a jewish perspective on "pastorgate"

[unblock]

i can't speak for christian churchgoers, but as a jew i can assure you that the number of templegoers who are not happy with their rabbis is LEGION!

sure, there are plenty who love their rabbi and plenty who are indifferent. but plotting to get a new rabbi is a very common pasttime at temple.

why is this so?

probably the main reason is that jews usually do NOT chose their temple on the basis of who the rabbi is. to some extent this may be because there are simply fewer temples to choose from. nearly every community in this country is chock full of churches, but there might be only one synagogue for many miles. you choose your community and your temple first, then you choose your rabbi if possible. hence the plotting :evilgrin:

beyond that, there are many reasons to join a synagogue other than to here, specifically, the rabbi's opinion about a few controversial things. people want to meet up with neighbors and friends who share something in common. it's not always important that it's religion that brings them together so much that it's a share heritage or even just an ice-breaker. people also join a synagogue to build contacts that may serve them outside of temple. business contacts, social contacts, political contacts, etc. all this has little to nothing to do with the rabbi.

finally, even if one DOES focus on the rabbi, well, like your favorite politician, you're remarkably unlikely to agree with him 100% of the time on absolutely everything. this is simply because all people are different and have at least slightly different views.

you don't quit temple because the rabbi said something stupid or controversial. usually you just meet up with people afterwards and laugh or cringe or cry. maybe, at most, you join the plotters to get a new rabbi. the temple belongs to the community, not the rabbi.


as far as i'm concerned, obama denounced and rejected the comments and basically called them the 5 stupidest things the pastor had ever said. that's about as clear-cut as you can get in disavowing the views.

[truedelphi]

1. And then there are those of us Catholics and Ex-Catholics

Whose clergy wasn't exactly distanced - even after the scandals there.

Barack is expected to have monitored every word out of Wright's mouth - and ten years earlier, the good Catholic Parents wondered why the priests spent so much time with the kids.

Like they say, hind sight is twenty twenty.

[Mooney]

2. It's a faux controversy manufactured by a losing campaign.

Nobody gives a shit. And the more they try to resurrect it, the less effective it becomes.

This is known as "The Lw of Diminishing Returns."

[PA Democrat]

3. It's the same with Catholics. The priests are still anti-abortion and anti-contraception, but

the truth of the matter is that most Catholics use birth control. Most Catholics were outraged by the way the Catholic church handled the problem of pedophile priests, but few left the church over the issue.

[noel711]

4. Thank you!

As a member of the clergy,
to hear your perspective, as a progressive,
I am so grateful!

What I've heard from the media (and on this board) has
for the most part, been very narrow, and judgmental
in regards to membership and leadership of faith
communities.

You are right on target with a community of faith.
Most congregations are NOT based around the leadership personality
of the pastor/rabbi- but the congregation has a life of its own,
a personality of its own, and its own lay leadership.

In my experience, I've known many wonderful ministers,
pastors, priests and rabbis who have the confidence
(dare I say chutzpah?) to say controversial things
from the pulpit.. sometimes to get the folks to think,
and sometimes, to play 'devil's advocate' to get
them engaged.

And many times, we say things the people needs to hear,
those things they don't like,
those things they don't agree with,
but the must hear.

That was the role of the prophets in the scripture,
and they would have been on the 'hit list.'
Look at Elijah and Jeremiah... they were vilified.

[stray cat]

5. Religious institutes are communities not cookie cutters of a pastor or rabbi

I've left a church because of its stance on women's roles but not because of a statement made by a preacher particularly if I generally liked the pastor.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. As an adult I have chosen my church based on the pastor & congregation. I couldn't go

to a church just because it was close by if it had seriously fundy leadership. But as you say, I certainly don't agree 100% with the one I have, but that's because I am a liberal Christian married to a conservative one and we had to compromise on our choice of church.

