Obama flips, then flops on talks with Iran.

[2rth2pwr]

QUESTION: In 1982, Anwar Sadat traveled to Israel, a trip that resulted in a peace agreement that has lasted ever since.

In the spirit of that type of bold leadership, would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?

OBAMA: I would. And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them — which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration — is ridiculous.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/13876/democratic_debate_transcript_cnnyoutube.html

That was then, this is now-

Susan E. Rice, a former State Department and National Security Council official who is a foreign policy adviser to the Democratic candidate, said that “for political purposes, Senator Obama’s opponents on the right have distorted and reframed” his views. Mr. McCain and his surrogates have repeatedly stated that Mr. Obama would be willing to meet “unconditionally” with Mr. Ahmadinejad. But Dr. Rice said that this was not the case for Iran or any other so-called “rogue” state. Mr. Obama believes “that engagement at the presidential level, at the appropriate time and with the appropriate preparation, can be used to leverage the change we need,” Dr. Rice said. “But nobody said he would initiate contacts at the presidential level; that requires due preparation and advance work.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/us/politics/10mccain.html?partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all



Do you think this has anything to do with Hamas? Iran sponsors Hamas.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

1. No. I think this has everything to do with your obsession with weak attempts to disparage Obama.

[anonymous171]

2. Obama is a terrorist. Next question.

[Usrename]

29. Make that an uppity black terrorist, hated by hard working whites!

Fixed!

[K Gardner]

33. Who is vacationing at his call center in Gaza right now after leaving the 57 states.

[annie1]

64. lol

[grantcart]

3. yawn so why don't you come out with your 'Obliterate Iran Now' Thread

You do realize that DU is not made up of sabre rattlers and really do prefer this approach?:


But Dr. Rice said that this was not the case for Iran or any other so-called “rogue” state. Mr. Obama believes “that engagement at the presidential level, at the appropriate time and with the appropriate preparation, can be used to leverage the change we need,” Dr. Rice said. “But nobody said he would initiate contacts at the presidential level; that requires due preparation and advance work.”



This post was meant more for the people at Fox News - they got a chatty bunch of assholes in the morning that eat this shit up every morning.

[Eric J in MN]

11. I want the US president to meet unconditionally with the leaders of all other countries.

A good way to start dialogue and keep the peace if there is an incident.

Susan E. Rice's statement makes me less positive towards an Obama presidency.

[grantcart]

26. lol as opposed to bomb bomb bomb and obliterate

don't be misled Obama is going to go around the world and meet with all kinds of leaders - including N Korea is my guess.

But first he actually does have to win the election and by modifying the formulation to include sensible preparations.

January 20th Obamamania goes world wide. The whole world will be shocked to see a Black American Family living in the white house

and there is going to be a real honeymoon for Obama to shake things up. My bet - he goes all in and goes to Israel/Palestine first and gives them all a good hard fucking kick in the pants in his best diplomatic language. Time to move on. He does that and it works then he will have a blank check from the rest of the world to fix other problems. I am looking forward to it.

The statement changes nothing - no time for cold feet.

[FARAFIELD]

4. CRAPOLA,

Susan Rice isnt even his Foreign Policy advisor anymore. Dang get some better stuff next time.

[Eric J in MN]

16. Where did you read that she isn't Obama's advisor? NT

NT

[2rth2pwr]

40. That's possible, he keeps firing them left and right.

[MADem]

5. He's not too good in the foreign policy department. And that is a problem.

First, the guy doesn't seem to understand that "Ah'm a Dinner Jacket" has about as much clout as an Undersecretary of State, in the big scheme. A President should never meet that guy, unless it's at say, a state dinner in China where he's a guest, too.

The Supreme Ayatullah and the Guardian Council run Iran. Not the Midget Mayor--he can't even call out the Armed Forces. Basically, he is the human that the Supreme Ayatullah/Council use as a mouthpiece. They stick their hand up his ass and move his lips, telling him what to say. A lot of times, they'll tell him to get out there and bark, make trouble, and stir the pot, and then they come along acting all reasonable and adorable. It's a frigging game with those guys.

But then, if you don't know about the country, you don't know this shit. If a US SecState met with that clown, that would be a closer approximation of an appropriate meeting.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Better idea: 'obliterate them'

a deep understanding of foreign policy expressed by Hillary Clinton.

[MADem]

21. Take the comment out of context all you want, because that's the only way you can keep that lame

shit up.

Of course, you probably don't know the context, and are eagerly repeating what you've heard.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Obliterating any nation in any context is vile.

