Sadly, Over the Hill ...

[NanceGreggs]

At the time Hillary Clinton threw her hat in the ring, I don’t think my admiration for her could have been surpassed by even her most ardent admirer.

I had watched this incredible woman become the epitome of the 21st Century female, years ahead of her time. Her self-defined role as a partner in her husband’s presidency was not only a pronouncement, but an achievement. At the same time, she maintained her independence and ability to promote her own visions for positive change in our nation – a mission reflective of the role that women would, following in her footsteps, fulfill in the future political arena.

During the RW-generated “scandals” that ultimately led to outrageous accusations against herself, and impeachment proceedings against her husband, Hillary stood firm in her commitment to her principles and her marriage – and did so with straightforwardness and candor, not to mention incredible grace and style.

It was with that strength of character and sense of purpose that Hillary Clinton announced her candidacy for the presidency, a path she knew would open her entire life up to microscopic scrutiny, and make her the target of every scurrilous accusation the GOP smear machine could conjure up and catapult in her direction.

Although an Obama supporter from the beginning, I never lost any sleep over the idea that Hillary might emerge as the nominee. She was not my personal choice, but she was still an excellent choice – for all of the reasons above, and then some – and I never ignored an opportunity to say so.

That was then – and, unfortunately, this is now. And the now that we find ourselves in, as a party, is less than pretty.

When I heard Hillary’s comment that she and John McCain brought the necessary experience and expertise to the table, while her fellow Democrat, Barack Obama, was to be dismissed as nothing more than a speech, I was truly astounded. This was not the Hillary of sense and sensibility, but the Hillary of pride and prejudice, a woman who would stop at nothing to achieve her goal, with an immediate and vicious bias against anyone who had the audacity to try and stand in her way.

This code of conduct has not subsided, but instead has persisted and become more blatantly apparent with every passing day. It is the same “you’re with us or against us” mentality that has divided a nation for more than seven years; it is the same rhetoric that screams of entitlement and arrogance, rather than a sense of accepting the will of the people who have spoken, and continue to speak, about something more important than the ego of one politician with their eye focused on nothing else but the prize.

I will not say that I can imagine the heartbreak caused by giving up a life-long dream – simply because I cannot imagine it. I cannot imagine the despair, the depression, the profound disappointment – along with the attendant hope that maybe, just maybe, things will take an unexpected, nay miraculous turn, and I will emerge triumphant in the end.

But there does come a time when one should know instinctively that they have gone too far, that they have substituted self-interest for the interests of others, that they have replaced a passionate sense of vision with ambition that is not only blind, but destructive in the extreme.

There comes a time when you have to weigh your own personal goals against those of a party, as well as a nation, and understand that the dreams of one must make way for the hopes of the many.

There comes a time when your own sense of self-worth is no longer measurable by your willingness to fight, but by your ability to accept loss with grace and dignity.

Most importantly, there comes a time when fortitude becomes mere stubborness, when the desire to win fairly and honorably transforms itself into a desire to win at any cost, a time when every positive thing you have ever achieved is at risk of being forever overshadowed by the depths you are willing to go to in order to run the last mile of a race you have already lost.

I am truly heartsick that the Hillary Clinton I admired for years is gone – or, more sadly, perhaps never existed other than in my own imagination.

Being a woman of a certain age, I am aware that politics is a dirty game, and probably won’t change any time soon.

But there are certain rules of engagement, and Hillary’s campaign, along with the candidate herself, have chosen to bend them, belittle them, besmirch them – or simply ignore them.

There was a definite and all-too-obvious line to be crossed here, and Hillary Clinton has crossed it. Unfortunately for Hillary, it wasn’t the finish line.

This is just one woman’s opinion – but I wanted to share the fact that a lack of support for Hillary, on my part and on the part of others, is not, as some would spin it, about sexism or racism, the victim, the soundbyte, the Reverend tape-loop, the pinned-by-sniper-fire story, the he said/she said, the "but he/she did it, too" gotcha moment.

It is instead about rules being pledged to and then reneged on when convenient. It is about promises being made and then broken when all else fails. It is about decrying the disenfranchisment of voters in states you suddenly need while, in the same breath, advocating the idea that superdelegates should overturn the will of all voters if things turn out not to your liking.

In short, it’s about integrity – which, somewhere along the way, Hillary Clinton lost, misplaced, forgot, or simply discarded as an expendable obstacle in her failed race to what is proving to be the bitter side of nowhere.

[cali]

1. I start from a different place, Nance

I was never a huge admirer of either Clinton. I never saw the integrity in Hillary that you did. I remember her behavior around the Healthcare project, and how many putative allies she estranged with her high handed behavior. I recall her indignation over Flowers and others and how it couldn't possibly be true when she knew damned well it was. I realize that there wasn't much else she could do, but she always went straight for the other woman's jugular with all the power she commanded instead of admitting that her husband bore any responsibility. It always seemed to be about damage control more than anything else. I have some sympathy for Hillary Clinton- in fact quite a bit of it, and I recognize her intelligence and capability- but I have never admired her.

[Muttocracy]

6. that's a little closer to my feelings

That and I feel like she has tried to paint herself as a hard-fighting independent feminist while riding her husband's coattails. She screwed up big time on the health care effort in the 1990s and set us back on that. She was given the Senate seat in NY, as a stepping stone for the presidency, and I don't think that was fair to other NY politicians.