[unblock]

8. walking to temple is mandatory in many jewish communities

shabbat is a day of rest, not work. so there are many things you're not supposed to do on shabbat and driving is one of them. granted, in these communities one tries to chose one's home based on proximity to one's temple of choice. but even still, the temple can get a new rabbi after you've moved in and you may not care for the new rabbi.

so what's to do then?

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. That's true for some people, and I bet it would make it hard on them to

have a rabbi they couldn't stand. They'd probably be "stuck" at their temple.

[TahitiNut]

13. Indeed it is. Highway departments know this well in many communities.

... as well they should. :thumbsup:

[theredpen]

28. That's a very "Protestant" attitude

I don't mean that to sound insulting in any way, but the fact is that if you are a Protestant in America — particularly a "non-denominational" Protestant — you usually have a huge variety of options in terms of where you attend church.

If you're in a more narrow denomination such as Armenian Orthodox you are likely to have only one choice (unless you live in Watertown Massachusetts or other large Armenian community). This could also be true if you're particularly attached to a specific Protestant denomination or if you're a Mormon (and the Mormons are not as monolithic as people assume).

[Leopolds Ghost]

32. As a Protestant myself (as Anabaptist I've NO options) just look at the disaster of Baptist church

The American Baptist Church is run on an explicitly capitalistic, business model of viral growth and cancerous competition between churches. There is no doctrinal commonality or central synod, democratically run or otherwise. The only central voice, the SBC, was founded on an explicitly racist and fascist agenda that is not in keeping with the so-called (falsely claimed) Anabaptist roots of the American Baptist church (which is actually a Calvinism, the belief that only a tiny minority will go to heaven.) No attempt at doctrinal commonality is fine if there is a respect for diversity, but in the Baptist church it is all about competition between churches, war to squash the liberal pastors and build up the congregations of the demagogic, TV-oriented entertainment megachurches (like Wright's church, sadly enough.)
There is no attempt to honor common principles, only a desire to worship the text of the Bible as a fundamentalist tract, with each pastor interpreting the Bible to honor his own perverted selfish creed of universal self-aggrandizement. The Baptist church all but drove MLK and Carter out of the ranks, as historians have discovered. This is not religion, it's Wal-Mart.

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. I was raised protestant, but I'm open to many flavors of churches and

spiritual experiences. As you say, that gives me a lot of options.

My hubby is the other thing you said. He is a specific denomination, so that means we drive 45 minutes to get to church on Sundays. But as I said, if I really couldn't stand it there I would not go with him. (I used to feel like I had to go where he wanted me to, but as I have gotten older I have gotten more assertive about my own wants and needs. :) )

[Scurrilous]

7. K & R

:thumbsup:

[Algorem]

9. know what you mean.i only go to ritual human sacrifices because

i can meet&greet and it advances me socially.

[unblock]

11. tee hee hee!!

:rofl:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. thank you and another comment

Obama's speech is getting viewed more often than highly rated tv shows.

I think that his way of addressing the issue DOES show that we have more in
common than we have to divide us.

We are talking about race and religion in a different way. About how we are more alike
than different.

[FrenchieCat]

14. isn't that the truth!

We are alike more than we are different. Amen!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Interesting observation.

3 million views would be 600% of a typical KO night.

3000% of an evening with Tucker. :D

[roseBudd]

15. Leaving or not leaving a particular religous organization can be painful, I have read of

evangelicals who spoke out about things that bothered them regarding political interference from the pulpit and basically were kicked out. The decades of relationships they had built up were suddenly gone.

[stillcool]

16. I do not think Pastor-gate

is moving anyone, except the 'media', racists, and some Clinton supporters. After 3 solid weeks of excerpts being played 24/7, I think this orchestrated outrage has not had the effect that was desired. In the time I spent in Catholic Church not only did I not agree with the Priest, I didn't even listen to him. Other Churches I have attended have been more of a social event than a spiritual one. I've had what I consider to be "spiritual advisers" through my time spent in AA, and these people were certainly friends. But I can't imagine having to defend their beliefs, or articulating my own.

[Saturday]

17. Reminder, Wright was Obama's mentor. It's not as simple as you make it seem. nt

[unblock]

20. ...

