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'Bill is not the same': The dangers of lengthy heart bypass surgery.

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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:27 PM
Original message
'Bill is not the same': The dangers of lengthy heart bypass surgery.
A couple of weeks ago, many here were rightly offended by a post an article titled 'Bill Clinton;s Madness. Here is a non-political report by the BBC on the dangers of lengthy cardiac surgery:

Brain damage risk from slow heart ops
BBC News, Sunday, 5 March, 2000

The length of time taken to operate is crucial.

Lengthy heart operations increase the risk of subtle long-term brain problems caused by tiny fat particles lodging in the brain, experts have found.

The research team has measured for the first time the precise number of these tiny particles which break free, travel in the blood, then stick in the brain.

And they found that patients who spent the longest time attached to heart bypass machines had many more than those whose operations were completed more quickly.

For every extra hour spent on the bypass machine, the amount of "microemboli", as the particles are called, almost doubled...

The team wrote: "Current estimates indicate that more than 50% of patients who undergo bypass grafting have neurologic or neuropsychological deficits during the first week after surgery.

"Ten to 30% have long-term or permanent deficits and between 1% and 5% suffer severe disability or death."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/665400.stm
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. ........or, it could be he's always been a jerk, but hid it before now
:shrug:
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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Bill is a kind man.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I like the way you always have something nice to say about the
Clinton's. I really mean this, not being sarcastic..and this is from a Obama supporter...the posts I have seen from you, you never make mean remarks about Obama..
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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Thank you.
:hug:
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Which Was Kinder?
Edited on Sat Apr-26-08 10:53 PM by MannyGoldstein
Executing the mentally retarded prisoner, or kidnapping people to be tortured abroad (aka "extraordinary renditions"),
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Yossariant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. Ya mean that cop-killer who attempted suicide by shooting himself in the head?
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. I say
He did inhale. And so did she.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. We're all jerks down deep, he's just lost his ability to control it
He's like Sophia on The Golden Girls, after she had that stroke and would say whatever cockamamy thing would come to her mind.

But really I don't think he's that different than any of us.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I've seen him speak recently
and he's still quite sharp.

I don't think dementia is approaching anytime soon.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm an RN, and until a doctor who has actually examined him
says this, it's nothing but speculation and frankly is seen by me as a way to try and explain his actions.


A doctor who examines him, needs to make this statement. NOT a doctor who hasn't ever laid eyes on him other than TV.

Real tests have to be performed, such as an EEG, or and MRI of the brain to make that diagnosis.

Anything less, is frankly irresponsible speculation.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. you know it, Sunset
:thumbsup:
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I saw another article on this ...I'm not sure but it could have been The Hill..
It was saying that people close to bill had thought he had changed or didn't seem as sharp..and then it went on about this operation could be the reason..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. There is nothing irresponsible about trying to make sense of your experience.
Not a thing.

While M.D.s have the license to diagnose, responsible people use their own brains to gather information and to come to conclusions. The medical profession doesn't have a corner on that market.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'll agree with that, but when a person
tries to attach a medical reason for his actions, without having examined him with the proper tests, then it is speculation.

If it was a social reason being speculated, I have no issue with that, it is subject to interpretation by society at large, based on our experiences.

A medical reason, especially one as serious as that, needs to be left to physicians aided by medical tests, otherwise it is pure speculation and is irresponsible.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It is in no way irresponsible to try to find a plausible solution to a problem.
I can see how it would be objectionable to try to slam President Clinton in some way by tagging him with a pseudo medical label a la right wing.

That would be irresponsible. That would be reprehensible. That clearly isn't happening here.

Many of us have noticed that Bill Clinton's performance has changed, even deteriorated. And some of us would rather think about it than simply attack him like trolls.

And, I got my brain at birth. I'm free to speculate as much as I want until the Department of Homeland Security gives me a lobotomy.

Not to mention, the whole category "medical reason" is a construct. And frankly, I've known too many doctors, lol, to feel any kind of reverence for it whatsoever.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I have noticed the personality "change"
Edited on Sat Apr-26-08 11:15 PM by SunsetDreams
in Bill Clinton as well. I don't know if it's due to medical reasons or maybe his passion as a Husband coming out for his wife.

We tend to protect the ones we love at all costs, and go to great lengths to do it.

I'm not attacking him at all, I am stating from a medical standpoint what I know to be true. It very well could be due to his bypass surgery, but I cannot support that without evidence such as tests.

Where is his actual heart surgeon speaking out on this?

Why is it that a Physician who claims to have "interviewed" his heart surgeon speaking out? One who hasn't looked at the evidence himself. I find this suspicious.

Frankly it isn't fair to Bill Clinton, to have someone saying this about him publicly. Did Bill Clinton agree to it? There is patient confidentiality to consider here.

If this is not true, I would fully support Bill Clinton suing the Physician who is making these claims.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. People take advantage of the position of public figures.
Just as public figures take advantage of their positions to forward their agenda.

I really don't care about some shyster trying to make a buck by doing a Frist on Clinton.

And I don't need a degree in medicine to notice the deficits and to worry and wonder about them.

What really concerns me, as just a person, is that in the middle of all this tumult, Bill Clinton may not be getting attended to as he might be if his life was less subject to public pressures. And, that would be a shame.

I'd much rather be furious with him if I knew for a fact that he was healthy and in good hands. lol
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I hear you sfex,
Edited on Sat Apr-26-08 11:57 PM by SunsetDreams
I guess I'm speaking more in a protective mode of patients right now due to patient confidentiality.

I'll be the first to admit that I feel let down by the Clintons, but I am in no way heartless if there truly is a medical reason for it.

I just can't medically make that jump, without facts.

