The DU I Remember

[Patsy Stone]

We were always suspicious of questionable government searches.

We believed in separation of church and state.

We fought for the First Amendment rights of Americans -- all Americans.

We believed America's foreign policy had something to do with the reasons behind 9/11.

We laughed together at Stephanie Miller, and cheered Keith Olbermann on for speaking truth to power -- even, and especially, when it hurt.

We believed this is a nation of laws, and breaking the rules has its consequence.

The thought of voting for a Republican over a Democrat was unheard of, and those it was heard from were quickly escorted out.

FOX News was seen for the propaganda it is.

Racism and sexism were only found in links to Free Republic.

There were a lot more laughs, and most people here were decent and kind to each other.

---

Anyone else remember that place? Or is it just me?

[JVS]

1. Well GD:P was created to save GD from the slime. But yeah. There were happier days.

[Patsy Stone]

4. There was a link

to an Olbermann Watch video on the front page this morning. ???

It's not so much the trolls and paid operatives, because they're easy enough to spot, but it's the long time DUers saying things I never thought I'd see here that just kills me. All in support of one candidate over another.

[JVS]

7. Don't worry, sweetie darling. When we have a presumptive nominee, the trash will be removed.

[JoFerret]

77. "The trash" ...."removed"

Now who are "the trash" and what does "removed" mean?

[JoFerret]

75. I agree with that

I don't think the "extremists" have any idea how self- destructive they are being. And by "self" I mean DU, the democrats, and the candidate of their choice.

[Patsy Stone]

118. I agree

:toast:

[lligrd]

2. And Then Hillary Ran...

[JVS]

3. It wasn't that she ran, it's that she started to lose.

[lligrd]

Can't Argue That! nt

[hfojvt]

104. No it wasn't even that

it's that many DUers passionately support her. In a group that sorta prided itself as being very left wing, there were actually staunch Hillary supporters. Then there were the noobies too, many of them very vocal and obnoxious.

[usrbs]

116. I'm left wing and support Hillary. So?

If you think Obama is anything but a centrist you're in for a cruel surprise if he gets elected. He's slightly to the left to her on civil liberties, she's to his left on economic issues. Edwards was to the left of both, but he's gone.

I must have missed your appointment as keeper-of-the-gate of Leftistan. Please provide a link, and I'll slink off to the shadows.

[JoFerret]

76. You will soon have driven yourself quite crazy

Monomania and the inability to see more that one angle does that.

[lark]

100. Uppity woman, how dare she?

Quoth Obamatron - only the annointed one, the saint can run!

[Texas Hill Country]

125. it's because of attitudes like yours.

[Melinda]

5. Not just you. It's *this* forum in this year, & man -- is this crowd tough!.

Lots of disuptors. I'm hoping we have a nominee by June. Probably best just to avoid this part of DU for now. :)

[Cooley Hurd]

6. Excellent post, Patsy!

And I thought the 2004 primaries were tough on DU. This season, it's friggin TOXIC! But, don't fear, DU will be back to it's old self once the losing candidate realizes she needs to step down for the good of the COUNTRY.:hi:

[Patsy Stone]

23. Does November even exist?

Or is it just a mirage? :hi:

[Cooley Hurd]

25. Jesus, I hope Hillary gets out before November!

:D

[Patsy Stone]

35. ...

You know what I meant... :)

[lark]

101. What are you going to do

if a miracle happens and she wins the nomination?

[better tomorrow]

8. Remember, the Bushies are still at war.....

and they left Afghanistan and Iraq and are now fighting with us here.....

[nolabels]

79. That has got to be a punch line in a joke some where

The easiest way to find out if someone supports republicans. Tell em some truth and see if they get mad :-)

[dysfunctional press]

9. you just forgot how to get there- you made a wrong turn and ended up in gd:p

nt

[Patsy Stone]

11. I hate when that happens.

:hi:

[Seabiscuit]

90. Yup. gd:p is the freeperville of DU.

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. & Bill Clinton was Big Dog.

However, that wasn't what you were getting at.

[Patsy Stone]

12. Nope, that works too.

Thanks; I remember it.

[mkultra]

14. ahh how i long for

the milk and honey of the bill Clinton days of old.

