+24 Obama)
Obama: 61%, HRC: 37%

Mississippi (+24 Obama)
Obama: 61%, HRC: 37%

Wyoming (+23 Obama)
Obama: 61%, HRC: 38%

Maryland (+23 Obama)
Obama: 60%, HRC: 37%

Louisiana (+21 Obama)
Obama: 57%, HRC: 36%

Vermont (+20 Obama)
Obama: 59%, HRC: 39%


The states that HRC has won by 20% or more?

Arkansas (+43 HRC)
HRC: 70%, Obama: 27%

Oklahoma (+24 HRC)
HRC: 55%, Obama: 31%, Edwards 10%
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
89. All caucus states and states with overwhelming black populations. n/t
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #89
101. Oh I get it. So THOSE white states dont count now...
GET A GRIP! SHE HAS LOST! IT'S OVER!
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. Those states results are not indicative of what will happen in the GE. n/t
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #105
114. Neither is Hillary winning Flordia and NY
The argument works both ways. You made an argument, a race baiting argument, about whites.

I just provided a list of states where not only did he win the white vote but crushed her.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #114
117. What the heck does Florida and New York have to do with anything?
Hillary will win New York - it is her home state!

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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #117
149. Pardon me, first off it's not her HOME state.
Her HOME state is Arkansas.

Second, I meant to say California & NY. Your argument stating those outcomes are not indicators as to what will happen in the GE. I pose the same argument to you. Just because HRC won California and NY it doesnt mean those two states wont vote for Obama.

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:49 PM
Original message
High turnout primaries are a lot different than low turnout caucuses. n/t
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:42 PM
Original message
Are you truly this ignorant?
Please go do some research on the minority population in the USofA and then maybe, just maybe, you will realize that without the substantial support of whites Obama would not be ahead as he is now.

Stop buying into the lies as you did, as you have. Stop promoting the racist positions of those who want to divide so they can conquer. So they can divide and harm, not unite and bring about the much needed change our nation needs and her citizens deserve.

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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. you are right. Obama should concede to racist whites and quit..
:mad: = :puke:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. Face it: You are full of shit
Explain this:



This ruse that whites aren't going for Obama is a last attempt to be racist and play to racist suspicions. Your and the Clinton campaign's "assessment" is not factual. It's clearly bullshit... and it is clearly another scab to add to the FAILED campaign.

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
92. I've debunked your argument before - go look in your previous thread.
I'm not wasting my time again.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
42. Oh Noes, we're losing the ignorant, bigoted, whites! Ditch the negro before it's too late!
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:16 PM by ResetButton
God I hate this fucking shit.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
43. Quoting Rove now?
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU??

She cannot win this.
If she steals it all those 'obamabots' recruited by his message of something other than 'rove as usual' will just vanish.

Leaving you and her with McCain as President. Good luck with that.

And yet you spend your days filling this board with this kind of shit instead of trying to get rid of the Republicant's


Pathetic is the word that comes to mind.

:hurts:
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
108. Is Rove wrong?
If these voters deflect, will we win the election?
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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
133. Wow - defending Rove's logic.
How low will you go.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #133
139. Is Rove wrong?
If these voters deflect, will we win the election?
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
44. And thank goodness you're talking about it again and again
That'll help bring more and more "hard working" whites into the fold. Did you ever think that Herr Karl wants lots of Dems to discuss their concern about losing the "hard working white" votes so that he can under-cut the Democratic big-tent image ?
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marcus3xw Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
45. i'm black and the MAJORITY of obama's black support is race based
personally i see nothing wrong with hillary quoting stats to make her case

it is funny how the media won't play hillary's entire statement that included independents

did david axelrod make a similar statement about white working voters were going to vote republican or something sometime around the pennsylvania primary?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
56. They always play the entire statement.
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marcus3xw Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
79. 3 SHOWS DID NOT THIS MORNING
MEET THE PRESS, CHRIS WALLACE AND GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS (TYPO)

all 3 shows did show and play the ENTIRE QUOTE and question

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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
48. What!? No reference to the "Democrat Party" this time NJS
or would that be too Repub latte lite?
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
53. The thing is, Hillary isn't going to be the Democratic nominee.
When working-class white Catholic Democrats are to choose between the other Democrat and John McCain, they'll choose the other Democrat. Well, real Democrats will, anyway. Hillary's success with this group is just irrelevant, extraneous noise at this point, and it will mean even less come November unless she's on the ticket.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
96. So these working class Catholics are going to vote Democratic just for the hell of it?
No, they are not.

