Can you imagine the Swift Boaters w/ Hillary in the GE

[peaches2003]

They would destroy her about lying that she was in a combat zone during wartime in Bosnia when it was so safe she took her only daughter and 2 entertainers with her. It will make what they did to Kerry look like child's play.

[Perry Logan]

1. Having been at DU for a while, I find it very easy to imagine.

[NashVegas]

4. Pretty Much What We're Seeing Right Now, N'est ce Pas?

[Arkansas Granny]

2. Can you wrap your imagination around what they would do to Senator Obama in the GE?

As you must realize, if they don't have something factual to use, they will just make it up. Senator Clinton has already shown in the past that she can stand up to the RW smear machine.

[ClassWarrior]

3. Yes, that's why she has record negative perceptions in the general public.

NGU.

[peaches2003]

6. But with Hillary they don't have to make anything up.

They have the facts, tapes of her speeches bragging about her comcat escapade in Bosnia, and the film showing it all was a lie.

[Dogmudgeon]

8. The RW have plenty to use against Obama.

Team Obama just likes to keep their talking points going. They think they can't lose so they don't have to play fair.

God Damn America beats out Bosniagate (or whatever they're puffing it up as) hands-down.

Same for Michelle Obama's awkward remark about only being proud of America lately. And for the "typical white person" quote. I'm certain that there are a few more the RW will dig up.

They refuse to see that Obama has any liabilities at all, and think that when anything negative is said about Obama, it's all just a Hillary smear tactic. They are certain that Obama's damage-control speech, as good as it was, is the new "I Have A Dream" and "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You" wrapped into one YouTube link.

Those swift boats are being gassed up even as we speak.

--p!

[Kahuna]

10. Obama didn't say, GDA. But thanks for playing. nt

[Arkansas Granny]

13. And do you think that the swiftboaters are going to point that out to their audience

when they play those clips? Get real.

[Dogmudgeon]

15. A dismissive Obama supporter? Say it ain't so!

On the other hand, Obama doesn't have to have said "GDA". The clip will get played over and over and over and over. Willie Horton wasn't Michael Dukakis, either, but the ad worked.

Barack Obama is likely to win the nomination, so let's frame it that way. When he wins, the feces hit the fan. And the entire "Movement" is completely unprepared for it. They -- you -- think defeating John McCain will be as easy as defeating Hillary Clinton.

However, while the press hates the Clintons, it loves McCain. The party will definitely be over.

So while you busily think of new, hip ways to dismiss anyone with whom you disagree, the Republicans are thinking of new, not-so-hip ways of destroying Barack Obama. And they get a two-fer in the destruction of Hillary Clinton by a lovestruck press -- who will none the less come back to Papa McCain.

Guess what? I'll be right there, working to shut down the swift boats and get Barack Obama elected. Even though his followers on DU tend to be trolls who have thrown their own kitchen sinks at my candidate and at ME. So if YOU want Barack Obama to be president, you'd best be coming up with ideas for how to shut the SBs down, too.

--p!

[ClassWarrior]

16. Now I know why you all think Clinton will get a free ride from the Radical RW...

Her new best buddy is the man who accused her of murdering Vince Foster:



NGU.

[Dogmudgeon]

17. She's just "reaching across the aisle".

Isn't that what the Obama Movement is all about?

Kumbayah, baby!

--p!

[ClassWarrior]

18. More like she's reaching around something. Do you understand the difference between...

...Rape-Publican power brokers and voters who have been deceived into identifying with them? Or are you purposely trying to blur the two?

NGU.

[Cha]

19. You haven't shown you can tell who the liar is..

Obama has proven he can stand up to hilary's stupid smear machine with grace under pressure.

[lapfog_1]

5. All they got to do is drag out a bunch of decorated

marines that served in Bosnia... and have them talk about serving under sniper fire and what that's really like...

I would say "stick a fork in her, she's done" but I don't know if there is room for one more fork. And she isn't done, apparently. Not until she has assured her chance of running in 2012.

[Franks Wild Years]

11. 2012 is over.

She can never run now. This isn't just a little white lie.

If I'm Hillary Clinton and I want any sort of politically relevant future, I'll be on my hands and knees BEGGING Obama to let me serve in his administration on the proviso that I bust my gut undoing the damage I've done and helping him get elected.

