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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:53 PM
Original message
What Happened to the CLINTONS?
Edited on Thu Apr-03-08 02:54 PM by NYDem Observer
I was a big fan of the Clinton years and believed that Bill Clinton brought economic prosperity and solid leadership to the White House. I was too young to vote for him in 92' but I was actively involved with the campaign and proudly cast my vote for Bill Clinton in 96'. I also suppported Hillary Clinton in both of her NY senate runs. The Clintons that I remember represented the democratic party with honor and integrity, but NOW...
The lies, the smear campaigns, the sense of entitlement, the win by any means necessary approach, has really opened my eyes to see the Clintons for who they truly are. Seriously, were their politics always this underhanded and I just didn't know? Were they always this ego-driven? Please enlighten me.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Life happened.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. They sold us out.
that's what happened.
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easy_b94 Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. jackpot and..........
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. No they didn't. We sold them out, believing the rabit RW media and other
Clinton haters. They did a job on Clinton before during and after his Presidency and most of us bought it hook, line, and sinker.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nothing happened to them
it's just the right-wing attacks on them have now been adopted by many on the left.

It turns out we didn't REALLY hate the tactics they used - we just hated that they used them against targets we liked. Democrats are perfectly willing to use the same exact tactics to prop up their candidate.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If you mean that the Clintons adopted those tactics, I agree.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. nope, don't be silly
I'm talking about people here and elsewhere obsessing about Bill Clinton's penis, repeating the same lies again and again, even when they KNOW it's a lie (Bill Clinton appeared on Rush Limbaugh's show, for example), concluding that serious crimes have occurred based on no evidence (What's she hiding in her tax returns?!), etc. etc.

The tactics used here are exactly the same as the ones used on FreeRepublic.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. The tactics here are inconsequential - the Clinton tactics sank their own ship...
Voters have seen that their machine is nearly as ugly as the Republican machine ~ and the grassroots movement (currently represented by Obama) just keeps on growing.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. and you're just proving my point
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Speaking the truth is a nasty tactic?? (How very Clintonian of you.)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. "Kitchen sink."
Out of their campaign's own mouth.

All you need to know.
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nebula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Power tends to corrupt
absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. nice troll post... regardless, where do you get the entitlement from? also,
where the hell does this "win by any means" hunk of total bullshit come from... if she went really negative, she could tear Obama and new asshole. this is total shit. She is pointing out some serious issues with him as a candidate, which is totally fair.

This protective bullshit stance with regard to St. Obama makes me friggin furious...


he was the first to play the race card and call the Clintons racist, he is the one that accuses her of entitlement, he is the one that has pulled the real dirty tricks.
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. So you're telling me
Endorsing the republican candidate over your democratic opponent is fair game
Lying about NAFTA, Bosnia, MI and FL, etc.. is above board
Explaining to SD behind closed doors that her democratic opponent is unelectable is fine.

If you agree with all that then I can see why you are a Hillary supporter.

All I've seen over the last few months is despicable behavior by the Clintons, I thought both candidates agreed to campaign on the issues, Hillary was the one who decided to take it to the gutter.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
43. to respond...
1. she is not lying about NAFTA... several people have corroberated her non-public doubts

2. her story about Bosnia was not that incredibly far off from what happened at the forward base and the footage the MSM does not show you. I believe she misspoke.

3. how is she lying about MI and FL?

4. if she believes he is unelectable, that is exactly what she should be telling SD's... that is the judgement they were created to make. And Obama's people are saying the same thing about Clinton.

5. Obama took it to the gutter first, sorry to tell you. he just doesnt get blamed for it like she does
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Wrong
1. If she publicly is supporting NAFTA it doesn't matter what she says behind closed doors. You can't say you opposed something if you publicly state you are for it, and hold meetings to try to convince others that they should be for it as well.
So are you saying she was lying to the women at the closed door briefing? Many of whom have stated that "her remarks were totally pro-NAFTA and what a good thing it would be for the economy. There was no equivocation for her support for NAFTA at the time"

2. To say she only misspoke about Bosnia is laughable, when she repeated the lie on four separate occasions, did she misspeak each time?

