So, you're upset that Hillary won't just lay down before the final bell?

[bigtree]

I understand your frustration.

But, this fight is going on to a decision in about three weeks. Her rival, the honorable Barack Obama, is the odds on favorite in that decision, but, who knows?

I'm looking forward to hearing the voices of the voters in all of the upcoming, remaining races, especially in Kentucky, West Virginia, and Oregon.We'll get a decision on Michigan and Florida and we'll go on to choosing our nominee.

I don't see the need for any more of the acrimony about Hillary Clinton's perseverance in this race. It didn't work to push her out of the contest when it began after Iowa, and it's just too late now to make any difference.

Three weeks. That's all we have left to manage in this primary. The extended contest has energized the voters in these states like never before and has firmly placed the Democratic stamp on the upcoming presidential election. Both candidates deserve great credit for the energy, enthusiasm, commitment, and determination which has elevated our party's values, principles and agenda to a national level of focus and acceptance.

Both candidate's supporters deserve a great deal of credit for how they've carried our message to the voters and have made this such a dynamic and historic contest. I'm looking forward to the reconciliation in our party which is, without a doubt, going to be a momentous coming together of Americans determined to take our country back.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. No, kos is upset, the rest just follow.

[JuniperLea]

7. Kos...

Is a cry baby. There is no real reason for Hillary to drop out, except to stop the cry babies. That's not enough reason.

[Texas Hill Country]

17. kos is a former repuke that became a dem for cash.

[JuniperLea]

27. I'm just sick of him, personally

Anyone with a little cash can start a website. His writing has improved a hell of a lot, but his perspective seems to be getting worse. Maybe it's the money hindering his view.

[skipos]

30. Uh, there is a good reason for Bill and Hillary to drop out

they won't get the nomination. Obama is our nominee, and we need to focus our attacks on McCain. We don't need our nominee to have to fend off attacks from the Bill/Hillary/McCain coalition if he doesn't have to.

Giulliani, Huckabee, Romney and Thompson could have stayed in for longer but they didn't. They are more interested in having a Republican president come November. Bill and Hillary aren't dropping out because they don't care about having a Dem President in November, unless it is them.

[JuniperLea]

37. Rhetoric gets us nowhere

There is no reason why BOTH campaigns cannot refocus their efforts against McCain! Ignoring the other candidate and forging full steam ahead against McCain is the right thing to do. If one of the candidates continues the attacks, it only serves to make them look foolish... from the gutter... while the rest of us take the high road.

I'm not saying who is who... despite what you may read from supporters here, both candidates have spent too much time on negativity.

[PoliticalAmazon]

83. As Maddow said, there hasn't been a clear road to victory for Hillary for....

months. Basically, she's just been hanging on in the event something bad happens to Obama.

I agree. It's clear that Hillary is holding on in the event Godzilla steps on Obama or something. In the process she is wasting valuable Democratic resources, and hurting the Dems' chances in November.

[grassfed]

106. waiting for Iran strike and response when she'll appear Butch

[Maven]

39. Kos

is a weasel. I honestly can't stand to watch or listen to him and I wince every time he appears on TV as I think the way he talks and presents himself personifies every caricature of lefties that has been pushed by the right. It's like watching "Colmes" represent the "liberal" viewpoint on Fox. Painful, just like his unreadable orange website.

[Blue_In_AK]

33. I'm pissed off at Kos

because he's endorsed the "liberal" as opposed to the "progressive" Democratic candidate for House here, the one who is also supported by Rahm Emanuel, and the DCCC. It's not that the liberal is a bad candidate, it's just that the progressive is so much better. I take Kos with a grain of salt.

[Rob Gregory Browne]

54. nt

[Lilith Velkor]

97. I am happy that Kos is upset

[JuniperLea]

2. Proud to be the first to rec this!

Very well said. The whiners need to cool their jets and leave well enough alone. The only thing hurting the party now is the incessant cry baby routine. Let it be.

[susankh4]

152. "The only thing hurting the party now is the incessant cry baby routine."

Boy ain't that the truth?!

I have never seen anything like the whining of the entitlement brigade. Maddow and Olbermann... geesh... get the silver spoons out of your mouths.... they are not helping your candidate.

[bigtree]

159. mostly just frustrated, anxious folks,

I imagine they'll be more sedate about the next primary contest after watching this one run its course without all of the dire predictions of 'damage' to the party coming to pass.

I recommend Will Pitt's post today . . .


This long primary race is a blessing. A true gift to the country. Thank you, Hillary. Seriously.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[susankh4]

160. Yeah. I know.

But it's hard to have compassion for the truly obnoxious.

Anyways... thanks for the thread rec. I kicked and rec'd it.

