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digno dave Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:26 AM
Original message
Just saw Bush ad that should have us worried
It's the new "Family values" ad.
It mentions that Kerry voted against a bill that would force "teenagers" (under 18 i suppose) to notify parents if they were to have an abortion.
It also mentions that Kerry supported legislation that would allow schools to pass out the morning after pill w/o parent notification.

Is this true?
If so, this WILL NOT appeal to independent/middle class people. Parents already think they are losing control and influence over their children. Kerry's position on these issues only seems to reinforce that fear.

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. I hope it IS true...
If a girl was raped by her father, and she got pregnant... do we really want to force her to ask permission to the rapist?
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Many rapes are
within the family. One would be amazed. Or mother's live-in boyfriend.
I know of several cases of girl child being molested by family members.
DNA should be analyzed from all abortions of young girls and prosecution should ensue. And even DNA from baby if girl decides not to abort.
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murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Parental notification is a truly sick law.
I saw a film by Planned Parenthood about parental notification.

It featured the parents of a 17 year old girl who had died of an illegal abortion. She could not find a judge to overturn the parental notification in time, and she went to a butcher.

Yes, there are still plenty of illegal abortionists out there, and they thrive on young girls in parental notification states, and in states where there are few providers for women of any age.

The sad thing in this case was that her parents would have supported her decision, but she was afraid to tell them.

I think she was in Kansas, but the film talked about some areas that have few judges who will rule in a girl's favor. Duluth MN has only two judges who will listen fairly. If a judge personally opposes abortion, he or she will always rule against the girl.

Some girls don't even know they have the right to talk to a judge. Many girls can't talk to their families, because they victims of family sexual abuse. And others risk their lives by telling their families.

Good for Kerry if he did this. But somehow, I think it is only part of the story. He does oppose abortion personally, but I am sure there had to be more to this law.

When was this? And what is this crap about morniing after pills? They are only available by prescription!
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. In the worst cases, yes
But we can't pretend that the majority of teen pregnancies are caused by parents.

And they always have the "trump card". My children need my written permission to take an Advil in school, but they can have surgery (as long as it's the right surgery) without me even knowing about it.

Yes, I know there is a response. But it just doesn't sell very well.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
55. In the case you describe, a judge
most likely wouldn't rule in the girl's favor.

A judge would tell the minor that she has fine supportive parents, and she needs to go home and tell them what happened. Part of being a responsible individual is fessing up when you do something wrong.

The judicial bypass is not for minors who are afraid to disappoint their parents. It's for minors who have a legitimate fear of abuse. That didn't sound like the case you described.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. please delete eom
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 10:19 AM by Monte Carlo
s
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
45. My grandma worked for the state of Utah....
As a social worker and she was amazed at how many kids she had to take out of their homes because their family was raping 'em.

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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. Such laws always have an "out"
Like the ability to notify a different person in the event tellnig a parent would be dangerous.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. this is good that he voted the way he did.....
kids in families where the father or uncle or brother rape the child....need to be able to go and safely be able to take care of themselves....

many of the abuse cases that I have read about are in highly religious families and it is a deep dark secret. Multipersonality disorder and others come from abuse in highly concentrated religious families. Sorry, that is what I have read. One book is by philip greven.

This is protect the child from abuse from parents.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. They're running the same in IL
on cable stations. That was the same reacion I had. Then I think about when I was in HS and my best friend had an abortion. That was in 1977 or so. She was 17 at the time. I don't think her parents ever knew ...to this day.

Did she make the right decision. For her, yes. And before I get flamed about a 17 year old not being mature enough, you can't make that decision for all 17 year olds.

She would never have done anything illegal. It was the best decision for her and I have no doubt that she supports keeping the right to make the choice as do I.

It's a nasty, devisive commercial where the Republicans are reachine for anything they can latch on to on an emotional level. All because they can't run on their record.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. If you're not mature enough to decide to have an abortion
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 09:47 AM by rocknation
then you can't POSSIBLY be mature enough NOT to have one!

Such legislation is unconstitutional. No one has the right to make your reproductive decision for you under any circumstances.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. good points
The ad should only appeal to Shrub's base.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. Saw a bumper sticker today...

Support Family Values: Equal Marriage Rights for All

The point being, to worry about this and respond by trying to "defend" or explain Kerry's positions in the terms the Republicans demand is to defer to the GOP the definition of what defines "family values." That particular ad is not about "family values." It is about abortion rights and should be answered and discussed only in those terms.



