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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:04 PM
Original message
John Kerry On Gays
In the beginning there were eight candidates seeking the Democratic nomination for president and three of them were more pro-gay than John Kerry, who is opposed to same-sex marriage. Now it is a given that Kerry will win the Democratic nomination in July in Boston. Where does he stand on gay issues?

* The federal Employment Non-Discrimination Act: "In 1985 ... I became the original sponsor and author of the gay civil-rights legislation in the United States Senate -- before Ellen DeGeneres, before Will & Grace, before anyone knew who Melissa Etheridge was, before there'd been a march on Washington, when it was radioactive. ... I have cosponsored ENDA and voted for it when it came before the Senate in 1996. I have also adopted a nondiscrimination policy for my congressional offices so that sexual orientation is not a factor in employment decisions."

* Inclusion of transgender people in ENDA: "I oppose discrimination of all kinds and my office policy prohibits discrimination in the workplace based on gender identity and expression. I believe that we should focus efforts on getting ENDA passed and signed into law, and I am concerned that adding gender identity and expression to the ENDA legislation is likely to significantly hinder that effort."

<snip>

* Is being gay a choice?: "I think it's entirely who you are from birth, personally. Some people might choose, but I think that it's who you are. I think people need to be able to be who they are. I have a friend who was married for many years and then the marriage dissolved and he came out and he announced that he was gay, and he lived this life of tension, and of great difficulty. And I don't think that's a kind of choice. I think that's being who you are. It's in your system. It's in your genes. ... I think that people have a right in America to be who they are, who they are born as, and we are all God's children, and that is my view."
MORE: http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/05/050604kerryGays.htm
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malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry is my man!
As a gay man, that's all I want to hear:

"I think that's being who you are. It's in your system. It's in your genes"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not including the transgendered under ENDA is the height of ignorance
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:27 PM by IndianaGreen
For your information, the transgendered is not just people that "change sex," it also includes people that were born intersexed and their sex was arbitrarily reassigned when they were babies. There is a lot of scientific literature, as well as a lot of anecdotal evidence, that such callous and arbitrary sex reassignment at such an early age causes long-term harm on the intersexed.

PM Zapatero supports gay marriage (and he already withdrew Spain's troops from Iraq). Why can't Kerry be like Zapatero?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. oops I misread
Edited on Thu May-06-04 06:32 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
self delete
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ACK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. You mean why can't Kerry be more like a Spanish Socialist?
That would go over like a lead ballon in a nation where the media is bought and paid for by the corporations man.

He is more liberal than Clinton, Lieberbush or the way they ran Gore last time.

Little steps.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We are talking about human rights in here!
We are already seeing the sort of mess that "little steps" has gotten us into in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. I notice you didn't include any of the six statements
on same sex marriage. Kerry has set himself up with his endorsment of that admendment. In Ohio, Kentucky, Oklahoma, and a few other states there will be superficially similar amendments to the one in MA. But they are likely to be much worse. Ohio's would ban any government entity from offering any benefits at all to same sex couples. Now Kerry will have to take a position on all of these amendments something he could have avoided by simply saying that amending constitutions over this is dumb.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Have you heard of something called 'copyright'?
I would have loved to post the whole thing, information is power, but the rules say four paragraphs max, so I took the first three paragraphs, and the last. But thanks to the magic of the world wide web, anyone who is truly interested in the topic can click the link and get the whole story.
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Gay marriage
Edited on Fri May-07-04 02:44 PM by DaveSZ
Gay marriage will not be made legal by Kerry, nor the legislative branch.

But I can guarantee you that if Bush appoints a couple more nuts on that court, there will be no such thing as "gay rights."

As it stands now, Scalia says he doesn't know how the court would rule on gay marriage.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. and we believe Scalia because he is a pillar of honesty
Anyone can tell you how they will rule on gay marriage, they will reject it out of hand. Maybe some appointments from Kerry would help in that regard (assuming replacements of Renquist or O'Connor) and maybe they wouldn't. But my central problem with Kerry's position is as much political as it is positional. I can't see him offering a coherent reason for his position that the microscopic number of people who haven't made up their minds on this are going to buy. If he was going to go down this road he should have at least made himself more politically viable while doing so.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. So your objection to Kerry's position is based on what you imagine
are his motives? You object to Kerry's position because you assume it is a case of flawed pandering? :wtf:


Maybe you should make your judgements based on reality instead of what's in your imagination.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I don't give a damn about his motives
It is his position that sucks. There was a perfectly decent position that avoided the merits of the gay marriage issue, that being the sanctity of constitutions. But thanks to him deciding MA's constitution is not sacred in every single state in which there is an amendment on the ballot he is going to have to take a position. Most of these are vastly worse from the gay point of view than MA is. If he supports those he will piss off gays, if he doesn't he will piss of social conservatives, and he took out the only reasonable third way.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Every statement you've made is based on the false assumption
that Kerry's position is not principled, on the assumption that he should just change his position based on whatever is the most politically expedient.