3. "its clear the election that they are having is not going to count for anything"

4. Please show me one instance where the Obama camp said Hillary was unelectable.

5. Agree to disagree

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shagsak Donating Member (328 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. hmm
Where does it come from?? Maybe the kitchen sink comment? Ever heard the phrase everything but the kitchen sink?

If she's so solid then why isn't she tearing him a new one?? She's had many opportunities on many debates but she always fell short. Always accusing the moderators of playing to Obama She's been whining since she's been losing and now she's at her last straw, and basically selling out her own party to ensure that he will not win. I can link some sites if you need specifics. In particular her statment recently that "He cannot win, he cannot beat McCain."

Truth is both candidates are trying desperately to keep race out of it, but chodes like you continue to bring it up. Neither party is racist, get over it. Stick to the issues. Clinton is done. Take out your anger on someone else.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. way back in December 2007, NBC did an interview of Edwards
One of their questions was "Hillary says she is inevitable, do you think she can be beaten?" That's a paraphrase, but her campaign from Day One was pushing her inevitability.

There are people who want the Democrats to win this fall who don't think that extending the campaign and going into "Bash Obama/Praise McCain" mode is helpful to the party. Yet, it seems that for many Hillary supporters, she can do no wrong.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. Gore's camp has said they were undermined in 2000 by Clintons. We know what TeamClinton
did in 2003-4, too.

So, yeah....they were in it for THEMSELVES, not the party - not for you. Unless, of course, they were SAVING YOU from the horrors of a Gore or Kerry administration.


The backstabbing was noticed by historian Dougles Brinkley.
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

Bill's book tour was more about keeping Bush supported and propped up through the summer of 2004.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq /

And Carville clearly sabotaged Ohio's Dem voters.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did...


Yep - Hillary is all about HERSELF before party.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg



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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. What I think happened is their plan went awry, and they're having trouble...
...coping with a reality they didn't see coming.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Their thoughts of entitlement and desperation...
and lies...
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ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hillary and her "legal weasels" will do whatever is permissble by law to win...
She is in it for herself, boys and girls.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. They started out cynical and they got worse
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Their assumption of inevitableness turned people off. nt.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. You fell victim to a smear campaign
I was shocked, for example, when I saw what was happening: the Clintons branded as
race-baiters -- Then this lie was repeated over and over until many now state it as "fact."

Eyes opened? Sorry, far from it.
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I mentioned nothing about race-baiting
Cause I really don't see it. The other stuff, however. You'd have to be completely blind not to see all the underhanded crap they're pulling.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I've seen a lot of underhanded crap from BO
Maybe you cannot see it -- there are many who do.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. Greed , entitlement & hubris n/t
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. I believe that we're seeing what they've always been
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
17. maybe they've always been like this, but the witnesses are piling up
and the Clintons can't shut them all up as easily as when there were less of them in the 90s.

I don't think they have changed so much as we have changed. Bush contributes to this - after so many years of his ugliness and lies and just outright criminality - to see some of these Same Traits and Tactics in the Clintons, doesn't look great and people are wising up.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Corrupted by wealth and power.
A story as old as mankind itself.
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PoliticalAmazon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. Used to be a big Clinton supporter, but can't stand them now...
...They are so much like Bush Jr, and I would never vote for Bush Jr.

What I don't get is how can any Democrat support Hillary Clinton? You would have to accept the idea that sending American jobs out of the country and creating unemployment, that voting to get thousands of Americans slaughtered in the Middle East, and taking our Civil Rights away are all good for Americans.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
24. it's their true colors
You were quite young in 1992. I was 30. I didn't like Clinton then. He talked too much like a Republican on the economy. Everything was economic growth, economic growth, economic growth.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/74

His first term confirmed that for me in many ways, which I can no longer remember. Perhaps NAFTA and "the era of big government is over". Welfare reform, although he vetoed two previous bills. It seemed to me that he was not much better than Bush Sr.