And in its original context it was both stupid and vile. Israel is quite capable of doing its own vile obliteration, which Clinton knows full well. She was actually suggestion a token re-obliteration of the already obliterated nation and people of Iran as a consequence of a hypothetical attack by Iran on Israel that will also never happen as a) Israel has either the third or fourth largest survivable nuclear force on the planet b) Iran doesn't have any nuclear force at all and not much in the way of a serious conventional offensive capability either. So this was just genocidal saber rattling by the delusionally desperate Clinton.

Thanks for asking about the context though.

[MADem]

49. Well, I suppose we could always kiss them on both cheeks and greet them with flowers.

Maybe they'll stop hanging women from cranes for "crimes against chastity" and also stop doing the same to gays.

And your "Let our allies take care of themselves" attitude is really helpful....NOT.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. So instead we should kill all Iranians? Obliterate them?

That will somehow make up for the persecution of homosexuals and mistreatment of women? By the way, our friends the Saudis lop off heads for similar offenses. When do we nuke them?

[MADem]

70. That's not what she said, though. And you know it.

That was a deterrence remark, and you are being what is termed "deliberately obtuse" in an effort to support your candidate.

Obstreperousness might make you feel good, but it doesn't advance the truth of the matter.

I don't particularly care for the actions of the Saudi government, either. Your attempt to deflect the issue is, however, noted.

Why don't you take that up with the sitting President, since it bothers you so much?

[Warren Stupidity]

71. I was responding to your 'kiss them on both cheeks' bullshit.

That was what you said, in defense of your failed candidates insane 'obliterate them' remark.

[MADem]

72. Whatever. So you say. Way to parse.

:eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

73. I didn't parse anything. It was your argument.

It is time to stop giving her your support. She isn't even trying to win the nomination for 2008 anymore, she is actively working on her 2012 campaign. You are being used.

[MADem]

75. Well, from someone who obfuscates intent and falsifies context, you will

surely understand how I think you should take your recommendations and put them in a place where they'll not be exposed to any sunlight.

You're being used--by soon-to-be-President McCain. AKA Popeye, AKA Bush Redux. Enjoy the ride.

Have the last word, you no doubt "need" it.

[uberllama42]

46. Where did Obama say he would meet with Ahmadinejad in particular?

I always thought the idea was to meet with the people who matter in Iran. I don't think I've ever seen Obama say anything to indicate that he thinks Ahmadinejad is the supreme leader of Iran and therefore the guy to meet with.

Even if Obama is inept in the area of foreign policy (and I'm not saying he's George Kennan or anything), what are we going to do about it? He's going to be the nominee, and it's him or McCain. He's clearly the lesser of two evils.

[MADem]

51. That's what he said, initially. See the links upthread.

What are we going to do about it? Maybe pick a better nominee, if we're smart. Lose to McCain, probably, is the reality, and count on the cooling saucer of the Senate and the legislative acumen of the House to see us through.

[uberllama42]

52. Neither link has Obama saying he would meet with Ahmadinejad

Nor does he say that he thinks Ahmadinejad is the supreme leader in Iran. That might be "what he said, initially" and it might not. Try again.

[MADem]

58. Gee, he didn't say "the name" there. But he does here.....So YOU had better "try again."

Yet another instance of a "supporter" not knowing what their candidate actually has said, and how he actually FEELS about an issue.

This is quite common here, I notice.

NEW YORK — Democrat Barack Obama says he probably wouldn't have invited Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak at Columbia University but would be willing as president to meet with the Iranian leader as a way to protect U.S. interests.....Obama said there was no contradiction between his willingness to meet with Ahmadinejad as president and his statement that he probably would not have invited him to Columbia.

"As president of the United States, my job is to look out for the national security interests of this country. Iran, in particular because of the bad decision this administration has made by invading Iraq, is a major player in the Middle East," Obama said. "If it is in the United States' interest to make certain that we can stabilize the situation and avoid further military confrontation and curb state sponsored terrorism they've been involved with, that's something we should be willing to do."

He said the Columbia appearance was unnecessary because Ahmadinejad would have other opportunities during his visit to New York to make his views known.

Obama was criticized by rival Hillary Rodham Clinton and other Democrats after a debate in July in which he said he would be willing to meet with Ahmadinejad and leaders of other nations the U.S. is not on good terms with "without precondition" as president. Clinton called Obama's remark irresponsible and naive and suggested it was evidence he did not have sufficient experience to be president.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-09-24-1364154241_x.htm


Soooo.....just in case you thought he wasn't clear, he WAS. He opened his mouth and he crammed his foot in it. TWICE. At least.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. Please stop attacking the nominee

Unless you want 4 more years of Bush style politics, the end of Roe v. Wade, and a conservative SCOTUS, this type of drivel is not helpful.

