Poor Joan Walsh....( Salon Magazine)

[jaysunb]

She was/is so invested in the Clinton candidacy. She reminds me of so many middle aged white women that I know and care about. They have had an emotional attachment to this idea of a woman President, and now that it seems to be slipping away, they still can't seem to be honest with the fact that Hillary Clinton is not the right person to fulfill that dream.

As a Black man in that age group I'm torn about my sympathy and smugness because I haven't forgotten how THEY got the fruits of the affirmative action programs that were meant for Black men. Not to mention the countless numbers of us who met their fate because of some real or imagined affront.

I continue to remind my friends that the Supreme Court is at stake, and hope they'll keep that in mind when they go forward this election season.

[LisaM]

1. Well then who is the right woman?

I'm getting really sick of the anyone but Hillary argument. Barbara Boxer? I like her, but please. She is very happy where she is.

Pat Schroeder ran a few years back. Her campaign was brief, so you may have missed it. Were you supporting her?

Or Carol Mosely-Braun?

Really, it makes me cross. JUST WHO is this ideal woman candidate, who's actually willing to make a run?

[jaysunb]

4. I think there are others

The Governors of Kansas & Arizona look good to me. I'd work hard for either of them.

[LisaM]

22. Did you work for, or support, Pat Schroeder?

She's about as good as they come, and she has a heart-wrenching personal story on abortion (what they wrongly call partial-birth abortion) that would put the issue into perspective for once and all.

I just find it disingenous (sorry if I'm ratcheting off on you too much) that all these people who say they'd support the right woman never worked for any of the women who've actually run. Their candidates are all theoretical.

[jaysunb]

29. No I didn't

Although I liked her very much personally ( sorta had a crush on her. LOL ! ) she was another PERSON who came along at the wrong time in history. Also, she was never a serious candidate

[LisaM]

34. Sigh. I just think that there will always be a justification.

Of course, it helps Obama (and please don't take this wrong) that he's not so overtly black as someone like Al Sharpton (I thought Al's speech had it all over Obama's in 2004, BTW), but I guess there's not much chance that we can find a candidate who's only HALF female!

[jaysunb]

45. You're smart,

and very thoughtful.

[Arugula Latte]

103. I'm a woman and I don't support Hillary. I would support someone like Barbara Boxer, though.

[LisaM]

104. Barbara Boxer is not running. That is a false argument.

Did YOU work for Pat Schroeder or Carol Mosely-Braun (or at least support them?)

Between Hillary, Mosley-Braun, and Pat Schroeder, you pretty much get the spectrum of available women. Which one did you support?

[Exilednight]

5. Kathleen Sebelius, Governor of Kansas. The truest form of class and integrity who is self made. n/t

[LisaM]

21. I don't like her. When she gave the response to the SOTU

she started out by trying to blur party lines. I found that to be a compromise position and I think she is way more to the right than Hillary.

In fact, I found her response confounding. It sounded like a conciliation, not a rebuttal.

[Exilednight]

38. Do you even know her record? She's quite liberal in a state that is pretty conservative........

take a look at her record, you might be surprised at how liberal she is.

[Jed Dilligan]

67. Like I said at the time:

Not my type but I think she'll play well in Whitemanistan.

[jaysunb]

69. " Whitemanistan "

[Mezzo]

79. self delete. I meant to respond above, and did. thanks.

[Mezzo]

80. How fucking racist of you.

[Jed Dilligan]

81. I'm sure all the poor oppressed white men are deeply offended

I know I am!

[BeyondGeography]

84. Whitemanistan is a keeper...the whole GE will be about Whitemanistan

[Mezzo]

95. poor and oppressed go hand in hand, but OOOOOH you're a fucking hoot.

and a racist. it is really, really sad.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. A: ...........

....... waaaaaay too 'middle'

B: Less exciting than drying paint.

She's great for Kansas, but not for national office. (I said the same thing about Clinton, way back when .... except for the drying paint part.)

[featherman]

8. Clinton certainly had the best shot... I hope another opportunity comes for

someone soon. This American process is so strange and difficult. A strong and capable woman has a much better chance of being rewarded with the top spot in a parliamentary system instead of our political version of American Idol.

[jaysunb]

12. No I didn't support her.

Nor CMB, who happens to be a friend, but I did work to pay off her campaign debt. Also worked hard for Mondale Ferraro.

