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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 05:56 PM
Original message
Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain



McCain lost five U.S. Navy aircraft.


Navy pilot John Sidney McCain III should have never been allowed to graduate from the U.S. Navy flight school. He was a below average student and a lousy pilot. Had his father and grandfather not been famous four star U.S. Navy admirals, McCain III would have never been allowed in the cockpit of a military aircraft.

His father John S. "Junior" McCain was commander of U.S. forces in Europe later becoming commander of American forces in Vietnam while McCain III was being held prisoner of war. McCain III's grandfather John S. McCain, Sr. commanded naval aviation at the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

During his relative short stunt on flight status, McCain III lost five U.S. Navy aircraft, four in accidents and one in combat.

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it."

McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.

McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."

McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.

Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fourth aircraft loss occurred July 29, 1967, soon after he was assigned to the USS Forrestal as an A-4 Skyhawk pilot. While seated in the cockpit of his aircraft waiting his turn for takeoff, an accidently fired rocket slammed into McCain's plane. He escaped from the burning aircraft, but the explosions that followed killed 134 sailors, destroyed at least 20 aircraft, and threatened to sink the ship.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.

After being drug from the lake, a mob gathered around McCain, spit on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was bayoneted in his left foot and his shoulder crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

After being periodically slapped around for "three or four days" by his captors who wanted military information, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, "O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital." -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant." Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain.

When the communist learned that McCain's father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., the soon-to-be commander of all U.S. Forces in the Pacific, he was rushed to Gai Lam military hospital (U.S. government documents), a medical facility normally unavailable for U.S. POWs.

The communist Vietnamese figured, because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, that he was of royalty or the governing circle. Thereafter the communist bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot and collaborations with the enemy by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.

McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.


http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mcc...

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/index.h...
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. i hope to christ this dies
i wouldn't care if he was a dental assistant in seoul

he did his time, he got out, he came home

this issue is can he run the country?

and of course, he can, right into the ground
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bookmarked!
Thanks! :hi:
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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. It's not nice, or right...but it is effective...
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Oh Please.. God ... NO......
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 06:28 PM by Johnny__Motown
I read ever post of yours I can. I have great respect for your opinion and the way you present it.


Please look into this story. Notice that there isn't even an author listed for the first link. (the story cut and paste to the OP)


Swift boating is a Repuke tactic and not to be tolerated.

If we try to turn the debate to McCain's war record the odds are we will lose. All our time will be spent on the years he devoted to the defense of our nation and the price he paid in doing so. Also we will be exploring the fact that he is a third generation navy man.


He has a career beyond simply being a POW. There is footage of his plane being hit by a rocket while on board the USS Forrestal. You can see him jumping out of the burning plane and running from the explosions of bombs and gas tanks. If the author of that slime post is counting that plane as one of the 5 he says McCain lost he is an ass. If he counts the one he was shot down in when he was taken captive he is again, an ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

(there is better footage than this.. History channel has shown it but I don't see it on Youtube)
134 people died on the Forrestal that day.


The only way to deal with McCain's record is to pivot to Iraq and Afghanistan ever time it is brought up. Look forward, not back.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. It was amazing video footage
MSNBC did the hour show of each candidate and they had this video, you can see McCain jump from the plane, he was on fire, and rolled to put it out, then helped his fellow servicemen until he was sent to the hospital.

incredible.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. how in good conscience can we swift boat him? I know I can't
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. McCain was the one that stood by Kerry against the swift boaters
There will be blow back on denigrating his military service beyond imagination

I know several dem vets that are voting for him, if McCain gets all the vets mobilized behind him, well, I don't want to think how ugly this would be
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. I saw this on Engineering Disasters a while ago (I think; one of those shows anyway)
I had no idea McCain was involved. I agree that the article is junk, there a plenty of issues related items to go after McCain on.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is just bull shit. Get mccain on his voting record. The S&L scandal
with the Keating 5, the refusal to honor Martin Luther King with a day

His vote approving torture, his stand against abortion, EVEN IF THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS AT STAKE

His embracing of extremely anti-Catholic preachers

and of course his entire voting record

That is more that adequate why he is not qualified to be president


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. It is good to have in case it is needed.....
Although McCain will be restricted by public financing rules, the 527s will be out there. Soooo, you never know! Depends on how out of line they get.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. We don't have to worry about that Frenchie, the ted sampleys will
do that, and like you said the 527s. They won't be ours though. If they come, they will come from the EXTREMES of the repukes

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. No matter how out of line they get.
I don't want to win this way.