[lapfog_1]

14. You may be right... but I don't think she has gotten that message yet - n/t

[splat]

7. Swiftboaters attack phony combat bragging; did Hillary claim a purple heart?

[TheDonkey]

23. It's worse Kerry had credible soliders defend him. Hillary is on tape frolicking

on the tarmac

[karynnj]

27. Are you saying that Kerry's very real combat bravery was bragging?

1) He did, per Navy records get the Silver Star and the Broze Star with valor - and even the Nixon administration didn't challenge that.

2) Give me even one quote where Kerry "bragged" of that bravery. The words he used in his speeches were "that as a young man he served his country". That is understatement given the truth. The ONLY mention of the medals I recall from Kerry in 2004, was before the firefighters and then he simply said the truth was what it was 35 years ago - the Navy gave him his medals - which he simply listed.

Kerry has been in the public spotlight since 1971 - there are NOT any accounts where he bragged of his medals. There are accounts where he spoke of the Vietnam but not specifically himself - mostly it has been to generalize to what soldiers face.

Kerry certainly never exaggerated his record.

[Kahuna]

9. Imagine a photoshop of Hillary as Snoopy's Red Baron. nt.

[Mezzo]

12. You're kidding, right?

you think that comes close to the bigot pastor, you're deluding yourself. His freaking NAME is a liabaility in the general...just look at how his supporters go beserk, and his name is not made up.

[ShortnFiery]

20. My brother is a combat vet and I'm also acquainted with many family members

and military veterans having served four years in the Army and being married to a (now retired) jarhead for close to 26 years.

I'm here to tell you, her LYING about "ducking sniper fire" within a combat zone will hurt her electability MORE than any old association with the Rev. who brought Barack to Jesus.

Combat Veterans as well as your regular military member do NOT take kindly to people who LIE about being under fire. Any Independents and Military Members who are Democrats (and there is a significant percentage especially within the Enlisted/NCO ranks) will be APPALLED about HRC lying about her arrival at Tusla.

This story has legs to members within the military community as well as military veterans.

In essence it will result in her political annihilation in the GE.

[Dogmudgeon]

21. What military are you talking about? The Andorran Navy?

Obama makes misstatements, but Hillary lies. Got it.

Go outside for a few minutes and ask some of your neighbors about "Tuzlagate". Do you think more than one person in fifty will even know what you are talking about? And that even one in five will think worse of her without your ranting about how evil she is?

This is a Big Honkin' Deal to you because of your longstanding hatred for Hillary Clinton, period. Anyone who has forgotten where they put the keys will roll their eyes and think the story is a scam to cover up for Rev. "God Damn America". Which I imagine that your regular military members don't take kindly to, either. "Appalled" does not even begin to describe their anger.

Here's the no-bullshit version: "God Damn America". It not only has legs, it kicks the military in the balls and laughs. Do you really think that this is a matter of ego for anyone except you? I cringed when I first heard it. And you and me and every Democrat in the USA will have to deal with it FREQUENTLY in the likely event that Obama wins the nomination. So get used to it.

I lived in a military town for more than half of my life. My Dad was a chief. He had 4 years in the Navy and 37 in the Army. I grew up in a suburb between a Naval air station, a NADC, and a Nike-Ajax base. So I think I know military people pretty well. And a ranting wingnut screaming rage at the USA raises more hackles than a rabbity civilian any day of the week. You might as well be saying that Jane Fonda is okay for shooting her damnfool mouth off about the wonderful VC, but John Wayne is a traitor for being an actor and not actually serving.

Meanwhile -- John McCain. Valiant soldier, but frightening politician.

--p!

[bhikkhu]

22. Wright wasn't screaming rage - it was warning

the same as his namesake spoke for Israel. You might be surprised at how many understand it, and how resonant it is for much of the military. From myself, entirely nonreligious, living in a town of veterans and USAF. Wright is a Marine with a resume of good works longer than anyone I know. Give him a listen and another chance.

[SunsetDreams]

24. What "misstatements"

did Obama make?

Obama did not make the statement "GD America"....he wasn't there when it was made.....he repudiated, rejected and denounced it....his pastor was retiring which is why he didn't change churches upon learning of it.....It has no more legs, he answered it, and put it to rest.