For me, it IS about Hillary. She has, for better or worse, been a part of the problem the past 20 years.

[last1standing]

20. Just like racism is a larger part of this election than people want to acknowlege, so is sexism.

But there are two sides to both. You ask who the right woman is and I can't tell you. That is a sad statement because I know there are many, many women qualified to run this country including Clinton.

Personally, for me it wasn't Clinton's lack of ability that turned me to Obama after Edwards quit. It was her style of campaigning. I felt she went too far in her quest to destroy Obama. Basically her argument for the nomination became "Now that I've ruined his reputation, don't you see that you can't elect a guy damaged goods?" That was the wrong way to go.

I will say that I won't vote for a president because she's a woman any more than I'll vote for a president because he's black. I'll vote for the person I see as the best qualified. The fact that Obama was not only able to weather Hillary's attacks but come out stronger sealed it for me. I know he was attacking as well, but he was much more discreet about it and much more professional.

My question is do you see any women who are rising stars in the party?

[movonne]

26. One will come along ... just like Obama came along from really

nowhere to probably being the next president...I also would like to see a woman as president...hillary was not the one...I probably will not live long enough to see that, but maybe you will be..

[DontTreadOnMe]

32. maybe the ideal woman candidate has not run yet!

Ever think of it in those terms?

I am not going to vote for a candiate just because they are the "first" of any human category.


I am getting really sick of Hillary supporters lack of common sense.

[dchill]

33. One doesn't need to know who it is...

to know who it isn't.

[NashVegas]

40. The Ideal Woman Candidate

Is the one white men aren't afraid will think independently if/when they agree to turn the White House keys to her.

Think for a moment of Obama's inexperience. If you don't think the white men in the party's upper echelon believe that's going to make him controllable, consider the Wright separation.

[Orangepeel]

64. No candidate is ideal, for starters...

but not only are there women on the national stage now who could be president -- Sebelius, Napolitano and McCaskill to name three -- there are plenty of women that neither you or I have heard of yet. Who knows who will come to prominence in the next 8 years?

[Gore1FL]

65. Sebelius would be awesome

I would have chosen her over Obama (but after Edwards) had she run.

[roguevalley]

106. a woman who isn't for herself first. Obama says we, us. She says

me, I. There is a huge difference. I will not vote for the first woman just because she is a woman. This campaign was awful and if she was such a great choice, she would be winning. She isn't. Ideal woman? How about a good campaigner with good tactics who can sell a good plan? It worked for Obama. Too bad she didn't try it. Being 'inevitable' and feeling invincible is the height of hubris. And I am an old white woman. She offends me with her actions, words and campaign. Too bad.

[villager]

2. Was affirmative action only meant for certain men, and not women?

I think we're all excited that the Oval Office may at last go to someone not stamped from the same template we've used for the last 200-plus years... (i.e., rich white guy, though "well off" still certainly seems to help... )

But we may not want to do the other side's work in pitting ourselves against each other, viz. what group -- outside that template -- is more innately deserving than another...

[jaysunb]

6. I think you're right about the divisive aspect

I wish it hadn't happened like this.

[TexasObserver]

3. She always looks so ... constipated.

How does a person spend a lifetime with such a strained look on their face? She's got that "Debbie Downer" ooooooohhhhh nooooooo look most of the time.

I can't believe they use her. She doesn't do well on TV, it hurts to look at her face, and she's a run of the mill shill.

[wrando]

9. about Joan Walsh

not a Hillary supporter, but one of the best objective journalists left

you morons want to throw her overboard because she doesn't think Obama is the second coming

when MSNBC is all you have left you'll be begging for someone with Joan Walsh's integrity

bill from ct

[jaysunb]

18. I certainly agree w/ you about Walsh

I have nothing but respect for her and her resonable objectivity. I plan to continue read and appreciate her, but I stand by my original observation that was not an attack on Ms Walsh OR middled aged White women.

K ?

[wrando]

41. you people and the msm

you're making it impossible to reconcile Clinton supporters

BO has no chance without us

you are losing us

bill from ct

[jaysunb]

44. Neither does the Supreme Court

have a chance without you.. or this country for that matter..

[wrando]

49. supreme court has been lost

have you noticed the right is firmly in charge of the court and will be for many years

they could reverse Roe any time, but they like the issue better

bill from ct

[IDemo]

48. I was going to say she always looks like she just remembered she left the iron on

but constipated works, too.

