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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:38 PM
Original message
Is Kerry Moving to the Right?
In the drafting of the Democratic platform, and addressing conservative voters, Kerry seems to be moving toward the right, pledging to maintain a force in Iraq, refusing to condemn Bush for starting the war there.

I find myself wondering, could he LOSE votes with this strategy as he tries to woo the swing voters?

Many African-Americans I know are tired of feeling ignored. Democrats are so sure that our vote is in the bag, that you rarely see any meaningful efforts to lock down our vote. I'm beginning to think that liberals may get ignored this year as well. True, Kerry is the "liberal" candidate, as evidenced by his voting record. But I sense he will shape a more moderate platform as we move toward November.

From time to time, I hear disgruntled DU'ers refusing to vote for "the better of two evils".

How should Kerry strike a balance? How can he win more votes to the right without losing the liberals? Or will he take the liberal vote for granted?
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Look, I am not happy with the "centrist" move...But I don't know
what else to do. We want bush out.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. I agree. I feel we need to get Bush out to save democracy ..
as we know it. Perhaps he will woo voters and sound centrist.

But the man is not only well-educated, a skilled legal debater (meaning that he can see both sides of an argument, and articulate them), but he has a history of being willing to listen to various groups and viewpoints.

He has studies not only various kinds of literature, but music as well. He can appreciate different likes, dislikes and viewpoints.

He is an independent thinker.

And the same for John Edwards, and both of the candidates' spouses.

From what I have seen, Bush is not any of these things.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
67. Every candidate runs from the center
After all, most of the American electorate is in the center, not to the far right or far left. Bush ran from the center. And immediately moved to the far right as soon as he got elected. This is what every candidate does. Runs from the center, and moves back to their own political bend as soon as they get into office.

Kerry moves to the center when it comes to the issues that effect the average voter. But he still sticks to the very far left when discussing how to deal with the inequities in the tax code that favor large corporations and those who move thie corporations overseas to avoid taxes. He is as far to the left as ever, and states it in his campaign speeches, becasue the average voter respondps positively when a cnadidate says its the turn of the big corporate entities to bear the burden of taxation, and give the average working guy who has been carrying the weight of taxation for these guys to get a break. Thats as close to a socialist statement you will hear in the good old U.S.A. and it is obviously striking a chord with the voters, because when Bush attacks it, kerry's polls just get better.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. yes he is moving to the center as every politician in an election does
this is normal behavior and to be expected.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Any liberal or minority who doesn't get out and vote for Kerry is a moron.
Whatever he has to do to pick up additional votes, while all of us might not like it, is just politics as usual.

But there's one key point that none of us should ever forget. BushCo has got to be defeated NO MATTER WHAT. FOUR MORE YEARS OF THESE NAZI BASTARD'S AND DEMOCRACY IS DEAD.

Sorry to be bombastic, but remember our goal. Anybody but Bush.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Any liberal....
Wow, I didn't know we OWED kerry our vote.

Kerry aught to have a stronger campaign centerpiece than "I'm not bush."
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Yes, he ought. Fortunately for us, HE DOES.
Perhaps you haven't been paying attention?
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. ears open
Haven't heard it...
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Don't expect me to deliver it to you if you are too lazy to...
...type in www.johnkerry.com

It's all right there.

Perhaps you negativity toward Kerry is directly proportional to your lack of motivation to even be bothered to do that little bit?

Jesus Christ. No wonder we are having problems retaking power in this country if your apathy is indicative of the average democrat!
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I've read the rhetoric...
Boring, indeed, but most political PC mantra is.

My apathy?, that's interesting since I post fervently here at DU.

Personal attacks - the way of the attacker who's not supported by the facts.

My negativity toward John Kerry is in direct proportion to the number of troops Kerry agreed should go over to Iraq and die.

Coincidentally my negativity toward John Kerry is in direct proportion to the personal liberties threatened by the patriot act that he voted for.

I don't hate Kerry or even his political stances, but supporters who attack me as a person could certainly make me move in that direction...
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. That war vote is also a big issue for me
But the dice have been rolled, now, we have only two viable candidates, and if you are still having problems choosing which one to vote for, then PT Barnum was right.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. nothing is ever that black and white. n/t
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. good luck casting grey votes
.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. good luck in your colorless world
filled with the all sorts of the lessers of two evils.

