It's All About White Middle Class Racism

[QueenOfCalifornia]

and I am not kidding.

I know I am usually trying to be funny but I am irked by what I see as the underlying message to the voters. Barrack Obama can not win because he is a dark skinned person. Don't bother voting for HIM. He will never win because he is black... or My personal favorite... I will vote for McCain if Hillary is not the nominee. And this gem: I will not vote if Obama is the only choice I have. He is an empty suit.

The list goes on.

I came from a long line of southern racists. I can smell it a mile away.

I am so sick of this crap.

I am embarrassed to be white.





This one says it all!

[Henryman]

1. I smell it too!

This is our chance to show what we've learned in the last 40 years and we are going to blow it!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

2. It stinks

to high heaven.

I see change in a skinny, black man. And yes, he gives me at least a fragment of hope.

[ikojo]

13. If Obama is considered black because of his

Kenyan father, then isn't he also white because of his American mother?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

22. That is the

straw man argument.

When you see him, do you see a white man or a black man?

[ikojo]

44. I know, but I think it's a silly thing.

I have nieces and nephews who are darker than Barack Obama and they are not of African ancestry.

[dugggy]

115. Racism is NOT based on skin color, rather it is based on...

"perceived" economic viability of the race. Orientals are
non-white yet face much less discrimination than blacks (AA). Why?
Because the orientals as a race in US are more successful financially,
educationally and very few are in prisons as a percentage.

Note that even in old South Africa where racial preference to whites
was the official government policy, the Japanese people were made the
only exception of all non-whites. Why? Because Japan was essential to
economic development in South Africa.

Even in US, likes of Michael Jordan & Tiger Woods have faced very little
discrimination because they are extreme upper class economically.

[goletian]

155. lol, i beleive you have no idea what youre talking about. and they dont like being called orientals.

lol...

[dugggy]

156. I know they want to be called "Asians" but Asia includes such

diverse countries as Iraq, Turkey, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, and of course the orient.

[redqueen]

26. Whre I live there's an unwritten rule.

One drop of black blood, and you are black. It doesn't work the other way.

[ikojo]

46. That's silly though.

I know the Germans said the same thing about Jewish blood.

[redqueen]

49. It is... but it's an old thought pattern...

and it isn't going away quickly.

http://www.mixedfolks.com/names.htm

[leftofcool]

3. Sorry, I am white and am voting for Hillary

I am not racist and am in the upper class income. I just think she is the better candidate. 48% of Dems think so as well. Those of us in that 48% are not appreciative of being told that we are all racist just because we don't support your candidate.

[redqueen]

16. This isn't about you, it's about the Clinton campaign's recent statements. (nt)

[QueenOfCalifornia]

37. You noticed.

thanx

:hi:

[redqueen]

45. Thought it was obvious!

:hi:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

81. I saw the

tattoo.

Did it hurt?

[avenger64]

146. Posts like these make me glad I'm voting for Nader.

I'm not giving in to this type of victimization and blackmail. Call me any name you want. But don't be surprised when I vote against you, if not for that very reason.

The white devil Hillary Clinton has been bashed by the media for over a decade now, and she received unfair treatment in this campaign, probably from the likes of you. Remember what John Lennon said, "Woman is the n***** of the world". It really showed in this campaign, from Republicans and Democrats alike. I'm not playing along.

Obama is going to get us 4 more years of GOP rule.

[redqueen]

147. Posts like what? Like me saying that I thought it was obvious what the OP was about?

How the hell does that translate to victimization and blackmail?

:wtf:

[avenger64]

148. I replied to the wrong message - meant the Original poster.

Sorry, redqueen.

[redqueen]

149. That's fine!

But I hope you know that the OP wasn't trying to say that anyone who supports Clinton over Obama is a racist.

[kmsarvis]

18. Where in the op does it say that all Clinton supporters are racist?

[Jamastiene]

31. Exactly.

If they had chosen a black candidate who didn't praise Reagan and hang out with homophobes, they might have had my support, but no, they didn't, now did they?

[emilyg]

Thank you.

[Aussie leftie]

106. I can see a new era of political correctness coming up n/t

[kennetha]

4. It isn't racism

Obama couldn't get those votes if he were a white candidate with the same profile.

It's complicated. First, he's been pretty successfuly branded as an "effete, intellectual liberal, professor type" who looks down on the working class and is sort of "culturally alien" to the working class. (Mean feat for his opponents to have pulled that one off.)

It has something but only a little to do with race. There is the Wright controversy, to be sure. But I think that isn't about race as it is about Obama's inconsistency "I could no more denounce him than I could my white grandmother." he said just about, what, two or three weeks before denouncing him. Makes him look political.

Plus his style on the stump is too pie-in-the-sky abstract for working class voters. These voters no what concerete, specific things you plan to do to make their lives better. Obama isn't about concrete specifics.

I dare say, and have said before, that with his style he really wouldn't even be getting a large share of the black vote except for good old fashioned identity politics. He's a Gary Hart, Bill Bradley, Howard Dean type -- except that he's part AA. None of those guys had much reach into the AA vote. And Barack wouldn't either, except for his complex racial heritage.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

20. Paleeze

You don't see the racism? You wont look at it?

You maybe should stop being defensive and read this:
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/318011

I am serious. As a white person it isn't pretty. BUT to not see it for what it is - well, it is just not realistic.

[hokies4ever]

127. WONDERFUL LINK!

Thank you very much. Just read it as well as the 'Race to the Bottom' by Betsy Reed.