[flowomo]

13. but a lot of this unpleasant stuff was always just below the surface...

and, you know, in line with Obama's speech, I believe it was important that it surface here and be discussed and debated and argued and inspire anger and confusion here). He put race on the table -- offered an open and honest analysis based on his experience -- and asked us all to engage the issue with him and each other. He didn't say it would be pretty -- but it would be real, and really necessary. So also, what you have seen here in recent weeks is real, and really necessary. We may no longer see DU as the place where "we're all enlightened people who know and rally to what is right and know and shun what is wrong," but that was an illusion anyway. We have seen a more honest DU in recent weeks -- one that reflects the beauty and ugliness of the real world, and which exist simultaneously in all of us to some degree.

[Patsy Stone]

15. True enough

And I agree. But a lot of the things I mentioned started even before then. It's been a bad trip in here since Edwards dropped out.

[Gold Metal Flake]

16. A great conflagration...

...in lieu of a real choice.

The higher the outrage, the greater the capitulation.

There was a time in this country when there was a very real choice. Now, we just make the best of what is left. Others try to make it seem real. I know better.

[lark]

102. Real change

went off the table the moment John Edwards left the race. All that's left are two centrist, corpratist Dems, and anyone who doesn't see that just isn't looking at reality. There was an article in the paper this am showing each candidates contributions from Wall St. Hillary and Obama were dead even at 6 million, McCain has taken in 1.2 million. What's that tell you?

[ClassWarrior]

17. Cheers Pats...

:toast:

The real DU is still here.

NGU.

[Patsy Stone]

18. Just hiding

in the bathroom?

Please send food under the door.

NGU

:toast:

[ClassWarrior]

20. I've participated in some great bathroom parties...

...believe me.

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[Patsy Stone]

21. Y'know

I believe!

:)

[texpatriot2004]

26. Cheers ClassWarrior, here's to NGU eh

:toast:

Nice to see you friend. I haven't been posting much lately but I am still here at DU and I agree with you, we should NGU!

[ClassWarrior]

32. Dang, it's old home night at DU...

:toast:

Good to see you, Buddy! Don't be such a stranger!

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

47. You read my mind. Old home night at DU, that's what I was just

thinking while reading some of the posts on this thread. I am still a regular reader. I have been working full-time and things have been kind of hectic at home too for months now. I miss having the time and energy to make a positive contribution here at DU. When I first found DU I wasn't working full-time...grateful to be working but I miss the good old days eh. Often times I think I would like to pen a thoughtful thread but as of late I can't seem to put my thoughts together in meaningful ways, or to put enough thoughts together to create entire threads.

Anyway, it always a comfort to know that my favorite DUers are still alive and well.

Take care my friend. Cheers to you. Thanks for your constant encouragement in the form of "NGU"!

Pax Vobiscum.

[Samantha]

19. Politics corrupts

and so we eventually were corrupted. Many of us will go into rehab during the GE and will emerge a better poster. So I like to think ....

Sam

[Patsy Stone]

22. Not a bad theory

Maybe a group rate?

[Samantha]

27. Probably not -- because the group will be SO large

under a discounted rate, the therapists would only net approximately $10 per half hour as opposed to $150 ....

[Patsy Stone]

31. Well

then our last hope is health care reform -- and lots and lots of alcohol.

[texpatriot2004]

24. Hi Patsy, that DU is still here in those of us who have been with

DU for a long time; that DU is in all of us.

I remember that DU and I miss it too. I don't have the time to devote to DU that I used to have, or the energy either. I am still here with you though.

Hang in there, this too shall pass. Thanks for your post.

TP2004

[Patsy Stone]

28. Hi!

It's wonderful to see you. Thanks for your thoughtful post, and not so deep down, I know you're right. :hi:

[texpatriot2004]

43. Well, I appreciate your post because I have been feeling the

same way lately. I remember those funny posts from the DU oldtimers who had been around for awhile before I got here, you know, like the ones that started with a code or were like a group drama being collectively written. I remember one time when things were particularly troll ridden, there was some crazy post about drama...it was very melodramatic and funny.

I remember posts being much more substantive and people using sources most of the time in their posts. I know there are still some great members here because I read their input almost daily. Maybe it is just the primary season?