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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. In Pakistan this is probably known as the "Right to Honor Killing" bill.
eom
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. Why not email the Bush campaign and ask for the details?

If they never respond, you have an LTTE "Why won't they supported their own accusations?"

If they give you the details, you can look it up in the Congressional Record or elsewhere: it's possible they're picking a paragraph out of a fifty page bill, for example (and that would be another good LTTE).
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DieboldMustDie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. The "morning after pill" is available only by prescription.
I don't see how schools could be handing them out. :shrug:
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. "Only by prescription" unless the law says otherwse.
More than one country (France and England I know about) have laws on the books permitting school nurses to hand them out for free and without a prescription.

I'm not aware of the legislation involved in the add. I'll look in to it.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. In the States, the FDA buckled under political pressure....
Although the FDA could not cite any medical reason not to carry the morning after pill over the counter, they decided against it just in case young women (translation: teens) got sick.

My local Planned Parenthood gives automatic prescriptions of it to every all their patients so if you suddenly need it, you can pick it up anytime.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. I seriously doubt I'll ever need it. But thanks for the offer.

1) I LIKE kids. (We're expecting #4 now)
2) I'm male.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. Aw, this is so cute.
I've been wondering what happened to our midnight disinformation sessions.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why the hell should this worry us?
His position is entirely defensible, and has the added virtue of being the RIGHT position.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. It will go over big with Bush* voters but

anyone who thinks twice will know most bills have many parts and Kerry was probably not voting for those particular actions, though he may support them as well. The parental notification issue is problematic. Most parents would want to know but should realize why some parents would misuse that trust and abuse their daughter. I think most would understand that explanation and agree with it.

As for morning after pills in schools -- how could that be true when schools cannot give out aspirin w/o a note on file from the parents saying it's OK? In fact, that's a RW argument, that if you have to consent for your kid to get an aspirin in school, you should also have to consent for her to get an abortion.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. college campuses?
That's the only reference to RU486 and schools that I've found. Cute, really cute, mixing up two entirely different situations to confuse people.

I'm against parental notification anyway and think teens should be able to get RU486, from a doctor or clinic, not at their high school.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
14. another Kerry-bashing ad from the 'optomist'
where's bush* ads that tout his accomplishments?

in a nutshell - he's doing to Kerry what he did to America. Lying and misleading rhetoric based on 'hyped' information.

Not only doesn't bush* have a roadmap -- he's not even on the road
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. Kerry's votes were explained and defended by one of the networks
but I can't recall which network news talked about this ad a few days ago. But the commentator (who was not a Democratic spokesman) defended Kerry's positions as being responsible votes to protect children who were victims of abuse. This ad is especially cynical and disgusting by exploiting parental concern over their children and purposely ignoring the fact that child abuse issues were behind Kerry's votes.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yet another ad designed to appeal to
the RW. No need to worry. Most moderates understand that many rapes are the result of incest or that many young women seeking abortions come from very unstable homes where there is violence and neglect. This is why these laws were designed and most people understand that.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. I wouldn't say so... no.
The RW just needs to be told "pro-choice" and they come running like Pavlov's dogs.

This is an add aimed at the middle. These are the "wedge" issues that the slippery slope leaves us with. The RW is saddled with their 2nd ammendment crowd so that even "middle of the road" policies like 24-hr waiting periods are unacceptable. But the vast majority of voters approve of them - leaving republicans in a bind.

This is the similar point on the abortion argument scale. The majority of voters do not want abortion to be illegal... but on these border issues of parental notification and school nurses who can't distribute asprin giving out morning-after pills? The polls are not with us even if we are "right".

A 1998 (yes, I know it's old) NYTimes poll showed 80% favoring parental notification laws. But a Zogby poll from this January showed much the same results. A quinnipiac poll of NJ a couple years ago showed overwhelming favorability for a proposed parental notification law... that's NEW JERSEY folks. If it "plays" there, it plays in PA and IN and most of the rest of the battleground.

It plays particularly big in Florida, where they recently hit the 3/5 requirement to get a Constitutional ammendment onto this year's ballot. (The FL Supreme Court recently ruled a parental notification law unconstitutional - so of course they want an ammendment). So, yeah, Kerry's opinion on the matter will get some air time.


Yes - there is need to worry. But we knew this when we picked Kerry. He's been in the Senate long enough that there are going to be some votes that he made on principle which don't sell so well. So? He can't find a thing or two Bush has done to answer the charge?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
56. Agree Frodo
Most voters are moderate on abortion. I am one of them.

