If SD's break for Clinton and end this thing early - one thing added

[crankychatter]

Seriously...

They buy the Fl/MI popular vote argument

They assert that 150 delegate lead is not substantial

They buy the Clinton meme RE Electability (you've seen the MSM spin and you know what the story is there)

ask yourself... how will THAT feel?

What will YOU do?

also on edit:
EVERY ANTI-CORRUPTION, ANTI-WAR CANDIDATE FOR FORTY YEARS HAS LOST
the Corrupt Party insiders with the help of Corporate Media do it every time.

I don't want to hear that you'll vote Green, or NOT vote, or burn down Denver... or... anything inappropriate really... not in DU.

This may sink... but if you have a strategy for that little nightmare scenario, either to stop it from happening or after the fact... I'd love to hear it... even if it's inappropriate... email me.

on edit:

Clinton people, please do not defend me. Most of you are on ignore for questions regarding mental health already anyway.

I remember them all... JFK, RFK, MLK... Malcolm's message... I remember our anti-war candidates from the 60's all the way up to Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich...

They quit shooting them because now they character assassinate them through the media...

If you don't have a plan... if you want to deny history
you are whistling past the graveyard

[Buzz Clik]

1. I'm hiding this tread early to beat the rush.

[jgraz]

2. I'll be too busy dealing with the monkeys flying out of my butt to worry about voting.

[Shakespeare]

4. LOL

Perfect response. :thumbsup:

[book_worm]

3. It's not going to happen

Obama may well lose PA tomorrow but he'll be back with solid wins in NC, Oregon, South Dakota and Montana, and an even chance in Indiana. She will not get ahead in pledged delegates and she will not leap ahead in popular votes.

[PBS Poll-435]

9. She is likely to surpass Obama's popular vote number tomorrow

Including Michigan & Florida (Which, personally, I am agnostic about.)

[lojasmo]

25. You CAN NOT count Michigan. EOM

ALso, this is not a competition for the popular vote. It is a competition for the most pledged delegates.

If clinton wins this with supers (with a deficit in pledged delegates) I will be voting democrat on all DOWNTICKET races.

[PBS Poll-435]

Double-click dupe....

[PBS Poll-435]

32. I didn't say anything about that.

I just said that tomorrow begins her case for the SDs.

She will have a lead in the popular vote with every state counted (even the highly disputed ones.)

[Capn Sunshine]

50. The Supers are pretty settled in

I know you don't want to hear this, but most are staying neutral until post Indiana. They have already "broken"

They are mostly disgusted with the scorched earth thing which is working against party interests.

[PBS Poll-435]

52. LOL...sure they are...

We will see. It is going to be a fun 2 weeks after tomorrow!

[tritsofme]

59. Please refer me to the rule that says this is a competition for pledged delegates.

The rules say it is a competition to get to 2024.

Pledged delegates are no more arbitrary than popular vote.

[newmajority]

26. Does she get the "popular" vote from Narnia, Eternia, and NeverNeverLand as well?

Because they're just as real as the Michigan and Florida numbers are.

[crankychatter]

41. you're absolutely right

it's a crazy argument that the klinton kamp has

but the media is lapping it up and this IS the public presentation

everyone isn't on DU reading MadF's wonderfully informative posts

ignored up there is an exception... most folks make decisions based upon the information they have... some people make decisions despite the information they have

if they try to pull that argument off... confusing it with sundry other issues...

enough of the public will believe it for them to get away with it

[Bake]

47. Why did you spell Clinton and Camp with k's?

Perhaps you meant to write "klintoon?" There's another web site where that sort of shit is welcome. DU isn't it.

Bake

[lojasmo]

56. Her kampaign is like a krazy klown kar. EOM.

[Bake]

57. Freeper? EOM

[lojasmo]

61. No. I OPPOSE the candidate who would obliterate Iran. EOM

[SoCalDem]

58. You forgot about OZ....

The Munchkins are offended

[juajen]

60. She supported a re-vote, which your candidate refused to do.

Even in a revote, she would have clobbered him.

[snooper2]

5. I will have just won the lotto if that happens...

So, I'll be happy living in the Bahamas :)

[MercutioATC]

6. I'll do what I did in 2004...hold my nose and vote for the Dem.

Thankfully, I see your scenario as a statistical longshot.