Obama is going to have to do a better job appealing to them then he has - or else the Republicans will win the election. He is going to have to give these voters reasons to vote for him.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
54. so let me get this straight
33% in Iowa is "phenomenal" but winning an average of 43% of whites since Super Tuesday means he is losing white voters?

Huh, who knew going from 33 to 43 equals losing.

Something is stubborn, but dont think its the facts.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
110. There were 7+ candidates in Iowa.
Only 2 from Super Tuesday on.
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qazplm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #110
153. and?
What difference does that make?

His numbers increased did they not?

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. They increased because more candidates left the race. n/t
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
55. Secularist, let's unite.
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
57. McCain got 0% of the white working class vote in the democratic primary
so I guess Obama's doing just fine
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
58. It's your candidate that's throwing fuel on this fire. She's who makes it a "growing problem"
What a load of desperate bullshit.

"Keep it civil" my rear end. You post garbage like this and expect "civility?" Tell your candidate to get out, and quit the race baiting. And while we're at it, you can take your race baiting elsewhere; this is DU. That's as civil as I care to get about this post.

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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
112. Posting facts is race-baiting?
Fact: Obama has had an overwhelming problem with white working class voters in the Democratic primary.

Question: What can he do to improve his standing among these voters for the general election?
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
59. I disafgree. I know WAY too many people is SEVERAL STATES,
including Pa. who were really torn & undecided on which candidate to vote for, but will vote for whoever the Dem in in Nov. You will ALWAYS have some people who have issues with whoever the candidate is. Some didn't vote for Kerry because they thought he was a snob. Some would NEVER vote for a woman. Some would NEVER vote for a black. Hell, some Pubs claim they won't vote for McCain because they view him as a traitor.

It's foolish for anyone but the candidates themselves to worry about this kind of stuff. THEY'RE the only ones who can do anything to change them.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
62. Take your racist bullshit and pound it up your.......
you hillbots really are pathetic.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
65. Do the numbers matter to you?
African Americans comprise the United States' largest racial minority, accounting for 12.1 percent of the total population in 2000. This population is concentrated largely in the southern states and urban areas.

I think if you do the math you will see that even if Obama were to get all the votes of all the minorities in all the states he could not be ahead as he is without the votes of whites and a substantial number of whites.

As a white female, I find your racist OPs destructive and misleading. They lead me to question your true sense of democracy over your need to back a candidate.

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Goodnevil Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
66. If Obama loses because of race
then may the gods forsake us all. IF he loses because he is black then there is no America left to fight for and no America left to care about.

If there are enough racists in this country to throw an election to a politician like John McCain and a party like the Republicans, then the entire concept of "American" democracy is a moot point. Americans will have officially crossed a line into self-destructive behavior that far exceeds those of the past and we will deserve our downfall.

I would encourage those Hillary supporters crass enough to post this sort of drivel to remember why we are democrats and why we have chosen Obama as a party. If you honestly believe that racial lines are acceptable as voting markers then you repudiate everything Dr. King, Jesse Jackson and every other civil rights leader has fought for over the past 200 years.

Political science be damned. I'd rather lose with a black candidate than win with a racist one.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #66
127. If he loses, period, to many it will be ONLY because of race
It won't be from being slippery and being on every side of issues. It won't be from having numerous friends and associates who can be used to besmirch his patriotism. It won't be from soft support from the left due to his corporatism. It won't be from any slip-ups he's prone to. It'll be racism, plain and simple.

There are far too many people out there who'd rather "prove" how much racism there is than win the election. That's just plain destructive.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
67. Why? Is getting blacker?
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
70. LET. IT. SINK.
Since it's at the top right now I can post that and get away with it.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
72. Look, all I'm saying is that the darkies are bad.
I mean, that's what teh repubes will uze, riit? I'm just makin' a point.