Anyway, it is nice to see you. I find it comforting when I run into DUers who have been around awhile. I was actually about ready to call it a night when I read your post and couldn't resist sharing your sentiment. I regret that I don't have the time to post like I once did...maybe not so much about time as energy. When I first became a member I was at home more, now I work full-time and well, you know...

I think it is a good idea to bring some good to the table here at DU when I don't see things going so well. What contribution can I make? How can I make it better? How can I honor the DU that I recall?

Well, that's about all I have for this evening. Thanks for your positive contribution. Sleep well.

[Patsy Stone]

66. Have a lovely night, tex

It really is nice to see you.

[texpatriot2004]

49. Hey thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. That is another

thing I noticed lately, that doesn't always happen these days. Have you noticed that? Someone will create a thread then never reply to the posts, or maybe I just don't post until people have moved on to other threads?

[merh]

29. I remember you.

:hi:

:pals: :hug:


oh, mustn't forget floaty hearts :loveya:

and K&R :kick:

thank you for posting your OP :hug:

[Patsy Stone]

30. I remember you too!

:)

:loveya:

Thanks, merh! How's the house?

[merh]

70. Hey ya

did I mention, great OP?


house life is wonderful, I wouldn't trade it for nothing, but have found my new roof is defective, needs to be replaced and am trying to get the right folks to do it before the season is upon us. :(

but hey, it will be okay - at least I have the house with the roof

:hugs: :loveya:

[EFerrari]

98. Oh, baby, that's so good to hear!

:woohoo:

[Patsy Stone]

110. Excellent

I'm happy to hear you're happy and mostly settled. :hug:

[texpatriot2004]

34. Hi Merh, it's nice to see you. Hope all is well with you and yours

glad to know you are still here too.

[merh]

71. it's good to see you, too

yep, I'm still around, just not as often as before - I mainly lurk.

,

[ClassWarrior]

38. Hail, hail, the gang's (almost) all here...

:loveya:

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

53. Where is the Rev Cheesehead? Ugnmoose? Um, who else?

HangaLeft? I know I see plenty of posts from KPETE (I am grateful for those) and SeemsLikeADream...oh my gosh, too many to mention by name.

[ClassWarrior]

57. My snot-nosed kid brother bleev...

Prolly stuck in a giant coffee cup or sumthin.

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

58. Bleever's the best...huh Wally? nm

[ClassWarrior]

62. Yeah, he's okay for a twerp.

:rofl:

NGU.

[bleever]

68. Open the pod bay doors, Wally! I mean it!

Dad is gonna clobber you.

Gee...hey Wally? I suddenly got a strange feeling, like I was created in the computer science laboratory in Urbana, Illinois...

Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do...


(Eddie Haskell never shoulda smacked that bone against the creepy monolith-thingie.)

[ClassWarrior]

69. You and Larry Mondello get into Eddie's wacky tabacky again, bleev?

:toast:

Good to see you kiddo. This thread is giving me flashbacks. Maybe I've been in Eddie's stash.

:rofl:

NGU.

[bleever]

109. Actually it was Lumpy Rutherford.

He said it was just pencil shavings, and I only tried it onaccounta I didn't want the other guys to think I was chicken or something.

:hi: bro!

We haven't given up, and we just may survive this presidency! Thanks for being part of the inspiration.

NGU.

[merh]

73. I hope he shows up

bleever is my most favorite believer :)

[bleever]

97. Mine too!

:)

Hi, merh! Glad to hear the house is together.

(((((:grouphug:)))))

[merh]

112. where ya been bleev?

:pals:

its so good to see ya :hug:

NGU :loveya:

[bleever]

115. Out on my deck

which I was rebuilding while I listened to the radio reports about Katrina.

And I'm here every day, not giving up!

And I believe I'll never forget your ripples thread.

:hug: :loveya:

[merh]

119. I believe in the power of waves

that's why I built 10 feet up :rofl:



:hide:



But more importantly, I believe how each of us have the power to bring about the waves of change and hope, that our pebbles matter. Your believing has helped me keep believing when I need the help. thank you :hug:


I was on my deck this morning - it is truly a wonderful place to sit and watch the sunrise - the dolphins were feeding the bay too :)

:hug: :loveya:

NGU

[merh]

72. we need a good DUDQ thread

there is plenty of material in this forum to write the script. :rofl:

NGU :loveya:

[SharonRB]

123. Hey, merh!

I came upon this thread late -- hope things are going well for you.