[natrat]

24. what dem? there is only some scumbag neocon corporatist as an alternative

[CBGLuthier]

7. Leave this sad joke of a country behind

McCain or Hillary, either way this country is fucked if they get in office.

[crankychatter]

38. stay and fight

now AND, then

we just need a free press

Obama might make it happen for us

If we can hang on to the internet long enough...

maybe duplicate what he has done, at the Congressional and State levels

with clean elections and alternative fund raising...

maybe...

[rinsd]

8. I only see SD's doing that under political cover.

And that political cover would be Clinton being close to or ahead of Obama in pledged delegates or popular vote.

If she wins PA but by less than 5 points, you could see SD's shift to Obama in an effort to end the race.

[newmajority]

10. The superdelegates aren't that stupid.

But if they were, my response would be unprintable.

[crankychatter]

20. I'd like to believe that too... in fact I think you're right BUT

I want the printed version of your plan, in my mailbox by 1700 hrs

[cali]

11. let me ask you this: How come, over the last three months, SDs have broken decisively

for Obama? To date they haven't bought the MI/FL argument. Why do you think that will suddenly change?

[crankychatter]

19. wel cali... since 1967 the corrupt Pro-War Dems have always won

they pull a rabbit out of their hats everytime

pretending it's not possible is nice... but short sighted and ignores history

[cali]

23. I didn't say it wasn't possible. I did hint that it's unlikely.

recent history is much more pertinant than your vague and false statement- which really is bullshit.

[crankychatter]

34. Jerry was moonbeamed - Dean was deanscreamed

it goes all the way back to 67

think of all the anti-war dems that have been marginalized in the media

think about what the DLC is, what it does and their lead in the complicity to Bush's Junta

there's nothing bullshit about it

[cali]

37. McGovern ring a bell?

Jimmy Carter? And fond as I am of Howard, he lost Iowa BEFORE the scream.

[crankychatter]

39. Jimmy Carter is WHY we have super Ds

my memory is just fine

but you can help

Clinton's war on the poor... NAFTA... CAFTA?

Now his wife's effort to support the neocon's push for more war... the Iran propoganda?

if you are asserting that corporatists and Democrats corrupted by the Military Industrial Complex don't effect the Party's internal process

then, I have to ask... how can you assert that I'm the one that crawled out from under a rock?

hm, sunshine?

[cali]

45. I'm not asserting anything of the kind. Of course they affect the party's

internal process, but I am suggesting, sweetie, that simplistic overly broad assertions lack intellectual rigor. Do try and think. Of course you skipped right over McGovern. YOU made an assertion that the nominating process has been controlled by a certain cabal, since 1967. I simply provided you with examples demonstrating that they'd hardly been wholly successful. Furthermore, Howard Dean IS the insider this year. I'm sick of simplistic garbage.

[crankychatter]

49. Dean's being isolated but I think you are right

but McGovern?

that is an old one

I was protesting outside a napalm distribution center with a vigil fire 24-7 back then...

before uncle sam through a net over me and I ended up shortly, working for RFKs California Campaign Chair... saddest man I ever met... a Captain

dispirited... leaderless... and trudging on

I ain't going there again

simplistic? This has been a conversation worth having, even if those totally focussed on the goddamn dog and pony show... want to crack jokes and insult me personally

you hopped on the bandwagon pretty quick there... and THAT, is the real deal

having no plan is folly

so do YOU have one?

If I've erred it's in assuming that Obama is much of a threat to the status quo... I'm only HOPING he is... and his refusing the PAC money is the one thing that gives me hope.

[cali]

12. let me ask you this: How come, over the last three months, SDs have broken decisively

for Obama? To date they haven't bought the MI/FL argument. Why do you think that will suddenly change?

[John Q. Citizen]

13. If? What if I won the lottery, how would I spend it? If? What if China decided to give us all their

money and weapons?

If?

What if Sen Clinton gets every single vote cast in PA?

Get real! Some people have way too much time on their hands. They can spend hours thinking and writing about 'what if?'

[DJ13]

14. Dorothy, its time to wake up!

[crankychatter]

15. If you want the SDs to end this sooner than later for Obama

How you feel about this, is how Clinton's people will feel about that...

The US MIC and Corporations use the MSM to DESTROY anti-corruption candidates...

They've been doing it successfully for decades

Having no alternative plan, is PURE FOLLY

[DearAbby]

16. I'd Call to see

if my Ex-mother-in-law, aka "The Church lady" had been raptured, then I would know for sure I was in hell...Then I would go outside to see if it had frozen over.