[Two Americas]

85. agreed

Both are true - it is not either/or. What you are saying is true, and racism is a major factor as well. Racism is pervasive - still. It is a national disgrace. But it is not an on/off switch - the f-ing right wingers have turned it into that: a person "is" or "is not" a "racist" and the criteria for that has been dumbed down and rendered useless by the right wingers. There is a small percentage of whites who are irredeemable on the issue. That may never change. But the vast majority of whites can be reached. Almost all whites have some racist attitudes, but much of that is a product of ignorance, fear and propaganda. That can be overcome. That can be eliminated. I will never stop believing that, and I will never acquiesce to the idea that racism is inevitable or can not be eliminated. Never.

[IsItJustMe]

5. Yep, I have been around it for most of my life. I can recognize it a mile away. It's not pretty,

and perhaps some day we will get beyond it, but for now, it is what it is.

[zanne]

10. I'm curious.

Do the racists you know (or known) follow up racist statements with "But I'm not a racist"? It seems that noone is a racist anymore, no matter how foul and inexcusable the language.

[redqueen]

25. The ones I know do.

The worst one... no matter what horrible shit she says about minorities, she will always point to the charity she gave to the brown people back in the day as proof that she's not racist.

[TahitiNut]

32. Yup. Right after they proclaim "I'm not a racist" they'll often say one of the following ...

- "I work with a ni__er and he's a really good guy." (Clearly, being able to work with one proves it.)
- "I used to love watching Oprah until she sold out." (Being a fan of someone on TV trumps voting.)
- "But I know a lot of folks in my town just won't vote for him because THEY are." (Racism-by-Proxy)
- "There are LOTS of well-mannered blacks." (Everyone must know their 'place' in the natural order of things.)
- "Martin Luther King, Jr. was an incredible man!" (The exception disproves the rule?)
- "The home health care aide that bathes my husband is black." (I guess seeing him nude negates racism.)
- "I've even donated to the NAACP." (The Catholics used to call this an indulgence.)
- "THEY'RE the ones who don't like white people!" (Blame-shifting - it's like a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card.)

... and lots more.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

68. Dear TahititNut

You are extra nutilicious today!

Peace!

[polmaven]

89. No one has ever said

racism is not an issue in this country. I do not believe, however, that is is as overwhelming an issues in the Democratic Party as we have been hearing for the past few weeks. The assholes you are describing are not likely to be voting for ANY Democrat. They are likely to be racist, anti-Semitic, homophobic misogynists, all rolled into one. They are simply bigots, and I still believe 99.9% of them are not Democrats.

Understand this ....THE CLINTONS ARE NOT RACISTS!!!!!

Senator Obama is, at this point, the overwhelming favorite to be the Democratic nominee. He will, however, believe it or not, need the support of the people who voted for Senator Clinton. He will not be well served by his supporters continually charging that they (The Clintons) are racists.

"It is all about racism" casts aspersions not only on the Clintons but on their voters as well. False charges of bigotry will not assist your candidate. It can only put him in a bad light.

I can only assume that the statement by another poster above that is is about the Clintons' "latest remarks" is referring the the electability question. Have you all ever stopped to think that, maybe, just maybe, they are referring to what they see as experience and name recognition issues?

Senator Obama's name not as well recognized? How can that be? ...Not all voters out there are politics junkies like we are. Not all voters out there even watch the news on a regular basis, not do they watch TV shows that may be showing a whole lot of political ads.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.....We all want a Democrat in the White House in 257 days. Please, since it is very much likely that it will be our responsibility to make sure that Senator Obama is that Democrat....PLEASE don't work against that goal by continuing to make this accusation!

THE CLINTONS ARE NOT RACISTS!!!!!

[TahitiNut]

91. "Racism-by-Proxy"

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/500

[polmaven]

105. So basically,

because SOME are racists, we are all racists "by proxy". Even by denying it, we are simply proving our racism.

Well, then, I guess I am a super racist, because I am going th YELL it....

I AM NOT A RACIST.....Get past this bullshit if you want to help us all win the White House back from the real dangers to the country.

[TahitiNut]

117. It seems to upset you. Even though NOWHERE do I say "all" or "you" ...

... or even infer that, you seem obsessed with denying not only that YOU are but that either Clinton is. The fact of the matter is that the only person any one of us really has to answer to is our selves. I think it's terrific that most folks regard racism as so reprehensible that they would feel offended if it were even suggested that they were. Then again, I'm old enough to remember that folks in the 50s and 60s who vigorously supported Jim Crow laws, red-lining, segregation/apartheid ALSO protested that they weren't racists. After all, what they supported was "normal" and the "natural way of things." (They were "Democrats," too.)

George Wallace was adamant. He wasn't a racist .. so stop saying that.

I'm also old enough and experienced enough to know when folks are blowing the "dog whistles." The wonderful thing about the "dog whistle" is that it's easy to deny and it doesn't wake up folks that're sleeping (or deaf).

Do you know what "Munchausen's by Proxy" is?? In the melodrama of Life, Rescuers need Victims - and someone to point to as the Villain. Rescuers don't like it when the Victims stop being Victims.

Here's the key, as I see it. In the above, and in sexism and racism, AND in "identity politics" where folks are grouped into bins by "type," we're practicing the objectification of human beings - commoditization - dealing with human beings as a means to an end instead of an end in themselves. In politics and business, the question always seems to be "are they useful to me?" That's why the paradigm of the melodrama is so useful. We often treat people in terms of their "role" ... usually as Victims.

Often, however, we see people laying the "victim card." SOME claimed that Obama played the "victim card" labeled Race. SOME claimed that Clinton played the "victim card" labeled Gender. That's why I thought Ferraro's posturing that Obama was taking 'advantage' of his race ... that he benefited by being black ... was particularly revealing. This is someone who knows how to play the the "victim card."

What's really, really noxious about this is that there ARE victims. Victims of sexism. Victims of racism. Victims of human objectification. Indeed, as I've pointed out a number of times, our entire "immigration system" is almost nothing other than Trafficking In Human Labor ... a gross form of human objectification. This is something so well-known by some that we even have a Federal law that prohibits treating labor as a commodity.