Totally true. Hillary will do anything for the Dem party. Even if it costs her plenty and she works her butt off for little recognition. She is the workhorse she always has been. And her understanding of big tent democracy is like no other.

[LakeSamish706]

3. No, because now she is talking about going beyond the end of the Primaries again...

There comes a point when this becomes insanity on her part, and we are rapidly reaching that point (if we haven't already).

[JuniperLea]

8. So the fuck what?

It's not going to change the outcome.

[SoonerPride]

10. No, but it might affect November

which is the race that matters

[JuniperLea]

22. Oh no it will not

If we shift our focus from stabbing each other in the back, we will have two campaigns, and two camps of supporters against McSame.

The constant clawing at "the other" candidate... who is a Democrat, FCOL, is getting just plain stupid. We have a lot of energy we could use toward making sure a Democrat gets to the White House. Why waste it beating the shit out of each other? That is plain stupid and it doesn't help November in the slightest. If anything, it hurts.

[bigtree]

14. that's just talk

you should know well that the delegates and others won't allow that to happen. Sen. Clinton never had that kind of influence to carry the party beyond the end of the primaries and she certainly hasn't gained that kind of influence in this campaign, in my view. This will come to a reasonable decision.

[Tinksrival]

76. Who has to pay her back 12 million????

???????? Obama supporters????? DLC????? Take it from the general election funds????
She can burn as much of her own cash as she wants. If she wants it back (LOAN) FORGET IT!
The only way to win is to cheat and I'm not paying for that.

[bigtree]

105. whatever. If you haven't donated to her, then you have no real say in what she does with the money

. . . her supporters have donated to her.

[Tinksrival]

153. She has no money and

is in debt up to her eyeballs. If she can't win and she keeps loaning herself $$ then she and her supporters should have to deal with that. I just think it's irresponsible. All of it!
Public financing and election reform is needed bad in this country. This I think we can agree!

[BlooInBloo]

4. I'm not upset by it in the least. Let's keep fighting. We'll keep winning.

[Egnever]

5. not in the least she can stay as long as she likes

its the lies inuendo and outright race baiting that go along with it that gets me riled up.

If she stayed in in promoted the obvious nominee instead of spreading more bullshit like the gas tax holiday I would have no problem with it whatsoever. Unfortunately she makes huckabee look like a class act.

[BlooInBloo]

6. Hah! Beat you!

[Egnever]

21. damn you Obama bot!

[BlooInBloo]

26. :))

[scheming daemons]

9. Actually... she's become a living breathing parody of herself.... so I say... STAY IN

She destroys her standing and credibility a little more each minute.


Let's completely destroy the "Clinton Brand" so we never have to deal with it again.


Stay in, Hillary. You've become a laughingstock.

[bigtree]

see, this just isn't about the destruction of one of these candidates, for me

to each their own

[BlooInBloo]

23. Nor is it for me. In order to elect the best candidate, we have to fight until the others quit...

or are beaten.

Since neither has happened yet, we keep fighting.

[bigtree]

36. yep

politics

[Umbram]

11. I look forward to this campaign going forward

I just hope the media and candidates can quit manufacturing artificial divides in our party by focusing on race, class, gender, age, etc.

[Ganja Ninja]

12. Even with FL & MI she has to win 75% of the remaining delegates.

Just so you know what kind of lost cause you're dedicating yourself to.

[bigtree]

15. I'm dedicated to effectively completing the three remaining weeks of the contest

. . . and picking our nominee.

[lapfog_1]

13. I see we are at Defcon-2 again

and the ignore filter is not working...

sigh.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. I don't think anyone should be upset

1) It provides the outright comedy of watching her supporters go down with the ship; this will be an increasingly hilarious spectacle as the lifeboats move farther and farther away. The real hardcore Hillarians deserve every minute of it, too.

2) Posts about "graciousness," etc. look ridiculous next to bluster about "toughness." So, her decision to stay in at least puts off the pathetic whining by the most grievous Hillarians that everybody should be nice to them now after they've been absolute douches for six months. The more they celebrate toughness, the easier it is to laugh at them over point 1, above.

Seems win-win to me!

[bigtree]

38. enough with the ridicule of supporters. there is no 'sinking ship'

we're all in the same boat.

[bowens43]

18. The final bell rang weeks ago

unfortunately, hillary is prancing around with her fingers in her hears shouting "LA LA LA LA LA ' as loudly as she can so she didn't hear it.

[bigtree]

24. I think many of the voters in the upcoming states, and those who've voted in between

. . . would disagree with you. Their participation has been productive and energizing.

[muntrv]

19. I just want Hillary and Obama to aim their guns at McBush, not each other.

[Arrowhead2k1]

20. I'm not looking forward to more contests between Hillary and Obama, it's OVER.

We need to seriously start focussing on McCain like yesterday. If Hillary is going to stay just to 'save Obama embarrassment' fine, but then she would need to immediately stop trying to tear down Obama and provide arguments that work for the Democratic party's prospects in November.

