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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:33 PM
Original message
To those who say they won't vote for Hillary if she is the nominee...
saying they will stay home, and claiming Hillary is a Republican, etc. Let me just say this, and believe me when I say this is like pulling teeth, but outside of Hillary's so called "cowboy talk" and the recent "Gas Tax" bullshit, there are very few policy disagreements between her and Obama, if those two things, alone, make her a "Republican" in many people's view, then it would just confirm that there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans in the first place except empty talk.

This isn't true, of course, but if you can claim Hillary is a Republican because of this, then so is Obama, for many other things.

As far as her running a dirty campaign, well, I don't see Obama's campaign as being much cleaner here. Both candidates are in this to win, and dirty politics is typical of that, frankly I hate it, but its reality.

The fact is that Hillary and Obama are closer on policy and their positions on the issues than either of them are to McCain. If we can agree on anything on this board, it should be this, either Democrat is a much better alternative than the Republican in this race.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't care about policy as much as I do character, integrity and leadership.
Hillary fails all three. I'd vote for roadkill first.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I look for those qualities in a pastor, not a president.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Amen.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. Well, that's your choice. Policies can shift and change. Character, integrity and leadership
don't--those are permanent guiding qualities that allow a President to judge correctly what is truly best for the American people, ASIDE from political advantage, re-election polls, cronyism and moneyed interests. Of course, I know nobody who supports Hillary gives a rat's ass about character and integrity and honor--you can't, because she has none. You have to find a way to pretend it doesn't matter to you, same as the morans who supported GWB knew he didn't have two brain cells to rub together and thus concluded that one doesn't need a brain to be a good President. It's sad, really, the cognitive dissonance it takes to be a Clinton supporter.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. If we were looking for either of those three in a candidate, then neither candidate qualifies...
I'm simply puzzled at this proclamation. Neither candidate has Character, integrity, and both suck at leadership, so we have to look at other things, such as policy and issues to figure out who is best. Unfortunately, they don't differ much on those either.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. I think Obama has all three qualities by the truckload.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. I don't, just another politician.
:shrug:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Of course he's a politician. That doesn't mean you automatically
have no honor, or that you don't sincerely work for the best interests of your constituents and your country. There's always a degree of having to say or do whatever it takes to get elected, or of having to finesse policy and positions to keep everybody happy, or of having to grovel for money--but the best politicians can do that and still inspire us, and earn our trust and respect.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I have yet to see evidence that Obama or Hillary for that matter, deserves either trust or respect.
Both have pandered, both have played dirty politics, indeed, I'm not inspired by either, but rather dispirited by them.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Well, sorry to hear that. You could always go Nader, I suppose. Or do a write-in.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. You do realize I'm the OP, right?
If Nader, or any other true blue Liberal had a chance of winning, I would go for it in a heartbeat. However, do not confuse that with my pragmatism, which says that he doesn't have a chance, and my first priority, as a responsible voter is to prevent Republicans from being elected into office by voting for Democrats. This isn't because I like Democrats(I don't), but because I believe they aren't as bad as the Republicans.
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I'm with you.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. Obama certainly has a LOT more of those qualities than Hillary does, IMO. n/t
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #49
127. You do realize his whole campaign is scripted by paid advisors just like
everyone else? Everything he says or does is scripted for the people and the press... I like Obama, I hope he can bring the change he says he can to the country, but I am not blinded by the fact he is just another politician, period....
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mamalone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
115. Well said!
How anyone can say that character and integrity don't count in a position of such immense powere as the POTUS is beyond my comprehension. Seriously... if you can't trust a candidate's character, how can you determine what policies they will actually enact once they take office? If they have no integrity, what they are saying during the campaign may have little bearing once they gain control. Additionally, there are going to be all kinds of situations that come up during a president's term... things like 9/11. The only way we can trust that a person will behave appropriately is by looking at their character. I look at Hillary's done in this campaign and see that she is a person who desires personal advancement above all else. I shudder to think how this drive will influence her actions once in power. When I observe Obama's behavior during this campaign, I see a man with self-control. I see someone who is willing to possibly look bad or lose power rather than go beyond the bounds of his personal integrity. To me, this gives us very important information on how he will act when under pressure or attack.

