Introducing the Obama Organizing Fellows - Grassroots for the General Election

[jefferson_dem]

:patriot:

Introducing the Obama Organizing Fellows

This summer we are looking for people who want to be a part of a new generation of leadership that believes, like Senator Obama, that real change comes from the ground up.

Fellows will be trained on the basics of organizing & campaign fundamentals and then placed in a community to carry out grassroots activities. Fellows will be asked to commit to a minimum of 30 hours per week and will:

participate in training on field organizing, messaging, and other activities
organize in a community, working in conjunction with grassroots leaders and campaign staff
continue to build the movement

Applications are due at the latest by Monday, May 5th at midnight eastern time. We strongly encourage individuals to apply early. Applicants should expect to receive further communication in May. Program participation will start on June 5 and run through the end of the summer.

Note: this is an unpaid position.

Questions? Please email [email protected].

GO HERE ---> http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/fellowsapp?source=www_feature

[MethuenProgressive]

1. No one from Florida or Michigan need apply.

[jefferson_dem]

2. Why?

Do you want them to disenfranchise themselves for the GE?

Hillary says MI election "is not going to count for anything" : ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULxxBz-PAjg

[flpoljunkie]

40. It is Hillary's camp, desperately needing "vote suppression" meme to flog, who refuse to negotiate.

[Tyler Durden]

3. Michigan Will Remember.

State Senator Tupac Hudson, chair of Michigan Campaign Obama, on orders from the lawyers for the National Campaign (and although there is no direct evidence, the DNC as well) TORPEDOED on TUESDAY AFTERNOON before a THURSDAY MORNING DEADLINE (put in place by the Republicans in the State Senate), an agreement from that SUNDAY to hold the primary redo. What he DIDN'T LIKE was that WE wanted to limit it to DEMOCRATS, and instead of voting "DEMOCRAT/NO CHOICE" Obama's campaign told them to do what the Republicans are doing in Pennsylvania: GAME THE SYSTEM by registering for the other party to screw up their primary. So we would have had to let the WHOLE STATE, including ALL of the Republicans vote in the Democratic Primary redo.

WE WILL REMEMBER.

[jefferson_dem]

4. If this story is true, Tupac was right.

Didn't MI have an open primary to begin with? Or is that only for elections that "don't count"?

[Tyler Durden]

7. We had an "Open Primary" the same day as the Republicans.

Back when that MEANT something.

Hey, I didn't "Game" the system. I didn't LIE and say I was a Republican just to screw with their primary. I voted undecided.

If YOU think it's a "good Idea" to INVITE the rePukes to game your primary with no penalty, essentially giving them ANY ANY PERSON WHO LIED two votes, then I don't understand your version of Democracy.

[DerekJ]

6. You are not making sense!! Let go of the caps lock, and start using paragraphs.

[Tyler Durden]

8. forget it. none of you guys gives a damn anyway.

we'll remember though. and we'll remember who decided they didn't need our votes.

how's that for no caps?

and paragraphs?

[DerekJ]

11. Good,

My understanding, is that you are blaming BO for the fiasco at MI, Right?!!

[Tyler Durden]

14. We had a redo in the bag. His campaign told Sen. Hudson to crash it.

Is there another interpretation?

[DerekJ]

19. So before I continue, you do agree that Hillary was complacent in disfranchising you,

and you do acknowledge it was your state legislators fault for breaking the DNC rule to begin with?

But the only person you are mad at now is Obama for refusing a re-do, right?

[Tyler Durden]

21. No.

I agree that DEAN went far past the penalties in the rules, AND he ignored that NH, IA AND SC also violated the letter of the rules.

If you want to stick to your guns, then I guess you have to support the 50% rule for all of those states, don't you?

OOPS, those were OBAMA states. Can't have THAT can we. So much for all of you and following the rules, fair play and honesty.

[DerekJ]

24. What if I showed you the pledge Hillary has signed stating that 100% of the delegates will be

stripped?!!

And what If I showed you a video of her acknowledging that?

Can we then move on?!!

[Tyler Durden]

28. Not having VOTED for Clinton, do you think I CARE what she said?

The rules were violated by MI, FL, AND NH, IA and SC, then stretched by the DNC.

Frankly, I'll probably vote not committed AGAIN, but if a candidate wants my vote in the GE, they'd damned well better DO SOMETHING about this.

It could be a dozen visits lying about funding jobs, but they better do SOMETHING.