I'm not an Obama 'nut' ... and I'm even LESS of a Clinton fan. I voted for Kucinich. In my view, Kucinich showed the MOST respect for human beings - and objectified human beings the least. (Boy! Did THAT anger a lot of folks!)

Hillary has, imho, played this 'game' far, far more than Obama. She's played the "Poor Nell" role AND sneered at the "uppity black man." Reprehensible.


But I'm wasting my time with this. It falls on deaf ears.
If you get this far, go back and reread slowly ... in a CALM voice. See if it makes sense.
Otherwise...


Go in peace.

[CitizenLeft]

94. I don't believe many people think the Clintons are racists.

What is more disappointing is that they're willing to use racism - stoke the undercurrents of bigotry with subtle comments - to win over those Archie Bunker Reagan Democrats in rust belt states to win votes. They KNOW better... they have fought for civil rights for decades, so they KNOW the face of racism... and to win this nomination, they have embraced it. That, to many - to me - is much worse than being racists themselves. I'm not sure I'll be able to forgive them.

[polmaven]

103. Please!

PROVE to me the stoking of the undercurrents of bigotry......Saying "I am a more electable candidate" is what EVERY candidate says EVERYWHERE!

It has nothing to do with racism!

[CitizenLeft]

119. Just for you:

"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me." … "There's a pattern emerging here," she said.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-07-clintoninterview_N.htm"> Link to article.

The very definition of "stoking the undercurrents of bigotry." If you can't see that...

[QueenOfCalifornia]

96. It is bigger than that.

I am talking about a prevailing undercurrent of white America. Not the Clinton's per say. I really do not think they are any more or less racist than most Democrats. It is such a subtile thing for us who are white. We do not see it or feel it the same way that a person of color lives it day in and day out.

I am not charging the people who vote for Clinton with racism. It is so beyond that. I am saying that "white, middle class America" is unintentionally racist. It is built into us (if we are from my generation) I am 51. I grew up with a Republican, Mormon racist mother and a moderate step-father. I spent my summers in Tallulah Louisiana - a very small town on the Mississippi River next to Mississippi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallulah,_Louisiana - I saw the way blacks were treated and I remember being hurt by it and I felt helpless to change it. I was a child.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE CLINTON'S ARE RACISTS Not any more than a lot of well meaning people.

The fact is, white America is trying to heal. Black America is trying to recover.

What the Clinton campaign has done is play off of the deep, underlying, ugly part of white America. They have used anti-black feelings to further their agenda.

That is the reason I am sickened by all of this. We take one step forward and then with this crap we are forced to stumble backwards.

Barrack Obama is a human being who could mend some of this by bringing people together. It is my hope. I am banking on it.

[polmaven]

102. So the majority of white Americans...

are racists....a prevailing undercurrent of white America.....That is exactly the kind of attitude about which I was speaking.

The vast majority of white Americans are not racists. Period, the end.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

124. Yes

I believe that even well intentioned people who think they are not racists, are. They are the ones who say "I would vote for a black man but I don't think that a black man can be elected in this country." They are the people who say "I can't be racist, I work with a black woman and we get along great!"

Racism is as subtle as being a black person, trying to flag a cab in NY and being passed by over and over because the cab driver believes either one or both of the following: "That person may kill me or rob me." or "I know they wont tip me so fuck 'em."

Ask the people on these boards if they understand what I am talking about. Post a poll. Find out if they see something you are obviously missing.

The vast majority of Americans could not possibly be racists? How about half? Could you see where 50% of white America are racists? How about 25%? What amount of white America do you think still hold onto their racist roots?

[hokies4ever]

130. Why do you have a racist avatar?

:rofl:

[loyalsister]

100. A democrat whose boyfriend is running for office in my town

told me that personally that she wanted Hillary Clinton to win because she is as woman and because she is white.
You can only be sure about your own associations and experiences. Not all Democrats behave as we would hope.

[hokies4ever]

129. Does Hillary love black people as much as you do?

:rofl:

If so, then why did her campaign just have a 1-hour conference call lamblasting Obama for not winning the white, working class vote while also saying that it's not as important to win the black vote in the primary season?

[EffieBlack]

90. As usual, you are dead on!

[TahitiNut]

122. !

:hug: :yourock:

[Demobrat]

33. The worst one I know

lives to accuse others of being racist, or sexist, or both. It's classic projection, and would be funny if it were not so ugly.

[IsItJustMe]

39. Some of my relatives are racist. Seems to me, the ones that live in big urban areas with large AA

are the ones that denny their racism. The ones that live in rural areas are the ones that revel in their stupidity, and will actually make jokes about it.

[roseBudd]

80. You forgot, "I have black friends" I mean coworkers

[Jamastiene]

6. I smell something too.

Bullshit!

[earth mom]

19. Agree with you. Obama's a corporatist-I'm not fooled and I won't be shamed into supporting him. nt

[redqueen]

27. I don't think anyone is trying to shame anyone into supporting Obama.

I think we're supposed to be ashamed of the Clinton campaign's recent tactics.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

42. You deny

racism exists?

That white middle class America is not racist?

[Jamastiene]

74. Broadbrush smears sure exist.

I never have denied that racism exists. I just call bullshit when someone claims that all of white middle class America is racist. It's simply not true. That is a broad brushed smear if I ever saw one to claim that bullshit.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

75. All?

I never said all.

[Jamastiene]

84. You implied it though.

That is the problem. Racism does exist, but to say that supporting Hillary Clinton makes her supporters racist is just bogus.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

138. You miss a

valuable point.

I can't force myself to type it over and over but if you want to really understand why some of us see subtle shades of hate lingering within the old guard - i.e. white middle America, scan through this thread.