I want someone who has the guts to take the high road.
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dennysp Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. I REMEMBER THIS ARGUMENT IN THE 1990'S
When Bill Clinton was President. Why is it that when the Clinton's are discussed, people say that "character doesn't count"???? So, would it be fair to conclude that Tonya Harding is a Clinton supporter; that Wanda Holloway, who hired a hitman to kill her daughter's cheerleading rival is a Clinton supporter; Elliot Spitzer....ooops!!! Yeah! I can just see Dick Cheney cheering Hillary on, hoping she wins, because she's just like him!

So, you're cheering, hoping, longing for a corrupt leader. As the leader is....so goes the nation! Well, bring on the popcorn....here comes THE GODMOTHER! She'll make us an offer we can't refuse!!!

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
74. two words: tricky dick. and a couple more.
I don't do church. I can't avoid having a president. to me, character and integrity are important qualities in a president. how very, very odd that you associate those qualites with religion. Clue: they are NOT inherently religious attributes. I know atheists of sterling character.
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Erin Elizabeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
75. REALLY?
I find that amazing. You mean you don't care if the president has integrity? Seriously?

Wow.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
105. The Constitution is premised on unscrupolous leaders. That's why there are checks and balances.
The OP is naive.
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Eric Condon Donating Member (761 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
77. What qualities ARE you looking for in a president, then?
It certainly can't be policy, since seeing that you're on these forums, my hunch is that you'd be at least slightly progressive.

Let me guess - you want a FIGHTER, right? Oh yeah.
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Duke Newcombe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
79. And maybe "settling" like that is the problem, doncha think? eom
duke
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Splinter Cell Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
102. Which is why..
....this country is in the shape it's in. We haven't had an honest president since Jimmy Carter.
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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. we can see that by your avatar. nt.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. Character is my key also. As a Democrat, I will not vote for McCain and I can't vote for Hillary on
principle.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. HCBC as C0 -President, with him running the show

No way!
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. I agree, weinerdoggie. she isn't trustworthy. we have had one of those for eight years.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. BINGO! Exactly. It's about INTEGRITY, character, and leadership and about how she'll *implement*
Edited on Sat May-03-08 11:31 PM by Triana
those policies. I have said this for WEEKS now.

There isn't much difference between their two sets of policies. The differences lie in HOW THEY'LL GET IT DONE.

As with this campaign - I MUCH PREFER Obama's way of getting it done than CLINTON'S.

It's not only about WHAT they'll each DO - but HOW they're going to DO it.

And there is a GALAXY OF DIFFERENCE between the way Hillary is likely to run things and the way Obama is likely to do it.

HILLARY will do it much like she's done her campaign - dirty, like a Republican. Same games, same playbook.

NOPE. I DON'T like that.

WHY?

Because we have had EIGHT YEARS of dirty, dishonest, pretentious, sledgehammer, slash-n-burn, obliterate, lowdown, 'my-way-or-the-highway', 'I'm gonna get what I want to hell with what's good for the country' politics - and LIES, and backroom deals with too many fellow corprats and their lobbyists.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for a continuation of that - more of the SAME. And how has THAT been working out these past eight years?

NO THANKS.

I want CHANGE. I want someone who will NOT run the White House the same way Republicans do. And Hillary - will. She'll destroy anyone and anything to get HER way. Obviously. She has no integrity.

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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran ... gonna vote for that?
Edited on Sat May-03-08 12:35 PM by votesomemore
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
7.  Nuke nuke nuke nuke Iran......gonna vote for that?
Edited on Sat May-03-08 12:40 PM by Upton
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. I was talking about HilLIARy. But I understand the confusion. nuff said
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populistdriven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
73.  Boil Boil Boil Boil Iran......gonna vote for that?
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Hillary will obliterate them. nt
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. The fact is that Hillary was contributing to "cowboy talk" as some call it, but neither candidate...
differs much on foreign policy. Obama would "obliterate" Iran just the same as Hillary, given the same situation.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
76. that's nothing but your opinion. mine differs.
you do not know that Obama would obliterate Iran given the same circumstances. He said merely that all options were on the table. that doesn't indicate what he'd do. It's simply what you wish to believe.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. And what did she boldly say that she would do to another
Edited on Sat May-03-08 10:19 PM by goclark
country?