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

21. and Obama turned out great

Obama is of a different generation. He wasn't raised in a Christian church,
and he had to decide which part of him to be - black or white.

Obama's books show what a thinker and listener he is, and how he naturally
works out problems and works with people.

[Thickasabrick]

29. It's not as complicated as you are trying to make it nt

[noel711]

35. What is your definition of 'mentor'?

Did Obama show up in his church a 'tabula rasa'
with no education, no experience, no opinions,
no thought... just an empty vessel?

I don't think so. Obama had completed all of his
higher education, was doing community organizing
and the local pastors told him he needed to settle
down in a local church to get better known in the community.

And, as a pastor myself, I may serve as spiritual advisor
to folks and provide advice, prayer and counsel,
but I don't tell them what to do, what to say, what to wear,
where to live. They are individuals with free will.

Rev. Wright is not the puppet master, pulling all of
Obama's strings...

[David Zephyr]

19. K&R.

:thumbsup:

[jillan]

22. Ummm - my family quit our synagogue because of the Rabbi while I was growing up.

A few years ago I went to a new Temple for High Holiday services, and never went back because of the rabbi.

Twice in my lifetime. So I beg to differ.

[unblock]

26. i didn't mean to imply that it NEVER happens

just that it's hardly the simplistic situation that those promulgating the "scandal" make it out to be -- as if the guy giving the sermon says one outrageous thing and anything short of quitting the church then and there is the moral equivalent of having made the statement yourself.

if everyone quit as soon as the sermon-giver said something objectionable, there would be a WHOLE LOT more quitting going on.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. So the temple/church is just four walls and a roof to you

Not a consecrated body that extends beyond your personal wish to hear a rabbi tell you something you agree with.

[unblock]

45. actually, judaism doesn't view a temple the same way christians view a church

the church is the place of worship in christianity; the home is the place of worship in modern judaism.

in fact, jews sometimes refer to a synagogue as a "shul", yiddish for "school", because of the emphasis on education over worship per se.

some prayers do require minyan (10 or more adult men) and so the temple is a useful community gathering place for this purpose. however, there's nothing particularly sacred about a synagogue; generally, you can pray anywhere, with preference being in the home.

[grantcart]

23. The abbot at our buddhist temple is hoping to get a green card so he can leave the monk hood

we all know it but what can we do?

[theredpen]

24. This is also precisely the same for Orthodox and "ethnic" churches

If you're Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox or even if you want to attend a church where they have services in a language other than English or Spanish, you aren't going to have a lot of choices, if you have any choice.

Even if you do have a choice, it's not always easy. My Aunt and Uncle were members of the same Missouri Synod Lutheran church for 40 years. For about the last decade (since Bush), the pastor adopted the hateful, fearful tone set by the Bush administration (of the two major Synods of the Lutheran church in America, the Missouri Synod is the most conservative). There was another Lutheran church they could join, but it took until last year for them to finally be fed up enough to say "goodbye" to their spiritual home of some many years.

They are life long union-member Democrats and will vote for Obama (or possibly someone else) in the fall, but culturally, they are like a lot of Midwestern Republicans — nice, church-going people. They understand what it means to be part of a faith community, as does most everyone else who is part of a faith community, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, and even some http://www.churchoffreethought.org/">atheists.

[Leopolds Ghost]

30. This goes to what I think -- if I were Missouri Synod I might stay in the church and fight

To encourage other Christ-centric teachings were heard in the congregation, that not everybody should necessarily agree with the pastor.

The only tipping point for me (and I face it in my family's own rapidly gentrifying church) is when the congregation completely changes and there is nobody left whom with to associate with. Only then does it become a question of do you like your pastor. And WHO THE HELL renounces their pastor or rabbi (or teacher or professor) purely because they disagree with them on political issues? Whatever happened to trying to get along with people who you disagree with politically or theologically?

