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The Clergy and his Flock: How my Husband or I couldn't ever run for public office, I guess.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:45 AM
Original message
The Clergy and his Flock: How my Husband or I couldn't ever run for public office, I guess.
I will be the first to admit that Rev. Wright, if one is chiefly concerned about how he makes Obama looks, for sure says things that would make one cringe (even me), but these are not Obama's words. And that is the bad part about this whole current fabricated situation.

Just to let you know, my husband is a minister and also the assistant to the pastor of our church, which is very similar to TUCC, as it is a large church 5,000 strong in a poor predominately Black community. The church is specifically located in that community because those are the people that need the help. Unlike Prosperity Churches that spend money on flashy CDs and programs and cushy chairs, and are oftentimes located in affluent neighborhoods, our church spends the tithes collected on the poorest in the community of which it is part of.

My Pastor, by some, could be judged as having quite the ego in some ways, as he has been head of our church for a long time, and he is 75 years old. The fact that he has had to run the church with a strong hand forces a bit of that. Churches can be real Peyton places, and my pastor tolerates very little nonsense. But his congregation loves this man, and reveres and respects him and strokes that ego quite a bit. The older ladies bring him gifts of food, and praises, and many of the Deacons and Deaconesses are quite in awe of him (he cared for his invalid wife for years before she recently passed away). The young people look up to him, much as they would their high school principal, but with more love.

and so, like Rev. Wright, my Pastor has earned respect and recognition for his good work...like building up our church to now have three wings and a Family Life Center (where all types of events like plays, and dinners are held). The church has a Prison Ministry, an AIDs' ministry (Bono was at our church last year), a charitable foundation in his wife's name that gives to African Causes, needy food banks, senior assisted living residences (that stretch for two blocks), scholarship help for teens, afterschool youth programs, and much more. He famously bought land from the Black Panthers years ago in order to expand the church. Governor Arnold the Terminator put him on the board of trustee of California Colleges a couple of years ago. Barbara Lee calls him her mentor, and she, in fact, wrote the preface in one of his books. Our pastor has traveled all over the world (he spoke at the U.N. against Apartheid, and spoke at Oxford just last summer), written six books and met with many dignitaries.

I will tell you that as much as my husband and our pastor have spent much time together and conversed, they are not anything alike, although they agree on more than enough, there are enough areas in where they do not agree (my husband is quite a bit younger, so his viewpoint is different, to begin with). In fact, my husband is more conservative and reserved, while the Pastor is quite liberal and demonstrative in his outlook. They have quiet debates and discussions about God (the pastor encouraged my husband to attend seminary school and provided him with a recommendation letter)and a bit of politics, but at the end of the day, my husband doesn't come home having adopted the ways or even most of the ideas of this man, although the Pastor may have given him a passage in the Bible that he will look up. In addition, my hubby would never insist in making any forceful demands that the pastor changes how he thinks about anything, or how he communicates with others. In discussions, they might educate one another, but the Pastor is pretty much set in his own ways, and My husband is very respectful of this. As far as my husband is concerned, just like most of the rest of the flock, he considers this man his elder, and a man educated in the Bible and God.

My Pastor gives fiery sermons, very similar to Rev. Wright. He gets the Holy Ghost, and might start softly and ends up sweating by the time he's done preaching hour long sermons (which can be listened to on the radio in our area). Sometimes, some of us in the audience wishes that he wouldn't always go on and on like he sometimes does, but we sit there, and we worship and make the best of it. Oftentimes his sermons are magical (he speaks Hebrew and Greek as well), sometimes maybe not as much. But you can be sure that in the receiving line after service, no member of the church will walk up to him and shake his hand and mention that maybe he went on too long, or that he might not have needed to say this and that. In most religious cultures, that is simply not something to do. Instead, part of what the flock does is lifts the pastor up with encouragement, and praise.

By contrast, my husband, who has a Law Degree, when he speaks, is in a whole different realm, because he does not have the type of personality that would lend to him giving these "Fiery" Holy Ghost sermons. And so his sermons are more intellectually presented, and just simply different from the pastor's because his sermons are more "him". My husband chooses his own topics to preach on, does his own bible research, and writes his sermons himself (I sometimes do help him with the editing).

And so, my husband, who loves the pastor and admires him greatly, has his own set of ideas in terms of his message, as well as how he expresses himself.

I believe that Obama has a similar relationship with his pastor. Obama, I'm sure learned a lot from the pastor about God, and about the world as his Pastor might see it, and specifically about history (Pastors have a tendency to be fluent in history....probably from having written many sermons), but it wouldn't be even my husband's place (as close as he might be to the pastor every Sunday) to correct the Pastor or tell him what he should say in the church, etc....

Now that I think of it, I guess my husband could never run for public office, because...heck, our Pastor had dealing with the Black Panthers in 1979....and you know how that association chase goes.

And that is why judging the Pastor has nothing to do with Barack Obama, and that is what is wrong with this entire exercise that the media has forced upon us.