Make sure you don't even think about election reform while you're at it. Make sure that you comply with everything the democrats ask you to do as if the DLC replaced God.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Do try to place your...bait...on more tempting hook.
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 05:24 PM by liberal_veteran
You might even catch a few fish.

I, however, will not even nibble.


Now, if you'll excuse, I find myself in the mood to pull out of my old Foreigner albums. I think you can guess which one it is.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. see...
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. It's not a personal attack to expect people to educate themselves.
When a message and platform and candidates beliefs are right there.

Infants require their parents to chew their food for them. We are adults here and you don't require MY spin on Kerry's message and platform when you can get it from the source.

If you believe that's a personal attack, then BY ALL MEANS, hit alert and let the mods decide if it was.

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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Personal attacks
"Too lazy," "you're apathy" - Not personal?? Define personal then. and I am not going to tattle...

I DON'T WANT YOU TOO REPEAT KERRY'S CRAP TOO ME!!!

Ok, Pay attention - I said I don't think it's right that the center of kerry and those that support him have based their enthusiasm on the fact that kerry is not bush. Since that is the center of his appeal, in henceforth is a part of all of his rhetoric.

You said he has a different center of his appeal. I've read the platform planks, and I don't think he does, but by all means, tell me what is the center on which all his planks come off of that create excitement and appeal around Kerry. What, besides his not being bush, is his central rallying point?
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. You are entitled to your opinion. Far be it from me to waste my time with
....someone who looks at both these candidates for office and comes to the conclusion that black and white are the same.

I have a low tolerance for playing the role of Don Quixote and choose my battles a bit more.....wisely, shall we say.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. a post again devoid of political fact
I'll be here, waiting for a decent rebuttal that doesn't include name-calling.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. You'll be waiting awhile. You have the tools to educate yourself.
So why should I do the work for you?

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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is like a bad joke.

I have repeatedly told you I am not looking for the text blocks on johnkerry.com.

I am done with you, you're obviously not even reading my posts. wtf?

This will be my last post in this thread.
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. ROTFLMAO!
Perhaps you should understand that of late hearing the same tired buzzphrases from certain corners about "Kerry having no platform" or "Kerry's only platform is that he's not Bush" tends to become slightly nauseating after awhile.

It's not true that Kerry and Bush are the same, it's not true that Kerry's only strength is not being Bush, we both know that, so why go round and round about it?

What purpose is to be served by doing so?
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Okay, HYPOTHETICAL...
Let's say Kerry was running against Colin Powell, and couldn't use the "I'm not Bush" platform. Would could he say?

He's a Washington insider who has held his own "pragmatic liberal" voice in the Senate for 20 years. He knows how to pick his battles, when to side with the majority and how to stand alone as the voice of American conscience. He is a seasoned politician who has made important decisions on the major issues facing America ever since the height of Reaganomics. He has a long-standing voting record on supporting the common man, from civil liberties issues, to labor, to women's rights.

He believes in expanding social programs to benefit all Americans, not just big business. And yet he has the military experience to lead the nation in times of security crisis.

Kerry is running on the pragmatic progressive platform.

Hope that sums it up in a neat and tidy package for ya. ;-)
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I wish that the message you give
were the message espoused by both the kerry camp and its supporters here at DU.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
68. From the things I've read here....
To expect the DU camp to have a message that attracts the swing vote is ludicrous. This is the DEMOCRATIC underground. These are the people who are already convinced, foaming at the mouth, democrats.

Heck, I'm one of them. ;-)

I just happen to surf in enough "swing vote" forums (and live in a Bush state) that I know that having a knee jerk anti-Bush sentiment doesn't cut it with the people I want to have an effect on.

As for the Kerry camp... frankly, I think they haven't gotten it together yet. The "pragmatic progressive" may not go over with middle-America, even if that's his voting record, so Kerry is going to need to move center. Perhaps after the convention, we'll see the unveiling of a powerful message that we can all rally around instead of the "He's not Bush" message.

I think the thing that saddens me most is that so many people here are convinced that if someone likes Bush, they'll vote for him. Heck, we don't have to convince these people to vote for Kerry. We win if we just convince them to STAY HOME! If somehow we could respect the fact that they LIKE the man, and help them see that he's not doing as good a job as we need him to, then we can make a difference... at least that's what I believe...
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. it's true African Americans must trust where trust is continually betrayed
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:06 PM by nofurylike
if any of us are to survive the near future. at this point, Kerry winning is as much your only hope as it is everyone's.

you may have no rational reason to trust any white politician (or, perhaps, person), but i ask you to please venture this leap of faith. there's a lot of reactionary regression trashing this country - ugly! horrifying to witness! - but there are also tens of millions who are getting the reality, and fighting with all our lives for repair and justice.