At the beginning of the campaign she was running mainly on her Senate work and proposals for the future. I didn't like seeing her sucking money and attention away from more qualified candidates who I thought she should have been supporting instead (Biden, Dodd, Richardson). At some point around Iowa she brought in Bill big-time and started pushing the first-lady-as-face-of-foreign-policy thing. I guess Bill Richardson, Madeleine Albright, etc. were just bystanders. And the idea of Bill in the white house again is NOT a selling point to me.

It's gone downhill from there. What bothered me about the NH crying moment was not whether or not she was crying. It was what she said about it being very personal, i.e., this is about ME ME ME. And that without HER in office we would fall "backward". And it's continued to go downhill.

I held off on moving on from Biden for a long time, and I still want him to run things. But that's not going to happen and I'm a realist at the core. The more I get to know Obama, the more I like him. The more I hear from Hillary and Bill the more upset I get.

[cali]

8. I have the greatest admiration for Joe Biden

and had he not voted for the IWR I would have supported him in the primary. Next to Leahy and Sanders (my own Senators) he's one in that body I most admire. Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets.

[ellisonz]

47. Seconded.

"Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets."

[Muttocracy]

54. yep

good guys - wonder if that will influence Biden as a superdelegate

[Skywalker]

108. Make it three!

"Like Leahy, he hasn't used his long Senate career to line his own pockets."

[Muttocracy]

53. yeah, that's actually the origin of my user name

I started using it on a different comments board when people were dismissing Biden in Iowa because he was supposedly rich off the credit card industry in Delaware, when that's not the case at all.

It's easy for people to be critical of long-term politicians, want term limits and/or vote them out, etc. But when I hear Biden leading foreign relations hearings, or Leahy leading Judiciary, I just think, how could one of the freshmen senators do that? Maybe Obama can go back to the Senate in 8 years?

I, too, wish Joe had voted against IWR. He tried to amend the resolution. He made a mistake trusting Colin Powell. At least he very quickly questioned the plan and became a critic, and openly admitted his mistake, and uses the word "mistake" - something Hillary could never do.

[Zhade]

172. Well, that and the fuck-the-poor bankruptcy bill, and endorsing a PNAC statement.

But I'd take him over a proven liar like clinton any day!

[ooglymoogly]

192. Self delete....wrong place...though I am with you on the Bankrupsy

matter. I did watch the last vote on that after first she had voted for, wait around until the bill had safely passed to be one of the last votes, when her vote no longer had the slightest meaning.

[Muttocracy]

198. I think the bankruptcy bill was under the GOP control

and Biden agreed to vote for it in order to get some amendments to it, but I'm not 100% sure of that. I also thought his vote didn't make a difference (it was going to pass anyway) but don't have the data for that at my fingertips either.

I don't think Biden is a saint, and my personal politics views would match better with Kucinich, but there's a pretty small # of Biden complaints for 30 years of votes. I wanted someone smart and honest who respects the constitution and knows foreign policy and has a concrete plan to get us out of Iraq.

[Zhade]

203. I'm still angry about the "can't write off catastrophic medical debt" thing.

Maybe I'm being unfair to him, but at the time I was livid.

[Muttocracy]

223. you're probably right

I don't know the details, and it's certainly something Biden supporters REALLY wish he hadn't voted for.

One more reason we need to fix the health care system in this country

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. She's a narcissist

So is Bill. That's why it's all about ME ME ME.

[polpilot]

150. She HAD to be the president in order to convince herself that it was 'all worth it'

Staying with Bubba in Arkansas, standing by her man...

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. Yes I suspect that's why she stayed with him

[skepticscott]

187. No doubt about it

She could still be elected president as a woman who stood by her cheating husband. But as a divorcee who ditched her cheating husband, she would have no chance at all, and she knew that.

[JerseygirlCT]

34. Those are good points. I'd forgotten some of that. nt

[Mme. Defarge]

69. In my case,

at the beginning of this race Hillary was my least favorite of all of the candidates for the reasons you have given, plus her Iraq war vote, then her Kyle-Lieberman vote.

But, there was a moment toward the end of the debate that occurred right before the New Hampshire primary, when I felt so very proud of all of the Democratic candidates on stage that I believed I could have voted for any one of them -- including Hillary. Since that moment, everything she has done during her campaign (including appropriating John Edwards' "this is personal" theme during her teary interview where she expressed frustration and exasperation over her sense that voters didn't realize how much they really needed her) has not only reinforced my original negative attitude about her, but has instilled in me a sense of alarm -- EVEN FEAR -- that someone so power-mad could somehow end up as our next president.

Perhaps the good news is that we are seeing all of this now -- before the nomination. Still, I admit that I am flabbergasted by the brazen, crude, overtly destructive turn of her campaign.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. Yep. It's a sad and true litany of the campaign. Meanwhile, on the ground,

Obama is producing real life delegate wins. That's what he needs to do to finish this out. Obama needs to stay true to his message.

Of all the instances you cite, the two that really stand out for me are the repeated and varied endorsements of McCain over the Democratic front runner and the race baiting. Politically, the endorsements are getting close to the worst thing you can do, ala Zell Miller, and the race baiting is just plain despicable.

I wasn't a big Hill for president fan due to what I saw as the negatives of the Clinton years, the corporate coziness, and the right wing bills passed, but I saw her as a good, fairly reliable, liberal vote in the Senate.

Now I see her as a political bomb thrower. I think back to her remarks about Senator Kerry and his troop joke, and I wonder why I didn't see it coming. Same kind of suicidal political terrorism. It's unacceptable.