Twit.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
77. Hillary has a problem with college educated, youth under 35 and blacks
Hillary has a group that do not support Obama and the reverse is true as well. We clearly need to come together as well as republicans (who know the most important thing to do is defeat democrats)have in the past - otherwise the republicans are smarter and more practical and deserve to win.

Dems will only lose if they decide to defeat themselves.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
93. OMG--you are a racist for using that language!!
Edited on Sun May-11-08 01:26 PM by rodeodance

sarcasm alert on.



just pointing out the absurdity of being called a racist for using
demographic pollster language.
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LonePirate Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
82. I guess it's easier to claim race trumps ideology
Then it is to believe in the ideals of the man who is the party's nominee this year. There is no way all of these white voters who support Hillary will not vote for Obama and will instead vote for McSame or sit out the election. We all know most of these voters will support Obama in November and sour grapes will not change anything.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
84. Nonsense. Do you really think that all those voters are going to vote Republican?
No doubt some will. Some were going to vote Republican, no matter who the Democrats nominated. Some Catholics will vote against any pro-choice candidate.

Some die-hard Hillary supporters will vote for McCain. Most probably won't.

Some are, indeed, racists and will vote against Obama because of race.

But, most won't vote for McCain.

In this election, race is an issue, as well it should be. One that is usually swept under the rug as too hot an issue.

For one, I'm glad to see it emerging as an issue. It's a festering, unhealed, and usually untreated wound on the fabric of society.

Hillary, and her supporters, are using race-baiting as a tried and true method of gaining votes among the lowest common denominator of the citizenry by pandering to their fears and bigotry. As expected, some are responding to the threat of losing their place in the unspoken pecking order of society that says this job, this education, this neighborhood, is for Whites Only.

Fortunately, as is being proven by Obama, the old tried and true method isn't selling as well as it has in the past.








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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #84
115. "Nonsense. Do you really think that all those voters are going to vote Republican?"
It's a possibility.

What is Obama going to do in the general election to appeal to these voters. Contrary to popular belief, this voting demographic is not racist. Obama's message hasn't appealed to them in the primaries.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #115
137. McCain's has?
If they're not racists and agree with Hillary's centrist politics, which are a match with Obama's, would they vote for McCain?
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
85. Juan Williams of Fox writing in . . .
. . . The Daily News - owned by Mort Zuckerman. Ugh.

Barack will campaign everywhere for votes - that's what a fifty state strategy is. I think he knows who he needs to court to win.

Funny how the white voters in Idaho, Wyoming, Minnesota and several other states with few black voters supported Barack overwhelmingly.

You will be surprised how many white votes he gets in the fall.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
86. In other words- Vote for Hillary, the WHITE candidate!
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
116. In other words, that's not what I said. n/t
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #116
144. It's what you meant, or do you have another explanation why Hillary appeals to WHITE voters?
and Obama doesn't?????

.
.

.

.
.

.

.

I'm waiting....
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #144
158. you are racist for using that language!!


sarcasm.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
87. You must be dizzy posting race-baiting cheese & in the same breath ask that we keep it civil.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #87
122. How exactly am I race baiting?
:crazy: :crazy:

Having a discussion about how Obama has not won the white working class vote is race baiting? Even though the assertion is backed by facts?

:crazy: :crazy:
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
90. In some cases where Senator Obama did not win a majority
the race was still a 3 or more way race.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
94. Wrong. A Democratic primary is NOT a general election
If you want to divide on race, religion, or gender, IT DOESN'T work that way. As much as the media would like you to believe

A year ago the whole country, including the Clinton camp thought that she was the nominee, all wrapped up

It didn't happen that way for a lot of reasons, the biggest is probably the IWR vote, but a lot also had to do with the way she ran her campaign

In fact, I will argue that the way the Clinton's have run their campaign only demonstrate why she isn't the best candidate

There was no way she should have lost this nomination. The Clinton name, the money, and the machinery was all behind her, and still it isn't happening

There is only one person to blame for what has happened, and that is Senator Clinton




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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
97. My answer
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. He was for Obama
than defected over Rev. Wright. He's just mad the rest of the country didn't fall for the media's bullshit like he did.