To go pastor-shopping on the basis of political or minor doctrinal disagreements is illiberal by definition. It implies a desire to forestall debate within the faith community, to isolate oneself among people you agree with. People who don't like what their church is teaching have a positive solution; they can go form their own church. Short of that they are just hypocrites who want to take their ball and play with friends.

[Leopolds Ghost]

25. As a Xtian, I find the Rev. Wright thing an attack on Religion by a McCarthyite fascist elite regime

Who wants to ensure, as one Hillary supporter (pastor) emphasized, that all politicians disavow "any church or religious speaker who says anything that is against the interests of this great nation." They are indeed LEGION: They are Anti-Christ. CHRIST WAS NOTHING IF NOT ANTI-AMERICAN IN THE MODERN (STATIST CONSERVATIVE) SENSE OF THE TERM.

They are asking Obama not just to disavow a pastor's more controversial, boneheaded remarks; they are asking him to turn his back on an entire denomination, to disavow ALL the teachings of liberation theology, to publically declare that an entire religious order is to be shunned, and to disavow the notion that Christ was a radical who would have agreed with many of Wright's remarks.

All to centralize state control by a secular elite over a religious tool of control by banishing liberals from religion, forcing them to renounce their church and deny liberal interpretations of Christianity, while ultra-fascist interpretations are considered the norm and the only acceptable interpretation of state monitored religion and its purpose: to advance the fascist agenda.

For politicians to come out and demand cafeteria style church shopping as a religious test for public office is to demand of public officials that they must not take their religion seriously, that they must deny any interpretation of their religion that does not advance the interests of the secular economic elite. They must stab their pastor in the back in order to prove their loyalty to the economic order, like St. Thomas A Becket.

Fuck this "god bless America"/"god damn America" shit. It's not applicable. Both Wright and his opponents are fools,
hypocrites, and Jesus would have said so. Nations are made of people. You can't bless or damn a nation-state.

Jesus or Isaiah would have condemned the CITIZENRY of America for their damnable hypocrisy. And been called Anti-American for it.

And been targeted with anti-semitic remarks. Just like MLK was targeted for his "anti-American" statements.

[Thickasabrick]

31. As a person - I think all this religious shit is bogus. nt.

[Leopolds Ghost]

33. So you want only conservative interpretations of religion are acceptable in public discourse

Because you disagree with them. Meanwhile you will gang up with the right-wingers on religious voices you otherwise agree with, because you want to unilaterally disarm religion in politics and ensure that religion becomes a tool of the fascist agenda and politicians are forced to renounce any and all liberal or radical voices within the church -- or within any other network they belong to. Pure McCarthyism.

This is exactly like the double standard folks apply to race. It's ok for white Republicans to say hateful things without being called on it because they are expected to. But you're willing to side with Repubs to tear down a democrat. Or the double standard on the Mohammed cartoon issue -- opposition to religion trumps your opposition to anti-semitism.

[Thickasabrick]

34. Um...no, I said all this religious shit is bogus. It's a strawman. It

doesn't mean anything. I'm not saying religion isn't important to some people, it just shouldn't be part of this equation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. I said "no religious test". The fascist propaganda machine has established a specific religious test

Liberal or radical interpretations of Christianity, whether uttered by the candidate or someone distantly related to the candidate, will not be tolerated. Those who "harbor" or "tolerate" such voices will be treated like traitors, terrorists, spreaders of plague. Simultaneously, those who actively preach hateful politics that are fueled by right-wing, state-centric religious beliefs will be vindicated and treated as the only acceptable interpretation of religion. The proper response to this is not to say "religion doesn't matter anyway, not to most liberals." That says we agree with the notion that lefties are not allowed to be Christian and vice versa. And once liberalism is reduced to only those people who are totally irreligious while religion has been reduced to the tool of a media-dominated, fascist state, they will be left defenseless and you'll have another Kristallnacht.

[Thickasabrick]

39. Ok...I agree with you and you make excellent points. But I, as a

liberal, am sick of hearing about christian values, jewish values, islamic values, etc. I'm all for freedom of religion but not when it starts to creep into legislation and discussions concerning government. People keep talking about it and it just seems to be getting worse. What is the solution?