By the way, where is the damned DNC in all of this? THEY should be handling any redo's, not the campaigns. I seem to remember a lot more candidates at the time of the MI and FL primaries. Why do Obama and Clinton get to "approve" our primary. Neither of them is elected or nominated yet.

[DerekJ]

34. There was a re-do plan actually!! And guess who rejected it?!!

Yep. Hillary not Obama

[Tyler Durden]

37. I repeat: I don't care WHO said WHAT.

I want my vote in a PRIMARY COUNTED. If Obama supported a DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY REDO without Republicans, GREAT.

This is not about Clinton or Obama, and if you keep bringing it up, I'll have to assume you're not listening or have no other argument.

[jefferson_dem]

43. The primary that everyone knew wouldn't count? How many stayed home or voted for Romney

because they knew that? How "democratic" of you.

Any REDO should include all voters, as your state's open primary system requires.

[Tyler Durden]

45. Let's see here...

I'm a Democrat, but I LIE and say I'm a Republican to FUCK with the other party's primary.

Hmmmmm.

[jefferson_dem]

47. Open primary systems have always allowed for such strategic maneuvering.

That's the nature of the beast. Same as we have here in GA.

[Tyler Durden]

55. Was it a LIE?

Tell me it wasn't. That's one of the reasons WHY we hold our primaries on the same day, and why we wanted them early...to prevent crossover gaming.

[DerekJ]

64. Are you trying to tell me, MI & FL moved their primaries up to "prevent crossover gaming".

My My !! Where da fuck did you get this from?!!
out of your ars?!!

[Tyler Durden]

70. You're on ignore so I can't read you...but if you didn't answer the lie question....

...I will remind you that it was directed at YOU, not anyone or anything else.

I take my daughter with me when I vote, and when asked which primary, I TELL THE TRUTH.

Now if your candidate wants you to LIE, then I guess that's up to you, isn't it?

[DerekJ]

51. It wasn't me who brought it up. It was you. Check your posts!!!

[Tyler Durden]

57. You're just talking the Campaign line. That's your choice.

Your campaign has some serious work to do in Michigan if they get the nomination. Whether or not you actually DO it is up to you and Obama.

[jefferson_dem]

12. Fact is, your state party fucked you over.

Take your complaints that way.

We need to win in November. If you don't want to help us do that...it's YOU who doesn't understand "democracy"!

[Tyler Durden]

15. Keep it up. Let that bridge smolder.

Helps us to remember who our friends are.

[stillcool]

35. Where oh where were those that...

are so outraged back when their outrage would have 'mattered'?

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.
They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date. They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------
Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her. “I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5. The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.
"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15.
"We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.
State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.
The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.
Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.
The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.
The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[Tyler Durden]

17. Also, remember DNC RULE 11.A,

This could have been handled differently, but no...Dean's EGO got in the way, and his poodles Reid and Pelosi started nodding like bobbleheads.

[Debi]

22. How many votes did Dean have on the rules and by-laws committee?

[Tyler Durden]

25. Oh give me a break.

The head of the DNC makes it known how he wants it, and the rest of the poodles don't heel?

Aren't you one of those folks who spent the last years talking about how the DNC sucked, and they didn't represent the party, NOW they come up on your side and they're just great?

Tell me another one.

Michigan WILL Remember.

[stillcool]

36. You mean like Harold Ickes?

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[Debi]

42. Thank you - below I have a link to ALL the DNC rules

Not just the rule that the poster likes quoting. (Kind of ruins their argument, though, poor thing.)

[stillcool]

49. I love how every attempt..

at legitimizing that which is illegitimate brings new knowledge. I really believe that the only reason for the constant resuscitation of this argument is filler, while the Clinton Campaign desperately tries to cook up some accusation that they think will bring down Senator Obama's candidacy. But hey, it's all good. Education is always a good thing!

[Debi]

53. Did you see madfloridian's thread - some moran in FL just filed ANOTHER

law suit - this time claiming reverse discrimination. :crazy:

[Tyler Durden]

58. That person is on my Ignore list for rudeness and vulgarity.

And some IDIOT claiming reverse discrimination in Florida affects Michigan how?

She just went on and on and on and on about Florida. If Florida wants a Primary, I'd say that's their issue. I'm in Michigan.

[Debi]

72. I wouldn't call where you are Michigan...

:crazy:

please, if where intelligent reasonable people end up is on your ignore list. I'd like to join them there!

