The Rev. Wright controversy on DU is about atheists attacking Christians

[Renew Deal]

again.

[MercutioATC]

1. Ummm....no

I'm atheist and I have absolutely no problem with what Wright said. I mostly agree with him.

[Drachasor]

4. /signed

Additionally, most of those clips were taken completely out of context. They are not representative of the sermons they were in, let alone Wright's Sermons in general.

[Cheap_Trick]

15. atheist here too

and I fully support Wright. His comments were cherry picked and an attempt was made to destroy a decent christian by a so called christian.

[Maine-ah]

32. I'll make it 3

[Drachasor]

39. You meant 4, silly

[Adelante]

67. 5 nt

[ellacott]

2. I don't see that

I've seen some of the most intelligent and understanding posts coming from atheists on this board.

I think a lot of the controversy comes from those who are looking for a reason not to like Obama and for those who are intolerant of things they don't understand.

[The Night Owl]

3. Considering that the Bible contains passages which put unbelievers in the same category as...

Considering that the Bible contains passages which put unbelievers in the same category as murderers, can you blame some of us atheists for being wary of fiery preachers?

[theredpen]

10. I expect them to be wary of fiery Rabbis

The Christian religion is not bound by the Hebrew laws mandating the stoning of unbelievers or whatnot. Of course, ignorance doesn't seem to be a stumbling block for atheists as they seem to think that they know everything about a subject they claim to want nothing to do with.

I always find it interesting that atheists are willing to attack Christians for Jewish tenets that they would never attack Jews with.

For the record, Rabbinic Judaism has mode those draconian religious laws unenforceable, so the Jews shouldn't be tarred with them either.

[The Night Owl]

12. Most of the Biblical passages which label infidels as evildoers...

Most of the Biblical passages which label infidels as evildoers are found in the New Testament.

Anyway, I realize that Christians don't feel that infidels should be stoned to death, but the fact that they worship a God who supposedly throws infidels into a lake of fire for all eternity is never far from my mind.

[theredpen]

16. Not a single passage in the New Testament advocates doing anything bad to unbelievers

Only a minority of Christians, worldwide, believe that God throws anybody in a "lake of fire." The Pope has officially pronounced that there is no actual "Hell," so most of the world's Christians are supposed to take that to heart.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Edit: The "lake of fire" is mentioned only in Revelation, which is a prophetic book written in code. A large portion of scholars — and I — believe that it describes events that all happened in the 1st century and is of historical interest only. The fact that such an obscure feature of Christianity is so prominent in your mind says a lot more about your mind than it does about Christianity.

[The Night Owl]

22. I haven't argued that the Bible advocates doing bad things to unbelievers.

What I wrote is that the Bible puts unbelievers in the same category as murderers.

[theredpen]

31. OK, where does it say this?

You keep moving the goalposts and changing your terms here.

List a citation.

[The Night Owl]

34. See post #30. {EOM}

[fifthoffive]

25. Hell is still being used to frighten people into becoming Christian

Big billboard in my town advertising the Franklin Graham Revival has the following in large red lettering in the center:

Hell is Real

Below, in much smaller white lettering, so much smaller that I completely missed it the first two times I passed the sign: So is Heaven

Had to slow down and look closely to see the reference to the Franklin Graham Revival.

Not particularly effective advertising because you have to look so hard to see what they are really advertising. You're likely to run off the road, be killed and find out first hand if they're right.

The Grahams are considered fairly mainstream Christian aren't they?

[theredpen]

28. Graham is mainstream only in America

And I know "We're #1" and everything we say goes worldwide but — you might want to sit down for this — most of the world thinks we're fucking nuts. It's not just our foreign policy, but our version of religion as well.

[fifthoffive]

62. Duh!

The point is that in the US, the Grahams are considered mainstream Christians. They preach a brand of religion reliant upon hell to gather the sheep into the fold.

I would wager that most Christians in the US fervently believe in some construct of hell.

I am an atheist, so my version of hell is having people trying to convert me all the time.