[Diane R]

161. Her remarks about Kerry and the troop joke was when I decided I could never vote for her.

That was when I saw the true Hillary. She saw an opportunity to take out a potential challenger to her '08 nomination, and she didn't hesitate for a minute to go in for the kill. Nevermind he was exhausted from working 24/7 to elect a democratic congress. Nevermind it was clearly a mistake. Nevermind he had worked tirelessly to support the troops his entire adult life. Nevermind that we were on the eve of a crucial congressional election and could ill afford the distraction. She didn't hesitate for a minute.

Go back and look at that Hillary, what she said to kneecap him, and how quickly she went on air with her remarks. Look at that Hillary, and the Hillary we have trying to destroy Obama right now is one and the same.

[Muttocracy]

224. good post nt

[bigbrother05]

3. Over the Hill or jumped the shark?

It's always unfortunate to see someone you respect forfeit those things that drew you to them originally. Anytime that happens you have to question yourself; were you naive, uninformed, betrayed, or a fool? It's probably some combination of all those things. Often, we project our own best intentions on folks, but don't beat yourself up too much for having higher beliefs and ideals. We can only hope that those we admire will make a good faith effort at living up to the standards they espouse and we make common cause with those that call on us to rise above ourselves.

Thanks Nance, always enjoy your work.

[vincenzoesq]

71. Keep the faith

Nicely said, Big B.

[The Doctor.]

126. I give her more credit than that. She worked all her LIFE for this...

She truly did dedicate herself to the people she represented. She's my senator right now, and she's done well for the people of NY.

I believe she truly felt her legacy would be one of greatness for America, and the stage was set for her. It's hard to blame someone for lashing out when some guy comes out of nowhere, grabs your spotlight, gets your standing ovation, and walks off with your top billing.

For so many of her supporters, this was her show. She worked for it, planned for it, she had it coming to her. It's hard to blame them for feeling Obama's candidacy is insubstantial and unworthy. That's the reason they claim his following is a 'cult' or a 'fad'. It's the reason they refuse to see that he's the real deal.

[Cha]

147. Yeah, darn..it's really too bad she feels she has

to lie to make herself more presentable, especially using the Fake Courage Under Fire Bosnia Fire by Sniper story when there are so many real Soldiers under fire that she totally disprespects by going there.

<snips>

Why Is Hillary Clinton Lying?
by Robert Parry
March 26, 2008—Two weeks ago, I wrote a story that observed a disturbing trend in Hillary Clinton’s campaign – her growing tendency to stretch the truth, twist what her chief rival was saying and then rely on her supporters to go on the offensive against you if you spoke up.

These tendencies were troubling, in part, because they mirrored what had become so common during George W. Bush’s years: to declare that a fantasy is the truth and then to attack the patriotism or sanity of anyone who thinks otherwise. I wrote

A week later, I cited a report in the Boston Globe about Clinton exaggerating her behind-the-scenes support for the State Children’s Health Insurance Program – which was fashioned and passed by a bipartisan congressional effort led by Sen. Ted Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, and Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. I noted that Clinton had transformed her peripheral role into a central theme of her campaign.

<snip>

Not surprisingly, these articles questioning Clinton's truthfulness drew furious reactions from Clinton’s supporters who seem on perpetual alert to any criticism of their candidate, so it can be repudiated as an example of “sexism,” “Hillary bashing” or membership in some “Barack Obama cult.”

<more>
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/032608Parry.shtml


hilary is my senator too and I stopped believing in her when I realized that when she voted for the IWR without reading the 90 NIE report that she was planning on using that on her resume to run for president in 2008.

Too bad for our Soldiers it wasn't like bush, cheney, rummy, et al promised it would turn out. hilary put her faith in bush? What judgement she has.

[The Doctor.]

154. Agreed. n/t

[Zhade]

173. Except that's the exact entitlement decried in the OP, and rightly so.

clinton wasn't owed this. She had to earn it, and has failed to do so. That's her fault, not Obama's.

[PetraPooh]

4. I for one am tired of hearing about the fighting between the candidates,

because only one seems to be "fighting." The worse thing I've heard Obama say was that Hillary was using the kitchen sink tactic hoping something would stick. It is so one sided yet it is being publicized as being both candidates on the MSM so now apparently all Dems are going to be disavowed and Gore is trying to get himself nominated. WTF!!! Am I the only one who is seeing this ridiculous lumping of both candidates due to the behavior of one?

[Muttocracy]

56. no, you're not the only one! nt

[eagertolearn]

58. It's some Obama supporters who are giving him a bad name...

I see Obama himself running a very clean campaign but some of his supporters need to respond with a smile instead of with anger and insults. Let Obama fight his own fight because he is doing it with class and style instead of with trash talk. Just my opinion!

[Voice for Peace]

82. glad to hear this stated... I have been wondering myself...ie, Did I miss something?

It has seemed to me that Obama's campaign has been consistently decent, and Clinton's has been increasingly slimy & jarring. I couldn't figure out why I kept hearing how "both campaigns" were slinging dirt... didn't compute.

[aasleka]

99. Integrity means asking delegates to break a pledge (an oath)

From the start right up till this minute she has been an awful candidate that I could not support. I do think acting like the victim is not a good role model for the feminists nor having your husband do your work for you. There are plenty of women I would like as President but Hillary isn't one of them.

[ladym55]

159. No, you are definitely not the only one

I'm so very, very, very tired of the campaign and the way the MSM still acts like she can win it. umm, that would be a NO. By allowing her to drag this on and continue to trash Obama like her campaign does leaves the Democratic Party in a mess for fall. And suddenly Al Gore will step in???? umm, that would also be a no. It is TRULY unfair to the man who is WINNING this thing and deserves to win the GE.