I don't think he's a racist. I think he's bitter that he was on the right side of things and now is having trouble admitting it to himself.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #103
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #103
119. He didnt defect over Rev. Wrigh. He defected over "electability" issues
So most of his criticism have nothing to do with electability.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #119
135. But now that Obama has clinched it, what productive purpose do his criticisms serve now?
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. They dont think he has clinched it, so I really dont have an issue
Until Obama, officially clinches it, they have every right to criticize.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #99
140. I think Obama would be appalled by the sewer language you used in your text.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
104. why dont we be fools and just keep on feeding it. or i know, we can not feed
have a higher expectation, allow it to be met and actually do some healing.

i dont believe you

there were be those that dont vote for him cause he is black. there will be those that dont vote hillary cause she is female. they are likely not gonna vote dem anyway cause it is liberal.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
106. He's probably using the wrong detergent.
Seriously, what a load of crap. (Get it? "load"?)

I'm white, I support Obama.

The "problem" exists only in the minds of folks desperately spinning last-ditch rationales for continuing Hillary's failed campaign.
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shomino Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
111. By "Whites" do you mean Hillary Clinton and her supporters? - n/t
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
120. Do you really think the largest percentage of white dems will vote for McCain?
That is so farfetched that anyone would think it's true.

What I am finding, just talking to people at work is that those I never expected to be supporting Obama are right there and they are paying attention. People who are not really politically motivated are paying attention to the process and they are beginning to talk about it like they never have before. They want the war over. They want someone to know they are hurting at the gas pumps, the grocery store, losing their house, not being able to afford health care.....and this is WITH insurance as the deductibles and the co-pays keep rising.

These everyday American workers in a health care related field are saying NO to the Bush years and the threat of it continuing with McCain. The idea that they are going to spite themselves to martyr Hillary is foolish and manipulative.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
121. I'm a white, female, Catholic voter for Obama, and I am not alone...n/t
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. Yet you are in the minority.
I'm tired of the argument: "I'm so and so and I'm not alone". You are one of millions. It is a proven fact that Obama is having a hard time with your demographic.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
123. And, of course, if Hillary was the nominee, there would be no "problems"
because she has a squeaky clean record, no baggage, why, a husband who is the epitome of moral and ethical values, and there isn't one person in this country who wouldn't vote for a corrupt white woman.

I'm rather tired of being asked to addressed crap simply because it comes from the pronouncement of conservative or Clinton surrogates.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #123
146. What does the OP have to do with Hillary?
Quit deflecting.
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LowerManhattanite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
125. This is just sad.
1.) I understand that at this point in the primary season that the math in unbelievably bad for Sen. Clinton, and that's enough to make one understand the more brass-knuckled stuff her camp is being reduced to, but these naked plays to race is so to the mattresses and scorched earth that it almost boggles the mind.

2.) Using the words of Karl Roveno friend ever to Dems in terms of elections, (remember his tirade on '06 election eve about how he had The Math that the GOP was going to win the following day ONLY TO LOSE MISERABLY) as some sort of gospel that progressives should be listening toon a DEMOCRATIC BOARD is just...head-shakingly wrong.

This isn't about a discussion of race. This is about using it as a distraction to prolong the chances of somethinganything happening that may save the losing candidate's fortunes, and if not that, damage the presumptive candidate's GE chances.

Amazing how this discussion is only NOW being posited when things are at their most desperate for the candidate who is almost hopelessly behind.

Or, NOT so amazing, really. :(
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
126. Keep on slicing and dicing and you will NEVER get it
This is what's going on in the country, to one extent or another, this campaign season.




In Dixie, Signs of a Rising Biracial Politics

Across the South, Barack Obamas smashing primary victory in North Carolina last week reflects a new reality a half-century of rising Republican red tide has crested, with signs of receding.

-snip

The trends suggest a region in transformation, with dynamic economic growth, an expanded black middle class, the arrival of millions of white migrants, the return of scores of thousands of African-American expatriates, and an emerging native white generation with little or no memory of racial segregation. The result has been greater tolerance, an expanded pool of talent, and growing openness to new ideas.

In the South Carolina presidential primary in January, one factor in Mr. Obamas decisive victory was his ability to draw 25 percent of the white vote against two strong white opponents, Hillary Clinton and John Edwards. But the turnout may have been the strongest sign of change.