[gkhouston]

7. Underlying? Pretty fucking close to the surface, if you ask me.

And it's disgusting, no matter where it is.

[ej510]

9. This is exactly what Hillary was talking about today,

[QueenOfCalifornia]

63. I was trying to

be "nice" - I was also making a point. Most white people get their hackles up when confronted with how people of color are forced to deal with racism every day.

Democrats are far more likely to enact change and push for equality but there are a lot of peope who just deny that it is real and it is part of our society.

[nomorewhopper]

8. its not the voters who are racist, it's HILLARY saying that they are too racist to vote for Obama

important distinction

[QueenOfCalifornia]

58. I am trying to say

both.

No matter how much you try to wash it out, white racism is here. I know it. I live with it in the background of my life. We have friends and relatives whose only reason for not voting for Obama is they have been told he can not win an election because he is black.

I believe that if Barrack is the nominee and all of us Democrats pulled for him, he will be elected. I also believe there is a segment of society who will never vote for him because of the color of his skin.

I am just saying that we have a problem in this country and we can not keep sweeping it under the rug. We need to face it for the ugly monster it is and change it.

It is just what it is and it can be changed.

[dogday]

11. And again the "R" word rears it's ugly head..

You know some people just have a different choice. I would not care if our candidate was purple as long as he did the job... But if I did not choose to back him, it would be because of the issues..

Sure there are racists our there, but there are also a hell of a lot of good people.. Who do you think helped Obama win NC last night..

[QueenOfCalifornia]

61. Of course

there are good people.

I hope I am one of them. You are probably a good person who eschews racism too.

I know that there are people trying to change how dark skinned people are viewed.

I am saying that white, middle America (Not just you) has a problem with dark people. There is a very real racism that is an undercurrent. It is also part of this political race.

[dogday]

66. To change one's views is to aspire to help them to understand

and not just label one a racist.. People vote for what they know, that is a fact... I hope in November it won't matter whether our candidate is purple, as long as they know he is a Democrat....

[bunnies]

12. Camp Clinton is making her the KKKanditate.

In their effort to make Obama "the black" they have made her "the white". Fuck that shit. Im tired of being classified by my color and genitals. We ALL should be.

[IsItJustMe]

56. That's the way I look at it. I am a lot of things, but the only true thing I identify with is being

a human being, first and foremost. And the rest of it (race, sex, religion, ethnicity, heritage, country, state, etc...) is all secondary.

A famous person once said, "Once you label me, you negate me."

Let other people label themselves and try to label me. But I will never allow anyone to label me. For what I am and what you are can never be labeled.

[bunnies]

72. We are in a million percent agreement.

:toast:

[polmaven]

92. I will need for you to

SHOW me specific instances of the Clinton campaign "effort" to make Obama "the black"! And I mean real instances...not the "Jesse Jackson" remark..cause that was bullshit. The Shaheen statement about the Republics using Senator Obama's admission of cocaine use? Bullshit also. The Republics will use that, and it has nothing to do with Senator Obama's race. It has to do with them being Republics.
How about Senator Clinton's "remarks" about MLK? More bullshit.

Specific instances that are not bullshit, please. I want to see where she has said anything like "He cannot win because he is black"!

[hokies4ever]

131. How about their conference call yesterday?

Telling people that Obama won't win the white working class in the general election because he can't connect with them. Must Obama reject and denounce his blackness now? Burn in hell Hillary.

[Darth_Kitten]

95. oh brother.

n/t

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. It Was All Revealed To See When The Reverend Wright Issue Came Up

How could a man, who dedicated six years of his life to service to his country, took care of an American president, and spent the rest of his life helping those who needed it the most be rebranded as an enemy to this country. What else could force Obama to publicly disown someone who by all objective measures is a good man?

It's about as plain as the nose on the face.

[malik flavors]

15. The republicans are going to try to completely divide this nation in the general.

They won't even be subtle about it.

Hopelly they overplay their (race) cards, and it backfires.

[DMorgan]

28. They will be subtle........very very subtle

Question his "patriotism" Question his relatives, question his record on supporting working (white) people.

Very definitely we have to go after this...........sooner than later.

[malik flavors]

88. His support for working people is solid. Certainly stronger than John McCain's.

[K Gardner]

17. They don't even try to hide it anymore. So now we've come to it: Will white racists

vote for a black man? This is essentially the last argument they have, and the one they are making. And I just turned off MSNBC, where it was the panel discussion.

[TheDonkey]

21. Not exactly. It is mostly just older 60+ white voters

many younger white voters do not seem to break in such alarming fashion for Hillary.

[NJSecularist]

40. Yeah, just older 60+ voters...

The most reliable voting constituency in the United States. :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

Old voters... who cares about them?
Working class voters... who cares about them?

Hope and change!

[JackORoses]

69. Old Racists will not hold the future back

Their old road is rapidly fading.

Please get out of the new road if you can't lend your hand
Cause the Times they are a-changin'

[NJSecularist]

70. Old racists?

So anybody who doesn't vote for Obama is a racist? :crazy: :crazy:

[JackORoses]

76. you are so full of yourself, and consequentially full of shit

You have been making wholly race/prejudice based arguments on this board for weeks.
Cloaked in a "White BlueCollar" argument.

We all know how you feel. "A Black man can't get elected" OK, we get it.

but remember this,
A Passive Aggressive Racist, is a Racist just the same.

You may think you are above prejudice.
But if you use the prejudices of others to score your political points, then you are not as clean as you imagine yourself to be.

