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Isn't it common knowledge that Israel has nukes?

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bermudat Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:24 PM
Original message
Isn't it common knowledge that Israel has nukes?
When Senator Clinton was interviewed by Olbermann, she was talking about about nuclear retaliation if Iran

bombs Israel. She said if Iran gets nukes, it will set off an arms race and Iran could not be allowed to be

the only country with nukes. I've read many times on DU that Israel has nukes. Is it true or not? Hmmm,

who to believe, Senator Clinton or the posters on DU?
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Officially, no. Unofficially, yes.
I have heard some of my professors say that Israel's program is probably at the level of France's qualitatively and at the level of China's quantitatively.
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. I really don't think she thinks Israel doesn't have nukes . . .
Could she?
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. It was confirmed that it was tested in South Afrika when it was under
apartheid.
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MrModerate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. Yeah, my understanding is that they have . . .
About 100 warheads and the means to deliver them with "precision and confidence" (although precision when you're talking about dropping a little piece of the sun onto the surface of the earth is probably relative).

My wonderment was the phrase quoted by the original poster -- I can't believe that Clinton doesn't know/would say that Israel has nukes. Unless, because the government of Israel has never publicly acknowledged them, it's "statesmanlike" not to mention it.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. If we mentioned that Israel has nukes, we couldn't draw as bright a line for the rubes.
It just wouldn't be half as threatening for, say, Iran to have
nukes if every fool in the electorate also understood that
Israel already has ten or twenty times as many nukes.

Tesha
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow. I can't prove it, but if you asked me (and you did) I would say they've had it for 20 years.
I wouldn't even have questioned whether Israel has nukes - I'm sure they have nukes. I'm positive I've heard many times over the last decade or two that they have nukes.

:shrug:

But now that you raise the question, I begin to doubt my thinking...
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. never mind thought you said Iran
Edited on Mon Apr-21-08 11:30 PM by SunsetDreams
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nyccitizen Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. They have them but do not acknowledge them.

They have up to 400 nuclear weapons but are not a declared nuclear power, like the US/China/Russia/etc. The IDF keeps their military cards close to their chest, for obvious reasons. It is taboo for an American or Israeli politician to acknowledge or discuss Israel's nuclear arsenal.
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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. delete
Edited on Mon Apr-21-08 11:30 PM by SunsetDreams
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't remember her saying "only" about Iran having nukes
let me go back and listen...
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. Israel and weapons of mass destruction
Israel and weapons of mass destruction
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel is widely believed to possess a substantial arsenal (an estimated 100 to 200) of nuclear weapons,<1> and maintains intercontinental-range ballistic missiles to deliver them. Officially Israel neither confirms nor denies possessing nuclear weapons. The U.S. Congress Office of Technology Assessment has recorded Israel as a country generally reported as having undeclared chemical warfare capabilities, and an offensive biological warfare program.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass...
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Jimmy Carter said it was common knowledge in "Palestine Peace Or Apartheid"
That's "official" enough for me. :shrug:
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bermudat Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks for the info.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. i'm pretty sure it's an open secret.
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Diamond Dog Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Israel is a rogue state and ought to be regarded as such. n/t
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on the internets. n/t.
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Skarbrowe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm sure she meant nukes in the hands of countries against Israel.
She was probably talking about the whole region being Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan,..oh I know I'm forgetting something obvious. And yes, people don't talk about Israel having nukes, but it's one of those strange things everyone seems to know. Especially the Arab countries. I took that she meant that it would be put out there that there is an umbrella of protection for Israel and the whole region and if Iran did go all martydom type fanatical and hit Israel with the big one, she as President and representative of the United States would let them know that there would be immediate retaliation from us since Israel would..I don't even want to say it. This is tough talk. Scary talk. But I think it's better to get it out in the open. I agreed with Obama when he said we should strike at Pakistan if we have no other choice or on "actionable intelligence". Hate those words, though. Gawd, I sound like a hawk. No wonder Hillary gets skewered when she talks about the really bad stuff. Hope and change for the future really are more uplifting.
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Diamond Dog Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why should we regard Israel as exceptional, when it has transgressed against surrounding nations?
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Skarbrowe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Personally, I don't. But you have to be pro-Israel to get elected President here.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-21-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. Long article...from April/June 2001