[olkaz]

25. The problem is that the final bell sounded yesterday.

And I didn't expect her to lay down before yesterday.

But now, well, the superdelegates are making it pretty clear to her.

[bigtree]

28. actually, there are voters still waiting to weigh in.

They deserve to have the same voice in this campaign as the others. It makes no sense to shut them out now, with only a few more weeks left.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Yes there are. Let's keep fighting.

[MadHound]

151. Oh please, stop with this precious voters bullshit

It is not until this campaign that we started hearing about how every single fucking primary state's voters deserved to be heard. We didn't hear this sort of shit when Kerry wrapped up the nomination early and we certainly didn't hear it when Bill did an early wrap, twice. But now suddenly, when it is obvious to all and sundry, weeks ago, that Hillary has no chance, her supporters come up with this shit about all voters being heard. Double standard much?

Hillary's continued presence in the primary does not do anybody do any go what so ever. Instead, all it is doing is exacerbating some deep wounds within the party, and it allows both Hillary and McCain to keep on tag teaming the Democratic nominee. Frankly if Obama loses in the fall, a large part of the blame will justifiably be laid at the feet of Hillary, her supporters(many of whom are refusing to vote for Obama in the general) and her campaign.

All Hillary is doing right now is sacrificing the party on the alter of her greed, vanity and stupidity. Frankly, despite her denials, I think that it's becoming increasingly apparent that Hillary is staying in this in order to try and throw the election to McCain, all so she has another shot in 2012.

She needs to put the party and the people ahead of her own ambition and bow out now.

[rodeodance]

150. ah another NON donating member who is here just to smear Hillary.

[GoesTo11]

29. A fighter who keeps hitting below the belt should not be allowed to stay until the final bell

[bigtree]

34. the voters are the referees

. . . and they haven't disqualified her from continuing. Nor have they awarded her rival the championship.

[calmblueocean]

31. I'm not upset that she's staying in the race. I just don't like the divisive way she campaigns.

She's playing up racial divisions, her campaign has called Obama "unelectable", she's repeatedly characterized him as "elitist", etc., etc.,

[bigtree]

35. I have similar problems with her rival's campaign.

That's the nature of these things.

[Egnever]

42. difference is her rival won

she is the loser its time for her to shut the fuck up.

[bigtree]

44. well, according to the rules, he hasn't 'won' the nomination yet

That decision will be made in about three weeks after one of these candidates gets the extra delegates to line up behind them. I personally believe Barack Obama has a strong edge on that decision because of the lead in pledged delegates he's amassed. I'd be surprised to see the extra delegates rally around the other formulas that have been offered.

[Egnever]

51. neither has mccain but huckabee had the grace to keep his trap closed

and not try to bring down the percieved nominee. Clinton is doing no such thing, she made it clear today the kitchen sink garbage goes on.

[bigtree]

53. Huckabee didn't get 16 million Americans to vote for him

[Egnever]

64. that somehow justifies trying to tear down the parties percieved nominee?

[bigtree]

67. ha. Obama's not made of glass.

welcome to politics.

[Egnever]

71. so your answer is well since he hasnt officialy been given the nomination

it just doesnt matter how much shit we throw at him?

You are right he isnt made of glass he just trounced her despite her throwing everything she could get her hands on at him.

The story will continue from here out she will throw shit he will rise above it and still beat her. what do we as dems gain from all the shit she throws between now and when the official designation is put in place?

Other than of course more time for you to "support" the losing candidate?

[bigtree]

75. I thinks the complaints about 'shit throwing' are hyped and, in some cases, hysterical

I don't think it has the effect that you describe.

[Egnever]

79. precisely bec8uase he is not made of glass

yet are you seriously going to sit there and argue that the last three weeks of crap have not had the effect of driving up our candidates negatives? How long do you think its ok to keep driving those negatives up?

all for some pipe dream of a candidacy that has no legitimate shot at the nod? Please

[bigtree]

82. No, I don't think the nattering over the campaign charges will have any lasting effect.

And, I don't agree with the characterization of Hillary Clinton's historic campaign as a 'pipe dream'.

[Egnever]

87. obviously you dont

do you seriously think she has a chance of winning at this point?

[bigtree]

92. no.

[Egnever]

94. then why continue to fight between ourselves?

[bigtree]

95. because this is about the issues these candidates represent for the voters who've supported them

It shouldn't be surprising to see a candidate ensure that those concerns will be represented at the convention and in our party's platform by persisting. I think the historic closeness of this contest makes that intention all the more understandable.

[Egnever]

what possition is it you are trying to push exactly?

Cause there isnt a whole lot of difference between their stated positions.