[skater314159]

64. They are NOT "mainstream". nt

[skater314159]

63. Only by Baptists, Fundamentalists, and Evangelicals.

Which is the minority of Christians worldwide. (See my other post above)

America suffers from having a very high number of the fundies and evangelicals living here... but it all began with the fact that we got the Puritans coming here to "settle", so you could say America has a history of harbouring religious nuttery.

Unfortunately freedom of religion means people have the freedom of choosing a stupid faith.

[skater314159]

21. Actually...

... it's demons that are thrown into the flames for eternity. They are immortal and cannot die - so like Charon the wounded immortal Centaur, they feel pain and suffering, but cannot die.

Humans are obliviated - they are not immortal, so go into nothingness - or dissolve when God withdraws his presence from them.

The modern statement that people can be thrown into a lake of fire and suffer forever is a misunderstanding of a cultural and philosophical tradition that had nothing to do with Second Temple Judaism - Hellenistic Paganism - but that was imported into Christianity. People who hate synchritism (like modern Christian Fundies) will run into trouble when they try to keep things that came from Paganism while not understanding Paganism.

Your statements show you don't know Judaism, Christianity, or Paganism.

EDIT: I recommend you read something about Second Temple Period Judaism, Pythogoreanism and The Myth of Er from Plato in Republic (10.614-10.621).

[The Night Owl]

24. What I mean is that many Christians worship a God who they believe...

What I mean is that many Christians worship a God who they believe throws infidels into a lake of fire. Of course, the Bible's position on what happens to infidels in the afterlife is open to interpretation.

"The infliction of cruelty with a good conscience is a delight to moralists. That is why they invented Hell." - Bertrand Russell

[theredpen]

"many Christians"

First it was "Christians," now it's "many Christians."

So far not a single citation of what you claim is in the Bible either.

Ignorance is not a point of view, The Night Owl.

[The Night Owl]

30. Biblical passages which portray unbelievers as evildoers...

Psa 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[skater314159]

35. First off, why do you insist on using the Authorised version?

Or as it is called here in the US - the KJV?

That is usually the sign of a fundamentalist or ex-fundamentalist; if you really want to discuss this with me, I prefer either the Masoretic or Septuagint. I will accept Coptic or Russian Orthodox translations.

[The Night Owl]

38. Regardless of what the Bible you read says...

...millions of Christians subscribe to a version of Christianity which defines infidels as evildoers.

[skater314159]

40. So it doesn't matter if it REALLY says that or not?

Wow.

You ARE a bigot.

[The Night Owl]

42. What the Bible really says is often a matter of opinion.

We can argue until the end of time about what the Bible actually says and never come to an agreement. My point is that the view that inifdels are evildoers is quite common in Christianity.

[theredpen]

45. The Bible says what it says

The text is there for all to read. Ancient manuscripts have startlingly little variation. I don't see where you get the idea that we don't know what's in the Bible. It's written down.

[The Night Owl]

48. Bizzare reasoning. {EOM}

[theredpen]

53. What?

We are having a discussion about the content of a book and you claim that it's bizarre to actually refer to the text of that book, rather than the opinions of people who haven't actually read it?

THAT'S BIZARRE?

Put. Down. The. Pipe. And. Seek. Help.

Now.

[skater314159]

60. Actually...

...it's not that common.

Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians are a minority within Christianity.

The majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox; within the Catholic camp there are Roman, Byzantine, Gnostic, and Reformed Catholics. In the Orthodox there are many different groups based upon different Patriarchs, Languages, and nations.

If you said "infidels are evildoers according to a minority sect that is quite common in the United States, particularly the region known as 'The Bible Belt'" then you would be correct and I could assent to your statement. Your pov is ignorant of actual demographic data.

[The Night Owl]

65. As a person who was raised Catholic, I can tell you that...

As a person who was raised Catholic, I can tell you that I was taught, wrongly or rightly, that not believing in God is a mortal sin which must be repented.

[theredpen]

71. Maybe you need to be slapped by a nun again or something

But you've posted an unending stream of bullshit.

You started with the Bible having "passages" (plural) that put unbelievers the same as murderers and you found one (singular) passage, which does not have the meaning that you claim.