[Avalux]

17. If that happens, I will take a job outside the country.

Any small hope I have that our system works for the people will have been shattered. No point in staying here and going down with the ship because McCain will win the GE in such a scenario.

[crankychatter]

30. point taken but consider this please

The Republicans and Independents I know that are anti-War and anti-Bush and have WEPT OPENLY, for having voted for Bush...

ALL, now still have this RAGE against "liberals..."

And rather than FIGHT with US... they whine about moving out of the country or... more often... up into the hills with a cache' of arms...

I knew people would hop on this... but check it out

EVERYONE IS BEGGING THE SD'S to STEP IN FOR OBAMA

NOTHING will give Clinton's BS "disenfranchisement" meme MORE credibility than an SD end run around her campaign

[crankychatter]

18. As posted.. the media has destroyed anti-war, anti-corruption candidates for decades

It looks good for Obama now...

BUT... historically we lose

[natrat]

21. They Buy the superdelegates

[crankychatter]

27. dupe delete

.

[crankychatter]

28. This is worth top posting Nat... some more food for thought for you

They buy the SD's... true.

But the Obama, Dean-style end run around Corporate Campaign Financing via the Internet has thrown a Spaniard in the works.

Here is THE DEAL... will the internet be there for the SDs when THEY are running for the Senate, the Congress, the Mayor's office?

The answer is NO... they'll be on their own. Obama will be in the White House and old Halliburton... Boeing... name your poison... will be sending them away like unwanted beggars

[burythehatchet]

22. If I develo pthe ability to piss 87 Octane gasoline, how many leaks will it take to fill up my Honda

[backscatter712]

29. Not gonna happen.

That scenario is wishful thinking from the Clintonistas. Her campaign has been circling the drain for weeks.

[crankychatter]

36. well I'm not buying it either, never did

I've never been so hopeful... in my many, many years

but I'm not a fool

the MIC is VERY powerful

it's funny ya'all assume the exact opposite of what this is about...

why I posted it...

knee jerk, pretend it can't happen, assume I'm for Clinton... and play the PREDICTION game like you're sitting on a barstool...

Seahawks vs Broncos

this dog and pony show is artful and entertaining... but those are real bullets out there... real hunger... real environmental catastrophe... real enslavement by a corporately owned state...

coming to a city near you

[Independent-Voter]

31. We'll sure as hell not be voting for HRC or McCain if that's what you're asking

There's not a dime's difference between those two.

[ieoeja]

33. That might be the best thing that could happen in the long run.

Perceived-moderate-McCain whomping DLC-Hillary would have two results on "common wisdom":

1. Republics would conclude that McCain was the only Republic who could win in a year nobody thought the Republics stood a chance because he turned back the tide of extremism in their party, and

2. Democrats would conclude that the DLC 13-State, rollover-and-play-dead strategy had failed in a third straight presidential election and that maybe it's time to try actually advancing an agenda instead of playing defense election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election after election.


The one truly negative thought I have had about this election is that the defeat of a perceived moderate in McCain will just embolden the Republic Party to continue their efforts to drag this country kicking and screaming into a Feudalistic society (based on monetary power rather than military; but with pretty much the same results).

[crankychatter]

35. Historically accurate and dead on the money

I want to plan to avoid that...

everyone else wants to whistle past the graveyard and pretend history, even recent history, doesn't exist... ONLY THE RACE EXISTS to them

If I've erred here it is only in this... Obama is no leftist... not especially progressive...and not that big of a threat to the MIC...

BUT... he's free to do what he wants... he's running for president, not dictator... and that scares them to death

Look at the media now... look at Clinton's campaign...

this is a war... they want to target Iran and she's going to help them

Obama might not...

[ieoeja]

51. Obama "might" not.

Same here. Bill Clinton was a life-long Democrat who betrayed us. So it's a pretty good bet we can not trust Hillary who has never really even promised us much and whose own bio says she only switched to Democrat because of personal insults to her, not because of any overriding ideological concerns.

Conversely, Obama's decision to go into community activism straight out of college instead of a more lucrative and impressive corporate or criminal law suggests he might actually be a tiny bit progressive.