[burythehatchet]

59. I hope I remembered where I parked this time

[TexasObserver]

63. maybe I should have used "pained, worried and fretful"

I couldn't look that worried if I tried, and she carries that look as her default facial position. It's got an air of disapproval and displeasure.

[Shakespeare]

7. I've been reading Salon since 1997, and have been stunned at their pro-Clinton bias.

It's not even subtle (though I still love the site, and will continue being a paid subscriber in perpetuity--take note, you KO bashers).

And it's not just anti-Obama; it's anti-anybody but Hillary. For godsakes, Rebecca Traister compared John Edwards to an Orc in one of her Broadsheet posts when he was still in the race.

I think the two worst pieces they ran (opinion pieces, NOT news stories--and they should have been labeled as such) was the ridiculous piece on why Hillary should be winning, and the one from a few days ago trying to legitimize the gas tax holiday proposal. Those were roundly discredited. Come on, Salon. You're MUCH better than that.

[LisaM]

23. Compared John Edwards to an orc?

That shouldn't be funny but it made me laugh. Which one, Shagrat?

[Shakespeare]

25. Just an orc, generically speaking.

It was a hideous thing to do.

[LisaM]

28. Well, yeah!

I could see comparing Dick Cheney to an Orc - hunched over, drinking oil for water - but not John Edwards.

[NashVegas]

43. Someone's Got to Balance Out the 'sphere

it's anti-anybody but Hillary.

Quelle fucking horror.

[Shakespeare]

73. You don't understand the difference between...

...justifiable critical coverage, and outright fantasy pieces, demonstrably so (the two I mentioned). And regardless, I'm still a huge Salon fan, and will remain so. I don't feel it necessary to start an enemies list of every media outlet who says something that says something I may not like. That's another difference between Hill supporters and everybody else.

I've never seen a more tone-deaf bunch of supporters than Hillary fans. You guys will tolerate not a single negative word about her campaign, no matter how much she's done to deserve it. That's not living in a reality-based world, folks.

[Mags]

10. Don't feel sorry for Joan or and middle aged white woman.

We still have a vote in the GE. You many be feeling sorry for BO and yourself.

[Shakespeare]

11. Is that a threat not to vote for Obama in the GE?

Is it?

[Mags]

14. Is what a threat? You folk are so nervous. Your guy is winning.

Why so nervous?

[Shakespeare]

16. My guy was John Edwards. "you may be sorry" is most definitely a threat.

I just want you to be specific, Mags--for posterity's sake.

[Mags]

19. I don't have to explain anything to you, I was also an Edwards supporter. SO?

[Shakespeare]

24. Yeah, that's what I thought. n/t

[Mags]

27. and just what that thought?

[Bucky]

17. Pssst -- you're responding to "Mags"

Mags is here as a disrupter. No posts over two lines long, no posts demonstrating good manners. Don't waste your time.

[Mags]

30. I have been here a very long time, You can call me whatever you like,

You haven't swayed anyone with your crap since you have been here. All you can do is name call. Seems you wasted your time to respond, bucky

[jaysunb]

13. You make my point for me. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Oooo, a threat. I bet you're really gonna enjoy that pyrrhic victory when Justice Stevens retires.

"Sure, Roe v. Wade has been overturned, the birth control pill is against the law, and the Supreme Court has just granted stem cells rights under the 14th amendment.

But But But But the Democrats didn't nominate Hillary--- and it was HER TURN, DAMMIT!

And, of course, it was more important to stomp my feet, whine, and make a point about how MAD I was at Barack Obama than it was to VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRAT WHO WON THE PRIMARY PROCESS.

Waaaaaaaaaah!"

[jaysunb]

54. well...I think you've covered all the bases.

LOL !

[Bucky]

15. "reminds me of so many middle aged white women"

I am so fucking tired of people filtering everything through race. Every time someone injects race into a non-race discussion, they end up looking like a moran.

Joan Walsh isn't a woman; she's a white woman.
Michelle Obama isn't like Jackie Kennedy, she's like a black Jackie Kennedy.
Obama wants to be the black president.
Bill Richardson is qualified to be the first Hispanic Secretary of State.

These are all moronic comments made here on DU in the past few weeks. Everyone quoted on this list needs to get their heads out of the 19th century.

[Mags]

35. poor bucky, poor pitiful you. everybody is against you and you cry,cry,cry.

get over it and grow up. It is politics.