Here is a hint, it starts with a big fat scary "O"
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. And Hillary's vote for the Iraq war and her middle east umbrella
Edited on Sat May-03-08 12:36 PM by dkf
and not going into Pakistan to try to get Osama Bin Laden.

Yeah, that's just a few itty bitty differences...NOT.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. there are very few policy disagreements between her and Obama
I dont disagree with her stated policies, but as her husband showed after winning in 92 that doesnt mean she will follow through on those promises.

Im sorry, I can no longer trust her.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. To those who say "...if she is the nominee" you are in denial. So don't worry be happy!
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Claiming she would nuke Iran sounds Republican to me
when it comes to foreign policy she's closer to McCain.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah
but she didn't claim that exactly now, did she?

The policy she stated is no different from anybody else's in the race. And as long as Iran doesn't nuke Israel, everyone'll be fine, right?
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. but she didn't claim that exactly now, did she?
Obliterate means what to you?
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. If Iran nuked Israel, you think ANY President wouldn't pull the trigger?
You're deluding yourself. Keep HRC's comment in context.

Bake
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Sorry to disillusion you but it IS and ALWAYS has been AMERICAN
policy to nuke anyone who nukes us or our allys. That's what you call carrying a big stick. Why didn't the Russians nuke us or Briton or Israel etc? Hint! They KNEW we'd nuke them if them into oblivion if they did.
You'll never get Obama or any Dem to even try to change that policy. You people making these statements are ridiculous and just jumping on the anti Hillary fake outrage band wagon. They make absolutely no sense. Get real!
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washingdem Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. She won't be the nominee, so luckily we won't have that dilemma.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. so you're saying BOTH Obama and Clinton are Republicans?
why vote for any of them then? The choice seems to be either Super-Republican McCain or Republican-lites Obama and Clinton. A general election vote is not just a vote against McCain, its a vote for either Obama or Clinton. And I see little reason to vote for any of them.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
47. There is one, whether its Obama or Clinton, they will do less damage than McCain...
Edited on Sat May-03-08 10:32 PM by Solon
to the nation. Their policies are center-right, at best, but at least they aren't extreme right wing like McCain's policies.
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swishyfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. I won't vote for her because it's over
I don't think her policies are republican, but her campaign tactics are.
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Exactly - her campaign, not her policies (well - most of them anyway), are
is Republican. The problem with that is that it shows her leadership style. She clearly believes in manipulating and pandering to people with distortions and has no problem what so ever using wedge issues. That tells me that her campaign is only about her winning - not the American people winning.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks, but those aren't the reasons I won't vote for her.
:hi:
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. me neither...
I have other reasons NOT to vote for her...
policy positions will change....
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Maureen54 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. can't do it
I have lost trust and respect for her.
Have thought long and hard about it, but have to vote my conscience, which will mean a vote for a Green party candidate,independent ( if one is on the ballot) or no vote at all.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. She voted for the war. Thus, I will not vote for her.
In short, she cannot be trusted.

Whatever her "policy" positions may be, polls and note policy will play a bigger roll in her decision making.
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annie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
99. would you have not voted for Biden or Edwards had they won the nomination?
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #99
109. Absolutely not.
I would not have voted for Clinton, Biden, Edwards or Dodd.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. A huge problem for me personally is that Clinton is a DLC member
and I have made a personal vow to never vote for a DLC Democrat. To me, voting for a DLC member is the same as voting for a Republican. I'd still vote, but I'd probably write-in my vote for Kucinich, or Obama if there appeared to be a big enough movement afoot for Obama write-ins.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. I disagree that Obama has run a dirty campaign, but agree that Clinton is not a Republican
She has used some Republican tactics against Obama that make me sick, but her policies are pretty far off from the Republicans. I agree that she would clearly be the lesser of two evils against McCain and that her policies are not that different from Obama's on most issues. I will vote for her if she is the nominee, though I can't promise that I will donate or volunteer.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. And so begins Operation Outreach. Sorry no sale n/t
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cyndensco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. catherina
Who is that a picture of? I figure I should know but don't.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. If you think I'm a Hillary supporter, you need to take your meds...
Edited on Sat May-03-08 10:17 PM by Solon
There is no outreach here, I just dislike Republicans more than Democrats, no more, no less.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
30. Her dirty right-wing tactics are a bigger threat to our party and our country
than 4 years under McCain.