Kerry in NYTimes article yesterday:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/19/politics/campaign/19V...

same article, but not needing to register:
http://www.iht.com/articles/530017.html

"A million African-Americans disenfranchised in the last election," he said at the N.A.A.C.P. convention in Philadelphia on Thursday. "Well, we're not just going to sit there and wait for it to happen. On Election Day in your cities, my campaign will provide teams of election observers and lawyers to monitor elections, and we will enforce the law."


peace!
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Ya know
at least the radical right wingers were smart enough to vote for Bush as he ran a centrist-sounding campaign in 2000. They let him do what he needed to do to hornswaggle enough people into voting for him that he could steal it. But they voted for him anyway, knowing enough about him and Cheney that they knew his real agenda.

You and I are in the same boat. We know enough about Kerry's voting record to trust him to do what he needs to do to get elected. You can only either help Bush or help Kerry. What's it going to be? Save your frustration for later, when (Zeus willing) Kerry is fighting a hostile House, a hostile judiciary, a hostile media, and the hostile rightwing. Then you can pile on him, too, and won't you be happy then?
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Excellent point
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. "I'm not bush" sounds pretty good to me. In fact it makes me down
right giddy.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. "I'm Not Bush Is More Than Enough For Me"
NT
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Let Kerry do what he needs to do to win this
He's impressed me with his smarts and strategy so far.

Also, read this, it will re-focus you: http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_07_18_digbysblog_ar...
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Are we going to have to go through this every day until the election?
Politicians always try to appeal to the WIDEST possible base during the final months of an election.

That's how they win.

This is just politics.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. this crap has gotten exasperating
I agree with kerry on little, but again he's not bush...

I don't know what to do! I live in Indiana, so I don't have to worry about being sick with myself for voting for the lesser of two evils, but I certainly can't support Kerry.

If I were in a leadership role in the african-american community this is what I would do:

Work my rear off to get out the vote for Kerry.

Then when he's elected, give Kerry his two weeks notice. Tell him he's got two weeks to start working with leaders of the A-A community or your going to start making noise yourself. Don't let the "I'm glad Bush is out" wave let you give Kerry a free ride. Give him hell during his time in office if he lets you down like democrats of recent. Let him know early on he'll have to work hard for your vote in 2008.

I plan on being a leader of the liberal movement by 2008 and I'll be doing that exactly to kerry if he continues his right-courtship.
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I Will Be Happy To March Against The Policies of President Kerry
but he has to be President first.

Pres candidates always run to the center. . .lets get him elected, see how he does, and hold him accountable if he needs it.

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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. agreed!
But again, I live in indiana, so my limited voice and vote will do about zilch in this go 'round.

Look for me in 08 in one way or another. And If centrist, middle of the road pandering-kerry leads the dems in 08, look for me playing for a differnt team. I don't know who, but I'd guess I'd have a Green uniform on...
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. If only you would be so lucky as to have Kerry running for re-election
in 08. If only we could all be so lucky.


Fingers crossed.
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mstrsplinter326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. It's not going to be about luck
If people feel Kerry has the conviction to be anything like the democrats of the first half of the 20th century, then he will get out the vote in record numbers.

If people feel Kerry is going to make things right (not better or waterdown bush policies, but RIGHT) then he will win.

If not, well, good luck dealing with four more years of Bush.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
55. you can do a lot.
maybe register in Ohio, there's time.

you write very well, so maybe write some op/eds, editors about the very issues you're writing of here, including the NECESSITY of a Kerry win - as an African-American TO so many millions with the same questions.
that is how to educate in close swing-states. we NEED you there!!

this is ALL ABOUT JUSTICE AND EQUALITY! that is THE very crux of the ideological difference between * and Kerry!


peace!
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Pres Candidates ALWAYS run to the center - Bush ran as a moderate
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 03:53 PM by emulatorloo
no nation building, compassionate etc etc etc.

And yet he has been a real delight for neo-cons and religious fundies and right wingers.