[bigtree]

108. recognition of the importance of the upcoming, remaining contests

. . . and reconciliation for the general election.

Listen to the voters (and not just the ones you agree with)

[Egnever]

103. what possition is it you are trying to push exactly?

Cause there isnt a whole lot of difference between their stated positions.

[Egnever]

104. what possition is it you are trying to push exactly?

Cause there isnt a whole lot of difference between their stated positions.

[calmblueocean]

49. Give me some specifics.

Watching Obama's speech last night, I thought it was very generous toward her. Obama has personally stood up for Hillary several times when he could've used the opportunity to score political points. (His debate answer when asked about Snipergate comes to mind.) Obviously, there's going to be some back-and-forth between two candidates competing against each other, but on balance it seems to me that Hillary's campaign has been far more inflammatory, divisive, and duplicitous.

I mean, the very nature of her campaign at this point is extremely divisive. She wants the superdelegates to award her the nomination even without the most delegates? I just can't in my wildest dreams see how that would end with anything but Hillary being booed and hissed on the convention floor, and millions of voters turning away from a party where it seems like white people get special treatment.

So I just can't accept that both campaigns are equally divisive. I just don't see it.

[bigtree]

52. nope. I have no interest at all in going through any of that.

I'll keep to my opinion though, thank you.

[Radical Activist]

68. No one ever does.

I see this same claim made many times on DU but I've never seen anyone give a specific comparable example. Its the typical Republican distraction tactic of accusing the other side of what you're most guilty of doing.

[bigtree]

73. It's not an accusation. You can't have it both ways. You don't want the attacks here.

But you seem to be begging for them from me. I have not agreed with the attacks on Hillary Clinton for the behavior of these campaign hacks and I won't go on and on about the slights I perceive from Obama's political hacks (or, from him personally). I recognize that these things occur in a political campaign and that both campaigns have tried to leverage support by highlighting some of those slights. That's politics. But, I really see no use at all to outline those here and argue about them. You should appreciate that.

[Cha]

40. hilary can do whatever the fuck the wants..she

already lies down with bil o'lielly, rush limpbaughs, richard sciafe, mark penn, bil clinton, the military complex, the mediawhores, ect, and the rest of the garbage that America has breeds.

[bigtree]

yeah, yeah

you hate . . . *yawn*

[Cha]

43. Wake the fuck up...you warmongering lovers

Always fucking napping when shit goes down.

[bigtree]

47. Fuck off weasle.

[rodeodance]

110. and Obama said NOT to call mcCain a war mongler. So now you just call Dems war monglers

[cbayer]

41. Although they are hard, contested elections are good in the long run.

People get energized and interested and feel that they, as individuals, make a difference.

Great post bigtree.

[bigtree]

56. yep. What a difference this Democratic primary has made in the national discussion of issues

. . . since the muddle we had following Congress and their collective, tepid politics.

[jillan]

45. Exactly! Just because Obama will most likely be our nominee is not a guarantee that

everyone is going to be happy about it....

or in some cases, even vote for him.


It's not a given.

[bigtree]

48. we'll work hard on support for our nominee

. . . from all voters

[ClayZ]

46. I feel sorry for her.

I also feel sad that she would not do what is BEST for the party and country!


Obama is OBVIOUSLY our candidate.

We the people have spoken.


There is no "WE" in her "ME".

[bigtree]

50. well, she's said she will work for the nominee if it's not her

that's as much as we can ask. I really don't expect for her to carry his water until this contest ends, though.

[Rob Gregory Browne]

55. The final bell rang long ago. But Clinton has been wearing earplugs. nt

[Beregond2]

57. The final bell

rang in February, but Hillary has gone deaf.

[bigtree]

58. that's not the way our primary contest is set up

of course, she could have just handed the race to Sen. Obama in February. That's not what I'd expect from my choice of candidate.

[Straight Shooter]

59. Super Delegates say, We will decide

"Uncommitted Democratic superdelegates in Congress overwhelmingly say they won’t necessarily back the presidential candidate who wins the most primary delegates. Instead, electability will be very important in their decision.

Of 42 lawmakers interviewed by The Hill, only four said they regarded the primary vote as decisive.

The congressional superdelegates’ independence is precisely what Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) is banking on as she trails by about 130 pledged delegates behind rival Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.).

It also means the Democratic Caucus is unswayed by its leader, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (Calif.), who has warned that the party will suffer if superdelegates overturn the will of primary voters. Pelosi has said superdelegates should take into account whatever is important but not give the nomination to the candidate who lags in delegates."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/superdelegates-say-...

_________________

The longer the race goes on, the more clear a view the people have of Obama and whether he is causing unity or division among the electorate, whether by his own design or the simple circumstances of the dynamics of the campaign.