Seriously. It's unacceptable to vote for a Democrat who would use race to frighten American voters.

Once she uttered "Farrahkan" in the Philly debate, that was all she wrote for me. I won't even SAY how disgusting the "Obaama is a Muslim" (slur, I guess -- it's it hideous to be Muslim??) was.

We might suffer under McCain, but future Dems would know that there are limits. Victory at any cost will not be tolerated in the Democratic party.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. And Obama's tactics are exemplary? Where was his integrity and character back in October of last...
year? Hillary has used race, Obama has used gays, they are both pandering politicians who believe in "victory at any cost". Why tolerate it from one and not the other? Just because it got less play in the media doesn't mean it isn't less offensive or intolerable.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #42
86. No comparison in tactics, IMO. nt
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
117. There is absolutely no comparison between tactics (n/t)
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. It's not her policies that I have a problem with
Hillary has demonstrated with her campaign that she will very likely govern exactly like Bush does. She has exhibited the exact same negative traits that Bush has. Sorry, but I cannot vote for someone like that for president.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. Not gonna have to worry about it
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. we will NOT stay home.. Ahhhnold will surely load up our ballots with some bullshit
so we will have to go and vote against that stuff...BUT since we are in BLUE California, we will have the luxury of not HAVING to fill in that one extra box ..

It would be a much harder choice if we lived in a swing state..
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
39. She's an unrepentant liar, and that's undeniable. I will never reward a liar.
Fortunately, she won't be the nom, so I'll be able to vote.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. So is Obama, they are both politicians, are they not? n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Uh, yeah, as soon as someone can actually PROVE his "lies", talk to me.
Meanwhile, clinton - Tuzla video, NAFTA meetings paper trail, the mother who died IN the hospital WITH insurance...

Sorry, her lies are actually proven.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. "He's just going to sing."
"God saved me from Homosexuality!"

Well, there's one, if you want, I can probably find many others.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #50
78. That's not even CLOSE to proof (and fyi, I'm queer, if it matters).
Is Obama supposed to be able to read McKlurkin's (sp?) mind and predict exactly what he would say?

Please, I ask for something spicy and you bring the weakest sauce. NEXT.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. The fact is that Obama had control over the event, his campaign sponsored it...
If anything, he could have kicked McClurkin to the curb, like he should of. It really was inexcusable what he did, and he hasn't apologized for it yet. It isn't guilt by association either, simply because Obama was warned about the guy, and went ahead with the event anyways. They also could have had McClurkin NOT MC the event, that would have helped.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. I am so sorry you are that "one issue" voter we hear so much about....
but people are dying in an unnecessary war, based on lies and manipulation. There are a lot of issues facing the American people, and most don't care about a black gospel singer, who CLAIMS he's "healed".

There are many reasons I can't even bring myself to think about voting for HRC, and many have already been listed. But if you think a mixup about a gospel singer at a gospel concert compare with Tuzla, NAFTA, dead woman/baby....you've got much bigger problems.

:hi:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #80
131. I remain unconvinced of your argument. I find it flawed and juvenile.
Was he the best choice? No. Is Obama responsible for what came out of his mouth? No.