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Nuke_Nation.ht...
Nuke Nation
Israel's weapons of mass destruction
by John Steinbach
CovertAction Quarterly, April / June 2001

Since the Gulf War in 1991, much attention has been Lavished on an alleged threat from Iraqi weapons of mass destruction while the major culprit in the region, Israel, has been largely ignored.
With between 200 and 500 thermonuclear weapons and a sophisticated delivery system, Israel, population 6 million, recently supplanted Britain as the world's 5th Largest nuclear power. It may now rival France and China in the size and sophistication of its nuclear arsenal.

Possessing chemical and biological weapons, an extremely sophisticated nuclear arsenal, and an aggressive strategy for their actual use, Israel provides the major regional impetus for the development of weapons of mass destruction, and represents an acute threat to peace and stability in the Middle East.
----------------------------------------------------
THE ISRAELI BOMB
The Israeli nuclear program began in the Late 1940s. It was established at the Department of Isotope Research at the Weissman Institute of Science under the direction of Ernst David Bergmann, "the father of the Israeli bomb," who in 1952 established the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission.
From the very beginning the U.S. was heavily involved in developing Israel's nuclear capability, training Israeli nuclear scientists and providing nuclear-related technology, including a small "research" reactor in 1955 under the "Atoms for Peace" program.
It was France, however, that provided the bulk of nuclear assistance to Israel, culminating in construction of Dimona, a heavy water-moderated, natural uranium reactor and plutonium reprocessing operation situated near Bersheeba in the Negev desert.
Israel had been active in the French nuclear weapons program from its inception, and provided critical technical expertise. Dimona became operational in 1964 and plutonium reprocessing began shortly thereafter. Despite Israeli claims that Dimona was "a manganese plant, or a textile factory," the extreme security measures employed belied the bogus claims.
-----------------------------------------------------------
SOUTH AFRICA AND THE US In 1977, the Soviet Union warned the U.S. that satellite photos indicated South Africa was planning a nuclear test in the Kalahari desert. The apartheid regime backed down under pressure from the Carter administration.
On September 22, 1979, a U.S. satellite detected an atmospheric test of a small thermonuclear bomb in the Indian Ocean off South Africa, but because of Israel's involvement the report was quickly whitewashed by a carefully selected scientific panel, kept in the dark about important details. Later it was Learned through Israeli sources that there were actually three tests of miniaturized Israeli nuclear artillery shells.
The Israeli/South African collaboration did not end with the bomb testing, but continued until the fall of apartheid, especially with the developing and testing of medium range missiles and advanced artillery. In addition to uranium and test facilities, South Africa provided Israel with Large amounts of investment capital, while Israel provided a major trade outlet undermining the international economic sanctions imposed on the apartheid regime.
Although the French and South Africans were primarily responsible for the Israeli nuclear program, the U.S. deserves a Large part of the blame.
An observer remarked the Israeli nuclear program "was possible only because of calculated deception on the part of Israel, and willing complicity on the part of the U.S." Beginning with the provision of a small reactor in the mid-1950s, the U.S. played a critical role in Israel's nuclear plans.
Israeli scientists were trained largely at U.S. universities and were generally welcomed at the nuclear weapons Labs. In the early 1960s, the controls for the Dimona reactor were obtained clandestinely from a company called Tracer Lab, the main supplier of U.S. military reactor control panels, purchased through a Belgian subsidiary apparently with the acquiescence of the U.S. intelligence community.
In 1971, the Nixon administration approved the sale to Israel of hundreds of krytons, a type of high speed switch necessary to the development of sophisticated nuclear bombs. And in 1979 President Carter provided Tel Aviv ultra-high resolution photos from the KH11 spy satellite, which were used two years later to bomb the Iraqi Osirak reactor. Throughout the Nixon and Carter administrations, and accelerating dramatically under Reagan, U.S. advanced technology transfers to Israel continued and continue to the present.
-----------------------------------------------
Another major use of the Israeli bomb is to compel the U.S. to act in Israel's favor, even when it runs counter to its own strategic interests. As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project, wrote: "We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, 'If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs"'
During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Henry Kissinger and President Richard Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. At that time the then Israeli Ambassador, Simcha Dinitz, is quoted as saying: "If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and... we will have to draw very serious conclusions..."