Oddly, I am for Obama because I believe *he* triangulates and that Hillary does *not*. I believe Hillary ends up in the center because she actually believes in rightwing economics and foreign policy with liberal social tolerance. I get the impression Obama has quite liberal goals, but knows an elected official can not force his ideas on the electorate or even through a Congress that will have much less liberal views than the vast majority of the American public.

Like he said about health care. If he were starting from scratch, he'd push for socialized healthcare. But he's not, so he will push for what he can get. I think he could actually get more than he is pushing for as a lot of American corporations have come around to embracing the idea. The insurance industry is large and important, but they are dragging down every - single - other - industry in the United States today by forcing them to compete against overseas corporations who take advantage of gov't supplied benefits.

Actually, I sometimes think every corporation in America should follow the hated Wal-Mart's strategy. They figured out the loophole. Let their workers go on Medicare/Medicaid instead of supplying the healthcare themselves. If every business in the United States did that tomorrow, Congress would have one of two ways out: force business to provide that health care, or turn Medicare/Medicaid into genuine universal healthcare.

We would end up with Kucinich's healthcare proposal by default!

[crankychatter]

53. That's brilliant

I just wanted you to know it was read and understood

you're one of the few that didn't speak to me like I'm an idiot

thanks

[BzaDem]

42. Except if McCain wins, the SCOTUS will put us in that society for the next 20 years

and no Democratic president will be able to do anything about it.

[Liberal Gramma]

43. Ask Bob Shrum about multiple election failures. It hasn't stopped him from trying

I think the DLC would continue their stampede to disaster. There will be nothing left to save if the Republicans have another shot at destroying the country.

[crankychatter]

46. I get to respond to your 666th posting

Clinton is repeating the Bush meme regarding Iran's nuclear aspirations

So, we are up against far MORE than Clinton, more than McCain

That's why I'm trying to shine the light on history...

Many of us have worked hard, had hope... had that hope dashed from the assassinations of the sixties to the character assassination of Obama...

regrouped... worked on local campaigns and national issues... born up under and tried to keep people informed in these dark, dark times.

I don't want to go underground again

I'm just not going to whistle past the graveyard... and pretend we're not in a death battle with the Cheney's of this country.... the Clintons

[Liberal Gramma]

48. Thanks for that

I agree with ya, we are in a life-and-death struggle with a powerful enemy. Every superhero we've had has been eliminated from the struggle, from Kennedy to MLK to Wellstone. I feel that Obama is our last hope and we had better reach out for this chance, because we'll never have it again.

[ieoeja]

54. I am an Occam's Razor kind of guy.

The simplest answer is probably the correct one. I tend to discount conspiracy theories. And I almost never blame a conspiracy where stupid can explain it just as well. Because we have all certainly seen enough stupid in our lives.

However...

Given: the DLC convinced the Democratic Party to embrace Reaganomics

Given: an Australian group modeled off our DLC was discredited when it was learned they were actually a front for Conservatives who wanted to hedge their bets on the elections: win a little with a Liberal victory or win a lot with a Conservative one

Given: the DLC gets most of their monetary backing from Conservative sources (which was seen as enough to discredit the Australian group; are we Americans just naive or what?)

Given: the DLC's blatant and repeated attacks on the Democratic Party since 2004

Then: the simplest answer is that our DLC is no different than the Australian DLC.


I seriously believe the DLC is a front group for the Republic Party. I firmly believe Richard Melon-Scaife and Rupert Murdoch (Aussie) are pushing for Hillary Clinton in the Democratic Party not because they believe she would be easier to defeat in the general election, but because they see her as the Democrat they would most like to see elected if the Republic candidate loses. For the Rightwing: McCain = win a lot; Hillary = win a little.

[Liberal Gramma]

55. Wow. I never thought of that

It sure makes sense. I have heard Bill Clinton described as the best Republican president we've ever had, meaning I suppose that his policies were Conservative-lite.

Obama is the unexpected development in their rush to power, in that case.

[IsItJustMe]

40. LOL Things are getting weird around here.

[crankychatter]

44. We just needed a jolt

the spectator sport speculation on PA

the "please super delegates, step in now..."


the narrow focus on the race without talking about the WAR WITH IRAN THAT IS COMING...

This is a primary about Iran... about the neocon agenda... about the influence of the MIC for the past seven years on the Democratic Leadership

pretending we're not up against more than Clinton and McCain is pure folly

from that movie JFK... at the beginning... when they find that lady on the roadside

"These are some serious mother fuckers"