Unlike Hillary....Bosnia, Ruwanda, Northern Ireland.....all lies

Schipp Childrens health insurance, she took credit for, which she had nothing to do with, Democrats who did and got it passed are pissed

Nafta....lies lies lies.....she was in full support of it as evidenced by WH documents, and her own public statements on video.


She claims Rezco, which has no legs, although her own Norman Tsu story does.

She and Bill Clinton are being sued for fraud Paul vs Clinton, which will go to trial April 25th.

She refuses to release her taxes, earmarks, and Clinton Library donors.

She has lied and been secretive for months and months.....How the heck is anyone supposed to trust her in the Presidency...GWBush has lied to us all for 7 years, I don't want anymore of it, thank you.

[SunsetDreams]

25. not to mention

she takes money from lobbyist who run things in Washington, she lied about her vote on the IWR, the worst blunder in recent history.

She said she voted for Diplomacy, although the bill said "Authorization to use U.S. Armed forces Against Iraq"

Sorry 4000 dead, she can never apologize for that.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Did you read my post? I didn't think so.

Take a minute or two to read it.

* * *

Okay, now we can discuss the issue.

First, you responded to a post I made responding to a rant. SNF was calling down hellfire onto The Evil One for her confabulation over Bosnia. She made the claim that military personnel would be outraged over this, but NOT over Rev. Wright's remarks.

You say Obama "put it to rest"? Maybe with his own admirers -- yourself, for instance. I guarantee that like a zombie, it will rise from the grave to stalk Obama. Jeremiah Wright said, yelled, "God Damn America". And you think that's going to go away because The Anointed One made a good speech? Jane Fonda said far less and is being stalked for it 40 years later.

Then I noticed you threw your own kitchen sink, bringing in a dozen or more topics unrelated to Hillary Clinton by any criterion. And I've seen most of them since the 1990s -- by the radical Right.

Yet you went to some lengths to exonerate Obama. That's a double standard. You have fallen in love with your hero, and all rivals are therefore evil beyond human comprehension. All of Obama's faults are explained away, from David Axelrod's unsavory past (far more committed to Excelon than Mark Penn's second-hand associations through his PR firm) to Obama's own "misstatements" over incidents he wasn't even involved in, like the Canadian story af a few weeks ago.

And I remember when DU was outraged by the Democratic congresspeople and senators who voted to keep the war going -- until Barack Obama's name turned up on the list.

But your strategy of "Kill Hill" is probably going to succeed. Not only is Obama likely to win the nomination, but Hillary will soon be sleeping with the political fishes, while a million gloating hipsters giggle.

Who do you lie about then? Who will you have to defame? Who will be your hate receptacle, the butt of your jokes, the buttocks to your belt? You will discover that Barack Obama is not a God-Man, and you will turn on him, the same way you turned on George McGovern in 1972, Jimmy Carter in 1980, Walter Mondale in 1984, Michael Dukakis in 1988, Al Gore in 2000, and John Kerry in 2004. (You turned on Bill, too, but Bill stood up to your bullying. Which is why you still love Bill anyway. You just displaced your rage to his wife.)

What about ME? Am I just some Hillarybot intent on harshing on your happy? If you've even read my sig, you will know that *I* have a problem, too. The day after your scapegoat hangs it up, I'll be at DemHQ signing up for the toilet-scrubbing brigade. I am committed to Democratic victory in the fall, Obama or Clinton. Which probably means that when the unending "God Damn America" loop begins to play, I'll have my own hands full trying to convince my neighbors that It Really Isn't Obama's Fault After All.

And YOU have a decision to make. You can continue with your self-righteous outpouring of hate and lies (and blame that it's really all Hillary's doing), or you can start to understand this from a party perspective. WE have a big honkin' problem; several of them, in fact. And as much as the press has fallen in love with Obama, it still loves Papa McCain like an abused child loves Daddy Quickfists.

The LESS hatred you pour out, the MORE enthusiasm we, your conquered enemy, will have. Verbum sapienti and all that.

--p!