One more thing needs to be kept in mind, which is that the GOP admires a fighter. Right or wrong, they admire tenacity, and Repubs may well come to look upon Obama as a conciliatory sort of guy, but not the fighter they envision to protect the country and its interests. Thus, crossover voters in the primaries may well change their mind by the time the GE rolls around.

No matter what, it's going to be tough. I just want to vote in Oregon's primary, and I'll be satisfied.

[bigtree]

60. I think voting does satisfy, more than any artificial resolution of this contest would.

I think the end of the voting will satisfy.

And, I disagree that a significant majority of the SD's will disregard the delegate count. We'll see.

[Straight Shooter]

63. I haven't voted for the candidate of my choice since Carter.

Everyone since then has been default.

As for the SD's, the article is from The Hill. Poor Pelosi isn't an effective leader, there may be backlash against her by the SD's out of spite. Maybe the exit polls are hardening and election forecasts can be made on the basis of what they show. The SD's will be paying attention to that.

Also there are unforeseen events that await us.

Thanks for keeping it positive, bigtree.

[damntexdem]

61. She's deaf to the final bell -- it rang long ago.

In any case, she's deaf to issues of party loyalty and of the importance of beating the GOP in the GE.

[dionysus]

62. sorry, if you can't see she's hurting the party, and just doing this for herself, you're an idiot.

you're one of the nicest hillary supporters here, but please, look at the reality...

[bigtree]

66. calling folks idiots is not a reasonable starting place for a discussion.

It's just wrong, here on this forum.

[dionysus]

101. tree, she's hurting the party, can't you see that?

how do you rationalize that?

[bigtree]

111. I don't think SHE'S hurting the party

these campaigns can be divisive, but it's the voters who've urged this to continue with their support. 16 million of them who supported Hillary. They haven't seemed ready to reconcile, not according to the national polls today. I don't think you can blame Sen. Clinton for that division just because she presumed to aggressively challenge Sen. Obama. in this historically close primary.

[dionysus]

112. we'll just have to disagree then tree.

[Radical Activist]

65. Obama deserves the same respect Bill Clinton was given in -92

along with Gore, Kerry and other nominees in their races. The losers dropped out when it was clear who the nominee was going to be for the sake of the party. Hillary thinks the normal rules don't apply to her or maybe she thinks she owes no respect to Barack Obama. Its disgraceful.

[bigtree]

69. those races weren't anywhere near as close as this one

16 million voters have argued for Hillary Clinton to continue. The Gallup poll today shows voters equally divided between them. I've never seen that before, this late in the contest.

[Radical Activist]

74. The winner now is just as clear as the winner then.

How close it is has no relevance since we know who the winner will be. Clinton has ridden on her name recognition and 16 years in the national spotlight and still couldn't win. She started with more advantages that any nominee not running for re-election in 20 years and she still can't win.

Serious candidates drop out when they have clearly lost. Clinton has lowered herself to the level of a hopeless vanity candidate and she should be treated as such by the party and the media.

[bigtree]

86. oh, I can see you've lowered your opinion of her

. . . but, that opinion is at odds with the 16 million voters who've supported her in this contest.

[Radical Activist]

121. You sound just as delusional as her speech last night.

The fact that she had some votes doesn't change the fact that more people supported her opponent and she lost.

[bigtree]

124. back to the ridicule

how boring

[Radical Activist]

128. No, I actually had a point, unlike your comment that was

completely irrelevant to the discussion and offered no response to my point. How else should I respond to pointless blather meant to distract and change the subject?

Please tell me how the number of people who voted for Hillary is relevant now that she has clearly lost? She got fewer votes and fewer delegates. The fact that she got millions of votes matters no more than if she got 12. The race is over. Are you making an argument or just posting random distractions? Defend your argument if you can.

[bigtree]

129. Obama has not achieved the necessary amount of delegates to nominate him

He needs to get to 2025. Those are the rules. He hasn't 'won' the nomination yet.

[Radical Activist]

131. Neither did Clinton in '92 before everyone else dropped out...

The same with Gore, Kerry, and others. The race was declared over before anyone had won the needed delegates.

Now you're arguing in circles. Tell me why Obama doesn't deserve the same respect and consideration as other party nominees now that we know who the clear winner is. Why is there a new standard for Obama v. Hillary? No one else has had to go through this ordeal of their opponent staying in until the end after the victor was clear.

Why aren't John Edwards and Chris Dodd still in the race since Obama doesn't have 2025? They have an equal shot of winning as Hillary (none) but they had the decency and common sense to drop out.

[bigtree]

133. those candidates were easily able to achieve the necessary amount of delegates before the convention

Obama hasn't been able to do that. That's why he's still challenged to continue in this primary. That and the fact that his opponent feels no need to concede in the face of his inability to achieve the nomination by votes cast alone.