While I am not sure I buy your argument that Kerry and Dems are ignoring African-Americans, Liberals etc, I know for sure the BUSH WILL IGNORE THEM AFTER THE ELECTION if he is returned to power.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. There it is . . .
you've hit the nail on the head. Purists get upset that their candidate is taking their votes for granted. Maybe Kerry is assuming you have a brain in your god-damned head and want to get rid of Bush, and will be smart enough to vote appropriately.

Rightwingers were smart enough to vote for Bush with all of his shucking and jiving about "compassion". They weren't fooled, and neither should we be.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Exactly, Plum. We have to assume our votes are going to be
"taken for granted" in the runup to the election. Anybody who actually votes for Bush after the past 4 years is an irredeemable idiot or simply has not been paying attention (in a coma, on Mars, etc.), and we have this one chance to kick him out. It is the only way to stop a tyranny that is standing right in front of us.

Sadly, it may be that Kerry cannot stop it, or that he may like the idea of corporate tyranny (but not govt tyranny) and we may have to fight him on those points, but we ALL know what Bush is about.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. It is a hard balance to strike
but Kerry's choice of Edwards has really galvanized the Dems, allowing him to woo swing voters (where Edwards also is an asset). It also helps that Bush has moved even further to the right, leaving Kerry virtually no competition for the center.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Very good points.
n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Just Win Baby
It's not how you run your campaign. It's if you win or lose...


Kerry should address the concerns of African Americans as he should address the concerns of all Americans.


What interests is he not addressing....
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. An interesting question...
I've been taking a poll on Black Voices in order to try to get a good answer to the "What do black people want?" question. 67% say jobs/economy. But what they mean may not be the same as "mainstream America". Typically, black unemployment decreases lag behind the rest of the country's. Even though it may seem as though we've come out of our slump, there are still too many African-Americans who are unemployed. So when Kerry speaks of addressing unemployment, African-Americans may want to know if he's going to address this gap.

Another thing that African-Americans tend to care about (15%) is racial issues. This includes unfair sentencing practices, police brutality and the shoot-first" mentality, jail overcrowding, I mentioned the discrepancies in unemployment numbers, first fired - last hired employment practices, ethnic discrimination in hiring and housing, erosion of Affirmative Action practices and difficulties in trying EEO cases.... there's certainly a lot of concern about what happened in Florida in 2000, but also in how the CBC's concerns about voter disenfranchisement were not addressed in congress.

The African-American conservatives (some of whom will vote for Bush) care about "moral/pro-family" issues. They consider homosexuality to be an abomination and abortion to be murder. Many believe that there are unfair adoption laws that prejudicially move black babies into white homes because of income and age disparities. They would prefer to see adoption laws that favored relatives of the child, even those with flawed backgrounds, instead of putting the child into the hands of pristine strangers. Many want to see a president with strong moral fiber.

11% considered homeland security to be a major issue. Many of these folks are also moving toward the Bush camp; some associate Democrats with decreased defense spending.

I heard about the ads run by the Kerry campaign. They gave the impression that African-Americans care about the same things that everyone else does, and that an "American" solution will somehow miraculously impact them proportionately. But it never works that way. So unless Kerry shows publically that he recognizes the discrepancies and gaps that leave African-Americans disenfranchized, he will be considered as not "our" Presidential candidate.

I'll attempt to dig up more than rhetoric if you want more factual information.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. If That's The African American Agenda I Embrace It
and am sure Kerry does too..
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. excellent clarification, thank you, qwlauren35.
he addresses all of these crucial issues and questions on his site.

you address politics and issues so very well! please write to Kerry and team about all of this! call them on EVERYTHING!!

http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/contact.php?sendto=1

they really do listen and they really do care. and they really do know we have a long, long way to go to justice and equality.

we may not deserve your help understanding and growing, but please know we want to grow to deserving it.


peace!

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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
65. but he HAS ?
he has talked specifically about how the rates of unemployment is much higher among african americans. not just overall but he knows the numbers by individual areas and ages also. he has talked about the issues you mention.

anytime something is posted on du about what kerry said or his plans the post just drops down without any responses and then someone comes on to ask why kerry isn't doing this or that when he has.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. Please don't be offended...
I'm not trying to say Kerry hasn't spoken on these issues. It's just that, to me, they seem buried and I have trouble finding this info. And it didn't seem to be in the ad transcript that I read.