John Steinbach is a graduate of the University of Michigan School of Natural Resources and the Environment. With his wife Louise Franklin-Ramirez, he is the co-author of the map and database "Deadly Radiation Hazards USA." He is active in the Washington, D.C.-area peace and justice movement
and many more articles/books available here.....
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/IsraelWatch.ht...
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WA98070 Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. Tom Clancey says they do; and he thought of using airplanes to crash into ...
buildings long before 9/11, so they must.

If she knows classified information she cannot reveal it, even if it is "common knowledge."
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. This thread obviously needs some nominations for the info it provides...n/t
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. neither

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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. The whole program was chronicled by a whistleblower years ago.
It's no secret at all.

Here's an interesting video about the Dimona nuclear complex.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12869.h...
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. The whistleblower was Mordechai Vanunu
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It is to the credit of Israeli PR that Mr. Vanunu's sacrifice is little understood today
Hard to believe that anybody has to wonder if there are Israeli nukes...
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I couldn't imagine a more fascistic scenario than his abduction and imprisonment.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 04:23 PM by izzybeans
Oh wait, extraordinary rendition...it approaches that.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. they already did that to him...
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Did
they torture him?

I'm guessing yes.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. i don't know aboutthat, but i highly doubt his incarceration was a pleasant one...
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. As I recall, shortly after he got out the Israeli gov't tried to put him back in
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
22. yes
anyone who claims that they do not is ignorant or a liar
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
23. It's quite possibly the only reason she exists now at all.
Without a Nuclear deterrent I believe Israel would be toast.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. Israel is widely-believed to have several hundred nuclear warheads, along with a 2nd Strike ability
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 07:50 AM by leveymg
against any potential target, including China and Russia (and the U.S.).

They don't really need a U.S. nuclear "umbrella", and Israeli strategic planners don't really want one because it fully ties their fate to ours. They'd automatically become a target if say, the U.S. were to intervene against China over Taiwan, or a similar scenario.

It isn't as simple as just deterring Iran, which is already deterred.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. they have a few... 3 or 4 iirc, but i could be wrong.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You could be wrong and usually you are .... n/t
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. current estimate is 65, they have 2 or 3 in the air at all times for defense... that is what I was
thinking of.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. omg, just keep posting, say anything....
it just gets better and better...

:rofl:
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. have you made a substantive post yet? i still have yet to find one?
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 04:59 PM by Texas Hill Country
and yeah, i looked.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. i don't have to take my warmup jacket off for you guys...
:rofl:
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. Common knowledge for many decades, since at least the 1970's.
Edited on Tue Apr-22-08 04:17 PM by closeupready
I think I first read about it in David Wallechinsky's bestseller "The Book of Lists"
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
37. Quite frankly, I'm afraid of "US" having nukes more than anyone else!
With Commander Dumbass in charge of the button... jeez... I'm surprised he hasn't let 'em fly by now.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes! Yes! Yes! So why is HRC swaggering and at the same time playing perpetual victim?
:crazy: :nuke:
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
40. Olmert admits Israel has nuclear weapons (13/12/2006)
<snip>

"A decades-long silence about Israel's possession of nuclear weapons has been broken in an apparent slip of the tongue by the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, during a visit to Europe.

However, his admissions has sparked controversy at home, where one of his ministers urged a return to silence about the country's nuclear capabilities.

"I would suggest that all those who want to talk about the issue, for God's sake and for the sake of Israel's security, stop it," said the Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben Eliezer.

Currently visiting Germany, Mr Olmert appeared to admit in an interview on Monday with a German television station that Israel was among the states that possess an atomic bomb.

He said: "Iran openly, explicitly and publicly threatens to wipe Israel off the map.

"Can you say that this is the same level, when they are aspiring to have nuclear weapons, as France, America, Russia and Israel?"

more
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-22-08 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
44. Um, she never said Israel didn't have nukes. It was the other countries in the region.
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