[Cha]

162. OMG! It's the freakin' worst..and I almost lost

it today when talking to my sister who's for Obama(thank goodness) and she said something about "if they don't stop tearing each other down..she's afraid mccain is going to win. Something inside me goes berserk and I have to rein myself in to not lose it, myself. I told her that hilary was the only one tearing down and Obama is running an amazing clean, focused campaign and out there talking about The Economy, Foreign Policy, and Race. She's a busy person and gets news from the tv but she knows what I do so I got her straightened out.

She said she really liked his "A More Perfect Union" speech.

[Diane R]

163. I totally agree with you. It's like 3rd grade; blaming all the kids for the actions of one!

[Politicalboi]

167. No your not the only one

Obama has not been using the dirty tactics Hillary has been using. I never saw that in his campaign. As a matter of fact I think he has been too nice to her. But he is a gentleman and he won't go to her depth.

[Alii]

234. Nope!

You're not the only one.

Denial? Check the polls in re truthfulness, honesty and integrity,

[Divine Discontent]

5. like you, I'm more than aware that they've gone too far

and not only me, but my best friends, my sibling, and my mother all realize the same thing.

Praising McCain, a couple days ago, Bill sounded like he had just endorsed him for president. They are not reflective of the party they were once leaders of.

good job and thanks, Nance!

[mythyc]

7. K&R. great editorial Nance

I just read this whole thing aloud to my girlfriend and her sister, both strong self-willed women, and they are in complete agreement with everything you wrote, emphatically so. Particularly for them, they're saying right now that more than anything else they're first and foremost sad about how she has abandoned her integrity and sacrificed a respectable legacy, and with it women's faith in that achievement, to such an extreme and shocking extent. And, similarly, that Bill has also lost as much if not more respect in so indulging in such negativity and hubris.

For myself, I'll add that your final contradiction, on decrying "disenfranchisement" even whilst provoking a usurping of majorities across the board (in pledged delegates, total delegates, total states, popular vote, etc -- even if MI and FL were counted and even if the uncommitted MI votes were not hypothetically awarded to Obama {see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ) encapsulates it all so well, in a way that is too disappointing and worrisome to either wrangle over or even simply signalize. It's gotten to the point that I just can't wait till it's over, an ironical sad twist to what otherwise has been the favorite and most inspiring election cycle of my political life.

[MadBadger]

9. I've Gone through many stages with her

I started out not liking her but since the campaign started to about November, I warmed up to her. I kind of saw her as hard to beat and thought at the time that it wouldnt be so bad if she's the nominee. Then in November-December things changed. She used the gender card after the debate in Philly and eventually stated that it would be fun to attack Obama. I thought that was tasteless but that was just the beginning. Then you have Billy Shaheen and Mark Penn and their talk of Cocaine, Bob Kerrey and his incessant talk of Obama and his Muslim heritage. It was hard to separate her actions from her surrogates. Slowly through this campaign I began to see just how calculated she could be. From her tears in NH, to her Shame on you moment, to sniper gate, little by little I was turned off more and more. But the pinnacle for me was the same as it was for you. Her propping up herself and McCain and tearing down Obama with the Life Experience and CIC statements really made me dislike her. I thought those actions were pretty disgusting and soured my feelings for Clinton for good.

[cornermouse]

10. I'm going to do the unthinkable and disagree.

And although I get tired of saying this, no, I don't consider myself a Hillary supporter although I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters. I, for one, will never, ever forget the attacks they launched on Chelsea here on DU of all places.

First, I continue to be disappointed in the eagerness of some to disallow the last states a choice of candidates. Indeed I was shocked that pressure would be and was exerted on the field of candidates early in the process to drop out of the race and narrow the field down to what some genius probably thought of as a "we can't miss with a historic race" strategy. I also continue to be disappointed in the apparent belief that the democratic process is flawed and should be altered without lengthy thought and debate to suit the political situation of the moment. In other words, if the race is cut short due to anything other than votes AFTER they are cast then it is no longer a democratic process. The race is not over because the votes have not been cast and neither candidate has the required number votes residing in their column.

I do think that something should be done after the convention to change the voting process. Certainly this race has highlighted several problems. Changing now, however, should not be considered an option.

Hillary is simply doing what most male candidates would do if they were in the same position. For some reason this appears to be particularly bad. I keep wondering if that's due to a little of the “Mom has always stepped forward and does whatever’s necessary to restore family peace” expectation or mindset in operation among posters here. But then again, maybe that’s irrelevant as well.

Although I'm not too sure what Jane Austen has to do with Hillary's campaign, I tend to think that overall she would have approved of Hillary's refusal to back down and to persevere in the face of adversity. That is a quality that Hillary has always displayed. It's what allowed her to survive the republican attacks when Bill was in the White House.

[MadBadger]

11. I dont understand what any of this has to do with her being a female

The reason people wnat her out of the race is simple. She has an extremely hard time to almost impossible chance of winning the pledged delegates and the supers most likely will not overturn the will of the people. So instead of having our candidates bloody each other up to the point where no Dem can win in the fall, people wish Hillary would leave. If she doesnt choose to leave, at least run a campaign where you are not propping up McCain while tearing down Obama, because that does nothing good for the party.

[cornermouse]

12. The race is not over.

Neither candidate has the necessary votes to win in their column. All you have are projections. You are denying the democratic process a chance to work. You are denying voters a choice. I can't say it any plainer than that.