We want abortion to be legal, but want reasonable restrictions on it too.

The Republicans are completely radical on the issue saying no abortions for any reason any time.

The Democrats are just as radical, saying legal abortions at any time for any reason.

Whoever can capture the middle ground of the debate will win it. This is Bush's try at capturing the middle ground.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
17. every Dem has to deal with this stigma
we've overcome it before. not a big deal.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think these are very good votes...
but yes, the RW is starting to focus on them.
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. Haven't similar parental notification laws been thrown out by judges?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. --> Debunked <---
http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker/archives/002134.html

Bush-Cheney Ad Fact Check Family Priorities

George Bush promised to unite the country, but this new ad illustrates how hes divided America like never before. He has no plan to cut health care costs, create good paying jobs or win the peace in Iraq, so he attacks and misleads. This ad says a lot about why voters want Kerry-Edwards, a new team for a new America, - Kerry campaign spokesman, Chad Clanton.

BUSH-CHENEY AD FACT CHECK:



AD TITLE: Family Priorities

DATE: 7/15/04



BUSH-CHENEY CREDIBILITY GAP




President Bush: I'm George W. Bush and I approve this message.



Voice Over: When it comes to issues that affect our families, are John Kerry's priorities the same as yours? Kerry voted against parental notification for teenage abortions.



THE RECORD



John Kerry Supports Common-Sense Parental Consent Laws Which Help Protect a Young Womans Safety and Well-Being. A young woman who becomes pregnant should always be able to turn to loving parents for advice and support. But John Kerry recognizes that there are any number of situations in which forcing a young woman to obtain a parents consent before obtaining an abortion could put her at serious risk of further harm or abuse, increasing illegal and self-induced abortion, family violence, suicide, late term abortions, and unwanted childbirth. Thats why both the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics oppose mandatory parental notification. And thats why Kerry voted for common-sense parental consent measures that encourage young woman to talk to their parents about options surrounding an unwanted pregnancy, but still make sure that the young womans welfare and safety is protected by including broad exemptions for grandparents, aunts, and uncles to provide consent, the young womans doctor to indicate that a medical emergency exists, a court determines that an abortion would be in the young womans best interest, or a licensed or certified professional certifies that parental notification could put the young woman at risk.



BUSH-CHENEY CREDIBILITY GAP




Voice Over: Kerry even voted to allow schools to hand out the morning after pill without parents' knowledge. He voted to take control away from parents by taking away their right to know.



THE REALITY



John Kerry Voted to Allow Parents to Have More Control Over How Their Local Schools Spend Federal Dollars. Contrary to right-wing insinuations, the morning-after pill does not induce an abortion; like condoms, birth control pills, and other forms of contraceptives, the morning after pill prevents a pregnancy before it occurs. Some local school districts have chosen to use federal family planning funds to ensure that young women, who may have been the victims of rape or incest and may not be covered by health insurance, have access to the morning after pill and other emergency contraceptive services through school- or community-based health clinics. John Kerry believes parents have more control over local school districts and voted to protect their ability to spend money as they choose and to prevent further erosion of a womans right to choose.



BUSH-CHENEY CREDIBILITY GAP




Voice Over: John Kerry has his priorities. The question is, are they yours?



THE RECORD



Kerrys Priorities Are the Same as Every American



Lower the Cost of Health Care:



Kerrys Health Care Plan Will Cover 27 Million Uninsured Americans and Cut Premiums by 10%. John Kerry has a comprehensive health care plan for America which will simultaneously hold down costs while expanding coverage to more Americans. Kerry's plan would cover 27 million uninsured Americans and reduce premiums for everyone by 10%. Kerrys plan will allow all Americans to buy into the same health plan that the President and Members of Congress give themselves and provide health care coverage for every young woman in America. No health care plan for America can work without the direct personal involvement and leadership of the President of the United States. I intend to be a President who goes to the Oval Office each morning resolved that health care will not merely be the rhetoric of a campaign, a promise made and lost, but that with unwavering determination, for as long as it takes - we will at long last make health care available and affordable - a right and not a privilege - for every American. Kerry Announcing His Health Care Plan


Create 10 Million New Jobs:



John Kerry Has a Plan to Create 10 Million New Jobs in America: Use Government Contracts for U.S. Workers: Stop Giving Government Contracts to Corporations Breaking the Rules; Consumers Right to Know on Call Center Workers; End Every Single Tax Credit That Gives Corporations Breaks for Moving Jobs Offshore; A Tax Credit to Create Manufacturing Jobs; More Jobs in Small Business; Jobs Through Energy Technology; Enforce Trade Laws to Protect American Workers; Make Sure Americans Can Compete in 21st Century Economy. <www.johnkerry.com >


A Plan to Win the War on Terror:



John Kerry Has a Seven-Point, Comprehensive Plan to Fight the War Against Terror:

I. Use Direct Military Action: Kerry will use military force when necessary to capture and destroy terrorist groups and their leaders. He will also increase active duty end strength and tailor forces to be better prepared for post-conflict and stability operation.