You then claim that "Christians" believe that is means what you say.

Then you backed off to "many Christians."

Now you're saying that you don't think that those Christians are really authoritative.

What is this really about?

[theredpen]

44. So regardless of what the Bible actually says, it says what you say it says?

There is one version of Christianity. The one in the Bible. You can criticize Christians for getting it wrong, but you can't Christianity for their misapprehensions any more that you can criticize cosmology for the fact that they believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

For the record, the sole New Testament verse upon which you hang your entire point says this:

τοις δε δειλοις και απιστοις και αμαρτωλοις και εβδελυγμενοις και φονευσιν και πορνοις και φαρμακοις και ειδωλολατραις και πασιν τοις ψευδεσιν το μερος αυτων εν τη λιμνη τη καιομενη πυρι και θειω ο εστιν ο θανατος ο δευτερος

"απιστοις" (apisteo) is "apostate." An apostate is someone who claims to believe something but really follows a corrupted belief. If there is any truth to this verse, it is the people misinterpreting the Bible who should be worried about it, not the people who never subscribed to it in the first place.

This verse is not about the kind of unbelievers who buy Sam Harris books.

[The Night Owl]

46. I have clearly argued that the Bible is open to interpretation.

I'm trying to have a conversation about what Christians believe their Bible says, not about what the Bible actually says.

[theredpen]

50. You don't know what "Christians" believe their Bible says

You don't even seem to be aware that there are different branches of Christianity and that the one you have decided to cite as typifying belief is, in fact, a minority sect.

[theredpen]

36. So I'm right.

4 references. 3 in the Old Testament. 1 in Revelation, which is in code. You can't just pull a passage out of Revelation and expect it to have any useful meaning.

Again: ignorance is not a point of view. If you want to make claims about what the Bible says, you should study it seriously.

[The Night Owl]

41. The Gospel of John is in the Old Testament? The Epistle to the Hebrews is in the Old Testament?

I think not. Only one of the passages I cited is from the Old Testament.

[theredpen]

49. Oops

I skimmed your bullshit fundie notation (a dead giveaway really). My bad.

1 John 2:22
τις εστιν ο ψευστης ει μη ο αρνουμενος οτι ιησους ουκ εστιν ο χριστος ουτος εστιν ο αντιχριστος ο αρνουμενος τον πατερα και τον υιον

"ψευστης" (pseustes) means "liar" in the sense of someone who holds up a false front (from psuedo, meaning false). The previous verse tells the reader that the reader knows the truth. This verse is about someone denying something that in their heart of hearts, they know to be truth.

If you are someone who speaks truthfully — from the heart — this verse does not apply to you.

Hebrews 3:13
βλεπετε αδελφοι μηποτε εσται εν τινι υμων καρδια πονηρα απιστιας εν τω αποστηναι απο θεου ζωντος

απιστιας (apistia) is another variation on "apostate." This, again refers to someone who has outwardly claimed faith in God, but does not really trust that faith, or follows a corrupted version of that faith. This does not apply to people who don't have faith in God at all.

What you say is in the Bible is not in the Bible.

Edit: Fix formatting

[The Night Owl]

58. A dead giveway? Huh? I don't deny that the passages I posted...

I don't deny that the passages I posted are from a version of the Bible used by Christian fundamentalists. As I wrote earlier, my point is that many Christians worship a God who they believe throws infidels into a lake of fire.

[theredpen]

59. Why did you decide that THEY get to define Christianity?

Why not — oh, I don't know — maybe the Catholics? Maybe the Greek Orthodox?

Why did you decide that a group of people that's been around for roughly a century would be the source of the interpretation of Christianity that you would breezily pretend to be mainstream?

[The Night Owl]

61. I'm not arguing that any one group gets to define Christianity. {EOM}

[skater314159]

66. Yes you are. You are INSISTING Fundamentalism *IS* Xianity. nt

[skater314159]

68. You are wrong... it's NOT a majority...

... EXCEPT in the UNITED STATES.

What part of that don't you get?