[EFerrari]

33. We're still here. It's just that a LOT of people crashed the party.

We'll still be here. :)

[Patsy Stone]

36. We're running out of ice

Help! :)

[EFerrari]

39. Okay!

[Patsy Stone]

40. LOL

Perfect! :toast:

[texpatriot2004]

55. Rat bastard party crashers.

:evilgrin:

Nice to see you sfexpat2000. How is Kit?

[EFerrari]

65. Waiting on me to take her out.

:hi:

[texpatriot2004]

67. Ya'll have fun.

:hi:

[SoCalDem]

126. That's the truth.. we oldtimers will be here 'til the very end

because once this is over, and we have patched up the wounds & wadded up the bloody bandaids, the ones who were not "sleeper-trolls" will hang around.. some who have more hurt feelings than most, may leave for a while, but most will return..

[bigbrother05]

37. A lot of us remember, but have decided this is the "last chance" for sanity

With the specter of Corporatism (aka Fascism) hanging over our nation, all sentient Dems are committed in this primary. The unfortunate thing is with the emergence of two "historical" candidates, the stakes are exponentially higher. Not only are we trying to turn back the RW onslaught on our democracy, we are choosing a candidate that will test the very soul of our society and reveal either the truth or hypocrisy of the American dream.

While I support Obama (my guy, Edwards, is out of the picture), it is still clear that either candidate is a vast improvement over W and his buddy McCain. Can't claim to be totally above the fray in these weeks of family squabbles, just wish we could all take a deep breath (or two) before firing off that oh-so-witty/cute/snarky reply when defending/supporting our chosen candidate.

Hope we come to our senses by convention time.

[pingzing58]

41. It's the natural process for older people to realize that their time has come and it's time to

retire and hand the reins over to a younger and more adept DU'ers to lead the discussion into a new administration. Don't you think? I'm surprised at how many DU'ers lament the fact that the DU has changed. It's natural and bound to happen. Sorry about that.

[Patsy Stone]

44. Very wrong

The Constitution; treating others with common decency and respect; seeking out the truth and not blindly believing what the government tells us; and well-founded arguments based in fact, are timeless.

[pingzing58]

61. Yup, rage against the dying of the light. But it's inevitable. Accept your destiny.

[Patsy Stone]

63. Brilliant

You stay classy.

[Adelante]

82. Well-founded arguments based in fact, are timeless

That snip, Patsy, is at the heart of the problem at today's DU. Just what's missing. Few take the trouble to argue - bless those who will - instead it's attack attack attack. And well-founded? I could cry at how a well-sprinkled lie has become stronger than the truth in so short a time. At the very least of it, consider the condition of DU archives after this season. Ugh. The responsible community hasn't been able to keep up with challenging lies with truth, there is just so much damned dreck peddled.

Anyways - to a DU back to itself in a few short months :toast:

[Dinger]

74. So, I'm 47 And Not Needed Here? Thanks. DU Logan's Run? (nt)

[Patsy Stone]

80. Apparently, Carousel has begun...

That post was brought to you by the "Part of the Problem" contingent.

I have to go change my Depends now. :eyes:

[Dinger]

87. Off To The Glue Factory I Go! (nt)

[Seabiscuit]

89. Ugh! Please don't speak those unmentionable words ("glue factory").

I'm a g-d horse, g-d-it.

[Kukesa]

91. I'm 65 -- where's that rockin' chair? n/t

[Dinger]

95. Like George Jones Says: "I Don't Need No Rocking Chair" (nt)

[JoFerret]

124. "our time" excludes those over 25?

That's lovely.

Intergenerational equity can be achieved. Generational hostility is a path for disaster.

[bhikkhu]

42. I remember the dark days...and don't forget Dean

we talked about all that was wrong here for some time, but it was always like the "underground", one couldn't say many things openly on the outside. Dean was a sea change - not just a media voice, but a serious politician who showed the cojones to stand up and say to the country that things were seriously wrong...Gore too, but Dean was so incisive and eloquent. Whatever else anyone says about him, I remember that.

[Hutzpa]

45. .

Yup! spot on!

Once DU became famous it killed everything.....

I hate the damn attention we get these days....