II. Improve International Intelligence and Law Enforcement: Kerry will strengthen communication networks between intelligence agencies, build cooperative capacity with international law enforcement agencies, increase the number of linguists trained in critical languages and create a real Director of National Intelligence with budget and personnel power.

III. Cut Off the Flow of Terrorist Funds: Kerry will impose tough financial sanction against banks or nations that engage in money laundering or fail to act against it and will launch a name and shame campaign against those that finance terror.

IV. Control the Spread of Weapons on Mass Destruction: Kerry will appoint a high-level Presidential envoy to lead the effort and expand the Nunn/Lugar program to buy up and destroy stockpiles of loose WMD materials.

V. Win the Peace in Iraq and Afghanistan: Kerry will bring real security in Iraq by broadening the coalition, including the United Nations, and creating a real Iraqi security force that can take care of itself and the people it is supposed to protect. In Afghanistan, Kerry would put forward a major increase in security and fund the promised a Marshall Plan for reconstruction.

VI. Win the War of Ideas and the Future of a Young Generation: Kerry will build bridges to the Arab and Islamic world by supporting and assisting human rights groups, independent media, and labor unions dedicated to building a democratic culture.

VII. Secure America's Homeland: Kerry will restore funding for the COPS program, add 100,000 firefighters to our streets, secure and protect our nuclear and chemical facilities, bolster port and aviation security.


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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. Very nice, thank you !
:)
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. got some poll data?
are you speaking for YOURSELF when you say, "this WILL NOT appeal to independent/middle class people."

Or do you have some poll data that shows that "independent/middle class" people share Bush's radical anti-abortion politics?

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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. Even if others do, I wouldn't take what the Bush ads say at face value.
They're just not trustworthy.

Besides, parental notification is a poor standard. What if the father is the rapist?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
57. When a father wants to know
why he wasn't told his daughter just had surgery without his knowledge, the answer will be, "how do we know that you aren't a rapist?"

I would suggest Kerry not try that argument. It will insult millions of dads.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. Quit worrying about Bush attack ads - they are a sign of weakness.
Attack ads by an incumbent means he is in trouble. This election is about Bush. As long as he continues to talk about Kerry he does nothing to convince voters he deserves "reelection". Besides, the only group who is going to care about how Kerry voted on abortion legislation is not going to vote for Kerry anyway. And some of them may not vote for Bush if he doesn't give them a better reason to than that he is not Kerry.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. FYI
I ran into a rabid Repuke neighbor yesterday while shopping, what she is doing at Costco I don't know because she is "so wealthy" in her words. My Dem friends have gotten into some arguments with her because she is pro Yucca Mtn, anyway she said that she is for Kerry, her exact words, "well you guys have my vote for Kerry". This because of the restrictions on birth control and abortion and the fact that * is pushing requiring parental notification. She wants her daughter to be able to take care of herself with another parent or someone she trusts if she can not come to her. She is not a leader, this woman so someone in her "group" is jumping ship. This is good.
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Lefty Pragmatist Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. But it isn't an attack ad.
That's the point. The thing that makes this ad dangerous is that it is a position ad (one of the few by either candidate), and it lines up with the position of a large number of parents.

We ignore the culture ads at our peril. They play very well anywhere within 10 miles of a Walmart, and in the rustbelt and midwest *those* voters are essential to a Kerry victory.
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. "Within 10 miles of a WalMart"??
Wouldn't that be 87% of the population?
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Nightjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. They are desperate and despicable
Most people that see these ads don't automatically believe what they are hearing.
Bushco is throwing all thier lies, distortions and half truths against the wall to see what will stick.
Don't sweat it. This election will be a landslide by November.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. I guess we should worry if a Bush ad actually had any
proposals for his second term in it.

Haven't see anything like that yet.