And you are so ignorant you don't even realise you contradicted yourself. You said THE MAJORITY of texts come from the NT, when your own citations are 75% from the Torah and Tanakh! The NT passage you have comes from the literary genre of Apocalypse (hence the name) which is meant to be mystical and allegorical - NOT literal.

You try to state something, but the facts contradict you. You are an excellent example of what the OP was stating.

[The Night Owl]

73. Huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_the_Hebrews - The Gospel of John (literally, According to John; Greek, Κατά Ιωαννην, Kata Iōannēn) is the fourth gospel in the canon of the New Testament...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John - The Epistle to the Hebrews (abbr. Heb for citations) is one of the books in the New Testament...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelations - The Book of Revelation, also called Revelation to John, Apocalypse of John (pronounced <əˈpɒkəlɨps>, from Greek Αποκαλυψις Ιωαννου, Apokalupsis Iōannou), and Revelation of Jesus Christ is the last canonical book of the New Testament...

[skater314159]

69. Did you even read the post "oops"? Its from TRP, not me! nt

[skater314159]

74. They believe an impossiblity that contradicts basic Theology.

They are wrong.

Bertrand Russell considered Communism and Socialism forms of religion, and thought they, like all other faith were "useless".

EDIT TO ADD: I don't think Bertrand Russell was right on his views of Socialism, Communism, or Religion. He should have stuck with philosophy of langauage and mathematics, at which he as a genius.

[skater314159]

19. Thinking all Christians believe that is a bigoted statement on your part.

Thanks for giving an example of what the OP was stating.

[The Night Owl]

27. I don't consider Christianity to be monolithic. {EOM}

[theboss]

5. You know, normally I'm hyper-sensitive to that, but I don't think it's the case this time.

I thought it was honestly more about the fact that DU is 98 percent white.

[skater314159]

23. True dat. nt

[Lerkfish]

6. no, it seems more like the kitchen sink being thrown at Obama

pure politics.

[Hepburn]

7. Well, I am an atheist....

...and other than Rev Wright got a bit wound up and went over the top, I really do not have much of a problem with what he said.

[Apollo11]

8. flamebait

Your OP is too short to be considered as a serious contribution to the discussion here on DU.

[bunnies]

9. WTF?

As one of DUs atheists... I find this post incredibly offensive.

[madinmaryland]

51. I'm not atheist, but the OP really leaves me asking WTF?

On edit:

But then again, it looks more like a post and run, as there is are no responses by the OP.

[theredpen]

11. There is a well-established anti-religious tone on DU

And, yes, the vitriol coming from people who clearly have no familiarity with having a healthy component of religion in their life has been the strongest.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

13. Totally, completely disagree. The Wright controversy is about Clinton supporters attacking

Obama, with a healthy dose of reluctance to admit that slavery might actually still have an effect on today's world.

I would be willing to guess that if you took a poll, the majority of people that find Wright's comments racist or disturbing, are white Clinton supporters.

[theredpen]

17. And Freepers...

But the Clinton's latest flip flop has morphed the Wright controversy into being about her deflecting negative attention.

[SwampG8r]

14. hmmm

ok
ive been "attacked" for being new and haveing a newbies post total
ive been called troll because i am new
ive been called sexist for supporting obama
ive been called spammer for calling for hillary to step aside for all our good

but
in all my posts and several have made reference to my belief in God
not once in all the dirt tossed has anyone ever
i repeat
ever
made any form of comment as to religious beliefs
pro or con

as a newbie and someone who is still learning the way its done on DU
i am concious of no form of religious oppression

actually you should all take a minute
and give yourselves a pat on the back for this one DUers

[skater314159]

29. Welcome to DU!

There are some places here where it can be a bit bad... the R/T forum can be one.

If you are a part of a particular faith group, there are groups for Liberal Christians, Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, and people on unique or Pagan Paths. I contribute in some of those groups, and you might enjoy some of them too.

Hope you continue to have a good time here on DU!


skater pi

[Vinca]

18. No it's not. I'm an atheist and I agree with much of what he says. nt

[genie_weenie]

20. Bru ha ha ha ha ha

Godless Athesits Rise Up! We have been discovered, it is time to Unveil Devil May Come Plan Alpha Zulu! Rawwwrrrr.....