[Tyler Durden]

79. I don't think inteligent, reasonable people tell each other to fuck off, do you?

And I'm just north of Lansing, where we lost another manufacturing plant this week. I wouldn't call where you are Michigan.

Anyway, suit yourself.

[Debi]

41. What the hell are you talking about?

I pushed for Dean to be Chair of the DNC and very much support the Party.

I DIDN'T and DON'T support Terry Mc and all his manipulations during the 2004 convention and continuing on.

Looks like you do, though.

Here's a link to ALL the rules - inclucing Section 20(C) - which might be of interest to you.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/de68e7b6dfa0743217_hwm6bhyc4.pdf

[Tyler Durden]

44. Section 20C says 50 PERCENT.

AND where is the penalty for IA, NH and SC? No one's answered THAT ONE yet.

WHY don't they get penalized? BECAUSE THEY GOT A WAIVER.

[Debi]

48. Keep reading - all of Section 20, not just the parts that make you feel good

and yes, Iowa and New Hampshire got a waiver. Had Michigan and Florida NOT broken the rules Iowa and New Hampshire would NOT have moved. Why should those two states be penalized as a result of two states that went through the same selection process and didn't get slotted before the Feb. 5th window?

[Tyler Durden]

54. They still went FIRST, didn't they?

You seem to think, as do all Obama Supporters, that this is some kind of question of DEBATE.

It isn't.

And if you think Michigan is SO SOLID BLUE, I would suggest you look back over the elections between Humphrey and Clinton.

This isn't up for DEBATE. The way I see it, if Clinton gets the nod, she can claim all over the place that she worked to get us a Primary. If Obama gets the nod...Well...McCain will be HAPPY to remind Michigan that Obama didn't want their votes counted.

Can you imagine ANYTHING that would piss off a Union State worse than that? And pissed off people are not very reasonable.

The way I see it, Team Obama can keep on arguing and blocking then take their chances in the fall, or they can support a redo and help to fund it.

Or Obama, if he gets the nod, can show up here, something he hasn't done much of, and start promising some HELP. That will go a long way, unless McCain trumps him.

Now this is how politics really work, so keep on debating if you feel like it. I don't think it will help much.

OH YES, and to the poster talking about how much support they were seeing for Obama...in 1972 we fielded over 20,000 McGovern supporters on the DIAG at the U of M in Ann Arbor: it was the only part of Michigan that didn't vote for Nixon, and Michigan didn't vote for another Democrat until 1992.

I'd remember that one if I were you. Or don't.

[Debi]

71. I'm not an Obama supporter

How many facts to you plan on getting wrong today?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


As for the rest of your blathering, why should I even bother reading it?

You truly exist in a different reality. But you enjoy it there. :hi:

[stillcool]

61. Actually...they were forced...

to move up their dates because Florida and Michigan broke the rules
Edited...posted wrong material

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21520664/
Iowa Democrats move up caucus date
Party picks Jan. 3, hopes to maintain first-in-nation status

DES MOINES, Iowa - Iowa Democrats voted Sunday to move their leadoff precinct caucuses to Jan. 3, the same date Republicans picked earlier this month, letting both parties continue the tradition of meeting on the same night.

The state's precinct caucuses had been scheduled for Jan. 14, but the parties decided to move them up under pressure from other states rushing to the beginning of the primary calendar.

The move, confirmed by party spokesman Chris Allen, means the major remaining question about the calendar is the New Hampshire primary, originally scheduled for Jan. 22.
--------------------------------
or decades, Iowa's precinct caucuses have marked the first major test of strength in the presidential nominating season, followed by New Hampshire which holds the nation's first primary election.

That early position in the nominating calendar brings the two states enormous attention from presidential candidates, and gives them a heavy role in the selection of the nominees.

In this cycle, however, other states have sought to get a piece of the action _ even to the point of running afoul of their party establishments. They want the attention and increased influence that early balloting brings and feel they can do this by moving up in the campaign calendar.

Florida set its primary for Jan. 29, and Michigan is planning a Jan. 15 primary. Those decisions forced South Carolina to move up its date as well.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21520664/

[Debi]

73. Shhhhh, stop being logical

It angers the poster and they start using CAPS :crazy:

[redqueen]

23. MI's first plan for a re-vote was for a caucus.

Guess who said she "woulnd't accept" that plan?

Hint: It was not Obama nor any of his supporters.

[DerekJ]

27. redqueen, I am looking for an article about that, Do you have any bookmarked?