[MadBadger]

13. I'm not denying anything...I havent called for her to get out

I wish she would, but like Obama, I am not calling for her to drop out. And do you know what I dont like? I dont like Hillary dismissing any of Obama's wins with the "That state doesnt count" meme.

[cornermouse]

15. Was dropping out not an underlying theme of Nance's

essay? Sure looked that way to me...

[MadBadger]

16. Well your previous u post constantly said "YOU are denying the democratic process"

So I safely assumed you were referring to me.

[cornermouse]

19. Did you call for Hillary to get out

so the electoral process will be, ummm, nicer, more tidy/less bloody, or convenient for the other candidate? If so, then I was indeed referring to you. Now, why don't you run along and misunderstand someone else for a while.

[MadBadger]

21. I have never called for Hillary to drop out, and you dont have to be rude

Now if she loses PA, then I will definitely call for her to drop out, and I think she definitely would.

[SwampG8r]

220. sure they are allowed their rudeness

its all they have left besides a deflated sense of entitlement

[cornermouse]

228. Thus spaketh the pot.

and one need look no further than your current posts for evidence.

[enigmatic]

17. I agree w/ this

Hillary, Like Obama, Edwards, Dean, Wellstone, Kerry etc are/were politicians. And everytime I see a "I used to LOVE______, but now that they've done_____, my respect for them has gone", I shake my head. Politics is inherently more corrupt the higher you go on the national ladder, and if you've gotten to the position to run for President w/ a real shot of winning, you've stepped on people, make backdoor deals, and have run hardball (and frequently, dirty) campaigns to get there. That's reality.

Black/White "YOUR candidate is Satan, MY Candidate is The Messiah!" are Fool's Gold, because every political figure is a flawed figure, just like every other human being. If you see your candidate as anything other than a politician, you'll be disappointed, outraged and sad at something they eventiually do, because you thought they were something else than what they are; politicians.

The Hyper-Partisan candidate supporters who fling their shit here in GD: P are a lost cause to me; they will be the first ones who will turn on Obama or Hillary and call them the usual slurs and memes flung around here the moment they get into the WH because they don't govern the exact way those partisans want. And I'll laugh to myself then, just as I'm laughing to myself now over this crap of a Primary Season here.

I don't want to be "inspired", I don't want to be part of a "movement", I don't want my candidate to be The Messiah, politically or otherwise. I want them to govern to the best of their abilities w/ the ideals closest to my own, but still knowing that I'm not going to agree w/ them 100 percent on every issue.

I was a Chris Dodd supporter; I think he would make the best President out of all the candidates running this year. And if he had been one of the front-runners and went hardball against the rest of the field, I would expect it, just like every other candidate. It's politics. Nobody, NOBODY, is pure.

[cornermouse]

20. Exactly.

[DemExpat]

24. Hear, hear!

DemEx

[Voice for Peace]

89. Mostly true, but what does a politician stand for? I just watched an interesting movie

called "Amazing Grace" -- not a great movie but a really inspiring true story from history, about William Wilberforce and his campaign to end the slave trade. He was a politician, and I'm sure he had lots of faults.

Hillary says she stands for certain things, but what she manifests as a public figure and in her campaign doesn't match up, my opinion. Lack of transparency, dishonesty, viciousness, sarcasm, and more.

It's possible for someone to be a politician and walk their talk. I don't think she does, I think she talks out of both sides of her mouth, and I haven't seen much she's accomplished that impresses me.

[NashVegas]

39. If I Could Recommend an Individual Post

This would be it.

[ekwhite]

40. It's not the staying in the race, it's the negativity

I think she has crossed a line. Apparently, her campaign has mistaken the primary for the general election, and has used negative campaigning techniques against the front runner, damaging both of them in the general election. It is no accident that both of them are down in the national polls against John McCain.

As far as 'Hillary is just doing what male candidates would do in her position,' I disagree. A male candidate like Richard Nixon might do it, George W. Bush certainly did it, but I can't remember a Democratic campaign this nasty. It's one thing to stay in the campaign until the end - that is perseverance. It is another thing to stay in the campaign and hurl bombs at the front runner. Her McCain comments were especially egregious - comparing another Presidential candidate unfavorably to the Republican nominee is bad for our party.

Perhaps Nance's use of Jane Austen was a bit off, but so what? This is a case where a trait that is positive in some situations has become a negative. Perseverance in the face of adversity is commendable, but when it becomes an unwillingness to face the facts, combined with a willingness to destroy your opponent and divide the party to attain your goal, it becomes a fatal flaw. Somehow, she reminds me more of Captain Ahab now than a Jane Austen heroine.

[NanceGreggs]

182. Exactly my point ...

"It's not the staying in the race, it's the negativity."

If Hill was running a clean campaign, that didn't involve the constant dissing of her opponent as a means of making herself seem the better choice, I wouldn't care if she stayed in the race until six months after Obama's inauguration.

(BTW, I was not attempting to make a reference to Jane Austen - I merely used "sense and sensibility" and "pride and prejudice" because they are widely-known phrases. That's why they are not in caps, as would be appropriate if I were referring to book titles per se, or inferring some connection to Ms Austen's novels.)

[Voice for Peace]

87. In my opinion, it's not her perseverence that's the problem. If she had been taking

the reins of her own campaign and setting the standard for all who speak on her behalf, I would feel differently about the campaign continuing. Because it's true that there's not a huge gap in the popular vote, even though that's not the way this primary chooses a candidate, she does have many supporters.

But she has allowed so much that is so wrong to go on in her name, and contributed to it either overtly, through implication, or through surrogates, including Bill. Her campaign has been ugly and deceptive, and continues to be so. How do supporters of Hillary not see this? It baffles me.