[rodeodance]

12. only people living in delustionland say silly things like that!! along with Fear mongeling.

......Please stop attacking the nominee

[Warren Stupidity]

17. "living in delustionland" nt.

[JimGinPA]

22. Fear mongeling?

Is that anything like Enlish mangling?

[Joe the Revelator]

27. "Mongeling" huh?

[2rth2pwr]

36. I can't stand speling Natzzi's.

[boppers]

57. You own me a Godwin. n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

44. "delustionland"

[MADem]

59. Well, the way some of the acolytes are "in lust" it does fit, in a way. NT

[movonne]

7. Hillary you are through..please stop these ridiculous posts..it's over!!!

[rodeodance]

14. ah, more crap from la la land.

[Eric J in MN]

8. I like Obama's position as he decribes it...

...better than as Susan E. Rice describes it.

I want the US president to meet with all of the leaders of other countries.

Susan E. Rice saying that Obama would only meet with the president of Iran as a reward for some unspecified change is the same old garbage we have under Bush.

Iran isn't so eager for a meeting with the US president that they are going to fundamentally change in the hopes of such a meeting.

I notice that Susan E. Rice isn't saying that Obama would only meet with the leaders of Saudi Arabia or China if those countries change. It's only Iran which has to prove its worthiness for a meeting.

[DarienComp]

9. Can't you just make your point without the totally gratuitous Hamas reference?

[NJmaverick]

10. This would be example of what will be left behind, in the party transformation

The description of the change is described here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5913781

[HuffleClaw]

13. nice waffling by his cronies

twisting his words in vain. he has NOTHING to be ashamed about and whoever told him he should now waffle on this issue is a MORAN! (hehehe)

[DogPoundPup]

18. Here's the REAL TEST for a President and Hill Failed

Iraq War Vote Was Commander In Chief Test

""I don't believe there is a school you can go to, to train to be commander-in-chief. I think the qualities you are looking for would include, judgment, the willingness to surround yourself with strong people, listening to a diversity of ideas and then forming a conclusion. I think curiosity is important.