What's funny is the LTE and callers on talk shows who say that Kerry doesn't every say anything specific about his platform, which is not true, of course.

Yet, I can't remember a single proposal Bush has made for his second term.

Maybe they know something. :)
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
35. I dug around, and here are the "adfacts" from chimpy's website:

AD FACT

VOICE OVER: "When it comes to issues that affect our families, are John Kerry's priorities the same as yours? Kerry voted against parental notification for teenage abortions."

BACKGROUND

Kerry Voted Against Requiring Parental Notification For A Minor's Abortion. (S. 323, CQ Vote #131, Adopted 52-47: R 38-5; D 14-42, 7/16/91, Kerry Voted Nay)

AD FACT

VOICE OVER: "Kerry even voted to allow schools to hand out the morning after pill without parents' knowledge. He voted to take control away from parents by taking away their right to know. John Kerry has his priorities. The question is, are they yours?"

BACKGROUND

Kerry Voted To Allow Federal Money To Be Used To Distribute The Morning-After Abortion Pill In America's Schools. (H.R. 4577, CQ Vote #169: Motion Rejected 41-54: R 6-48; D 35-6, 6/30/00, Kerry Voted Yea)
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. it's not so simple
girls usually have good reason to not want to tell their parents if they got pregnant (including if they decided not to get an abortion).

and many girls WILL tell their parents if they feel their parents will help them get through whatever they wanted or decided to do. but the girls who don't often have good reason not to tell such as they had gotten pregnant from being raped by a family member or close family friend or a mother's boyfriend etc.
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osaMABUSh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
37. BC '04: attack, attack, attack Voters: ignore, ignore, ignore
I think their constantly negative ads contrast nicely with our positive ads and the tone is not lost on the electorate.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-04 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. Kerry has already dealt
Edited on Mon Jul-19-04 11:25 PM by fujiyama
with a round of nasty negative attacks right after he won the nomination.

It had a slight effect at first but all it really did was make things even. Bush spent millions of dollars and all he was able to do was make it even in the polls.

Kerry has also had to deal with his record being question in his '96 campaign.

The ads aren't necessarily what worried me though. It's the fact that Kerry won't have the money to counter it. He will be at a severe money disadvantage for several weeks until the RNC in Sep.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Its odd
Kerry seems to have a great deal of teflon coating. Right now, the Bush administration has spent over 100 million dollars, a great deral of it on negative attack ads against the Bush Administration, and this has had virtually no effect on Kerry in the polls, in fact, the more Bush attakcs Kerry, the more Kerry seems to improve in the polls.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. I think it's a testament
Edited on Tue Jul-20-04 02:08 AM by fujiyama
to how unpopular Bush really is. Many people out there really simply don't like him. That's why his disapproval rating is still higher than his approval rating.

Also, initially Bush's ads may have had some impact, then again it may have just been that during the primary victories Kerry was recieving a lot of positive press coverage. As we know, the media immediately took the Rove talking points once he became the de facto nominee.

To give the Kerry camp some credit his positive ads were actually pretty effective. I may have been biased, but they were still very good ads. That probably helped keep him competetive.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. THe odd part about the accusations about Kerry
being a flip flopper on issues, is that any candidate has to be able to change their point of view or opinion on something, or opinion on how a situation should be handled based on the changing events that surround that situation.

Lets look at the BUsh Administration. Bush started out being of the opinion that he didnt wnt to get involved with all of this "Nation Building" stuff in the middle east and the Balkans, yet uses the events of 9/1 to justify the change in that position about nation building, which is what he claims to be doing in Iraq. As Kerry and other point out, Bush sat on his hands about the situation between Israel and the Palestinians until the some Palestinians began using methods similar to those of Al Qaeda. Then of course, he describes people who have been left with littole option but to engage in things like suicide bombings as terrorists, when BUsh sat back and let Israle do whatever it wantedm because he knew that Israel had the military superiority to do whatever it wanted to the Palestinians, without making a single concession to th Palestinian Authority.
Once it looked like Israel was going to face a threat that they would not be able to deal with, Bush decides it is time to get into the nation building business again. Too late.

Why should not Kerry change his stances on issues as the events change, as well. When Bush does so, it is the sigfn of decisive leadership and the ability to react to situation as the need arises. WHen it is Kerry, it is flip , flopping.

I think the American Electorate, particularly moderates, seem to sense instinctively, if not intellectually, that it is not a good thing for a politician to stick to one point of view and not change it, no matter what current events seem to indicate should be done.