I keep hearing how I'm supposed to dig for this stuff. Frankly, that's bogus. The average voter doesn't dig for data. The average voter doesn't peruse websites. The average voter isn't going to make that kind of effort.

So, unless the message gets to the average voter, some of them are going to STAY AT HOME. I think we're in agreement that we don't want that to happen.

So! Why don't you make it easier for me - if you've seen the info, hand me the link. And I'll hand the message to others.

FYI... you know those "Calling Deaniacs" and "Help me Like Kerry" threads I posted? Well, the link I got from one person was so helpful that I re-wrote it and handed it to my mother, who handed it to someone else, who is going to try to get it published in a major African-American newsletter.

Bottom line (i.e. I lost my train of thought because I had to do real work for a change...) - please work WITH us, and stop taking our skepticism so bloody personally! It's fine to respond with knowledge, but responding emotionally doesn't help *our* candidate.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since Only Eighteen Percent Of Americans Identify Themselves As Liberals
I pray he moves to the center....


If I wanted a true liberal alternative to Kerry I'd write in myself as a vote for myself would have as much positive impact as a vote for the other tertiary parties.....
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'm confused...
In what way is "pledging to maintain a force in Iraq" moving to the right? It's the reality on the ground - we broke it, we have to fix it - I don't see that position as some kind of dividing point between liberal and conservative.

And where exactly do you get that Kerry has refused to condemn Bush for starting the war? Kerry has criticized Bush numerous times on the subject of Iraq.

Kerry WILL lose votes if persons like yourself continue to misrepresent his positions.


Any liberal or minority Democratic voter who turns away from the Democratic party in this election is nothing but a goddam fool and deserves four more years of Bush. Period. If people aren't smart enough to vote in their own best self interest, then there really is no hope.
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CaTeacher Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. I do think in a lot of substantial ways
Kerry is very close to the middle. He is pandering to the swing voters-I think this is a mistake. To me this election is going to be all about getting the base motivated and turning out to vote.

But hey--it is his campaign to run not mine.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. The American people are " very close to the middle"
A lot of people on this board seem to think that the "cut and run" anti - war crowd is the Democratic base - and they're wrong. They could be part of the base - but after the 2000 election, why should the Democrats pander to the far left? Fool me once, etc. Loyalty gets rewarded in politics, not extortion.

Swing voters decide elections, and if a certain group of voters decides to go 3rd party or sit this one out... we'll get what we got four years ago - GW Bush.

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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Most polls say otherwise.
If you look at opinion polls and thinktank research, you will find that most Americans lean leftward, and definately further left than the so-called "middle".

For example, most Americans are very suspicious of big corporations, and believe more should be done to curb them. Most Americans are also against the privatization of social security. Most Americans also believe the government should play a role in making society more fair for those who are less well-off. Most Americans also believe that if you work a 40+ hour workweek, you should be able to afford a place to live and food and clothing for your family (something that sounds radical in today's political climate).

Currently, just over 50% of Democrats oppose the ongoing occupation of Iraq, and 40% of Americans feel the same way. Over 70% of Iraqis want the occupation to end, regardless of what happens afterward. And those numbers get bigger every day that the occupation drags on.

Just because "we broke it" does NOT mean that we should be the ones to "fix it". That's like letting the arsonist who burned your house down have the choice of who rebuilds it, and how it's rebuilt.

Let the PEOPLE of Iraq determine who should rebuild their country-- NOT the US, and not foreign corporate interests, who are hellbent on privatising all of Iraq's resources for their own benefit. As long as the US controls Iraq's economy and government, we will be seen as an occupying army, and resistance will continue.



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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Polls and thinktanks may say that Americans lean leftward
but they don't necessarily vote that way. Not that I disagree with that - I could give you tons of my own anecdotal evidence from Republicans I have known over the years - where, when closely questioned, they actually hold pretty liberal beliefs - and still vote Republican. And who defines the middle in this sort of thing? It's often a pretty arbitrary definition.

I've seen no polling showing that 50% of Democrats and 40% of Americans want to cut and run in Iraq. Opposition to the invasion doesn't always translate into "cut and run". There are certainly better ways than BushCo's mishandling of the situation to proceed in Iraq without cutting and running.

It's not just about an "occupation". Iraq does have enemies and since we've destroyed their ability to defend themselves, we're obliged to defend them until an army can be raised and trained to the point that Iraq can maintain it's sovereignty in the face of outside aggression.
OK - you'll say that we're the aggressors - but a power vacuum would be worse - especially if filled by forces inimical to the US and the interests of the developed world.