[redqueen]

29. Sure...

The word that Michigan was planning a caucus seemed to hit the net on March 6.
http://wizbangpolitics.com/2008/03/06/michigan-plans-to-hold-a-caucus.php


On March 7, she was all over the media, talking about how she "wouldn't accept" it.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/hillary_i_would_not_accept_a_c.php


And you can see why Tyler has me on ignore. Some people just really cannot stand having to face uncomfortable truths.

[DerekJ]

32. Thanks redqueen .. and don't forget

Michigan WILL remeber
:rofl:

[redqueen]

33. Well... they'll remember whatever makes it past their filters, anyway.

:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

39. Feel Free to keep that shit up.

If Michigan becomes the new "OHIO," then you'll at least know why.

[DerekJ]

52. Pfffftttt ...

[Tyler Durden]

59. MY what a polite and inteligent reply.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tyler Durden]

66. And you are rude and profane.

Welcome to my Ignore list.

[Tyler Durden]

26. #23: just so you won't think silence implies acceptance...

...I can't read your post because you're on my ignore list for some reason.

[redqueen]

31. Hah... well I told you before... and you didn't 'accept' reality then...

so I don't see why you seeing it again today would make any difference.

[stillcool]

38. do you mean this?

STATE LEGISLATIVE CHANGES
A. Subject to Rule 18.C. of these Rules, wherever any part of any section contained in these rules conflicts with existing state laws, the state party shall take provable positive steps to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the provisions of these rules.
Page 22
2008 Delegate Selection Rules for the Democratic National Convention
B Provable positive steps shall be taken in a timely fashion and shall include: the drafting of corrective legislation; public endorsement by the state party of such legislation; efforts to educate the public on the need for such legislation; active support for the legislation by the state party lobbying state legislators, other public officials, Party officials and Party members; and encouraging consideration of the legislation by the appropriate legislative committees and bodies.
C. A state party may be required by a vote of the DNC Executive Committee upon a recommendation of the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee to adopt and implement an alternative Party-run delegate selection system which does not conflict with these rules, regardless of any provable positive steps the state may have taken.

[mmonk]

10. Will you remember all of it?

Like all the convenient facts you're leaving out? Will you be proud of becoming a McCain state with selective memory?

[Tyler Durden]

16. You can keep that up, too.

As long as the smell of that burnt bridge is fresh, we'll remember who our friends are.

and who aren't.

Maybe you ought to write your guy a letter? Maybe he should start showing up here, mend some fences so to speak?

[mmonk]

50. Maybe you are incapable of understanding that Obama

is not in charge of your state's politics and the sham election that resulted.

[Tyler Durden]

60. Maybe I don't care about Clinton and even less about Obama.

But maybe Obama should. Hey, it's his election to lose. I won't be happy with McCain, but Obama's "we can take the South" Strategy is a little weak. He might want to kiss a little tush up here in the Great Lake State: he isn't too popular right now.

[ieoeja]

18. Obama v Clinton on MI/FL

Obama has endorsed the following which Hillary opposes:

O1. a revote open to all registered voters
O2. a mail-in revote
O3. a caucus
O4. a 50/50 split so the state's are represented at the convention (which does more than just nominate the presidential candidate, you know)


Hillary has endorsed the following which Obama opposes:

H1. no revote
H2. a revote only by those who voted before


You have stated your opposition to O1. How do you feel about each of the other five options (O2/O3/O4/H1/H2)?

[Tyler Durden]

20. Okay.

O1. a revote open to all registered voters

Including all the REPUBLICANS. GEE that sounds GREAT! Also, no offense to anyone who lied about their party affiliation to game the primary, but I keep hearing Obama supporters saying "HILLARY LIED HILLARY LIED HILLARY LIED." How about you? Did you lie? I didn't.

O2. a mail-in revote

Same story, and it just BEGS a court case.

O3. a caucus

We don't do those at the voter level, and we've heard over the years how those go: no thanks.

O4. a 50/50 split so the state's are represented at the convention (which does more than just nominate the presidential candidate, you know)

I seem to remember that Clinton took more than half the vote. Can you see any reason why that campaign would think that a 50/50 was fair, or why our voters would think arbitrarily awarding our delegates approached resembling any sort of real primary?


H1. no revote

That's BS. Sen. Hudson was adamant about 50/50 or a caucus.