[Catherina]

86. Young Racists will not hold the future back either

Their nasty road is rapidly fading too.

in the name of another personal quality--honesty--I'd like Hillary Clinton to make the following statement: "Though my opponent has run a terrific campaign, in primary after primary, I have proven that I am the more electable candidate. I am more electable because I am white. Barack Obama--Wow!--he's certainly inspired a lot of hope, but as voters in Indiana and North Carolina make up their minds, as the superdelegates make up their minds, they should remember that Barack Obama is black. They should also remember that a whole lot of white working-class Americans are racists. White racists are an important part of the Democratic Party, and time and time again, they've supported me because I am white. I am ready on day one to govern as your white American president."

If this sounds--excuse the pun--beyond the pale, it's because it is. Or at least, it should be. But the alleged racism of white working-class voters has become, through her campaign's own actions, the last remaining rationale for Clinton's candidacy.

Are white working-class voters really racist? How many and where? If a significant number of them are, should Democrats really court them on the terms of their racism? These are questions worth asking since, apparently, a lot of Democrats think they're valid. But as long as the Clinton campaign continues to code the fact that it is counting on a base of white racist support, we'll never have this conversation. And as long as the mainstream media indulges the euphemism of "electability"--one that makes white racism seem like a personal deficiency of Barack Obama's--we'll be stuck mucking around in diffuse fears and anxieties that nobody, least of all Hillary Clinton, wants to name.

So here's my final suggestion: as long as Barack Obama is called upon to explain, denounce and reject black racism, let's have it both ways. Let's have George Stephanopoulos ask Hillary Clinton how she feels about the white racist vote?



http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/318011

[polmaven]

93. And old!

n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

126. I don't think anyone said that

and if you read the post you responded to again maybe you will see the intent of the post.

Also, throughout this thread this has been addressed by a lot of people who understand the original point of my OP.

Peace.

[hokies4ever]

134. You're spinning out of control

It's okay not to vote for Obama, that's your prerogative. Doesn't change the fact that Hillary is using slimy tactics though.

[Darth_Kitten]

98. I'll trust the oldsters who actually were around the time of the Civil Rights....

movement more than the younger know it alls anyday.

[hokies4ever]

133. Screw logic

because you're just ranting. Nobody said old voters don't matter.

[DMorgan]

23. Very good thread... Thanks... I was lucky enough to grow up with non-racists

Sorry for your background but you should be proud of who you have become!

Thanks for this thread.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

108. Thank you for

saying this.

I am struggling with my own crap daily. I have not passed my racism down to my children. The cycle has stopped. That is the best thing I could do.

[hokies4ever]

135. I commend you for passing down good values to your kids

because that's the best way to change this country, one person at a time. :-)

[sandnsea]

24. A black man or a woman

You know, the supporters of a certain other candidate said repeatedly that we had to vote for their candidate because a black man or a woman couldn't win in the south, and we have to have southern states to win.

In fairness, this particular line didn't start with the Clintons. They just took it to a whole new level.

[cooolandrew]

29. We need not worry. Randi Rhodes has said when the eonomy tanks incumbents lose.

[LucyParsons]

30. My boss was saying this today

Not in a racist sense - she was a Hillary supporter but will enthusiastically work for Obama as the nominee; but in a display of what I view as over-pragmatism.

I think America is ready for a non-white (or non-male) president. I think the contrast between Obama and McCain in the upcoming debates will ignite a massive wave of enthusiasm for Obama (and, in turn, downticket Dems) across all demographics. Of course there are racists in America; but don't you think Obama's outcomes in so many Southern and Midwestern states, and especially his numbers among under-40 voters, are a great cause for, dare I say it... hope for America?

There will also be people who don't vote for McCain because he's "too old" or people who wouldn't vote for Richardson because he's "Hispanic" or people who wouldn't vote for Romney because he's "Mormon". It's not really as straightforward as "America won't elect a black guy." I think this campaign has moved America past that. But we shall see.

Maybe I feel this way because I am 28. Though I would add that I was raised in East Texas among your typical variety Biblical literalists and racists. Sure, some of them won't vote for him because he's black; but those folks left the Democratic party in favor or the GOP LONG ago, anyway. And good riddance.

[IsItJustMe]

67. You make a whole lot of sense. No matter what we do, we are always being judged. If it's not one

thing, it's another. It's the US versus THEM mentality. Some people won't like you because your a Northerner, some people won't like you because your not a Baptist, some people won't like you because your a male. The list goes on forever.

I originally was not for Obama because I thought America was too racist and he did not have a chance. Boy, was I ever wrong.

After seeing what happened in the primaries, with him being slapped around again and again with the issue, and yet he still came through, I am a believer.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OzarkDem]

35. Great way to win over those crucial swing voters

Obama is good at running against Dems, but knows nothing about running against Republicans.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

110. Excuse me

but i don't understand what you mean.

Obama is just a man. I think he is doing a pretty good job and I hope he is our next POTUS. I think your comment is strange.

[graycem]

36. I'm getting there with you..

The more I hear them talk about it on the news, they seem to be saying they believe racism is stronger than his ability to overcome that by asking that "electability" question over and over, and I just want to pull my hair out. Electability has become front and center ever since Hillary started pushing this line of reason for her to stay in. It's crap, that's what it is.

How do they know now isn't the right time?? Because Hillary says so?? When will be the right time if not now?? I happen to think it's their own racist prejudices that are making them arrive at those assumptions. They pretend he won't get any of Hillary's voters if she were not in the race, and that's just NOT true.

[DMorgan]

38. From another forum, but germain to this discussion

Racism-By-Proxy
Posted by TahitiNut in General Discussion: Primaries
Wed Apr 30th 2008, 12:10 PM
Having spent nearly six-and-a-half decades on the planet, some things are far too obvious to ignore. One of the most obvious 'games' that's been played out over and over and over again is Bigotry-by-Proxy, the self-righteous, condescending, "pragmatic" exploitation and perpetuation of racism (and misogyny) by folks too cowardly and duplicitous to get their own hands dirty.