If she were in charge of her campaign and setting a higher standard for decency, and had been spending these months going after McCain instead of doing everything possible to undermine Obama, she might have won.

The mess of her campaign to me does not bode well for a presidency. Secrecy, deceptions, sliming the opposition, playing to people's fears.. no thanks.

[cornermouse]

101. I could say the same about Obama.

I'm sure you won't agree, but yeah, I could say the same about Obama.

[Laurab]

117. You COULD say it but it wouldn't be true.

Unfortunately, with Hillary, it IS true. When you praise the opposing party's candidate in an effort to damage the candidate from your own party, who is ahead of you, IMO you've crossed a line.

Both HRC and Bill have done this. Bill has also questioned Obama's patriotism, and touted McCain's. There's politics, and then there's really DIRTY politics. I certainly expect that type of thing from the repukes, but not from my own party.

Can you give me an example of Obama saying McCain would be more qualified than Hillary? I doubt it, but if you can, please do. That was when they jumped the shark, and in my mind, both Clinton's are now in the same league as Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman. Their behavior in this primary disgusts me, and reminds me so much of the opposing party that it will be difficult for me to vote for Hillary in the next Senate race, and I'm far from alone.

It boggles my mind to see that there are some dems who are ok with this, and who still support HRC, who is doing far more damage to herself than she's doing to Obama. I no longer can watch her without cringing - something previously felt only for bush, cheney and their minions. My mom, who supported Hillary, feels the same way. My daughter who was undecided, also feels the same way. Hillary's campaign has lost her so much support, yet she shows no signs of changing from "attack Obama" mode, no matter how it might hurt him or the party in the GE. That is just.not.right.

[cornermouse]

120. point of view.

You have yours. I have mine.

[Voice for Peace]

124. "curious and curiouser" as Alice said.

I happen to respect that people really do have different points of view, and that each is valid. This is a conundrum when somebody wants to argue with me. All I can figure is there is no fixed reality in any of this. Each of us is the center of our own universe, unique to us.

[cornermouse]

125. waxing philosophically and metaphysically, are we?

[Voice for Peace]

184. It's not my fault!

[cleveramerican]

153. A special interest group of one

I feel the same way too often to recount here.

[Voice for Peace]

185. Isn't that the way it is?

We just see things differently! and what crime is there in that?
Who can judge?

[Heathen57]

188. Do you have any facts

to support your opinion, or is it just based on your dislike for Obama?

I am really curious if you have any real reasons for what you claim?

[JVS]

213. claiming "point of view" is no substitute for making a case.

[cleveramerican]

214. Isn't "making the case" for the candidate to do.

I seek to convince no one of anything.
People arrive at a site like this with their opinions fully formed.
Opinions are all anybody has here.

[cornermouse]

216. so we're not allowed to have our own individual point of view

any more? We have to adopt or cultivate the "correct" point of view? Interesting in a bizarre way.

[fortyfeetunder]

206. If I could, I'd K&R this post

When I heard HRC tout McCain over Obama, I just sank in my chair. She didn't realize the gravity of that comment.....it will come back to bite her in the rump!

[Laurab]

225. I agree it will come back to bite her - it already has

to some extent, anyway. I find it hard to believe that she didn't realize the gravity of it, though. She and Bill are seasoned politicians, and they HAVE to know. Yet, it's been repeated several times. One has to wonder why.

[Zhade]

179. No one made her lie repeatedly about nonexistent sniper fire.

No one made her endorse McLame, or race-bait, or break the rules, or any of the other things she's willingly done in her vain attempt to win that which she will not win.

[Voice for Peace]

186. I agree, and frankly I don't like her. However

??

something there is that doesn't love a wall, that wants it down.

[ourbluenation]

130. voting for or against someone based on comments on a message board is idiotic. n/t

[cornermouse]

149. I don't believe I said I was voting for or against someone based

on comments on a message board, but makes you feel good, go ahead. I can't stop you.

[ourbluenation]

160. makes me feel good? what a presumption. at any rate...to quote you....

I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters

[cornermouse]

165. Prithee kinde sir?

Wouldst thou considereth "idiotic" to be pejorative terminology? If so, thou must maketh allowances... or not.

[ourbluenation]

168. Try prithee kinde lady, yo. n/t

[cornermouse]

177. Nah.

I'm going to exercise my feminine prerogative and refuse to move from this spot until I decide its time.

[HooptieWagon]

155. "incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters"

I missed that, could you provide a link? I'm sure you won't have a problem providing a few examples of the incredible nastiness by Obama supporters, if it's so fresh in your mind. Thanks in advance.

[bridgit]

176. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[HooptieWagon]

232. Thank you. OK, just what was incredibly nasty in that thread?

I read the entire thread. OP was citing a national poll by a reputable polling company (Pew) that is not flattering to the about 25% of Hillary supporters who logically could be judged racist. I don't see a problem with the OP posting that. Are you disputing the results of the polling company? Shouldn't your anger be directed at the 25% of Hillary supporters who would appear to be racists? The replying posts were commenting on the OP - uh, this is a message board. Only two posts were deleted, which seems to be well below average. The mods have let the thread stand, so apparently they don't have a problem with the content.