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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
38. Who cares about the campaign?
LBJ was an unprincipled pro-segregation panderer, until he got into the WH and became the best ally for blacks in American presidential history.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. LBJ Was A Product Of His Region And His Era
but he had an empathy for the poor born out of the fact that he taught poor Mexicans kids in the backwaters of Texas when he was a teacher.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
44. we are "granted." yes, qwlauren35?
these are extremely crucial questions and issues, absolutely.

Kerry is actually amazing me, especially in his crucial outreach to African Americans, Hispanics...

OF COURSE more MUST be done, but he and his team are reponsive on every issue. i highly recommend anyone go to his site and read his beliefs and actions on all issues.


Kerry Building Legal Network for Vote Fights
By DAVID M. HALBFINGER
Published: July 19, 2004
NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/19/politics/campaign/19V...

same article, but not needing to register:
http://www.iht.com/articles/530017.html

Mindful of the election problems in Florida four years ago, aides to Senator John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, say his campaign is putting together a far more intricate set of legal safeguards than any presidential candidate before him to monitor the election.

Aides to Mr. Kerry say the campaign is taking the unusual step of setting up a nationwide legal network under its own umbrella, rather than relying, as in the past, on lawyers associated with state Democratic parties. The aides said they were recruiting people based on their skills as litigators and election lawyers, rather than rewarding political connections or big donors.
-snip-
"A million African-Americans disenfranchised in the last election," he said at the N.A.A.C.P. convention in Philadelphia on Thursday. "Well, we're not just going to sit there and wait for it to happen. On Election Day in your cities, my campaign will provide teams of election observers and lawyers to monitor elections, and we will enforce the law."
-snip-
***

PLEASE, everyone, write your concerns and criticisms to him and his team. they really do listen and you will see an effect come of your writing.
Kerry's comment page:
http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/contact.php?sendto=1


peace!
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
46. PROGRESSIVE / LIBERAL
Sorry if this seems lazy but can someone explain the difference between progressive and liberal views as it relates to the Kerry-Edwards ticket.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
48. Yes.
As many will point out, it's all about "running to the center." Everybody does it. Bush did in 2000. etc. etc. etc.

I have a couple of issues with the "run to the center:"

1. Our nation has shifted so far to the right that "the center" is where the right used to be, in my lifetime.

2. I knew * was full of shit. I knew he wasn't a "compassionate conservative." I knew his "run to the center" in 2000 was a blatant pack of lies. That's fine, but it doesn't excuse Democrats, in this Democrat's opinion. It's like the kid on the playground whining that "everybody else does it," or that "he did it first." A refusal to be accountable for your own actions or words; a willingness to blame others. I expect better from my own party, and my own candidate.

3. To me, "running to the center" is a euphemism for "lying to get votes." I expect truth from my candidate. It's a given that I'm not going to agree with everything a candidate says or does or promises. But I think he or she has a moral obligation to tell me the truth, and then allow me to make my choice. When I know you are lying to me, respect, trust, and support flies out the window.

Give me the truth. If I don't like it, I'll deal. But don't lie to me and then act like it's "business as usual." I'm either supposed to discern the actual truth within the lies, and deal with it, or I'm supposed to trust that a candidate is just lying and will really do something different once elected. No thanks.

I think Kerry should tell us where he really stands. And where ever that is, it should be consistent. Let us know what we can count on him for, and what we can't count on him for. Really. And point out the vast difference between a candidate who deals with honesty and integrity and the current resident. Whether you agree with the platform or the plans or not, the choice between integrity and GWB is clear-cut.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. If Kerry Told The Nation Where He Stands He'd Never Get Elected
And the same thing goes for the Simian In Chief...


Whether you are in business or government you need to tailor your message to attract as broad a market as possible....
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Unfortunately, we'll never know that, the way things are going
First and foremost, voters appreciate honesty above all else in their candidates, oftentimes more so than their party affiliation. That was the main reason why Repubs voted for Wellstone, why Jesse Ventura became governor, and why moderates and liberals in AZ have voted for John McCain. It was also the reason why Ross Perot had such a groundswell in 1992 (where he actually led both Clinton and BushI at one time): he was NOT afraid to tell the truth, and stuck by what he said. He didn't pander to a specific audience, but just laid bare the facts and where he stood.