:thumbsup:

[Colobo]

46. We will rally around Barack Obama very soon and all the madness will be over.

[JeffR]

48. Twice this week, Patsy, I've deleted a bunch of really nasty things

I've said to two posters, though I maintain my suspicions about both. But I deleted what I wrote because my late parents worked hard to raise me to be better than this.

I'm fuckin' sick of the whole goddamn primary season, though, and I don't think it would offend my parents to hear me say that, at least.

Good post. And yes, I remember. That's why I came here.

[EFerrari]

50. Obama is wasting his time in politics. He could have made brazilions in modeling.

What a great photograph.

[ClassWarrior]

52. But do the brazillions want to be made?

:evilgrin:

NGU.

[texpatriot2004]

56. But of course...it's fun to be made eh.

:evilgrin:

[JeffR]

59. Found it on a Google image search

I think it's from Men's Vogue.

[Patsy Stone]

51. It took four years

before I found the Ignore button. I put put people on, and soon take them off again while I try and convince myself I'm stronger than that. It's a new little dance I do.

How many people have been born and died during this interminable election, do you suppose?

Thanks for being you!

[JeffR]

60. I alwasy thought Ignore was a silly feature.

This election year has proved me dead wrong.

Thanks for being you, too, while we're on the subject of thanks!

[Cooley Hurd]

54. You have much more self-contol than I do, Jeff...

Some people are just SOOOOOOOOOOOOO outrageous that I cannot, even with my SO scolding me, hold my tongue.

I salute you!:patriot::D

[JeffR]

64. If I had real self-control, I wouldn't have to delete a bunch of things I posted.

I have a feeling the ghosts of my parents are not pleased with me. By the same token, they're probably not at all pleased with DU generally, good liberals that they were. But thanks for your kind words.

[blogslut]

78. Things will be better

Just not now. Now, we are in flux. After the flux comes the settling. You'll see.

In the meantime, here's a little something to tide you over:

[Patsy Stone]

83. Aw, you...

You know the way to my heart.

:toast:, and thanks!

[myrna minx]

81. Hey Patsy, you're not alone.

WHile we DUer's have always found ways to flame each other, whether it be about how to bread chicken, the Nader wars at DU's inception, and how can we forget the Dean scream, but I think we've crossed a line that I haven't seen before as illustrated by your post. I just hope that something good can come of all of this. While I must admit, I'm exhausted, I do know that I have taken Obama's Perfect Union speech to heart. I
have watched it twice and ruminated about it and I believe that it shifted my heart in a new direction. While the impetus for Obama *having* to give the speech in the first place demonstrates the laziness of the press corps. for not doing their homework, but Obama seized the opportunity to make a difference, to speak to the American People on a deeper level, unheard of for nearly 40 years. I can't tell you how profoundly refreshing it was to have a leader speak to be as if I was an intellectually curious person, capable of compassion and empathy, unlike the patronizing, repetitive, orwellian mantras lobbed on us from this current administration. Now there is outrage about the outrage, but I hope this is just the death rattle of the old, patronizing institution. The bar has been raised for American discourse, I just hope we, as Americans come to expect this level of discourse as the norm.

[WolverineDG]

84. I remember! I remember!

If I clap my hands hard enough, maybe the real DU will come back to life? :applause:

But, yeah, I hear ya. I mean, :wtf: an *OLBERMANN WATCH* vid gets on the DU Homepage? Are you freakin' kidding me? :eyes: I have to keep checking that I'm on DU, not FR or OW sometimes.

:hug: This too shall pass, & if it doesn't, well, always remember:


dg

[Patsy Stone]

88. I know you!

It seems like years, but it's been only months. And you're right: Karma is a bitch (or so I've heard).

:loveya:

[LWolf]

85. I remember when there were more left-leaning democrats

than "centrists," conservative democrats, status quo democrats, and "3rd way" democrats on the board.

I found it a place with more hope and determination then.

[Hepburn]

86. Next month, it will be 4 years that I have been a member of the DU.

At first, I did not post much ~~ DU was actually kind of intimidating to me. So many people and so much knowledge. Then I realized that DU was one of the greatest resources going...if I needed info, someone on the DU was sure to have it. After that, I started posting more and seeing some people who I knew and whose posts I really liked.

I hope it goes back to being the comfortable friendly place it used to be just a few months ago. The hatred and the nastiness is really disappointing.