[Whisp]

36. what a great post, thanks.

I've always thought that people who demanded Obama leave his church just don't get it. church is a lot more than your pastor - it's community, it's friends, it's about connection, about the charity and good works, so why should Obama leave all this just to satisfy some spin ghouls.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. To prove, like JFK was asked to prove, that he doesn't take religion seriously enough to be a threat

Because Americans find his religious beliefs threatening --

-- but they have no fear whatsoever of Republican widespread and skewed notions of Christianity that they use to justify raping and pillaging the landscape in the name of law and "middle class values".

[unblock]

46. great last point. had obama left, it actually would have been a very cynical, political move

he displayed more political courage and character by staying.

[skater314159]

40. K&R !!!

Thanks for such an awesome post!

:toast:
:pals:

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Catholics Agree With 100% of What The Pope Says, What's Wrong With You?

Considering the lengths to which the Catholic church went to cover up the sexual abuse of young boys, you'd be surprised that there are any Catholics left in America. Considering the fierce denunciations of abortion, you'd think that would knock out the few remaining church goers (and the anti-war stuff would take out any conservatives). And yet, somehow people are able to seek spiritual guidance and an affirmation of God from people and institutions they may not agree with on every issue, let alone every dumbass comment made.

[anonymous171]

43. This Catholic agrees.

I remember going to a church whose priest was very anti-choice. But I somehow managed to sit through his tirades because he was also very anti-war and wanted to end poverty. Nobody is perfect.

[Chovexani]

44. And this would be why I left monotheism entirely.

I will never understand the mentality of "you don't get to pick your pastor", or sitting in a community that preaches against things you hold dear. Hell, I don't understand needing middlemen between myself and the Divine in the first place. I can understand the community aspect of it, (though I've never needed it, because I'm by nature a lone wolf). I just don't get the passively sitting week after week listening to someone spout batshit and staying because he/she is supposedly anointed by God and therefore is more qualified than you are. This "my guru right or wrong" stuff just does not work for me.

Maybe it's because in Paganism, we approach these things differently. We don't have holy men and prophets--everyone receives personal revelation and when people try to put forth their UPG (unverified personal gnosis) as The Truth For Everybody All the Time, people tend to laugh and ignore it. Pagan High Priests and High Priestesses are teachers and advisers but they are not gurus. They don't achieve their position because they are somehow closer to the Gods than other people, it's because they've had more experience and can say things like "HAY DUN POKE THE WASP NEST, IS BAD IDEA". If my teacher is full of shit, it's my duty to say so. If he/she continues to be full of shit, it's my duty to leave and find instruction elsewhere. One of the reasons I kind of lost touch with my mentor/adopted father/HP is because his wife is a batshit insane egomaniac that pretty much alienated all of his students with her crazy and is running the coven into the ground. He's too blinded by his feelings for her to tell her to cut the shit out or make her step down, so we all left.

Hell, I didn't even stand for that shit when I was still a Christian. I left the evangelical megachurch my family still goes to because I refused to support an institution run by a man who is a regular speaker at Promise Keeper rallies, and wrote misogynist & anti-gay screeds into his books. I don't care that he was a good teacher when it came to theology. My mom, an evangelical and lifelong Dem, is always watching Joyce Meyer on tv despite the fact this woman regularly calls the Dem party the tool of Satan. Why? "Because she has some good teaching sometimes."

It's like battered spouse syndrome and I will never understand it.

[unblock]

47. judaism views rabbis the same way.

rabbis are not annointed by god nor any closer to god than anyone else. they have merely studied more. anyone adult can lead a jewish service.

many christian churches evolved because a preacher traveled to a town and started preaching and built up a ministry. catholics, of course, have a very formal hierarchy of proximity to god via the pope.

jewish synagogues are run and built by the lay leadership who hire a rabbi, and often don't even have a rabbi at all, especially in smaller communities where it's hard enough just to get enough jews together, let alone someone who has actually trained as a rabbi.