H2. a revote only by those who voted before

Seems like a good solution. I ask again: did you lie in the primary? I didn't. I registered and voted as a Democrat, and none of that nonsense about that's how the "game is played." A Liar is a Liar.

[ieoeja]

56. You just went on record opposing 5 of 6 proposed solutions.

Yet you are so angry at Obama for opposing the only 1 of 6 you do support, that you have chosen to support McCain -- "MICHIGAN WILL REMEMBER" -- in the general election.

Note: you are incorrect on H1. Hillary has gone on record as saying she would welcome the delegates being seated according to the original primary with no revote whatsoever. If Sen Hudson opposes that then that is HER opinion, not Hillary's.

While you are entitled to your opinion of what is fair and what is not, you are now on record as opposing five of the six proposals for seating Michigan delegates. While Obama is on record as opposing only two of the six.

Maybe Michigan should remember you come the general election instead of Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

65. Senator Tupac Hudson is a man.

But you are missing the point: there was an agreement. Hudson got the message form the Obama Lawyers, and torpedoed the deal.

THAT is what will be remembered.

I get tired of saying this: I don't care WHAT Clinton said and even less what Obama said. I want my votes counted. Correctly. Period.

And anyone stupid enough to hand the Spin Miesters at the RNC a juicy tidbit like "Obama doesn't want your votes," DESERVES to lose Michigan, and except for Gore and Kerry, Michigan has voted for the winner since 1972.

[Bullet1987]

5. It's volunteer work? So I won't be getting paid?

[DerekJ]

9. Yep.

"Note: this is an unpaid position."

[Bullet1987]

13. Boo...I need a job during the summer where I'll be getting paid

I would love to work for Obama's campaign, but I direly need some money right now.

[JNelson6563]

30. Michigan is ready!

While a bit discouraged that our Dem leadership in MI screwed up royally, everyone is still excited about the elections. Michigan is suffering tremendously due to the economy and few are foolish or short-sighted enough to sit this important election out or vote for More of the Same McCain because of some perceived slight during primary season.

If the calls we got at Dem HQ in my area after every big Obama win were any indication, we've got quite a few ready-to-go supporters.

Julie

[Tyler Durden]

46. You obviously don't live in blue collar Flint, Pontiac, Lansing...

Or any of the small cities between who are losing their asses, do you?

[ieoeja]

63. You just said....

That those people won't support Obama because they are losing their asses in this economy. Yet, McCain's response to their losing their asses was to tell them, "your jobs are not coming back".

The same McCain that a couple years ago told a union meeting that, "Americans wouldn't pick lettuce if you paid them $50 an hour".

Why do you believe a bad economy means nobody will support Obama against McCain?

[Tyler Durden]

68. You're missing the point.

Obama, Clinton or McCain if they came to Michigan would all three LIE THEIR ASSES OFF.

It is in all of their nature, and has been demonstrated by all three, time and time again.

If Obama gets the nod, he needs to come to Michigan and LIE HIS ASS OFF, or else risk losing the state, thanks to handing the RNC a ton of free negative publicity.

Tell me I'm wrong.

[ieoeja]

76. Okay. You're wrong!

:)

McCain did not lie. He actually told the truth when he told Michigan those particular manufacturing jobs are not coming back. He'd have to be pretty f'ing stupid to tell a lie like that.

But you are correct, telling the truth probably hurt him. He SHOULD have lied his ass off instead.

Will Obama echo McCain? He has frequently taken unpopular stances in front of hostile audiences. So he might very well agree that those jobs are gone. But he won't say it as baldly as McCain did.

So what lies do you want to hear Obama say? Do you think he is lying when he discusses new manufacturing jobs for Green industries? Or when he advocates removing tax incentives for moving jobs overseas? Or when he advocates renegotiating NAFTA to make it more labor and environmental friendly?

I don't believe Obama has to actually lie his ass off in Michigan. All he has to do is swamp the airwaves with:

"Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for $50 an hour." - John McCain 2006
"Those jobs (in Michigan) aren't coming back." - John McCain, 2008

Michigan should be a slam dunk for Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

78. This is not the General Election. Yet.

And all McCain has to do is run the headlines of how the Obama Lawyers directed Sen. Hudson to quash the deal.

And any idiot knows THOSE jobs aren't coming back. The Candidates need to tell Michigan that Other Jobs will be supported, whether or not it's a lie, which it likely is.

The problem is, we are particularly sensitive to not having our votes counted here, so there's damage control to be done.