[Bucky]

42. some day, my friend, you will learn how to express a complete thought

You're so close now. Please, keep trying.

[Mags]

60. try to grow up soon.

[dogday]

31. I will be happy to see a Democrat in the White House.

And that sustains me at this moment....

[jaysunb]

37. Good point

and I agree.

[knixphan]

36. Boxer. If she wants to make a run later, she'll have a ton of support.

She'll have to start now, in advance. Barack would back her in '16.

[jaysunb]

39. Don't you think she'd be a little too old ?

she'd be 76. BTW, she's my Senator and I love her.

[knixphan]

83. oh, you may have a point there... I'm CA as well.

[Condem]

47. Poor Joe Walsh!

Did Joe Walsh die?

[jaysunb]

50. haha !

that's not fair

[Condem]

51. thank you, jay

You have a god-damned good sense of humor. Hey, can we lighten up around here?

[jaysunb]

53. light em if you got em

I'm tokin mine as we type.

[Condem]

55. Yessir, Jay

I am, indeed ,with ya!

[grantcart]

56. On a complete different point I would like to point out that the real benificiaries of

affirmative action.

My point is that in post war America order was well established in main street America with its local banks and its local chambers of commerce. Everything of importance was decided literally at the country club. The prime example of this is Dan Quayle. The local newspaper, the local drug store owners the local manufacturers and so on. It was a closed society. If you moved to a new town then you had to have a reference to open a bank account. Up to 1965 it was a closed system. Closed to blacks but also closed to aspiring hard working white men as well.

Affirmative action made it a crime to make those decisions at the country club. Violate it and you broke the law could be sued and also get bad headlines. So the bookkeepers and the accounting vice presidents had to become manpower experts, procedures had to be followed and systems for hiring had to have traceability.

The main beneficiaries of Affirmative Action were the young bright well educated young men who already had the skill set to meet the needs of great jobs but didn't have prior access at the country club. They would get the good jobs and eventually the Dan Quayles would not get those plum jobs. In later years young African Americans and women would benefit from affirmative action in the colleges and universities get the skills necessary to be able to compete in a fair system but it would take time.

The first winners? People like Bill Clinton, hard working, intelligent white guys who never had keys to the Country Club.

[TragedyandHope]

57. One thing to consider

I hate to see the constant tug of war between two groups which have both been handed similar short ends of the stick. I think we will see a woman President in the coming years and I will be proud to support her if I believe she is the best person to lead our country. (Yes, sorry, this is probably a theoretical candidate.) Believe it or not, some of us did judge Clinton as a person and choose otherwise.

Anyway, what I want to ask people to consider is that the tone and conduct of Obama's camapign notably rejects the traditional chest-beating and saber-rattling bluster of politics as usual. That is a completely different mindset than that of our current "War President." I have no doubt that Obama will be able to make the tough choices on national security, but he doesn't have to play a caricature of an American cowboy to maintain his image and get things done. I strongly believe that kind of thing is what leads Presidents down the wrong path to and into military quagmires.

Obama genuinely embraces his own humanity. Of course, the Right may use this in an attempt to emasculate him, as some have already done during the Primary campaign, but I see his humility and willingness to endure and persevere through these attacks as a greater strength than exaggerated displays of caveman machismo.

I think this alone is a significant aspect to his appeal, among many other positive factors.

[billyoc]

58. Tough shit, Joanie, you backed the wrong horse. nt

[Pietrogustapov]

61. "poor" Walsh because she wasn't an Obamabot?

Sure. It makes sense.

[Iris]

62. jobs meant for black men? Like the vote was meant for just black men,too?

My god. could you be more ... sexist?

[Mezzo]

66. "How THEY got the fruits that were intended for black men"?????? FUCK OFF.

How dare you pretend women are not a minority. How dare you pretend only Black men, and not black women somehow are in need of affirmative action.

You are what's wrong with the Democratic Party, sir.

[jaysunb]

68. Are you drinking ?

or just unable to read ?

[Mezzo]

70. since I QUOTED you, I think perhaps you should check either your sobriety or your sanity.

[jaysunb]

71. Ok

Then maybe you should educate yourself as to what affirmative action and the quota system was back in Ms Walsh and my day meant. If you did, you'd uderstand the context of my statement. Granting White women minority status was an afterthought and part of a compromise.