My parents are vets and if anyone questioned their service I'd punch them in the mouth.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. There will be a lot of mouth punching
Imagine how many military families there are in this country

This is not a 'winning' strategy


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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Yeah, there's plenty of stuff to bring up
without crapping on his military record.

His suffering should give him a pass on that.

That being said, he would make a lousy president.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. 20 hours in combat?
I learned something new.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That's in a jet, much different than being on the ground.....
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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I'd compare this Guiliani and 9/11
Undoubtedly, each man acted bravely, and selflessly.

However, where they heroic to the extent they have claimed? I mean, if they each keep talking about it all the time...at some point you have to go back and looks at the facts.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Nice smear. Specious and intellectually corrupt, but nice.
A couple of years in the Hanoi Hilton has NOTHING to do with wandering around NYC getting soundbites.

I'm thinking you should try a couple sessions with the same scumbags that tortured him, maybe you'd talk out of the other side of your mouth. If you could talk at all.

:hurts:


That being said, McCain has NO business being anywhere near the nuclear weapons. Ever.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. maybe on that mission but McCain graduated flight school in 1960 nt
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Isn't This "Group' The Same One That Swiftboated Kerry?
Why would anyone here link to them?
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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. It depends how nasty the republican campaign gets towards the dem nominee
If we have adverts saying 'Obama is Muslim' then, possibly you do have to fight just as dirty.

Of course, this sort of thing can backfire as well.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. There were actually two groups
That's what most people don't get. Kerry had dealt with Sampley many times over the years, he knew their nonsense, he wasn't worried about them. He had knocked them down early in the year, no problem.

The Swiftboaters were new. Some of them were people who had stood by Kerry against the Sampley bunch. The claims were completely new, beyond belief. Who would believe anyone could get away with ridiculing purple hearts and a bronze and silver star. Who would believe the media would carry such stunning lies.

The Swiftboaters were taken seriously where the media knew Sampley was a nut for years.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ted Sampley and Kiley also formed Vienam Veterans Against John Kerry
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/AntiMcCain_vets_ready_the...

I'm no fan of McCain but consider your sources and their history.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. Swiftboating is soooo 2004.
Let's not go back there. It sucked then, and it sucks now.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. This is despicable.
At least we found it despicable when this was used against Kerry.

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galaxy21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I think Mccain 's a hero, but if he keeps talking about it all the time obviously as some point
people are going to try and discredit it.


I'd think a lot mre of Mccain if he didn't mention his POW status in every speech/interview he does.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I agree, we have a chance to show we are not like them.. and here we are acting just like them
When the best of us act like the worst of them we have already lost.



This party has the clear chance to show that we are strong and smart on national defense and we support our troops MORE thant the repugs ever have or ever will.


WE can be the national security party for decades to come, if only we handle this situation correctly.



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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. It still is
but if Obama is the nominee and they use crap like this it will be a all that is needed to see the independent party explode with new registration

Also McCain is the one that stood up against the swift boating of Kerry

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5612836 /

WASHINGTON - Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerrys military service dishonest and dishonorable and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

The White House declined.

It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me, McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, comparing the anti-Kerry ad to tactics in his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
21. Please lets not do this
My Father and Mother are Vietnam Veterans.