"The fans will NEVER buy tickets if we have blacks playing major league baseball!" Others older than me will recall this even better ... and then Jackie Robinson came along and ticket sales soared.

"The troops will NEVER tolerate blacks in the same units with whites!" Then Harry Truman finally ordered the integration of the military and another false specter evaporated.

From Country Clubs to sports to politics to business, the Pragmatists-With-Crystal-Balls (or other breakable substance) have ALWAYS found cover and concealment for their bigotry by presumptuously and patronizingly portraying the Parade-of-Horribles as though it's licensed to march on any street.

It's OBVIOUS why this works. "Who, Me??? How DARE you call me a racist!!"


"Our clients will NEVER accept a WOMAN representing them!" Anyone who doesn't recall this, or its twins, doesn't have the life experience of a turnip. It's the "gentlemanly" and "wise" posture ... far more pervasive and effective than wearing a hood and burning a cross.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

78. Thank you for

this.

You are right in reposting TahitiNut's post.

[jillan]

41. I am so f-ing sick of this bullshit.

Just because someone doesn't think Obama can win DOES NOT MAKE THEM A RACIST!

It's as stupid of an argument as someone calling people that don't like Hillary 'sexist'.

[redqueen]

51. This is a response to the Clinton campaigns recent tactics.

Not an accusation that anyone who doesn't support Obama is a racist.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

60. That is not the point

I am saying that no matter who the black person is, racism is there.

Ask the black people here.

Do they feel it?

Sense it?

Know it?

Holy shit.. recognize it for what it is. It is the ugly ogre who lives under the stairs. It is reality for my black friends who tell me it is real. I am saying I am ashamed of this.

[JackORoses]

71. if your reason for doubting his electability is 'the racism of others', then you are a racist

a Passive-Aggressive Racist, but a Racist none the less

You pretend to be above prejudice while using the prejudices of others to make your point.

[DawgHouse]

43. I will be voting for a Dem in the GE.

[progdog]

47. It does stink.

Like addicts that will find excuses to use. Any excuse they can hide their racism behind they'll use it. Flag pins etc. Thanks for the post and calling it what it is.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

79. You are welcome

It smells like cat crap... doesn't it?

[ShortnFiery]

48. That's precisely why Hill is sending Billy on his 3rd (SC, NC -now WV) "Dukes of Hazard"

tour of rural WHITE WV ... yeah, on the back of a Pick-Up Truck.

The Clintons have no shame and are going "full bore" with that Southern Strategy in WV. :thumbsdown:

It's no coincidence that HRC started with 60% of the AA vote but after BUBBA's performance in SC, that rose to 80-90% ... they EARNED the distrust of People of Color.

Just the Good ole Boys ... STATE'S RIGHTS!!! :crazy:

[iamthebandfanman]

50. i hear ya

ive been raised around and had dealings with racists all the time.

still run into openly racist people from time to time just out and about in my area of the country.

its disgusting

[QueenOfCalifornia]

64. That is what I

am saying.

People wake up.

It is real.

Saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong. Just put your feet in the shoes of your average black person for a day. It is part of our landscape and we need to enact a change. I hate that it is here. I am frustrated that I have my own demons I deal with from being raised by racists.

[iamthebandfanman]

82. oh its totally legit

and trust me, the racist people i run into arent always white either ;)

racism and bigotry know no bounds. lol.
and theres alot of it to go around in my state ;)

[moobu2]

52. I was sworn in in my county court house,

so I could personally set up a voter registration table at the black College in my town. I was there at lunch for 2 hours every day for months. I registered 100’s of young black people and encouraged them to follow through and vote because I knew many weren’t participating, and from talking to them, I was right. I just decided to do that on my own one day after reading a story about young blacks in my town not voting. I’ve lived in a mixed race neighborhood nearly my entire life and had many close relationships with my black neighbors etc etc etc….. I’m not a racist, and I wouldn’t vote for Barack if he were the only person on the ballot. The Clintons aren’t racists either.

[redqueen]

54. This is about the Clinton campaigns recent tactics, not you. (nt)

[hokies4ever]

136. That doesn't prove that you aren't a racist

it's like saying that a certain man can't be sexist because he's married to a woman. :rofl:

FYI, it is possible to do good deeds toward a group of people (black, white, gay, straight, male, female) and still be prejudiced against them in bad ways. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Not asserting that you're a racist, just pointing out the lack of mutual exclusivity underscoring your argument.

[seabeyond]

53. sexist and racist.... i see both. it is just what the person abhors more....

i see people that in no way will vote hillary cause she is woman and people that are offended the choice of obama cause he is black

i chose obama. but then i am not racist nor sexist so my choice is in the candidate.

but i would like to be clear that i have seen both, equally, with both candidates. racism and sexism. both are equally ugly

i think what has happened is clinton has grabbed on and is using it

i have not heard obama grab on to sexism, i think his wife would kick his butt... but there is the possibility cause i have not been watching closing. i have not had to watch closely to see hillary grabbing the fear of a black man.

[stillcool]

55. Obama can not win because he is black..

and Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

[redqueen]

57. And Iraq was a threat, so we were right to invade. (nt)

[southern_belle]

59. Yes, it is

:(

[psychmommy]

62. knowing that there are more people like you,

than the other kind. really helps alot. i am feeling that is the message the sd's are sending-another poster brought this up. it is very frustrating. what else does the man have to do. i think they're going to steal it. they are so sure that blacks will still come out for her. this one won't. i will not justify their theft of this election.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

65. Trying to

make change in my daily life.

It is putting one foot in front of the other.

xoxo
:hi:

[Zynx]

73. I will say this though, if a candidate ever ran explicitly as a racist, most whites

would be repelled by them and vote against them. I'm quite certain of that.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

77. Of course

It is why the KKK wore white sheets and hoods. No one wants to be open about it.