[karynnj]

30. You seem to project your own views on the rest of us

You say " Who do you lie about then? Who will you have to defame? Who will be your hate receptacle, the butt of your jokes, the buttocks to your belt? You will discover that Barack Obama is not a God-Man, and you will turn on him, the same way you turned on George McGovern in 1972, Jimmy Carter in 1980, Walter Mondale in 1984, Michael Dukakis in 1988, Al Gore in 2000, and John Kerry in 2004. (You turned on Bill, too, but Bill stood up to your bullying. Which is why you still love Bill anyway. You just displaced your rage to his wife.)"

I know you are wrong in my case and I suspect others:
I still have a "Don't blame me, I voted for McGovern" button - which I care enough about I wouldn't give it to a daughter who wanted it.

I never liked Carter, I couldn't get past some of his more conservative views, but I respected him as a good man who did some good things. I luckily only learned that he had a "Lt Calley" day long after I voted for him twice - but my opinion is, if anything, better than in 1980 and I always thought it was bad that he was given no honors at Democratic conventions (until Kerry's)

Mondale never had a chance - I preferred Hart, but my opinion of Mondale lukewarm positive stayed the same.

I liked Dukakis before he lost and afterwards - there's something about him that makes him seem a nice guy.

I respect and like Gore far more than I did when I liked him (though preferred Bradley) in 2000.

Kerry was the candidate I was most impressed with in my entire voting life - yet seeing him in the Senate, working for 2006 and supporting Obama, I am more impressed than ever.

Now Bill Clinton - I realized reading DU, that I was really ABB in 1992, but I defended BC for 8 years - even when he was not defendable. I now think that - even though he was a 2 term President - he was the WORST thing that happened to the Democratic party in my lifetime. Any Democrat would have won 1992 - so we traded at most 4 years in office for the Clinton legacy.

[Dogmudgeon]

31. "I know you are wrong in my case and I suspect others ..."

I think my only error was poor use of third-person plural hyperbole -- applied primarily to the Democratic Party, which regularly turns on its own; and to you (or any individual) only incidentally. If that was unclear, and it probably was, I apologize. But you still ought to consider the intra-party cannibalism and the emotionalistic impact of anti-Clintonism.

I don't think I was that far off in the historical particulars. Even with regard to the candidates you liked, you may recall the scorn that all of them got. McGovern, Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis were all unjustly made into laughingstocks, not just by the GOP but by "our own". John Kerry has been bashed well and often here for not fighting hard enough, especially by our more-progressive members. You should also review your statement that any Democrat would have won against Bush. The 1992 election was quite close. Most anti-Clinton Democrats blame this on Bill, but the mass media played a big part, including Bush's advertising and the deep pockets funding it.

I just deleted a few paragraphs here about the Clintons, I realized that the hipper half of the Democratic party will always view them in the most uncomplimentary light possible. I cited job creation, increase in consumer optimism, the reduction in both domestic crime and world violence, and recalled how many times those accomplishments have been denigrated. Which brings me to my original point -- the social cannibalism. For any number of not-necessarily-good reasons, the Clintons are our favorite hate objects, and that opinion is nearly always held with a curiously strong passion. Hillary could run against Adolph Hitler and she would still be blamed for defaming the dead AND subsequently causing her own downfall. So why argue?

However, my next question (it's rhetorical, you don't have to answer it) is: since Obama is inevitable, since there is no way Hillary can possibly win, then why is so much effort being made to "beat the bitch"? The venom, bile, ill-will, and, yes, the hatred is being poured freely even by those who have long preened to show their objectivity. The ostensible reason is that Yes, She's That Bad, but basic honesty would show that hyperbole to be false even if Hillary out-badded Elizabeth Bathory and Lucrezia Borgia. This is an intra-party dogpile -- just as it has been so many times before.

There is something that you should know, in light of the good-and-evil thinking that has become common around here. I am committed to Democratic victory in the fall. I may have my criticisms of Barack Obama, but I have always thought that he was a decent choice for the presidency. Which means that the morning after he receives the nomination, the Democratic Party can count on me to clean the Augean Stables -- with a toothbrush, if necessary.

I think that Obama will win the nomination. I think Obama will be the next President. And I am certain that, if my "predictions" are right, within a year or two Obama will become one of the most scorned Democrats since ... Bill Clinton.

All the more so if he is effective.

And this, we have to change.

--p!

[karynnj]

29. Maybe not now - but imagine what the number would be when the RW

floods the airways with it.

[bigtree]

28. They will savagely attack ANYTHING in their way

who doesn't know this?