First they came for Barack, and next, they'll come for my husband, and then they'll come for me.

Maybe that's why it sickens me so.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very good.
I think it is curious that a progressive/liberal democratic discussion forum has people who are siding with those who attack a progressive community leader. I may not agree with Rev. Wright on everything, but I admire his work and his courage.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. And again....he simply is not Obama.
It would be like judging President Carter based on Billy. Or Hillary based on Genifer Flowers and/or Monica. It's just a myopic thing to be doing....and this in itself, is setting up back at least 20 paces back. We are into the first decade of the 21st century back to the future of the 1950s. This is not a good thing for progressives, in particular.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. But Hillary has been judged based on Monica
right here on DU....phrases like "She exercised poor judgement when she didn't leave her cheating husband."
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. And did you find it to be the correct thing to do? To Judge Hillary on her decision?
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 05:17 AM by FrenchieCat
I never did.

I had a problem of Hillary running on her husbands record and calling herself appealing to feminists and breaking ceilings, but in terms of Bill's affairs, I never felt that was our business.

I did believe that it was immoral what Bill Clinton did in terms of his adulterous ways, but I didn't even judge him as harshly, although was happened was directly based on his own preventable behavior, as those attempting to judge Obama due to his pastor's words--regardless of how good or bad or good and bad those words were.

If Obama's Pastor would have been a paragon or all that is virtuous and acceptable to those who set up the standards in which we are all to be judged, would he have been highlighted as he has?
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I don't find it acceptable for Clinton or Obama
but I am not mainstream America. This is identity politics at its worst. While I personally find Wright's comments distasteful and pathetically racist, I don't think Obama shares his views. The problem is, it is all about perception. I also believe Wright is doing this on purpose and out of spite.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Your post violates DU rules.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Whatever?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. So you don't respect this online community then.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I don't guess to figure out what is going on in Rev. Wright's head....
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 05:47 AM by FrenchieCat
But I will say that he is not running for President.

Bill Clinton was the President.

I find a difference here....and yet, it is Obama being judged as somehow flawed because of all of those "others" that would judge him now. I find that wicked...and intellectually dishonest.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. She exercised her opportunistic judgment
when she didn't leave her cheating husband. Allowing yourself to be abused for years, for political gain, is a very serious character flaw.

Being open to a variety of ideas, like Obama, is a character attribute.

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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Stop judging others
Judge yourself (but be kind).

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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. But wait, didn't the Clinton's call on the Rev Wright for assistance
during their marital disharmony? How does that affect your feelings of Hillary?
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. But that was before he started hatin on Whitey
c'mon, let's get with the program.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Oh, is that the official statement from the Clinton camp on their involvement with Wright?
eom
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. I should have added the sarcasm thingy
nt
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Or maybe I should have used it. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Two words.
"Testify"

and

"Amen"
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. Great post, FC!
Thanks for sharing this. k&r
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. They're coming for you and your husband? Who?
Wright seems to be enjoying all the attention, he's got a book coming out about all this! Can you imagine if you had that kind of exposure,

it would be awesome.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. without the Obama connection who would buy it?
The lil egomaniac saw Obama as an opportunity to get a national stage
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Who's coming for Michelle and Barack?
Silly OP.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. Good points
And at this point Frenchy, small consolation that it may be, I'd vote for ya.

Julie
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
33. Now, that is a pledge that I will cherish......
Considering our history.

Thanks for your perhaps future support, as it is appreciated. :thumbsup:
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
17. Barack Obama's Pastor is fair game.
And should be.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Fair Game for WHAT?
If you want to attack him because of him, then by all means do so. If you want to draw Obama into it, then your argument is specious, and you are no better than the idiots on the idiot box who keep perpetrating this fraud of a controversy. I call BULLSHIT on you and them.

Not that it matters though, enjoy your fake fucking outrage.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Agreed.
The man put himself in the crosshairs by voluntarily going on the public political stage.

He was the mentor, spiritual guide, and pseudo-father to a Presidential candidate. By Obama consorting with this man for 20 years, he made it a character issue. Sorry, that's a fact.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Is attending a church the same as consorting WITH???
What fresh hell is THIS??
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
20. Fascinating. Two weeks ago, after reading your posts, I

googled Black Panthers to see if they, or descendants, were still active in No. California. The angry rhetoric seemed that familiar. (Obviously, I'm old enough to remember those days). Apparently that group is not active.
Perhaps some of the sentiment and fury truly is?


On the other hand--
Being married to a preacher's kid and closely associated with her parents and church for many years, I agree with the differentiation you made between your husband's style, training and personality as opposed to those of the senior pastor. We could find that in many, if not all, denominations.

IMO, who is or has been associated with whom is far less important than which ideas and attitudes are put forth by candidates themselves or their family members or advisers.

Off to work I go...




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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. So we forget about Obama b/c of his pastor but ignore the character or lack thereof of the Clintons.
It's amazing.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. Excellent, thought provoking post
--for those still capable of thought.