:hi:

[Mabus]

92. I remember the discussions

People who would talk to each other. Often, people would dig in their heels but at least you got to read the different shades of various issues that actually mattered.

I also remember when I would get most of my news that was worth hearing here. Now, when I open most posts, I get a lot of meaningless vitriol and not a lot of substance. Responses to threads have become contests of who can be snarkier or nastier rather.

Oh well. I guess we'll all have to ride out another GE and hope that things become reasonable again after the election. This will be the second presidential GE for me and this one is worse than the last.

[Botany]

93. The DU I remember is when the EDVs of the KOEB ran free

eating lasagna and dranking ice tea.



Yes, my Florida friend we have become a home to
mouth breathing low post # trolls and professional
disrupters who put bullshit on toast and expect us
to eat it as "Country Style Apple Butter." Just remember
you will always be my "Fav," please don't tell the others.
Those Wisconsin & Texas EDVs = :scared:

[IsItJustMe]

94. A few rotten apples can sure make the world seem upside down. But it isn't, and I do believe they

will go away once Obama is nominated. They will eventually get tired of their own dysfunctional behavior when people quit paying attention to their tantrums.

[ronnykmarshall]

96. I remember when ...

You couldn't to hold me
Used to hate to leave me
Now after loving me late at niiiigggght

You don't bring me flowers
Any moooooore!

[EFerrari]

99. I have the Streisand - Diamond duet.

But I can't play it because it makes me cry.

lol

[ronnykmarshall]

120. Oh baby!!!

:loveya:

[hfojvt]

103. "What's too painful to remember, we simply choose to forget."

I remember alot of nasty and passionate arguments. I made a little collection of the worst replies I got.

You are the one with the blinders on, and your gross generalizations of the attitudes of black people is disgusting. That is all. 09-11-05

I really can't believe you said that.
You just don't get it do you? Apr. 23 2005

I don't think you have a clue
And you sound like you've never worked in a bar either. 4-23-05

That's breathtakingly stupid 4-23-05

Why use english when you can use German like a good little Nazi? 11-25-04

Shut the fuck up. You have no clue about living in poverty. I'm done. 12-29-04

Really, you people are just full of it. 12-29-04


They are still in the archives too. Heck, you or the majority of DU might agree with the assessments if you went back and read the threads. Maybe I was breathtakingly stupid or had blinders on. I would prefer, however, to have people explain why they think so rather than just hurl the insults. Trouble is, they often think so because they give the worst possible interpretation to one small part of a post.

Of course, that is my own experience as a Christian straight white male who is perhaps not liberal enough for the DU even though I am a precinct person and manage my county party's website.

But DU itself has had massive flame wars about Tookie, smoking, SUVs, guns, Leopold, immigration, Israel, and so on as various issues have been in the news. There have been a few threads in GD titles "Is there anything that all of DU agrees on?"

Then after our victory in 2006 it became fashionable to bash Pelosi and Reid. To the point where I posted this in protest:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/51

So, in my memory DU has always been a rough and tumble passionate place. It never was a peaceful, united, garden of Liberal Eden.

[EFerrari]

105. The first time I read DU before registering, it scared me to death.

Then, I started posting. :rofl:

[Patsy Stone]

117. I never felt hate towards other DUers here

I've felt this was a passionate place, filled with disagreement, but hatred is something else.

[rug]

106. Gloating became a political virtue.

[ClassWarrior]

107. I remember that SNL skit...

...just after the Senate voted down RW Coup inspired articles of impeachment against the Big Dog. "Who, ussss?? Gloaaatinggg??..." Hysterical.

NGU.

[Swamp Rat]

108. Infestation

[Blue-Jay]

111. I remember when DU was suspicious of the DLC...

good times... good times....

[QC]

113. And then people confused a candidate with the messiah,

and things went to hell in a bucket.

[ClassWarrior]

114. I wish they would tell her that she can't win.

NGU.

[Kurovski]

121. Who are you, and where did you come from?

:hug:

Triangulation-strangulation has gripped DU. Or is it the "third way"?

[SharonRB]

122. No, I remember that place

and now it seems it only exists in the KOEB -- Countdown group. It's the one place on DU where we still respect each other and all get along.

Maybe once we have a candidate we can get back to that place we remember, but I have my doubts.