[Fox Mulder]

83. You're right.

That's what it has come down to.

I couldn't care less about those racist assholes. No Democrat should try to reach out to them.

[GreenTea]

87. What middle class? There's no more middle class, we are all just workers trying to

keep our heads above water...thanks to republican ideology, years, from Reagan to years of republican Congress to eight years of BushCo and the even greedier sicker republican agenda.

Find a new analogy, the middle will continue dying a slow death as this inevitable recession goes into depression because of the selfish republicans have produced this country's debt, stealing from our treasury and everywhere & everything else that wasn't tied down ...Now we the workers have to pay.

Using racism as your theme and pointing the finger at some crackers you seem to know so well is fine...but it ain't the middle class there's almost none left and less everyday and were ALL in the same boat together, sinking...only stupid ignorant working class republicans think differently...so fucking what they'd never vote for a democrat anyway even if they were a rich white heterosexual Christian male...if he's a Dem - forget it!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

142. You must

really enjoy pounding your shoe on your desk.

Why the anger at me (or the OP)?

I do not need to find a new analogy. In fact I do not recall using an analogy. White Middle Class is a descriptive and no comparison or analogy was intended or made.

You are angry because I see something that doesn't bother you.

Also, saying that I seem to know some crackers "so well" is the real finger pointing. If you are white and work out in the world (as you suggest) then you know some of those "crackers" too.

But thanks for being pissed off by something that should just make you take a glance around you. To find a problem whit me using "Middle class" as a point of reference is nit-picking and you know it.

[lastliberalintexas]

97. Oh bullshit

While there are plenty of people who don't like Obama just because of the color of his skin, I would bet good money that most of those people aren't Dems. Most of those same people also don't like a feminazi bitch like Clinton daring to think that she could lead a nation. Again, those people are not real Dems.


There are plenty of reasons to not like Obama, and many people are in that group. I am a white female who was turned off from his campaign originally by the Reagan comments and McClurkin incident, even though I started out pretty neutral to positive on him. And then when local Obama supporters made the argument that Clinton should not be president because a female leader would violate biblical creed, well the religiosity of the whole Obama experience pushed me over the edge to not liking him. Southern blacks, mostly women, telling me that women should stay at the back of the political bus. Fuck that.

Obama is too conservative, he has taken very bad stands on energy issues, he has voted to continue to waste my tax dollars on an immoral war, he doesn't have a good healthcare proposal and he pushes religion into the public sphere far, far too much for this agnostic. And yet, I will vote for Obama. I would have voted for Clinton. I would vote for the fucking proverbial ham sandwich if it ran as a Dem. But I'll be damned if I'm not tired of the racism accusations coming from Obama supporters as the only possible reason people would vote for another, even though they insist that race plays absolutely no factor in why people vote for him.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

101. Please be reasonable

I think you need to quit being defensive. It isn't as simple as that. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5873034&mesg_id=5878403

I am not a simple minded idiot and I do not appreciate the inference.

I am talking about the BIG PICTURE.

[lastliberalintexas]

112. I'm not a supporter of either

I've been called bad things by both camps, since I don't bow and scrape to their chosen one, even though I have repeatedly posted that I will vote for either. Which, ironically, is more than many Obama or Clinton supporters have done.


Your OP strongly implied that the ONLY POSSIBLE REASON anyone could have for opposing Obama is that the person is racist. As one who is not a supporter of Obama, how the fuck do you expect me to take that? You didn't just argue that there are many, many racists in this country who will never vote for the man. No, your post implied that race is the only reason, veiled or not, that anyone could have to oppose him. You weren't talking about the big picture, you were generally accusing people of being racists just because they don't support your guy.

I've seen some nasty comments on this site about Obama, and I've defended him when I've seen them (the worst one I remember was a "boy" reference). I've also argued against the sexist terms used to describe Clinton on occasion. But by no means do I think that everyone who opposes her is sexist, since there are also plenty of legitimate reasons to oppose her nomination. It's just as silly to believe similarly about Obama.


Far too many of the people crying racism against Obama never discuss actual racial issues. I rarely see people on this site discussing the racism involved in sentencing in this country, especially given the fact that black men are several times more likely than white men to be sentenced to death for similar criminal conduct. I rarely if ever see people on this site discuss the underemployment issues facing the black community, the crumbling infrastructure of our inner cities, the dying schools in our urban areas, the highly disproportionate incarceration rate of minorities in this country, the low registration and turnout rate among minorities, the even more inadequate access to healthcare of minorities and their higher uninsured rate, or minorities disproportionate representation among the nation's uninsured.

But you know, those things aren't hip and groovy and don't make the poster cool. Instead, it makes the poster sound a little too much like Kucinich or Sharpton, and isn't as fun as the American Idol elections we have in the US. Have you stopped to ask yourself for a minute why MLK III didn't endorse Obama? Is he also a racist? Or did he see that Obama is by and large ignoring most of the issues that actually affect too many in the African American community? If we're all honest with ourselves and TRULY ignore race for a minute, I bet we could agree that a President Kucinich probably would have been the best thing that could have happened for the African American community in this election cycle.

Not everyone is hung up on the color of Obama's skin. Some of us are just hung up on his moderate platform and can't get past *that*. :shrug:

[PassingFair]

99. My 83 year old aunt is a self-avowed racist....

last weekend she told me she was going to vote
for Obama anyway!

BUT, she still thinks his wife is "ugly and mean".

WHATEVER! Let her transfer her fears to
the first lady, as long as she VOTES for
the best man.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

104. She is not alone

and bless her. She has had her mind turned to mush by people who would whisper "who let that ni---r in here?" ---

She is a product of her time.

Too bad she did not learn that humanity is made up of the same blood we all shed, it is all red.

Michelle Obama is beautiful and strong. That is what you may want to say to her.