He was much better than Dole, but I voted against him anyway since he was projected to win big. The second term seemed to be all Lewinsky. I had forgotten about his tax cuts for the rich and his other foibles.

Then there was 2000. What business did Hillary have running for the Senate in New York? She never lived there and was obviously just using the prestige and size of New York as a springboard for a Presidential run. Since New York is my mom's home state, I took that personally and tried to run against her. However, since I am not a celebrity with lots of connections to the rich and powerful, I was unable to get on the ballot. But it helped me to see her as a rich celebrity with connections to the rich and powerful as opposed to a person "of the people and for the people".

Then she voted for and promoted the Iraq war. Still, I figured her victory was inevitable and would not be too bad. Then Edwards ran, trying to advance the issues of the poor and working class. Meanwhile, Hillary was running an empty campaign based on her inevitability and collection of big-shot endorsements - before ANYBODY even got to vote. Her debate performances were empty - not gonna commit to a specific policy proposal until we have a balanced budget and a bipartisan commission. When she finally came up with proposals they looked suspiciously like Edwards' earlier proposals.

Like Lieberman, I think it is when push comes to shove that their true colors come shining through - the arrogance, the elitism, the dishonesty, the pro-business and pro-military and pro-prison biases. I think that is her real base and like Bush, she tries to sell herself as a person with compassion for the ordinary American and it just is not at all evident in the record she is running on.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. "I was a big fan of the Clinton years..."
Yeah right!
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NYDem Observer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. You'd be suprised to find many like myself on DU
I forgot if you don't support Clinton now, you never did. :sarcasm:
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have to say
it hasn't been easy living with my republican husband these past few weeks.

"I tried to tell you about Bill and Hillary."

"I tried to warn you about them."

"I TOLD YOU SO."

"See, there WAS something to that 90s 'witch hunt' after all."

:banghead:

*heavy sigh* :-(
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Wow
So this is what the BO movement is attempting to wrought -- a vindication of the right-wing attacks of the nineties.

Very, very nice job.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. There are those
of us who have reasons to dislike the Clintons that have nothing to do with the Clenis. What is amazing is the number of Clinton defenders who think every negative comment on the Clintons is about the Clenis and is therefore spurious.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Thank you, hedgehog.
Nice to see common sense against kneejerking.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Nevertheless, right-wingers must be smiling at their "vindication."
I for one, will not forget the attacks from the right-wing, or the far-left.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Let them smile! Why should we pass up a once-in-a-lifetime candidate
and support Hillary CLinton just to piss off some right wingers?
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Delivered on the back of abuse which parallels right-wing attacks?
This validation of right-wing slander forms a structural flaw in the philosophical foundation of "hope and change." Whatever may be heaped upon that foundation, is therefore corrupted as well.
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AspenRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Excuse me?
Edited on Thu Apr-03-08 03:38 PM by DesertedRose
Do you know me? Do you know my husband?

Have you seen me officially support either of the remaining candidates? (For the record, I haven't. I invite you to research my previous posts and see if I have officially endorsed anyone.)

My choices, in order: Gore, Biden, Edwards. Oh yeah, and my first vote for president was for Bill Clinton. Voted in '96 too.

I'll tell you what, though: Keep up baseless accusations like that, and you and yours may help sway my vote one way over another.

:eyes:
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Not my intention to accuse you of anything
Edited on Thu Apr-03-08 03:46 PM by DemGa
I'm speaking of the effect of the BO movement itself -- the vindication of the right-wing attacks of the nineties. A nasty side-effect of BO.

It was obvious to me BO used the effects of right-wing slander to his advantage from the start. It had not occurred to me however, that those attacks might find new "justification" in the Barack Obama movement.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-03-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Meanwhile a Hillary supporter in another thread
is using a neo-con Bush trade policy that Obama opposes to claim he's not "uniting the world". This shit has to stop. On both sides.
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