[bridgit]

235. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... you are joking, right? the percentile gathered of straight-up democratic voters via that "reputable polling company" is below 25%, it's closer to 21%, and the leaves a crashing 79% to skew the data any way they feel they need to. so i don't know where you get that number, ot why you would consider such a poll so pleasing to the eye.

uh, yeah, this is a message board, doi! but not having a thread locked, especially as of late, is no gold standard for that thread being then above board and not per se nasty. there was another such thread last night...but i'm not going to point it out to you. it is your vote, it is therefore your research to either complete or no

having designed polling samples, bona fide scientific samples and not push polls, skewed race baited data is imo not-all-that-much-less than base-nasty as a practical matter again imo. that you are disinclined to see anything wrong with such data so loaded/biased would seem to codify your relationship to it as being in agreement...that's your call

it is clear we see data itself from different points of view to say the least

all the best

[bridgit]

169. Oh, Austen's here offering her demure two-sided tea cups; no need to pull taffy twixt: Out of Africa

and Arsenic & Old Lace.

My sense is that the BO camp wants it to be over for a couple reasons not the least of which being, 1) because they know precisely the manner in which they've run their campaign thus far; they've had many months, many news cycles fusing 'cool' onto BO's high riding, "Why are we whispering?" stand-up routine that he's played from cheering university crowd to cheering university crowd. It's been several weeks now since it was suggested by some in the press; that BO get out from the university circuit, and start answering some questions. Among the net result has been that casting gentile asparagus, so as to say, is now considered politically more cool than having a plan worthy of 500 words or less. University backdrops notwithstanding, BO has utilized them as others have utilized our military bases round the world. And indeed we seen after all, and in spite of all this talk of change; there was the phalanx of American Flags behind a speech that should have been delivered months ago. And not in response to faltering poll numbers.

And, 2) the BO camp does not want to have to work that hard. My sense is that it is their sense that the country should simply be handed to them, again, 'no questions asked'. Which I find very strange indeed. An odd sort of narcissism.

My greater concern beyond is that after having fused "Why are we whispering?" onto what is now accepted as cool, some-others calling for the contest and drop out and the final considerations along with it; they are suggesting that the disenfranchisement of American voters also be thought of as cool.

I do agree that the voting system needs change. I say start with 'super delegates'. This looming specter of 'super delegates', already laboring under a landscape altering Electoral College scares up the likelihood of too much tinkering for one system.

Let the votes be counted.

[Zhade]

175. The Chelsea thing was fucked up. clinton's lies about sniper fire were MORE fucked up.

She deserves no sympathy for putting herself in this position.

[Alii]

199. Great thread NanceGregg

A quote from cornermouse.

"And although I get tired of saying this, no, I don't consider myself a Hillary supporter although I have begun to lean that way recently due in part to the incredible nastiness I have encountered from the Obama supporters. I, for one, will never, ever forget the attacks they launched on Chelsea here on DU of all places."

I guess, that like beauty, nastiness is in the eye of the beholder. My eyes have seen more nastiness from Hillary supporters than I've seen from Barack supporters. But, we are not voting for nasty supporters we are voting for a candidate. That argument, leaning towards Hiillary because of nastiness, makes about as much sense as voting for her only because she's a woman.

What happened to honesty, truthfulness and integrity...check the polls. What has happened to our values?

A senior-senior citizen, registered republican, voting for Obama in the general election. C'mon fellow old duffers, give the youngsters their due. Unselfishly give them HOPE and vote Barack Obama.

[Oldtimeralso]

200. Welcome Alii

Great post. I'm also a senior but a life long Democrat who hates what has happened to America's values. Isn't there an old Chinese saying that a fish rots from the head. We the people need to have someone who will listen. As a constituent of Sen. Obama I can tell you that he (or his office)has responded to my communications with thoughtful and direct answers not form letters. This tells me that he does listen to the people.

[Alii]

233. Thanks Fellow Old-timer

I've been trying to post a thread in re NAFTA and loss of jobs. The gates aren't opening up for me.

My latest soapbox issue is supporting Barack Obama's candidacy.

I'm a veteran and have great respect for John McCain...he is a great American. But, like many of we old-timers, me specifically, tend to have lapses of memory.

God Bless America...

God Bless Truthfulness, Honesty and Integrity...apparently a dying breed.

[BigBearJohn]

14. Sorry to lose you Nance, but at least we still have Maya Angelou in Hillary's corner.

[mhoran]

18. Very, very well said

Thanks for your eloquence.

[noel711]

22. Good comment, but I beg to differ on the point of..

grace.

You characterized Hillary Clinton as a person of 'grace' during
Bill's tenure in office.

Not in my book. "Grace" is a way of defining how one behaves
under pressure. "Grace" doesn't mean you always have a smile
plastered on your face, but it does mean that whatever the
relationship, it's always focused on accepting the love
with awareness, and caring, and the best regard.

If 'grace' was part and parcel of her personality,
she'd have quit using that meme "the vast right-wing conspiracy"
and accept the face that we all have our differences, and that
we try to do our best. Instead it was blame others for our own
inadequacies...

If 'grace' was what she was about, she'd have downplayed her
own experience and curriculum vitae, her own 'hubris' and simply
mentioned that Obama's experience and her own weren't that different,
but the campaign should be about service to this country. After all
Abraham Lincoln had little experience when he was nominated...

If 'grace' was part of her character, Hillary would have
stood up for Barack OBama when he was slammed over the
Jeremiah Wright controversy... she knew Rev. Wright was at
the White HOuse in Bill's hour of need. But she said nothing.

If 'grace' was part of her outward personna, she would have
included Obama in her list of those who pass whatever presidential
litmus test she imagined.

But then, attemtping to be gracious myself,
I wish her well, and know that whatever the American people
decide will be a welcome change to the last eight years.