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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. They all lie; Obama lies! Get over it! They are politicians! Grow up!!!!! n/t
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
101. That argument sounds like the "No big difference between Bush and Gore" argument
they used back in 2000. Sorry, but Hillary lies as easily as breathing. There are huge differences between Clinton and Obama in this. A chasm, actually.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. I actually wouldn't stay home, I'd still vote,
but would not vote for Clinton or McCain. And to claify we don't even go to the polls anymore in Oregon, we vote by mail. There are plenty of downticket candidates and ballot measures to vote for. Those deserve my attention regardless of what happens in the presidential race.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'll vote for her if she's the nominee, and then I'll go home and vomit.
We have no idea what Hillary stands for other than getting elected President. The rest is posturing.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I feel, more or less the same way about both of them...
Hence the reason why I'm puzzled that some people claim they would vote for one, but not the other.
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
51. Agree to some degree however, she is too far behind Obama. Giving her the nom. isn't justified.
Edited on Sat May-03-08 10:40 PM by kwenu
Plus her behavior in attacking her fellow Democratic contender as unsuitable while affirming the Republican candidate has put her permanently on the wrong side of a lot of Democrats.
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. She won't be the nominee.
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pompano Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. I can give you....
4000+ reasons, add in another 30,000 wounded reasons, and God knows how many other reasons that will never be counted as to why I personally think she is alot closer to Republicans on the issues. I can give you hundreds of tortured reasons. Give it to you in 3 letters I-W-R!!!

Was that cowboy talk, or was that a lying cowboy talking and a law maker signing when she should have been reading?

You need another $10 billion dollar per month worth of reasons?

How about the uncounted reasons. The children that have and will suffer because of NAFTA when their mother or father had their jobs shipped overseas and can barely make ends meet today, all in the name of a politician playing corporate ass kissy.

But, thats my opinion.
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pompano Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I'm sorry Pisces...
Edited on Sat May-03-08 11:26 PM by pompano
I wasn't replying to your post. It just popped up there. A senior moment, oops.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
57. well ok but
can i still take her off the VP list?
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
60. It is the war vote - Kyle-Lieberman vote - Dubai connections Bill has - Her misspeaks -
Her kitchen sink strategy - Her Murdoch and other Repub connections - Letting those in her campaign talk racial connotations that hurt the very strength of the Democratic Party - and last but not least the comment about obliterating Iran.

There are probably more but right now I am tired. Have a good night!

May the best person win!
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
62. Great post. If this forum was halfway fair, your post would have 1000 recs
K&R
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
66. Here's what would worry me
The last time we had a Democrat that was President who tried to out macho the republicans it was Johnson and we know what happened then.

Its not the IWR. Its that even after that she still tries to explain it in a 'macho' rubric.

And now the obliteration of Iran.

We have a very long history of candidates running for president of both parties who have refrained from 'going nuclear' on the campaign trail.

Typically they would say things like "an attack on so and so would be considered an attack on the vital interests of the United States and we would act accordingly. . . we would not take any option off the table'

firm but ambiguous. To make up thermonuclear policy on the campaign trail is a stunning departure of any candidate in either party.

To promise a wide expansion of the use of M.A.D. into the Middle East is a joke.

Such a war would hold the possibility burning the ozone layer and endangering the entire ecosystem.

Thankfully everyone more or less ignored her knowing that her campaign is in fact over.




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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
69. I agree either one is better than McCain
But Hillary claims to be a major part of the Clinton 1 administration and they didn't get a whole lot done for the progressive agenda. A lot of promises not a lot of delivery. So when HRC goes out and makes her promises I tend not to believe her. Sorry, but experience can cut both ways. If you had the opportunity and didn't succeed, and claim you did, and pass off the failures as someone else's issue. Well then shut the fuck up because I am done with listening.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Both candidates are center-right candidates, and so little will be done for the "progressive agenda"
with either of them in office. I don't see that as a reason to support one over the other.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
70. there is less difference between DLC and Republican
than there is between Clinton and Obama IMO.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/71
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-03-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Both are still centrists...
and on the issues themselves, on an individual level, neither are left-wing, liberal, or progressive, choose a label, they aren't it. Centrist or moderate is more accurate.
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solidguild Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
81. What you don't see is the truth.
You write, "I don't see Obama's campaign as being much cleaner here." You can't pull Obama down into Hillary's mud without backing it up with facts and reality. And the reality that I, like most other people, see is that she is running perhaps the most vindictive and nasty campaign one Democrat has ever run against another. I'm sorry you fail to see this. Or I guess you do, and realize since she can no longer go back to being the candidate for "change", you must level the playing field by dragging Obama's name down, again, despite the reality we all know and see quite clearly.