My father was an Army Ranger and lost friends and saw things I have fortunately never had to seen. He volunteered for service after getting a degree in Chemistry and was never drafted. He spent 10 months 20 days in country in 1967-1968. He was awarded the bronze star for his service. He was denigrated for his service by some and called a baby killer after he returned. It weighed on him heavily for the rest of his life. It was only during the past 15 years he felt he could "come out" about his service to his country and wear a Vietnam Veteran hat. It never left his head till the day he died last year of Pancreatic Cancer. He was 66. The worn out hat he wore for those years is one of my most pride possesions.

My Mother was the daughter of a coal miner who served his country in WWII. She got the Army to pay for her education as a nurse. She served her country over in Vietnam in 1970-1971. She saw things worse than my father and was awarded the bronze star for her service. She voted for McGovern in 1972 to try to end the war.

Please lets not politicize the service of anyone who went to that country. Even John McCain or the medals he recieved or what he may or may not have said as a POW.

Vietnam is over and we need to honor the people who served during that time.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Amen
Those that try to use McCains military service to this country deserve to lose, in more ways than one.
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GoldieAZ49 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. a bit more factual information - he is lucky to be alive - repeatedly
from wikipedia

Note that he graduate flight school in 1960 and in 1966 requested combat service

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Military_servi...

John McCain's pre-combat duty began when he was commissioned an ensign, and started two and a half years of training as a naval aviator at Pensacola,<18> where he also earned a reputation as a party man.<6> Graduating from flight school in 1960,<19> he became a naval pilot of attack aircraft. McCain was then stationed in A-1 Skyraider squadrons<20> on the aircraft carriers USS Intrepid and USS Enterprise,<21> in the Caribbean Sea and in the Mediterranean Sea.<22> He survived two airplane crashes and a collision with power lines.<22>
On July 3, 1965 McCain married Carol Shepp, a model originally from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.<13> McCain adopted her two young children Doug and Andy;<23><21> he and Carol then had a daughter named Sidney.<24><25>
McCain requested a combat assignment,<26> and in December 1966 was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal, flying A-4 Skyhawks.<27><28> McCain's combat duty began when he was thirty years old. In Spring 1967, Forrestal was assigned to a bombing campaign during the Vietnam War.<13><29> McCain and his fellow pilots were frustrated by micromanagement from Washington;<30> he would later write that "In all candor, we thought our civilian commanders were complete idiots who didnt have the least notion of what it took to win the war."<29>


McCain being pulled out of Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi and about to become a prisoner of war<31> on October 26, 1967.
By then a Lieutenant Commander, McCain was almost killed in action on July 29, 1967, while serving on Forrestal, operating in the Gulf of Tonkin. He was at the epicenter of the Forrestal fire. McCain escaped from his burning jet and was trying to help another pilot escape when a bomb exploded; McCain was struck in the legs and chest by shrapnel.<32> The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors and took 24 hours to control.<33><34> As Forrestal headed for repairs, McCain volunteered for the USS Oriskany.
John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his twenty-third bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.<35><36><37><38> McCain fractured both arms and a leg,<39> and then nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.<35> After he regained consciousness, a mob attacked him,<40> crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him; he was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Loa Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".<40><41>
Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused medical care, instead beating and interrogating him to get information.<40> Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care<40> and announced his capture. His status as a POW made the front pages of The New York Times<42> and The Washington Post.<43>
McCain spent six weeks in the Hoa Loa hospital, receiving marginal care.<35> Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,<35> McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi<44> in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.<45> In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.<40>
In July 1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.<2> McCain was immediately offered early release.<35> The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.<40> McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.<46>


President Richard Nixon greets the released John McCain.
In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery,<40><35> and McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession."<35> He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,<47> but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."<40> His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.<48> He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.<49> Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions",<40> with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.<50>
McCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.<40> From late 1969 on, treatment of McCain and some of the other POWs became more tolerable after disclosures to the world press of their condition.<40> McCain and other prisoners cheered the B-52-led U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972 as a forceful measure to force North Vietnam to terms.<40><51>
Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was finally released from captivity on March 15, 1973.<52>
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
31. Problem is if you attack him on his service
you look bad especially now during war. Most of America thinks he's a war hero and it would look like what they did to Kerry if anyone talked down about his service even if it was the truth.

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