I simply don't see any.

As to McCain, you people REALLY don't think that I want HIM in there do you? But I'm not the majority of Michigan. Don't measure by me.

Also, we don't grow much lettuce here, and picking fruit is largely a summer job for locals. Our reaction might be "Who cares what they do in California where the lettuce grows?"

[Barack_America]

67. "Losing their asses"...due to NAFTA, you mean?

Sure we do. That's my neck of the woods at least. And my family there is eager to vote for Obama!

[Tyler Durden]

69. Then they're stupid: NAFTA and Michigan made MI and ONT. partners.

Port Huron and Detroit pass more freight IN BOTH DIRECTIONS than any other crossings, north or south.

Why? The Auto Industry. Canada has suffered as much from the destruction of the US Auto Industry as Michigan, they just are more diversified.

I have worked in Tier One supply off and on for 30 years, and we have NEVER complained about multi-million dollar contracts shipping parts to Canada.

[Barack_America]

74. Um, wouldn't it be preferable if those parts stayed in Michigan...

To be assembled by Michiganders?

I've no doubt that NAFTA has been lucrative to persons involved in shipping.

[Tyler Durden]

80. The plants that closed in Michigan mostly went to the South and Mexico

The plants in Ontario have been there for decades, with the exception of a Suzuki plant near London.

Really, we've got nothing against Canada except the landfill issue.

[Barack_America]

81. But NAFTA isn't just about Canada.

It is also about Mexico, as you noted, and extending even further, if Bush gets his way.

Do you really think that Michiganders will not come out to vote at least on this issue?

I still don't understand why you are so convinced that Michiganders will hold a grudge against the Democratic party more dear than their own economic interests.

[Tyler Durden]

83. Michigan is FULL of blue collar, beer drinking, deer hunters.

They are factory workers. The white ones use the "N" word when they don't think anyone's listening, and the black ones call the white ones cracker and trash to their faces.

Unfortunately, the white deer hunters vote in DROVES. Blacks in Detroit vastly outnumber whites and the white vote STILL out drew the black.

I'm in a hard hit town, and I still see "Bush/Cheney 04" stickers on rusty pickups. The Michigan Democratic Party can't break even here: they have to WIN, and if the Michigan House and STILL Republican dominated Michigan Senate are any clue...

My whole point is that the Democrats could have scored major points, and instead they chose to bicker like children and blew the redo. Unfortunately for Obama, his campaign will take the most heat for it. This was not smart.

[Barack_America]

84. Yep. That's my family. Blue collar (GM/Ford), beer drinking, deer hunters...

Our family even has a camp in the UP.

We're still voting for Obama (mostly, there are some racists within the family who won't, granted).

Sorry man, I don't know what to tell you other than blue collar folks in Michigan aren't as monolithic as you seem to think.

:shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

85. It's not that we have to poll WELL, we have poll VERY WELL.

If the Democratic vote is NOT monolithic, we lose.

Past experience.

[Debi]

75. If you haven't read the entire thread you've missed something

I think the poster believes themselves to be the ruler of all that is Michigan. Your job is to rally together and fight, fight, fight (I don't know what for, but just do it) :crazy:

[JNelson6563]

77. I live in MI's 4th CD

Plenty of hardship to go around, as I noted in my post you replied to.

It is because the people of our great state are losing their asses all over (including those in the rural communities!) that I believe they will come out and vote in this election and they won't be fooled into voting for more Bush-style failed policies that McLame brings to the table.

Additionally, I think because we saw nothing of the candidates during the primary season we will see more of them than we normally would have during the GE and that will be good for our candidates up and down the ballot.

Julie

[Tyler Durden]

82. One had better HOPE so.

I don't really disagree with you. I'm in the 4th as well; Owosso in Shiawassee County.

Doesn't Dave Camp SUCK? What a complete asshole. I corresponded with him until I couldn't take it anymore; it wasn't worth the tidbits I'd pick up from his letters. I called him and told him to take me off his mailing list.

We have so many empty plants in Owosso, you wouldn't believe it.

[JNelson6563]

86. We'll make it better, don't despair friend.

I know the southern end of our district is getting hit very hard. Greenville in Montcalm is still smarting from Electrolux leaving, what was that? Four years ago?

Camp is such a crappy Rep! He's been there waaaaaaaaay too long!

Julie

[Califooyah Operative]

87. K/R - nt

[mdmc]

88. grassroots

gotta luv um