I know that in this political climate,, grace is not a issue
we can afford to ignore.

[Muttocracy]

59. agreed nt

[mythyc]

106. great post n/t

[mainer]

23. Wow. You expressed my feelings exactly.

I'm a woman of a certain age, too. I started off wavering between Hillary and Obama. And now I am so disappointed with -- even angry at -- Hillary.

[democrank]

25. Apropos title and penetrating journal entry, NG.

Once I ended my unprincipled habit of automatically sticking up for Hillary Clinton, I allowed myself the luxury to step back and observe. Not only was I deeply disappointed, I began to question my earlier support. Was she always willing to win at any cost? Did she always alter her positions to gain optimum political benefit?

I don`t care how many blue collar workers corporate media assign to Hillary`s camp, Clinton`s political machine has one goal...power. That means any barricade to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue will be destroyed, even if it means McCain must be elevated and Obama debased in order to do it. The gears are ordered into action, the IOUs called in and the eyes trained on the prize. Change became the enemy along with the grassroots calling for it. I honestly believe the fight within the Democratic Party is between accepted, automatic enthronement and change. Ask the DLC.

There really is very little difference in essence between the Clinton`s method of operation and Karl Rove`s. One clear example (of many) was the use of race baiting once it became clear the black vote majority was jumping ship. Another was Hillary`s Iraq War vote, handed over as positive proof of her rightwing patriotism. It doesn`t add up in my book that someone known for consistent attention to detail could have gotten fooled by the likes of Junior Bush.

Hillary Clinton was so certain of her rightful entitlement to this nomination that she made a fatal mistake. While she was focused on getting in good with the Right, she totally missed what was marching up over the hill on the Left.

[BeyondGeography]

26. She's turning this campaign into a hostage crisis

and the media is starting to pick up on it.

[OzarkDem]

45. What part of Obama adopting Bush & Reagan's foreign policy do you like?

[cliffordu]

81. Oh, Fock, ANOTHER one?

I like the part where the monkeys flying out of your butt make your posts for you.

[TahitiNut]

94. The monkeys make more sense.

[Lisa0825]

96. !!!

Someday, I am gonna use that line on someone!

[Voice for Peace]

91. Obama's foreign policy critique.. have a read

http://www.alternet.org/audits/80623/

[BeyondGeography]

27. Double post

[ecdab]

28. There is a diversity of opinions that people hold as to why Hillary

should drop out of the race. I think your piece speaks for many. Perhaps some of Hillarys supporters will read this and underatnd it even if they disagree with it.

[shadowknows69]

29. Great piece Nance

[sniffa]

30. She stoops to conquer

Good piece as always.

[Stuart G]

31. Your last sentence says it all...it is about integrity..she now has none.

[SaveAmerica]

32. You must have read my mind, this is exactly how I feel except I had hoped to vote for her...

Every word you wrote makes so much sense to me, but at this point it's like pouring a cup of water on a fire. It's as though reality is not making it through to this campaign.

This sentence stands out the most to me: "I am truly heartsick that the Hillary Clinton I admired for years is gone – or, more sadly, perhaps never existed other than in my own imagination." I wish the vision that I had still remains.

[Enthusiast]

128. Save America,

It was the very same sentence that said it so well for me.

I must have felt this way when I learned that Santa Claus was a myth. I guess I wanted to believe The Clintons were more than they actually were.

[SaveAmerica]

195. We just have to make sure all of our politicians know they're being watched and

we're holding them accountable, no matter their party.

[JerseygirlCT]

33. Oh amen. You said it perfectly

And if Hillary Clinton is willing to put aside anything in favor of personal ambition, what makes us think that would change once she's in the WH? She's showing that what matters most is HER, not US. It's a huge disappointment.

[KittyWampus]

35. I'll say it again. Hillary is emotionally ill & the hangers-on feeding off her campaign making money

don't care enough to help her start the process of letting go.

There is indeed a point when one realizes a dream must be let go. It's a process.

Hillary refuses to go there. And this denial is hurting the Democratic Party and prospects for the 08 Election.

[wildeyed]

36. I grew up seeing Hillary Clinton as a role model.

My younger sister worked tirelessly on her husband's first campaign. I have defended both of them endlessly. And now I am very angry with her for her recent behavior. As Leahy said, she certainly has the right to continue to run, but does she have a reason?

[OwnedByFerrets]

37. Nailed it....

As Always

[KansasVoter]

38. Great post! (eom)

[NashVegas]

41. I Started to Put This Thread On Ignore. Wish I'd Carried Through

Because by the time I got 2/3 way through, all I could think was, "oh, bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit."

Hillary Clinton and her campaign haven't done anything any other candidate, that actually wanted to win, wouldn't do.

In a game of this variety, anyone who is the sort of player who would voluntarily would take themselves out for greater good will never have a chance of winning, anyway. Whichever candidate is genuinely running for the greater good of the people will never bear the title of President of the United States of America.

[dailykoff]

44. That doesn't make any sense at all.

As to the thread, yes, it's sad, but the sooner the Clintons go away the sooner we can reconstruct our slightly shopworn false memories about their "accomplishments."

[goldcanyonaz]

46. The OP has always been Anybody but Clinton. It's a typical hitpiece by her.

And, she thinks she's so cute with the "Over the Hill" comment.

[K Gardner]

57. That's just a flat-out lie and you know it.

[slinkerwink]

61. Many of us liked Hillary Clinton at the start of the campaign, supported her in the 90s

but the candidate Hillary is now is nothing like the candidate she was at the start of the campaign, and I find that to be sad and rather disturbing.