If there had been a little more curiosity in the fall 2002 -- if the questions had been asked -- would have raised a lot of suspicions," (referencing the Iraq war authorization vote) "I think you have to look to see whether those qualities exist. And if they do, you have reason to believe that the person who has those qualities would become an effective commander-in-chief."

~~~Bob Graham

[CreekDog]

19. it's not a flip flop

do you understand the difference between the words:

"initiate"

"willing to meet"

apparently not.


but thank you for doing some opposition research for the Republicans, have you forwarded it to the RNC yet?

buh-bye. :hi:

[hokies4ever]

20. How much money did you flush down the drain donating to Hillary?

:rofl:

[jody]

23. BO is doing the best he can. Just continue chanting "Hope, Change, Blame" and look into BO's eyes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Whereas, a REAL Democrat would threaten to "obliterate them"..or, is that "Smoke 'em out!" ?

Swaggering, blustering, "toughness", worked so well in Iraq and Vietnam.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. That's weird - Sadat was killed in 1981; he went to Israel in 1977

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_2520000/2520467.stm

Just want to point out that the questioner may have been trying to take credit away from what happened when Carter was president, and put it in the Reagan age instead.

[Eric J in MN]

32. Good catch.

Since we don't know anything about the questioner (a YouTube participant) I'm willing to give whomever the benefit of the doubt that he or she just got a year wrong without meaning anything by it.

[elocs]

30. Congratulations on giving talking points and comfort to the Republicans.

I'm sure they will have your check in the mail. Is it not possible to promote Hillary without tearing down Obama? Or is there just not that much to promote?

[2rth2pwr]

39. Why attack me? If you have an issue with the flip flops, take it up with the campaign.

[melody]

31. Why are you working against the Democratic nominee on a Democratic forum?

You're promoting McCain when you promote Hillary.

[2rth2pwr]

35. You're promoting McCain when you promote Obama.

There is no nominee.

[melody]

37. No, we do have a nominee -- Obama WILL BE the nominee -- no getting around it

Look, I'd love for Edwards to be the nominee but I'm not going to sit here in denial and pretend I'll get my way.

Obama can and will win against McCain. Every day that you and the supposed Hillary supporters delay our emphasis ON
McCain is one day we lose in the campaign. YOU are helping McCain -- perhaps that's your whole agenda in the first
place.

[2rth2pwr]

38. There is no nominee yet. Sorry. Obama will be crushed in West Virginia.

[melody]

42. It DOES NOT MATTER IF HE'S "CRUSHED" IN EVERY STATE FROM NOW ON

This is what is so sad -- Clinton is using her supporters who don't understand the fine details to blackmail the Obama campaign into paying off her campaign debt and/or the VP slot. She knows damned well she can't win. She's counting on the "working class" (i.e. undereducated) whites to keep up the stump because they don't grasp the details. That's giving her the benefit of the doubt and not thinking she has a more sinister motive -- like destroying our party.

If you want to destroy your party (if you are a Democrat) and help the GOP, you'll keep backing your non-candidate who cannot get the nomination.

[2rth2pwr]

47. Obama hasn't claimed it, get over it, we still have a contest here.

There are a lot of Dems across the country who don't think that Obama is ready.

[melody]

61. You get over it -- she's not going to win and you're helping to destroy the party

However, trying to use reason with some of the Hillary supporters on here is a pointless endeavor. As such,
welcome to my ignore list -- only the second new addition since I cleared it out.

[Swamp Rat]

54. error! error!

:D

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. If Obama is smart, he'll stand up to this bullshit immediately!

They are obvioulsy trying to brand him as a terrorist symptathizer. To fire people or play along is suicide.

He needs to stand up, say "this is NONENSE!" and refuse to play.

The world's problems will be solved by talking. No way should he make any promises one way or another who he will talk to or when. There are opinions all over the board on these issues. There is no one correct approach.

He needs to stand tough on this and talking common sense to the American people!

[2rth2pwr]

41. LOL! Stand tough on straddling the fence! Obama's new campaign slogan.

[rodeodance]

48. ouch.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

56. What disengenuous nonsense. You really think Obama is an Iran sympathizer,

weather underground supporter, or a Hamas supporter?

What a bunch of crap!

He should refuse to play the idiot game.

[annie1]

68. lolol

[cliffordu]

43. Blah de blah de blah blah blah. We got it, on to the next, please.

MAYBE YOU JUST NEED A SNACK....

[Forkboy]

45. Just a waterboy.

Seems like a sad existence you've chosen for yourself.

[Secret_Society]

50. Once again an advisor needs to backtrack on an Obama statement

At least the backtrack makes sense. No dictator should be legitimated with a presidential meeting.

[Swamp Rat]

53. Straw Man

Have some ketchup. :D

[annie1]

67. i was lmao of at the picture but then i realized, this is so sad....

a complete know-nothing 1/2 term senator as president when we need the exact opposite right now. :(. very depressing.

[scheming daemons]

55. The McCain web-site is thataway ------>

At this point, any anti-Obama posts are pro-McCain posts.


You're in the wrong place.

[Yurovsky]

62. Yep, even the most rabid HRC supporters are coming around...

I don't think there will be many who shoot themselves in the foot with a vote for Gramps (or staying away from the polls).

This site will attract Dems in support of Senator Obama, & rightwingnuts who want to pretend they're HRC supporters and take potshots at the Democratic nominee.

[boppers]

60. Other "preconditions":

If speaking on these newfangled things called "phones", both parties need to have one.
If meeting in person, one party or the other while likely have to get on a plane.
Because of scheduling reasons, both parties would have to have time in their schedules.
The people present will require physical security agreeable to all parties.

Oh noes, preconditions! :eyes:

[Bensthename]

65. DU should have another forum for the Hillary/McCain supporters

[Colobo]

66. If you want to attack the Democratic nominee, go to a Republican forum.

[hokies4ever]

69. I love that picture

Hillary looks down in the dumps and Obama looks on top of the world.

[brentspeak]

77. When Obama officially wins the nomination, then, and only then, should the criticism stop

Until then, he - and whoever else is running for the Democratic nomination - is fair game.

[Overseas]

74. McLame wins the flip flop contests hands down

So don't waste time on dumb accusations like this. And cut the crap about Hamas! All the candidates are firm on that issue. Talking does not equal selling arms to our enemies as so-called tough guy Reagan did. Diplomacy is an important weapon in international politics. A lot can be gained through careful communications guided by foreign policy experts. The strongest countries in the world do not have to fear talking with their enemies. We are in a modern era. If our enemies use the meetings for their own propaganda, we have corporate media with a global reach to point that out. Diplomacy may curb the big business of war profiteering from rapid invasions based on trumped-up charges, but we need time to rebuild the full range of our national defense strategies after the destructive privatization of this two-term Republican presidency.

[uponit7771]

76. Proper Preperation = precondition? Come on dude, this is weak as hell