[Radical Activist]

137. They did not receive a majority of the delegates before their opponents dropped out.

This new standard of needing a full majority of delegates has never been applied before. Hillary Clinton can not win the delegate count so you're argument is pointless.
When serious candidates know they lost then they drop out. Hillary has clearly lost and she is no longer acting like a serious candidates. She's a gadfly. An also-ran ego candidate.

[bigtree]

139. sure, the other candidates gave over in the end. So what? Not this time.

Deal with it. Deal with the 16 million votes in favor of Hillary Clinton.

[Radical Activist]

142. Why are the rules different this time?

Why should the standards change so that Hillary gets to hurt the party nominee when its clear she lost, unlike all the other serious candidates who had enough respect for themselves and the party to gracefully step aside? Edwards, Dodd, Biden, Kucinich, Bradley, Tsongas, Gore in '88 and everyone else acted like adults. Everyone except Hillary.

The number of votes or delegates she got doesn't matter because it wasn't enough to win. Its irrelevant now. Hillary is no longer a serious candidate and should be ignored.

[DMorgan]

77. Well, maybe Hillary thinks she doesn't really have to respect Obama because

he's just like Jessie Jackson, (according to Bill), winning primaries in the South.

The real votes that count are the white working voters.

[bigtree]

80. I believe she does 'respect' Sen. Obama

. . . as much as he 'respects' her.

The rest of the race stuff is just hyped nonsense, I think.

[DMorgan]

90. If you believe that Hillary "respects" Obama, then WHY does she

continually say things like "Senator Obama doesn't want you to get a break on gas tax this summer"? (When the bill for the gas tax hasn't even been introduced to Congress)

or " Obama just gave a speech"

Can you tell me how much "respect" that shows?

Obama NEVER insults her, nor does he insult McCain. Hillary PRAISED McCain, and insulted Obama, constantly throughout this campaign!

[bigtree]

93. she disagrees with him politically. That type of criticism's not unusual for a sitting senator

. . . making a political stand against an opponent in a campaign.

[Radical Activist]

123. Yes, it is very unusual.

Its unusual to say things designed to hurt the party nominee in the general election. I didn't see John Edwards, Joe Biden, Dennis Kucinich or Chris Dodd act this way against other Democrats. Only Hillary stooped down to this level.

[bigtree]

127. this has been a tea party

I've slogged through a few of these presidential campaigns.

[Radical Activist]

130. So have I and you're wrong.

I provided examples to support my argument. Why don't you?

I just watched footage of the '60 primary race where Kennedy and Humphrey ALWAYS referred to each other as "My friend Senator..." They spoke about each other with mutual respect despite their disagreements.

How sad compared to Hillary's disgusting behavior. She took the party a new low. Prove me wrong if you can.

[bigtree]

132. no. you want to refight the campaign here on this thread.

And you want to posture as if the Obama campaign has operated without the negativity you accuse the Clinton campaign of. That's extremely myopic, but understandable for partisans in a campaign to view events that way.

[Radical Activist]

135. Another change in topic. Another distraction. Another failure to back up your argument.

You're arguing more and more like a talk radio listener.

You wrote about Hillary's behavior: "That type of criticism's not unusual for a sitting senator"

Back that statement up with some examples or stop making the argument. You're just making excuses for not defending your false assertions.

[bigtree]

138. I won't accept your characterizations of her conduct

So, it's really impossible (and incredibly pointless) to find parallels in history to refute your opinion of her conduct.

Why don't you just take your insulting ridicule of me and bounce? I'm bored with it (and you)

[Radical Activist]

140. But you already did agree with that characterization in post 93.

You just argued that it was normal. Which is it? Yet another attempt to make a broad statement and not back it up.

[DMorgan]

136. To prove your biased point, please use some concrete examples

Of where Obama has insulted Hillary Clinton personally, obstructed, and mischaracterized her positions on the issues, and include a few times where Obama out and out LIED about Hillary's record.

I can easily do that for Hillary against Obama, but you for Obama against Hillary, not so easy!

[bigtree]

141. no. go fight that petty argument somewhere else, with someone else.

You won't get that from me. And, you won't be able to sell the Obama campaign to me as some paragon of virtue.

[DMorgan]

146. In other words, YOU HAVE NO EXAMPLES to PROVE your position!................

OH, and, by the way, insulting the character, past record, and lying about the next Democratic Presidential nominee, REPEATEDLY...is NOT "petty argument".... it's a MAJOR PROBLEM with Clinton's character, and a MAJOR problem for the Democratic Party who has to, (unfortunately) work against all the damage Hillary has already done to Obama!!!

Paragon of virtue............right, Obama himself claims he's not perfect, (or don't you bother to listen to anyone other than Hillary and her lies?)....