Kerry did oppose the first GUlf War. He strongly felt that ther first Bush Administration did not give diplomatic measures ordered by the U.N. enough time to see if they would be effective. Kerry stated that he thought the last set of measured passed by the U.N. should be given six months at least, not the two that the first Bush Administration gave to the very last set of resolutions passed by them. Later on, as evdence began appearing about Husseins activities, Kerry began to modify his views on Iraq as actual information began coming to light, and not unverifiable intelligence.

Same thing occured this time round. Kerry and Edwards signed legislation that indicated that the Bush Administration would exhaust every peaceful, diplomatic measure before using force in Iraq. THe Bush Admnistration not only forced the issue, but refused to take another vote through the Security Council to take action in Iraq because he didnt want to face a veto from France, China, or Russia, and so it was Bush who walked away from the tale of diplomacy, deciding to abandon the diplomatic measures he committed to engage in fully. Kerry still kept insistend that singing the resolution was correct, as this resolution insisted that BUsh had to STAY in the peaceful, diplomatic channel, once he had started it.
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digno dave Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
40. ALL GOOD POINTS
but i tend to agree ith Lefty Pragmatist and Frodo.
BushCo. is htiching their wagon to the "Kerry has his values, but does he share yours?" tag line that is on most of their ads.
I understand why Kerry voted the way he did on those issues but unfortunately those reasons aren't espoused in the Bush ads. This ad is just an another attempt by Bush to highlight the supposed cultural divide between kerry and the mainstream.
I hope this issue simply dies a quiet death, but i won't be surprised if it refuses to.
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joanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Chimpy cant run on his record
So all he can do is attack Kerry.

I agree with the poster that Kerry's positive ads contrast nicely with Chimpy's constant attacks.

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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. I have two daughters 13 & 11, and if this is true, then Kerry
has lost my vote. But I will triple check it out before
siting out on 1st tuesday in november.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. If it's true then
why do you have a problem with it?

I have a daughter that just turned 17. I've always had a problem with a parental notification requirements. It does not ensure greater parental involvement. In cases of incest, it puts the victim back in the hands of the abuser.

The only way to try and ensure that is to make sure you're involved before the situation arises, even then it's not a guarantee. If a teenage girl is determined to get an abortion, she will find a way. Putting on a parental notification restriction could possibly make her more scared and seek help in unsafe conditions that could risk her life.

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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. You make all valid points, Thanks
and both parents are quite involved with the kids.
However I still think it is absurd that parents
will not be notified in such instances. It is totally
unacceptable. Surely there is a small precentage of
parents who are rogues, and even incestuous. But
overwhelming majority are caring and loving.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. There's always a judicial bypass
If the girl doesn't tell anyone and has the abortion, then she's put back in with the rapist.

So let's say a girl is being raped by her brother. She gets pregnant, and doesn't tell anyone and has an abortion. Then she goes home and keeps getting raped by her brother.

If she tells a judge her story, her brother will be arrested and the rapes will end.

As a parent myself, I don't believe anyone has the right to operate on my minor child without my knowledge other than in a life threatening emergency. I believe the vast majority of American parents would agree with that.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
46. Pregnant teens is a side effect of abstinence only education IMO
I personally think the government has no place in this manner and last time I checked, abortion was legal. However, instead of dealing with the situation after the pregnancy occurs, why can't this administration deal with sex education? They don't want young adults to learn how to protect themselves and then they get upset when young adults don't protect themselves! *gasp*

The faster our Puritan society comes to grips with the fact that teenagers have and enjoy sex, the faster we can deal with educating them and reducing their risks of pregnancy and STD's.

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Still_Loves_John Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-20-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
52. I saw that ad. Here are my thoughts:
just some bullet points.

-It looks really desperate. They're hitting really hard really fast. It makes them look scared.

-It only serves to hilight Kerry's argument that the definition of "values" extends beyond what you think of birth control, which the ad was exclusively about. Values apply to everything, and this ad makes the Bush camp look totally ignorant of this fact.

-CNN said it's airing in "selective markets." That means they're only going to run it in very socially conservative areas to turn out their base. This is not a national ad.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-21-04 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
58. To give myself a pat on the back
during the partial birth abortion debate, there was talk of the issue being nothing more than an attempted wedge issue to put Democratic officeholders on the defensive.

I said at the time that if you think partial birth abortion is a good wedge issue, wait till Bush brings out parental notification, which he'll bring out just in time for the next election.

It's a great wedge issue for Bush to use.
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