Thanks for an honest post. :hi:

[MrSlayer]

109. I got my mother to vote for "The Zebra".

As she calls Obama. She's mad because they call him black when he is also half white. She'll do the right thing in November.

[PassingFair]

114. Whatever it takes with some of that generation....

She knows she's wrong, but ....
still clings to the intolerance.
It must have been HEAVILY reinforced
in the home.

I am sad that my Dad was somewhat
affected as well...

[MrSlayer]

121. Actually I had more trouble with her than my dad.

Which was a shock because he was a Bush voter and lifelong Republican. He happily and with no prompting from me voted Obama. He really regrets supporting Bush. Mom has gotten weirdly judgmental and socially conservative since she recovered from cancer a couple years ago. I think the chemo fucked her up, she's never been the same.

[RBInMaine]

107. OK, let's not inflate the racial rhetoric one way or the other. Most are NOT "racists". Times have

changed. Let's not channel Wright. Not what Obama himself would want.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

113. You are not getting it

I mean it. please scan this long thread for my comments that explain the spirit of the OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Yes the last one tells it all

[QueenOfCalifornia]

116. The last what?

You speak in cryptic phrases...

Tell me.

What are you talking about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. the last photo

democrats will be towed

[BenDavid]

120. the only problem is you do not look to damn hard because all you

would have to do is sort out some of the obama semi bigots and then take your smell test.

[Beacool]

123. No it isn't !!!!!!

There are plenty of reasons not to want to vote for Obama that have nothing to do with race.

Oh and yeah, he IS an empty suit with a razor thin record. No hefty resume here, no siree.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

125. Hello!

You may want to scan this thread before you start the Shrillary Scream. I explain this over and over.

[Beacool]

140. I don't buy your argument.

Neither Hillary nor Bill are racists. If you and other Obama fans believe that crap, then that's your problem. This is really a crazy election when people start calling the Clintons racists.

I couldn't care less if Obama was lily white and spoke with a southern accent. To me the guy is not ready to be president. Period, end of story.

[hokies4ever]

137. Plus he doesn't have any war experience

like dodging sniper fire. :rofl:

If I'm married to a doctor, am I qualified to be a surgeon?

[Beacool]

139. Cute........

Try another joke.

[hokies4ever]

141. How much money did you flush down the drain donating to Hillary?

:rofl:

[Beacool]

143. Probably not as much as you flushed nominating

the empty suit. I have given plenty of money in my lifetime to many candidates and not all of them won either. Hillary is still the better candidate.

We'll just see who ends up laughing in November......

[hokies4ever]

145. You're just like Hillary

rooting for a McCain presidency. Say goodbye to Roe v. Wade if McCain is President. Hillary is just a lying pantsuit willing to pander to anybody for a vote. No wonder she feels right at home with racists in this country.

By the way, if you can't run your own house, how can you run the White House? She obviously doesn't have the 'testicular fortitude' to be President if she can't even stand up to her husband's constant cheating ways.

[Beacool]

152. Typical Obama supporter.

Had to bring up Bill's infidelities. Well, I'll take Bill and his cheating penis any time over a guy with a chip on his shoulder about race (ditto twice for his wife). Obama is little more than a slick operator who has managed to bamboozle people into thinking that he's better than the Southside Chicago politician that he truly is.

Like the guy? Vote for him, the rest of us have other options.

[Kittycat]

128. Except that last sign should be changed to:

Republicans & White democrats only. If you accept Hillary's position.

[Freedom Train]

132. "I am embarrassed to be white"

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard, being embarrassed by your level of skin pigmentation. But there you have it, ladies and gentlemen: Obama's campaign is propped up by White Guilt.

YOU are the one making this all about race instead of issues, and then you accuse your opponents of being racist for not agreeing with you. I can smell your BS a mile away.

[uponit7771]

144. It goes over my head but I'm not white, I just don't see white America being as racist as the media

...or HRC says they are.

[avenger64]

150. Bull****. Don't give in to this kind of blackmail ...

... This is the same emphasis on identity politics that has driven the democratic party away from it's real concerns - like national health insurance, and stopping funding for Iraq, building a new energy infrastructure before oil hits 500 dollars a barrel, or wherever it's going.

Clinton has a track record in government, support from working-class voters, who are getting hit hardest by this depression we're in, and wants universal health care (unlike her opponent). She's been treated unfairly treated by the media, who took on Obama as their Anointed One until Jeremiah Wright came along, and it was too late to switch back to Clinton.

The OP is trying to blackmail you by using the dirtiest word in leftist lexicon - you're 'racist' if you won't vote for Obama. Not that you think that he's a bad candidate who will lose to John McCain, you're just plain and simple a racist. Don't give in to this - the proper response to someone who's calling you names is to take them for a fool, and you certainly shouldn't vote the same way a fool does.

[EFerrari]

153. Have you listened to the Clinton campaign recently?

Calling out race baiting is not blackmail.

[Beacool]

154. Very well said!!!

The new Obama strategy: If you don't vote for him, then it has to be because you're a racist. There could be no other valid reason in their mind for not voting for their hero.

Please.......

[QueenOfCalifornia]

157. I guess

you haven't been paying attention to her campaign.

I find your attack on me to be curious.

Apparently you don't see what I have seen my whole life. An undercurrent of racism. Which is what I posted. I am not and have never said that those voting for Clinton are all racists. You have conveniently put words where they never were. So instead of making statements which are clearly meant to discredit me, why don't you fairly look at a real issue and think about what my intentions are. Certainly I am not attempting to make or force or blackmail anyone into a vote for a person they clearly can not support. What I am saying is there is something ugly that stinks in this country.

[Rubiconski2009]

151. It makes me so sad.....

Barack Obama is our leader!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJgr7cTRMx8