Did you ever consider the possibility that Kerry is actually saying what he thinks? That it doesn't matter to him what the most politically expedient thing is, what matters to him is what he thinks is right? Have you considered that possibility?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't care
Edited on Fri May-07-04 06:50 PM by dsc
I honestly don't know how else to put it. Now is not the time for some sort of bizarre principled position. You are never going to convince me that is some huge matter of principle for him given that he chose to avoid the consequences of his religion's position about second marriages and thus I honestly don't think he cares all that much what his religion says about marriage. But even if this is some huge matter of principle, I don't care. If my prinicples don't matter why should his? I am being asked to accept a man who baldly tells me I am a second class citizen and that all my (figurative) proginey should be too. I dont' think it is too much to ask that he atleast take the most politically viable position if he isn't going to take the right one. On edit If this were such a matter of principle why did he let months go by before he endorsed the amendment in question?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why can't you stick to the truth?
"I am being asked to accept a man who baldly tells me I am a second class citizen "


That's not true, is it?

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. what do you call someone who can't get married?
It isn't like we make marriage licences hard to get. Erik Menendez got one. While the kind of second class citizenship I would have under Kerry would be significantly better than that under Bush, it still would be second class citizenship it is as simple as that.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Before I answer that, please answer my question.
Edited on Fri May-07-04 07:06 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
I am being asked to accept a man who baldly tells me I am a second class citizen "


That's not true, is it? Has John Kerry or has he not baldly told you - or anyone - they are a second-class citizen.


Is it true, or is it a lie?


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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. He supports an amendment saying I can't ever get married
His actions baldly state that I am a second class citizen. Is that better?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. So what you are saying is that you weren't making a truthful statement.
Edited on Fri May-07-04 07:17 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Why not? Why not stick to truthful statements? Wouldn't it make debate a lot easier -- we wouldn't have to constantly be sidetracked by having to point out your falsehoods -- wouldn't that make for a better discussion?



By the way, why is it that when you supported Dean for the nomination, the fact that he was just as opposed to gay marriage as Kerry didn't bother you?

Why the double standard?



He supports an amendment saying I can't ever get married

Is that true? Or is it a lie? Does Kerry really support an amendment to the Ohio (I seem to remember you are from Ohio, but I could be wrong. I know for a fact you aren't from Mass.) constitution saying you can't get married? (link please) I know for a fact he is opposed to a Federal amendment that would do that.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. actually actions speak louder than words
so I stand behind the idea that he is baldly stating that gays are second class citizens by his actions.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. So you repeat your false statement even after it's been shown to be false?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. No
Edited on Fri May-07-04 07:19 PM by dsc
His actions baldly state I am a second class citizen. It is about as true as it gets. Don't believe me try this on for size. Completely ignore your mom this Sunday, don't send her a card, don't call her, don't give her a gift. Then on Monday call her and tell her you love her without mentioning Mothers' Day. What message do you think she will hear?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Will you answer my questions? or keep ignoring them?

By the way, why is it that when you supported Dean for the nomination, the fact that he was just as opposed to gay marriage as Kerry didn't bother you?

Why the double standard?



"He supports an amendment saying I can't ever get married"

Is that true? Or is it a lie? Does Kerry really support an amendment to the Ohio (I seem to remember you are from Ohio, but I could be wrong. I know for a fact you aren't from Mass.) constitution saying you can't get married? (link please) I know for a fact he is opposed to a Federal amendment that would do that.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It did
but the only three candidates who favored it were unelectable. His position was the best of the electable canddates. He also had the ability to use the constitutions are sacred arguement. I have more problems with Kerry's position for two reasons. One, it is worse due to his support of the amendment, something Dean rejected out of hand. Two it is politically less viable than Dean's. So I get the worst of both worlds.

And the last part of your post is just too assine for words.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. You still haven't explained your falsehoods
Why is the exact position perfectly acceptable from Dean, but from Kerry it means he "baldly tells me I am a second class citizen "

What total hypocrisy. :puke:


"He supports an amendment saying I can't ever get married"


Is that true? Or is it a lie? Does Kerry really support an amendment to the Ohio (I seem to remember you are from Ohio, but I could be wrong. I know for a fact you aren't from Mass.) constitution saying you can't get married? (link please) I know for a fact he is opposed to a Federal amendment that would do that.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-08-04 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. that is too assine for words
The fact is for all you or he or for that matter I may know I might end up in MA someday. Taking my right to marry away in a place I don't live is still taking my right away. It is assine to suggest it isn't.
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