Recommended. :thumbsup:







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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
28. Hey FrenchieCat, 'they're' coming for my husband and me too....
They truth is, our mainstream culture lives with suspicion...
suspicion of anyone who questions the status quo,
suspicion of anyone who is different.
As Americans we pride ourselves on our 'rugged individualism.'
but that's a joke. Even John McCain totally reversed his initial
'straight talk express' maverick status if it hampered his run for
Geo. W.'s base.
And, especially for non-white people, don't stand out... get along to get along.
Our contemporary culture is suspicious of people of faith, seeing anyone with 'religion'
as unstable, unreliable, unscientific, uneducated, and weak.

That's how the media is attempting to portray Rev. Wright, and it bleeds over
to any of us in that calling. It is shameful.

As a pastor, I will defend Wright's right to preach and speak out.
He is a pastor in the prophetic tradition, and altho has a fiery style that may offend some folks,
his theological/political views are similar to mine, and I support him.

As a citizen, I will defend Wright's consitutional guarantee for freedom
of speech, and freedom of religion.

His style is not my style, but its his right to be who God created him to be.
It's his perfect right to speak in defense of his church, his tradition, his past,
and his calling. SAd thought, that this paints SEnator Obama is a negative light.

There's another aspect to this that is downright embarrasssing:
In Right Wing circles, flamboyant, outrageous religious leadership is admired:
look at our political past: Pat Robertson, Jerry FAlwell, Oral Roberts, Rev. Hagey, Rod Parsely,
etc etc,just turn on the television.. and for the most part, the rural/blue collar constituency
of our electorate just loves those pastors, and swallows their most bizarre statements of faith.

But to be a Left Wing pastor, you must be above reproach: Jim Wallace, Tony Campolo, Jim MOyers,
no flashiness, no outrageous behavior... and for many in the progressive community, even being a person of faith is selling out. For many even here at DU, religion is a crutch, and people of faith are viewed as deficient. The comments I have heard because I've been open about my faith and my career choice... !! And yet we are 'progressive.'

Sadly, the lines that divide us along political lines are even more pronounced.
We keep drawing those lines, putting up battlements, and acquiring more weapons to use
against one another.

I remember a remarkable statement from seminary: whenever we draw a line separating us from
others, Jesus always stands with those we shut out.

Hang in there Frenchie! I love your commentary, and I keep you in my prayers.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. FrenchieCat...
Awesome post. :hug:
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
32. our country is destined for mediocrity and corruption
Edited on Tue Apr-29-08 08:37 AM by npincus
because of the STUPIDITY of the majority. Want proof? How the hell do Americans trust the same corporations (media) that sold them on B*sh's Iraq War to do the job of journalists and not propagandists?


I always thought Barack was too good to be true, and our corrupt corporate media would take him down.



Hell yes, I am bitter.

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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
35. Frenchie, you are wise
:thumbsup:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you for your post and giving your
perspective, FC. Makes all the sense in the world to me. Send it to the NYT or WaPo!

I would like to see the new pastor and members of the congregation make a statement that they don't hold with those particular beliefs of Wright'.

This whole thing just makes me so sad -- it's just so WRONG.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
37. FrenchieCat, and hubby, I thank you both. A lot. This is better
feasted on after the fact, and makes it that much truer. :hug:
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
38. It is simply unfair and un-American to judge someone on the basis of their associates
It is simply unfair and un-American to judge someone on the basis of their friends' or associates' expressed thoughts or connections. I think it would be the rare person indeed who would emerge unscathed.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
39. Frenchie, thank you (once again) for your perspective.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
40. Few of us could stand under the abusive scruitiny that Obama has
been under.....

(My own associations extend from living with street people at 15 to buying drugs from the CIA in Vietnam to taking drugs with Hells Angels in San Francisco to hanging out with the radical left - the SDS (Students for Democratic Society) to the Pentecostal church and back......)

I don't have the faith Obama has, either in God, or in the United States, to put up with what he and his family have gone through and what they are GOING to go through at the hands of the Republicans.

But I'm glad he does. He'll make a fine President and an even greater example of the kind of grace under unbearable pressure we ALL could learn from.


Thanks for sharing, FrenchieCat - This Wright bashing must have been extremely difficult for you.

Hang in there.


C
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
41. WOW FrenchieCat
I know so much more about you and your husband now. This is a very interesting and thought-provoking post. Thank you.

I hope more people can read this and recognize that churchgoers CAN'T be held responsible for anything their Pastor says. I'm not very religious but I'm sure many religious individuals, including those on the right, can understand this.

I think this is why even Mike Huckabee has been defending Obama and his relationship with Wright. He realizes that churchgoers don't always agree with what their pastor says and they can't be held responsible for anything their pastor says.

For people to say Obama should have simply gotten up and walked out is extremely insulting. Thank you again.

K&R
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-30-08 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
42. !
:hug:
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