[Mooney]

26. Oh stop.

I'm an atheist and I agree with most of was Wright was saying.

[LittleClarkie]

33. I've only seen one or two threads that fit that description.

Mostly it's Hillary vs. Obama, again.

Furthermore, that would be like saying Hillary supporters are atheists and Obama supporters are Christians, and I don't think that's strictly true either.

Flamebait, dude.

And I'm saying that as an Obama supporter AND a Christian.

[immoderate]

37. Fiddlesticks!

I'm an atheist, and I support much of what Rev. Wright says. I don't think you can turn up a single post where an atheist has blasted Wright on his Christianity. I'll be here.

The controversy is Hillary supporters, turning a blind eye to her Dominionism, and taking an unfair whack at Wright.

Atheists realize that most Americans take comfort in their stories, and we're not going to get a candidate who promotes rational thinking in these areas.

--IMM

[Hamlette]

43. don't be silly, we atheists are the ones who liked what Wright said. n/t

[Recursion]

47. There is a definite narrative of DU'ers who are uncomfortable with the fact...

...that Obama is so comfortable with his religious beliefs, generally using a comparison to the current pResident, as if his problem were too much religion rather than too little (here's a hint: he ran on Jesus in the primaries and immediately stopped talking about him after that).

[JoFerret]

52. Those poor christians

there are never enough lions to eat them all.

[DemzRock]

54. Wright is an atheist? I doubt it. haha n/t

[northernsoul]

55. Hell-bound apostate and an Obama supporter here

and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Please clarify.

[stillcool]

56. No. It is really quite simple...

It is about a pack of rabid dogs going after Senator Obama via his Pastor. No more, no less. By using excerpts from one Sermon out of more than 30 years of Sermons given by a 72 year old black preacher it is crystal clear that they could give a shit about who the reverend is, or what he has said and done over his lifetime. They will not be sated until every drop of life blood has been sucked Senator Obama's Campaign, and they don't care what human being they have to slaughter to do so.

[GodlessBiker]

57. And what's wrong with atheists attacking Christians? It's a time honored tradition.

Along with Christians attacking atheists.

[skater314159]

76. Why attack anyone?

What do you get from it?

[GodlessBiker]

80. Oh, I don't know. Ask Mohamed Ali.

[skater314159]

82. Hey, he didn't attack, he BOXED!!!

I love hockey fights...

... I just wish we could unite to kick McCain's and the *-ites' asses instead of tearing each other apart.

Jeeez, if we can't all get along, at least let's attack the other guys instead of each other!

[Adelante]

70. I don't know what your thinking is, Bleach

To me, an atheist, this is about a politician and a politician.

[Indenturedebtor]

72. Seriously?

I'm an Atheist Obama supporter who goes to synogogue and plays "fill in the blank" when the G word comes up

The Wright controversy was all about politics plain and simple.

But I tell you what... you better look out next 12/24. I'll be there with my posse, at YOUR house to steal your JesusMass!!!!!!!!! OMG NOES!!!!!!!!11111111111111!!!!!!!ELEVEN

http://thedryspot.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/grinch.jp...

[gmudem]

75. Well this post is basically whiney bullshit

I'm an atheist who agrees with most of what Wright said. The complaining about Wright is coming from freeping trolls and Clintonites still trying to smear Obama as the scary black man that Amurka should be afraid of.

As an Obama supporter the OP should stick to who the real opponents are in this debate, not just inventing them because he doesn't like atheists.

[skater314159]

77. So you say there isn't religion bashing here on DU? nt

[gmudem]

81. Did you read my post?

Because it didn't have anything to do with that, and I'm not trying to get involved in that argument. And AFAIK, most of the Wright bashing is decidedly NOT coming from atheists.

[Forkboy]

78. Good...feed 'em to the lions again!

Hey, one stupid OP merits one stupid reply.

[yardwork]

79. I'm a Pagan and I have strongly supported Wright.