I guess that's a drawback from being in this profession, we like our facts lol

I am sure the schedule that he has had to keep, can't be good for him. I have worried about him on several occasions. From an observation standpoint, he hasn't looked well the last few years.

I have also wondered about his BP levels because it seems more and more, his face is just beat red.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. It's hard to maintain any level of privacy when you're always in the public eye.
The flip side is, by being in the public eye, you subject yourself to public scrutiny. Been there, surfed the buffet.

He looks so fragile sometimes and what comes out of his mouth just doesn't jive with that so very smart man many of us came to take for granted. Here's hoping he is getting good care.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I agree,
I hope he is getting the care he needs with regular checkups.

He deserves nothing less!
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sakura Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Well said.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Larry McMurtry wrote a fascinating account
of his radical change following heart bypass. He was once a consummate bookaholic. Writing pained him because it took away from his book collecting/reading time. Managing his bookstores pained him because it took away from his writing time. His happy immersion in literature stopped cold after the surgery. He couldn't muster an interest in either reading or writing and it so distressed him, he spent over a year in a room at his friend's house doing nothing except stewing in his lassitude.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Physicality happens.
Damn.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ah, a graduate of the Bill Frist School of Telediagnosis.
The freepers used to post this sort of thing back in the late 90s. I guess it really is true that whatever goes out of style comes back sooner or later.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Looks like his dignity was the first casualty.
And his compassion took a close second.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. How many more reputable studies do you want.?
"The research, which appears in the current issue of the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease (http://www.j-alz.com ), pinpoints stress and trauma of the surgery as the major cause for the increased risk.

Led by Benjamin Wolozin, MD, PhD, professor of pharmacology at BUSM, researchers compared 5,216 people who underwent coronary artery bypass graft surgery (CABG) and 3,954 people who had a percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty (PTCA) in 1996 and 1997. Over the course of five years, 78 of the patients who had bypass surgery and 41 of those who had angioplasty developed Alzheimer's disease."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/0508250722...

NONE of these particular studies has been posted by Freepers, Monosyllable political hit pieces are more their style. None of these papers, are contain sort of speculation about President Clinton.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. I have no idea if it has anything to do with his surgery
But it's very evident that Bill Clinton's campaigning skills are not what they once were in the 1990's.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. Surgery or not there is a bitterness and an anger that I don't
remember.

I have met Bill Clinton and he was charming and calm.

Now we see him flying off the hook and turning on people that loved him.

We don't have to be MD's to use our eyes and realize that something is not the same.

He is different and it is not pretty.
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Rene Donating Member (758 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Happened to my son - heart operation to repair mitral valve
then he developed staph infection and they had to open chest again...debride the sternum...leave chest open for 3 days and do a muscel flap to close. Intensive antibiotic therapy. He's struggled with his memory ever since. NONE of the Dr's told him what happens to the brain during bypass.....either before or after. He mentioned it in a Heart Surgery support group meeting and everyone piped in with their own experiences. He finally learned what was happening with his memory.....both short and long term. It's a struggle all the time.
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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I am sorry to hear that.
Be well.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm not a fan of this line of attack...
Be careful when you fight monsters.....you know the rest
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thank you! n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I don't think it is an attack. Some of us are mad at the Clintons
AND notice a difference in the president. Imagine that.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yeah but to blame it and attack him for having heart surgery is morbid and unnecessary
If you pay attention at all, you know that I hate the Clintons more then most. This thread is just stupid.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Who is attacking him for having heart surgery?
I'm sorry, I don't see that at all.



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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Its an obvious low blow.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I sure don't read it that way -- but then, my viewpoint isn't mainstream DU.
:)
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. The OP has a point. I have thought about this too, However, he doesn't seem to have any obvious
neurological problems. Not like McCain, who is obviously unfit to run for president. And Bill is just running for spouse.
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
35. I have No idea if it applies to Bill Clinton but I have seen this phenom.
My Dad had multiple Open Heart surgeries over a period of years and there was a noticeable difference after each surgery. We noticed it right after his first open heart and asked his Doc about it and were told it is a fairly common thing to see changes in temperament, cognitive function, and behaviors after an open heart surgery.

In part, I do think it is has a physical component, but I also think that coming face to face with that level of illness (no matter the condition) will impact on how you view life afterward. Heart Disease is really creepy stuff and it messes with you and everyone around you on an emotional level.

I know a heart transplant patient whose family encountered the same thing with him. This is not something to dismiss if you know a cardiac patient, and Bill did undergo open heart. I hate for anybody to have to face this stuff, but the surgery probably did need to be done--the risks were outweighed by the benefits, I guess.

As for Bill, I dunno. I assume he is entitled to be human and suffer with frailties of the flesh just like the rest of us. It would not shock me to hear that open heart surgery maybe left him with some changes in his life...


:shrug:


Laura
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
36. All these personality experts here with judgments from miniscule sound bites by Bill Clinton....
I was on that machine just a little over a year ago and my personality has not changed. I am told that I am the same asshole I was before the surgery.

Maybe improved, because now my heart pumps blood faster and further than it ever did before. So my brain is functioning better than it ever did. Can't you tell? Read my posts.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. LOL!
Good for you!

:applause:
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BlueStater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Now THIS is Rovian tactics
You're suggesting the man has brain damage because of his heart surgery? Every day I'm finding more similarities between this place and FreakRepublic.
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Independent-Voter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
38. Screw 'em. Bill's acting like an asshole, period. This Frist-like excuse isn't changing that fact.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-27-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. exactly
I'm very distrustful of them after this charade, because HILLARY didn't have heart surgery and she's behaving as bad or worse than he is!



pro-Obama and Anti-McSame items added each week!
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