You are the coward who claimed Obama was as bad as Clinton about these campaign statements.... I asked you to provide links, you just decided to withdraw and make sure you insulted Obama again as you ran away.

[DMorgan]

134. GREAT POST!

"she disagrees with him politically. That type of criticism's not unusual for a sitting senator" ???


I seldom see fellow Democratic Senators disagreeing openly and insulting each other's life history. Only Hillary has done that.

Hillary's comments I quoted ABOVE are not "disagrees with him politically", they are outright personal attacks upon his character, and background.

I think the big tree is missing the forest of enmity Hillary's comments created, while in support of a woman who cannot win the nomination now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Nice talking points but somehow I don't expect

her to spend the family fortune in the next three weeks.

Mathematically this is done

she needs 75% in the next contexts... you sure that is doable?

Reality is that mathematically this is over....

Barack Obama IS the presumptive nominee. Anything else is spinning and no I don't like either of them

At this point, she stays on... I will have to ask what are her motives? Naked Ambition? Or damaging the Presumptive Candidate?

In fact, I think she is getting ready to step away... and yesterday she gave what sounded like a concession speech, and she said

I WILL WORK FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY

So yes, it is over

Just need to make this official

[bigtree]

78. well, she may well be at the disadvantage you describe, but I think this goes on

. . . to the last contest, to whatever end. That's not the disaster that it's being portrayed as, in my view.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. She has loaned herself 11 million so far

she is not getting the donors she was in the early days... that money flow stopped a while ago

You honestly think she will be allowed by big dog to spend the rest of it on essentially a lost cause?

And the 75% is not my number, but the math

As to the speech... you can googgle it, and read it yourself

But that speech yesterday, when she said those words... is essentially a concession speech

At this point the supers might be doing a well deserved intervention and no... until she sees the light, the campaign will not say it

But it is over... and HE might get the delegates he needs in the next context

[bigtree]

84. so, you think she's conceding. Fine.

but, these final contests will likely go on.

I'll donate today. I'm very proud of her.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. go for it... nobody is stopping you, and in fact that will help her retire a huge debt

but the reality is that Barack Obama IS the presumptive nominee

And when that reality finally hits you I will ask you to do the same thing I will do... vote for the man in November

And no... don't ask anything more.... just vote, not joyfully, wear goggles, mask and hazmat suit if you need to... but four more years of Bush we can't have

And the fact is this has been a hell of a historic campaign

We had a woman, a black and a hispanic running... talk about history

[bigtree]

91. If you read my responses

you would see that you really are fighting a straw man with your ridicule of me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. RIDICULE?

[bigtree]

99. I don't need any lecturing about who to vote for in November

That should be clear from the OP

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Look CHILD... yes at this point you are behaving like one

I am NOT LECTURING. I am ASKING

Now if you cannot see the difference, I think we are done

Perhaps others on this site are correct

And we cannot have CIVILIZED discussions

I will let you to your fantasy that she will become the nominee

Have a good life

Damn silly season..... and cult of personality (for both mind you)

It BLINDS people

[bigtree]

113. you are lecturing

I really don't know who you folks think you are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. I am an American. I am NOT an OBama Supporter, your first free clue

But I am (as far as this election is concerned) a yellow dog... I had NO DOG in this fight, especially after the last two were left, since the candidate and policies I preferred went away a WHILE ago... your second free clue.

NEITHER OF THEM IS THE IDEAL CANDIDATE... NO CANDIDATE EVER IS

I also can put country before party and for the sake of the country I hope YOUR CANDIDATE will too, once the reality finally dawns on her.

So exactly who are you?

In my view a blind partisan

It's over

The math (and the funds) is crystal clear

And yes, I take it you will take anything stating this reality as a lecture and an attack on your candidate

Like you accuse the other side, this is classic cult of personality... and yes, many Obama supporters are also guilty of it

I also doubt you will read this far.

[madwivoter]

72. Nope. Thanks for asking though.

[seabeyond]

85. the bell rung. not "waiting" for it to ring. the bitch is she wont get up and shake hands with the

winner, like a good loser should. having been in competitive sports, not to acknowledge the loss, deny it it, refuse it is shameful.

[bigtree]

89. you know that there are remaining contests and that Sen. Obama hasn't reached 2025 delegates

and, we don't nominate our candidates based on polls and pundits.

[John Q. Citizen]

98. Yep. it's clear that she's in it to pay herself back the 11 million dollars. It's the Clinton way.

There won't be a decision on FL and MI until Sen. Clinton has raised at least 11 million.

The party just needs to hold it's horses and wait until Sen. Clinton has raised 11 million dollars. Simple.

[bigtree]

100. what a crock

[John Q. Citizen]

102. If the primary ends, Sen Clinton and her husband are out 11 million bucks. You

don't think that would be a consideration?