You attempt to bait the argument by rightly pointing out that many of their policy decisions are similar. Both candidates have admitted this. That does not mean your imaginary "dirtiness" from Obama is true. Nice try linking the two things.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
83. At this point, I'd still vote for her
but she's definitely getting on my last nerve and I reserve the right to become apathetic about the whole thing should she continue down the road she's chosen.

I'd definitely not donate any money to her or any organization that would be helping her.

If anybody complained to me about her, I would simply quietly agree with their complaints and move on.

There will be no signs in my yard, nor any bumper sticker on my car.
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washingdem Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #83
89. You summed up my thoughts as well. As of right now I'd very grudgingly vote for her.
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my3boyz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
84. It is not about policy for me, it is the type of person that she is
She is very calculating. She is a cold and nasty individual that will/do anything to win. She puts her own ambition over what is best for the party.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. She is a very ugly person
I despise the woman nearly as much as I despise Bush.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. So why vote for her? When will the Democratic party have to earn our votes? nt
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. Bingo!
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #91
98. A democratic party indistinguishable from the republican party is a far greater long-term
thread to our country than 4 years under McCain.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. What is best for the party
In your opinion, the best thing for the party is to give Senator Obama a pass
through the vetting process.

That's absolutely the worst thing we can do for the Party.
Do you have any idea how much CRAP has yet to come out regarding Senator Obama?
So, you just want to artificially push him through the vetting process so that
he and our Party can be completely humiliated in the general election by a
fleet of swiftboats?

No. We're not going to do that. We're going to understand what we're getting
into before putting Senator Obama in the important position of our nominee.

Your hatred makes no sense. What are you trying to hide about Senator Obama?
Why can't we complete this process without hate?

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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
90. No I will not agree on that.
Not anymore. Because the only way she is winning the nomination is if the supers break for her. And at that point the Democratic Party will no longer need my support.

If you want to go on playing political ball afterwards feel free to do so but I have better things to do than encourage the party to do such crappy things.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Hypothetical
Edited on Sun May-04-08 07:47 AM by TheDudeAbides
what if the vetting process uncovers something that makes it impossible for
Senator Obama to win the general election?

Do you still expect the superdelegates to vote for him so that he's our nominee?
Just curious how your logic is working on this?
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Yes
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. BTW just to add to that. Anything that could make it impossible for him to win is uncertain.
For instance people thought Wright would sink him instantly. It did not. So from this point forward anything they could spring will be more along the lines of his votes or talk in congress.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #94
97. Vetting process
I suspect the vetting process is still incomplete.
Anyone who has really done research knows there are things about
Senator Obama that have not yet been discussed.
These things *will* be discussed.
The question is when? Do we give him a pass through our vetting process
and allow the GOP to drive that discussions in the GE?
Big mistake.

Or, do we complete our vetting process and evaluate the candidate based
on all the information available?

Obviously, if the table were turned, you would push for a full and complete
vetting process.
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #97
104. The vetting is complete
Only thing that is left is desperation on the part of Team Clinton.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. You are wrong about that
Edited on Sun May-04-08 03:51 PM by TheDudeAbides
but I certainly won't be the one who posts all the things about Obama that still need to be
discussed.

But, it's just a matter of time; we do it now or we do it in the ge.
I'd rather not face GOP swiftboats on these things.
I'd rather face it head-on now.
But, fortunately, it's not my decision; it's nice to be a spectator!

We'll lose to McCane if we procrastinate these discussions until the ge.
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
95. Trust
Edited on Sun May-04-08 08:00 AM by Undercurrent
I don't trust either of the Clintons, and none of the Reptiles, except one. If Clinton is the nominee I'll use an absentee ballot so I can write-in Obama.