Almost 100,000 more South Carolinians voted in the Democratic primary than in the Republican contest. The surge smashed the previous Democratic presidential primary record by more than 80 percent this in a state where Republicans hold both Senate seats, the offices of governor and attorney general, and both houses of the legislature. The more astute white Democrats saw an energized black electorate as a core element for a future biracial comeback.

-snip

Although the effects of past discrimination still include widespread poverty among African-Americans, its mostly hidden from view. The outlawing of discrimination in employment, under the 1964 Civil Rights Act, has resulted in a unified, biracial work force in which white and black Southerners can more easily acknowledge a common regional identity and biracial culture, as found in music, literature, religion, food and a sense of place.

-snip

Like Americans across the country, many Southerners, black and white, are troubled by the war in Iraq, rising deficits and a plummeting economy symbolized by the soaring price of gasoline. Race itself is receding as a divisive issue. Like the late afternoon sky across the region, theres a purple hue across one horizon.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/11/weekinreview/11bass.h...

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
131. Why does the Monmouth poll in your very own state show the opposite
In early February he lost the primary to Clinton by about 10 percenage points - a few weeks ago he was ahead of Clinton by that margin - a shift relative to Clinton of 20 points. That has to include some whites - there was not a high enough percent of blacks voting for Clinton to make up 20 percent of the Democrats. That suggests to me that at least in your (and my state) his support among whites has improved.

PS I grew up Catholic with a dad who was a milkman. Obama has more support among my siblings and I than HRC.
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #131
151. Obama is not winning New Jersey by 24 points like that poll showed.
He'll win by 10 points max.

But he will win the state.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
132. There is a reason I am a Democrat.
And it has nothing to do with your points above. If this is the last leg the Hillary campaign has to stand on then it NEEDS TO END NOW!

It has no place in the "progressive" party. And if this argument wins the day within the Party, it will be the end of my affiliation with the Party. And if it matters, I am white, female and just under 50.
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stratomagi Donating Member (811 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
136. The point of this is really moot.
There is no way in the primary to prove that these people won't vote for him, they did after all vote in the Democratic primary so you could assume they'd vote for the democrat, most of them anyway. Remember this is a primary, once we have a nom, these same people Hillary is attracting will have to make a choice because Hillary will be out of the picture. If we're going to speculate and make sweeping generalizations imagine if edwards were still in this thing, I seriously doubt even Hillary could lay claim to the white vote if he were still in this.
And besides, Obama has won some of the whitest states in our union, as well as some of the blackest, its intellectually disingenuous to cherrypick states that fit a narrow criterion and say, look he can't get the white vote. Remember he got his start in Iowa, if he didn't win it there we'd be looking at a Hillary nomination by now.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
138. One point that's rarely mentioned:
Let's just concern ourselves with white working America right now.

In the primaries, these people who voted Dem had two choices. They gravitated toward the candidate that they felt would represent them best. In many cases, that candidate was Clinton.

However, you cannot logically argue that, faced with an Obama vs. McCain race, they would either stay home or vote for McCain.

If I want pizza, I have a favorite pizza place that I order from. If that place goes out of business, I don't order Chinese...I order from another pizza place.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
142. I heard one of her surrogates making this argument in WV
He described the voters you are talking about, saying that they aren't going to vote for a pro-abortion, gay-marriage-supporting candidate like Obama.

That's why they would be voting for Hillary he said, quite confidently.

What does this mean? How are Hillary's positions on these issues different from Obama's? These sound like voters who would vote Republican every time, and she is claiming that she is going to get them? How?
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wileedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
143. All of your arguments ignore TURNOUT
If twice as many Dems register and vote in the fall, as has happened in the Primaries, he can get 20% of white voters and still win.

That is one of the ways he beat Hillary - he registered extraordinary numbers of new voters, an in an electoral atmosphere where 70+% of the voters think the country is heading down the tubes, and the opponent is proposing more of the same with an extra dose of senility, there is no reason he can't do it again.

I'm sorry, using figures from elections 20 years ago is not always relevant. What matters is THIS election, and the circumstances around it.

He didn't beat Hillary by accident, and if anything I think she was the much tougher opponent than McCain.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-11-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
159. Locking...
Flamebait and racially charged.

Thank you for your understanding.
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