If it weren't she would have just given her campaign the money, not loaned it the money.

No, she's isn't going anywhere until someone gives her 11 million dollars.

[rodeodance]

115. If you have not donated to her campaign. keep the crap out of it. Just crying to cry--that is you!!

[bigtree]

118. hey rodeo

good to hear from you

[rodeodance]

147. nice post bigtree. good on you

[John Q. Citizen]

155. I feel so sorry for poor Sen. Clinton... I bet that 11,000,000 keeps her up worried at night.

Maybe Barack can cover it for her. He's able to actually get things done and make things happen.

[The Stranger]

109. Oh fucking bullshit. This is over and you know it.

We're wasting our time and money and helping the GOP.

[bigtree]

117. well, I think there will be contests in the remaining states and there will then be a decision

. . . for the extra delegates to make.

Doesn't look 'fucking over' to me.

[thoughtcrime1984]

114. I'm not upset, as long as she lays off the attacks

Having an aggressive campaign in all 50 states is very valuable to the GE. I am glad that Obama now has massive grassroots support established virtually everywhere, and that many, many voters have been able to see him speak, hear his views, and even shake his hand or get an autograph. This exposure under the pretext of a closely contested primary, has sharpened Obama's message, and the multitude of attacks he has weathered have fallen under the old saying "what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger". I would appreciate it, however, if Hillary now stops trying to injure his chances, and runs a clean campaign the rest of the way, one that frames her positives, and also praises her competitor. The nation is coming to the conclusion that Obama will be the nominee, so we continue on through June 3, but that should and will be the end of the line. All of the voices will have been heard, and the presumptive nominee status can be bestowed upon Sen. Barack Obama.

[jsmirman]

116. The whole problem with your post is the "who knows" part. We all know. You know.

She knows.

There is no validity to tossing in a flippant "who knows?"

Everybody knows.

It's over. The absolute uselessness of her carrying on yields a simple answer. It's time for her to pack it in.

[bigtree]

119. well, I can make a pretty good guess after yesterday's contest

and, I don't think many of the folks in the remaining states think it's 'useless' for her to continue to the finish.

[jsmirman]

125. Your two sentences contradict each other. And whoopee, people want to feel important

who doesn't?

But there are more people nationally than the people in those states who happen to want to see the dog and pony show who think it is counter-productive for her to continue.

She can't win. It is over. There is no actual purpose to a candidacy for President that can't result in being President, unless there is some pressing issue that you and you alone are advancing. She has no cause that is her own except "Hillary," unless you count her gas tax holiday.

[bigtree]

126. how would you know what her supporters voted for?

You don't seem to care in the least about what her voters want. Good luck with that.

[rodeodance]

149. I seldom respond to posters who are so cheap they do not donate to DU,

[rodeodance]

148. I wish there was a rule that to smear Hillary you have to quit being CHEAP and donate to DU

[The Stranger]

154. The "folks in the remaining states" voting for her are ldittoheads.

[OKthatsIT]

120. This reminds me of Kerry..walking away with $10 million

$10 million he got at the end of the election. Everyone knew he would need money for contesting the vote in Ohio. AND, he need money for investigators.

He just walk off...left the country. It wasn't until everyone figured out what he was doing, that the DNC made him address it.

Hillary's taking advantage of her humiliated supporters. If she invests in herself, that's her perogative, but don't expect everyone to pay $6 million for a last minute decision.

[bigtree]

122. I'm not humiliated in the least

and I contributed today.

[Buzz Clik]

144. Nope. I'm just tired of her continual blows below the belt.

She also has vowed to continue the fight after the bell. If she does that, her political aspirations are OVER.

[GihrenZabi]

145. Last night WAS the final bell!

That's why realists are so pissed off. It's already over! She's the walking dead, just waiting for someone to put her down for good.

Better sooner rather than later...zombies just make more zombies...

[nomaco-10]

156. I JUST WANNA SCREAM..........

Don't you get what a disingenuous candidate she's been! Don't you remember the race baiting, the gas tax pandering, the disenfranchisement of florida and michigan voters were all barack obama's fault?

It's all unforgivable at this point in my opinion.

[Jamastiene]

157. You know what? You are right.

NO ONE can call this primary season "just another primary season." It HAS been exciting.

[dcindian]

158. Not upset just sadden to see a democrat just give her self up to the media as a crazy person.

Oh the media will jump ship from the Hillary camp pretty soon. She will be known as the lunatic that is so wrapped up in herself that she does not see reality for what it is.

It will not be pretty. You think this pile on is bad just wait and see it every day on every channel. You and the rest of the loons according to the media just can't figure out what is real and what is not. For what it's worth I feel so sorry for what you have coming.