I'm too old to not vote my conscience. My health is not good. Who knows, this may be my last chance to have my say. So no more voting "the lesser of two evils". No more settling. No more politics as usual.
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. I want to thank you for saying that.
I will likely do the same thing. I can't stand the thought of rewarding the so many i'lls that would lead to the Nomination of Clinton.

Tho we are working hard now for an Obama victory so we wont have to do a write in! We can start the change THIS year!
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #95
110. Then you are old enough to remember
Edited on Sun May-04-08 03:53 PM by TheDudeAbides
I'm really sorry about your health and hope you will feel better soon.

Help me understand what parts of peace and prosperity did you dislike about the Clinton years?

Or is it Bill's infidelity that upsets you about those years?

I'm just trying to understand since you were obviously an adult during the Clinton years.
I never know how serious to take some of the really young posters here because
they may not even remember the Clinton years nor did they have adult responsibilities then.

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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #110
134. Thank you for your kindness, TheDudeAbides.
Hi there.

Well, off the top of my head, I'm sure I can make a list. I'm equally certain my effort will be incomplete, not in order of time or importance, and a mix of both Clintons.

So for what it's worth, a partial list:

NAFTA
Ricky Ray Rector (an atrocity!)
Don't ask, don't tell
Bill defended Bush's invasion of Iraq (at the time, he later lied, and said he was always opposed it)
Iraq sanctions (crippled Iraq's economy, and lead to the deaths of nearly 1/2 million children)
Magnequench
WTO in general
Wal-Mart
infidelities
OKC bombing cover-up
First WTC bombing cover-up
Hillary current campaign of dirty tricks, lies, pandering, playing the sex/victim card, and general bs.
The Iraq Liberation Act
Norman Hsu
Mark Penn
Columbia
Depleted uranium in Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia
Lewinsky
Iraq war vote
Swallowing the 9/11 Commission Report, and Recommendations
PATRIOT ACT
REAL ID
Refusal to disclose Library funding
Bill's 3 days of bombing Saddam' (non existent) WMDs 1998
more...


PS: Oh yeah, and I hate pantsuits! :silly:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
100. I agree but will add a qualification.
Edited on Sun May-04-08 09:11 AM by mmonk
Using race and dishonest tactics along with media and republican attempts to smear and mischaracterize Obama is something that makes many people reluctant to reward with an affirmative vote. That reluctance is something that might be impossible to remove.
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
103. Fallacy: Argument of inclusion.
Hillary made her choice to sleep with the republicans. That is not where I am at, I view her constant lack of moral judgments during this campaign an epic fail. she continues to lose it when the chips are down, and I see that as an indication of mental instability. She is not fit to govern the most powerful nation on this planet.

I am sick of this utter lack of morality in our government today. The torture, aggression, and lack of respect for the constitution. And to me those are key items at which Hillary Clinton more then fails at. If she wants war so be it but I will not be one to help the lunatic obliterate another countries children.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
106. It's true that there is little difference between them.
They both are repulsively republican-lite on policy. :shrug:
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
108. The problem is her war-mongering (well, one of her many problems)
In my mind, particularly after watching her approach to campaigning, Hillary is a democrat in name only. I see her and McCain as peas in a pod. I will not vote for either of them.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
111. Except I do not believe she will do anything.
Policy means nothing if the candidate "compromises" it out of existence once elected. Moreover, she has "misspoken" too many times for me, I'm sick and tired of my country being operated by dirty campaigns that treat Americans as if they are stupid and have no enthusiasm at all for her campaign. She does not inspire me to believe anything more than more-of-the-same with a milder tone. This country doesn't need four more years of media-driven scandals in the White House and a "tough" President who operates on the lobbyist and favors system.

If I feel forced to vote for her just to protect the Supreme Court, or to pretend her policies will be what she campaigned on, it will be the last time I do anything for this party. I have felt forced to vote all of my adult life for candidates who are the "lesser of two evils" - enough. This country doesn't provide a mechanism for the voices of those not represented by the corporate/media/party appointed candidates to be heard.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
112. Hmmm
I would have agreed with you (Original Poster) two months ago. Even 1 month ago.