[Mezzo]

75. OMFG. You just proved my point. Sexism in the context YOU intend.

"granting white women minority status was an afterthought and part of a compromise"

Since women got the right to vote a full fifty years after men, you're a bit ridiculous to say the least. Actually, THAT you think there is no problem with that statement tells a lot about you.

and I repeat: You ARE the problem with the Democratic party sir, FUCK OFF.

[jillan]

77. Amen!

[Mezzo]

78. This blatent sexism (and racism while we're at it) is fucking crazy.

This is where and WHY the divide is. This guy *IS* the problem with the Democratic Party. period.

[Lautremont]

85. But women aren't a minority.

[bluetrain]

86. Are you being sarcastic?

[Lautremont]

88. No. There are more women in the world than men. That's all.

[bluetrain]

89. Women are the largest minority group in the world.

[NorthernSpy]

99. originally, affirmative action was meant to reverse the effects of pariahzation...

... and give blacks a stake in the institutions of American life. It was intended to be a narrowly-applied de-"pariahzation" tactic, so to speak.


Thing is, other groups got added to the formula -- including those who had never actually been made pariah groups by law. This weakened the rationale.

[JoFerret]

72. Why are you fomenting division?

Why are you engaging in simplistic thinking?
Are you feeling a wave of self pity or sore winnerdom?
Your empathy for this person rings hollow so I assume your post header is sarcastic. Why?
Are there no black women? Are you angry at them too?

[Mezzo]

82. and sexism. and racism, but I suspect the OP is of the mind that blacks can't be racists, which is

BULLSHIT.

[JoFerret]

93. We all grow up and live in a racist society

We all internalize and try to make sense of those attitudes. We are all racist in our thinking.
The same applies to sexism. Both of these are on display in the post. The self pity and schedenfreud are notable.

[mod mom]

74. On MSNBC tonight she had the gall to say Obama had run his share of negative

ads! WTF is she delusional?

[Mezzo]

76. Do you think Obama hasn't run negative ads? Clearly you're not that stupid, HARRY AND LOUISE

that was a RIGHT WING NEGATIVE ATTACK AD from the Obama camp against Hillary's health care plan, and they ripped it STRAIGHT OUTTA the republican attack ads from the 90's.

[MadBadger]

87. You mean the people sitting at a table ad?

Heaven forbid!

[JoFerret]

101. That was a particularly negative and destructive ad

using republican themes and language to attack a a key democratic value - universal health coverage. That was pretty shameful.
But - all campaigns make mistakes and do whatever it takes to win.

[TexasObserver]

92. that comment was hilarious

She was disagreeing with other comments to the effect that Hillary had been really dirty in negatives, but he had kept it pretty clean. She reacted as if she was personally offended.

She's been Hillary all along, and now she's having separation anxiety watching the campaign's death throes.

[Mezzo]

94. but you do realize Obama has run negative, right? I mean, you're not trying to rewrite history, are

you?

[McCamy Taylor]

90. This thread is flamebait. Divide and conquer is the RNC's best tool. Why is it at DU?

Read Angela Davis's "Women, Race and Class" for why all oppressed people should work together. And remember that in the US as around the world, women are the victims of more violent crimes--rape, murder, assault, domestic violence, child rape, forced prostitution---than any other oppressed group.
African-American women have it the worst of all.

[Kahuna]

91. I hear you Bro. I agree with you about Joan Walsh. She is so

vested in Hillary she has lost her objectivity as a journalist.

[ShortnFiery]

96. You got that right! Day in and day out it's hard to hear her SPEW HRC talking points on Hairballs.

Joan Wolsh is SOOOO "in the tank" for Hillary it's pathetic.

Yet, Tweety treats her like journalistic royalty.

Salon.com really does itself a disservice to keep Joan Wolsh on the payroll.

[xchrom]

97. this is a blatantly sexist OP. nt

[Texas Hill Country]

98. OMFG... meant for BLACK MEN? wow.

[rodeodance]

100. oh stop with the faux outrage. and fear mongling!

[frickaline]

102. This post is blatantly divisive and sexist

"THEY got the fruits of the affirmative action programs that were meant for Black men"

Pitting black men against women? Pretty sad ...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

105. That's One Of The Most Idiotic, Ignorant, And Sexist Piece Of Shit Things I've Seen On Here.

No surprise that it came from such an ignorant jackass.

[The Magistrate]

107. Locking

Flame-Bait.