Believe it or not, the non-political activist voters are more motivated by personal traits than they are issues in most elections. They want to vote for an honest, forthright candidate who's not afraid to take a stand and hold it, irregardless of what it is.

So far, John Kerry's not doing a good job at this. He's catered (some would say sucked up) to every audience he's been put in front of, even contradicting himself many times on the campaign trail. His half-@$$ed explanations of his IWR vote have convinced nobody. His flip-flops on trade have inspired nothing but apathy.

People hate politicians, but they know they're a necessary evil, and will therefore vote for the most un-politicianly candidate available.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I Suspect Kerry Like Me
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 07:19 PM by DemocratSinceBirth
is pro decriminalization of drugs and prostitution...


A candidate could never be elected nationwide on that platform...








on edit- and pro gay marriage without all the stupid qualifiers...
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #58
66. You'd actually be suprised
A majority of the population would have no problems legalizing marijuana, for example. The only problem is neither party will touch it (or legalized prostitution, or an end to the pointless "drug war") because they are TOO AFRAID of "offending" some vocal/rich faction or another.

Both the positions you outlined are favored by many in BOTH parties-- the problem is, the power structure of the party is focused on "getting elected" instead of making sane and rational laws.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Oh. The business model.
I'm not a fan of the business model. Unless you are talking small, independently owned and operated businesses. Kerry has my vote regardless of whether or not he tells me where he stands. But that's not a function of anything he has done, or has not done. It is a simple decision. No more Bush Inc..

I'm a person, not a market. Kerry is a man, not a product. It is the man that would generate trust and support. My trust and support are given to people who are honest, open, and consistent. Come to think of it, my support is given to businesses who are honest, open, consistent, and produce a quality product. Lying about the product, the price, or the warranty is not going to prompt me to spend my $$$ there.
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TeacherCreature Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
62. YES
and it is not a good strategy
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
63. When you consider how far to the left Kerry really is . . .
a modest shift to the right during the campaing is inevitable. Kerry is one of the most liberal Democrats in the Senate. The fact the DLC is saying nice things about him and his running mate is proof not of his centrist credentials (which are meager at best), but rather that (contrary to the bogus charges hurled by all the closet socialists on DU) the DLC is run by partisan Democrats.

Unfortunately, some DU'ers will never be satisfied unless the Democrats nominate someone who is so left-wing that he doesn't stand a snowball's chance of getting elected.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #63
72. Ouch...
There is a lot of truth in what you say...
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. a more liberal record than Kennedy as a matter of fact
Yet Kennedy is revered by many, and Kerry not so, I for one think many people though they say they are about issues are really attracted to personality more so. Kerry has a lifetime record of 4 from the ACU, 90 from the AFL-CIO, 96 from the LCV, 95 from ADA, he's been the senate's most liberal dem 5 times too.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
64. Hogwash!
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 08:41 PM by zulchzulu
Kerry is refusing to condemn Bush for going to Iraq?

Bullshit!

He's not for cutting and running and leaving Iraq behind a blown up country with an infrastructure that we blew up and a humanitarian disaster that would ensue. Let alone give a nice message to OBL and the World that we only blow up countries and then leave them behind... It's a little more complicated than simply "pulling out the troops". Kerry would get the UN back in and get our alienated allies into efforts to heal Iraq after Bush's careless and unneeded war.

If Gore (or Kerry) were president, we would not be in the stupid situation we are in with Iraq right now. That's a little message to those that believed St. Ralph that there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but you may want to check the legitimacy of the source.

As for Kerry "ignoring African-Americans", why does Kerry have a 100% rating with the NAACP? Is that an indication of ignoring issues? Should it be 200%? 600%? What?

Don't be lazy. Learn about Kerry's issues. He rocks.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #64
74. Hmmm....
on the NAACP...

Please realize that there are MANY, MANY black people who are DISGUSTED with the NAACP these days. 40 years ago, it was a venerable and respected organization. Today, many think that it has become a liberal Democratic mouthpiece, far to the left of the thinking of many African-Americans.

So a 100% rating with the NAACP doesn't mean that much to a lot of folks.

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. but Kerry is condemned for being too "centrist"
Yet he manages to get high ratings and support from liberal orgs.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
69. No, he's not moving to the right. He has maintained the same position
on the IWR from the start.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
71. you see his speech to the NAACP?
I personally thought it was good.
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