But truth be told - I supported Edwards. I could with a clean conscience go into the voting booth and vote for Barack Obama. I see a tremendous amount of potential in his ability to lead, a new energy in terms of foreign relations, a resurrection of the US in the world's view . . . I also think this man lacks the arrogance that would prevent him from reaching out to an Edwards, a Biden, a Richardson to say, "You had some great ideas. How do we implement this. John, help me with poverty. Joe, help me with Korean, Iraq, Afghanistan. Bill, help me with immigration and to find something BETTER than NAFTA." I can see that. I can't see that in Hillary.

But, dare I say, I also see Cynthia saying those same things to those three men. I also see her asking Elizabeth and Bob Dole for assistance in Darfur. Mike Huckabee for help with the infrastructure. I can't see that in Hillary.

I may not be here after November. Hillary Clinton will have to really fight to snatch my vote out of Cynthia's hands.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
113. She has also been selling our asses out to foreign governments
she is unqualified to be President.


After all her recent bullshit, and finally this gas tax shuck and jive, I figure she's not qualified to be Senator, either. I will donate to whoever runs against her when she comes up for re-election and I don't even live in NY.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. you do know that your post is so over the top that is loses it's intended effect n/t
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Hmm.... What about Colombia?? What about the Chinese??
What about that NAFTA thingy...I'm sure that every machinist in the US is grateful for that.

I'm so over the top I donated to her opposition, the first time I have ever donated to a political campaign...
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #113
118. Or what about ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - what if Hillary had no history of doing ANYTHING?
like Obama?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Well, then I'd vote for her instead....
:sarcasm:
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. that explains your vote for Obama then - no problem
i'm cool with that.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. You missed the sarcasm tag.
I wouldn't vote for her for any reason, with the possible exception of saving the supreme court. I'd have to see her plans for that.

Truth be known, I have serious doubts as to the viability of this nation for very much longer.

I think Obama might just be able to reduce the possibility of catastrophic foreign policy mistakes....
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. ok...i hope you are wrong about the future of our country
I'm feeling much better about things myself.
I hope you feel better about our future soon.
Perhaps Obama will be able to solve all these problems.
Time will tell.
I have not seen him fix anything in his Chicago district or in his State.
Fixing things on a national and global scale are much more difficult than local/state.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Do you live close enough to know this as fact??
including his time as street level activist?

I'd really like to know.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. Nope...I can only read what is available to me.
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. Do you have anything good for me to read about Obama's district in Chicago?
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. No, that's why I asked - I imagine I could go to his website
and at least get some names of the organizations he worked with...I'd like eyewitness reports...
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TheDudeAbides Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. Cliff..I'm sorry but that's the problem
There is a radio recording of a guy who grew up in Obama's district in Chicago
and who knows him personally. It's not flattering but here it is:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kw0zr9hn01E

Go forward to 1:50

That's the only eye witness I've found from his district.

Other than that, I am aware of some pretty rotten stuff that took place
on his watch there, but I won't mention it here.

I was hoping you could provide some proof that Obama had fixed all kinds of
things in Chicago and in his State.

Can anyone help us out here?

Last week, I did meet with about a group of community leaders from Upstate New York who
had worked directly with Senator Clinton. They told me what it was like working with their her
on local issues.

They said she traveled around the state into every single county, met with them and asked them what
they needed. They said this was the first Senator that had ever done this; some counties had
never even seen a state Senator. She created this huge notebook of things that the counties needed.
Every one of these people looked me in the eye and said that She delivered up on every single one of those
tasks in that notebook. They said they've never seen anyone like her and that she is a "doer".



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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
126. Though I agree with you, I wouldn't blame black folks in the least if they sat out.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
128. If she nukes, she's worse than Repukes. n/t
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
130. If she wins the most pledged delegates, I'll vote for her in the GE.
Otherwise, she has stolen the nomination, and I'm writing in "Barack Obama" on Election Day.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-04-08 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
132. Policy positions don't matter this time.
The shit mire that Bush has got us in will be whipped up into a full shitstorm during the next Presidency. Normal life will stop.

The question is: do we want Clinton, McCain, or Obama at the microphone when the chickens really come home to roost?
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