The Obama Strategy: Victory By Voter Suppression

[McCamy Taylor]

“…while one-half of the people of the United States are robbed of their inherent right of personal representation in this freest country on the face of the globe, it is idle for us to expect that the men who thus rob women will not rob each other as individuals, corporations and Government.” Susan B. Anthony

The mainstream media has told us time and again about Hillary’s secret diabolical strategy to steal the Democratic nomination, but no one talks about the Obama campaign’s plan to win that same nomination without actually having to complete the whole primary—with all the risks that entails. Here it is---the secret plan that all Obama supporter know but will not admit, just as all Republicans know that voter ID laws are about keeping minorities and the poor(both likely Democrats) from the polls.

The Obama strategy to win the nomination through voter suppression is very simple. If there are not enough delegates in play for a candidate to get the required 2024 to win, then she can not win except with Superdelegate help---which Obama has declared undemocratic. During this window of opportunity, Obama has a lead over Hillary in both delegates and total votes. It is not overwhelming, though many Obama supporters like to exaggerate and claim that it is. Here are the numbers.

From CNN, Obama has 1621 total delegates ( 1413 pledged and 208 super) and Hillary has 1479 (1242 and 237). There are currently 566 delegates remaining to be cast in the remaining states and 360 Superdelegates. That is 926 total, enough to put Obama over the top if he does well, but probably not Hillary---as long as Obama can keep the voters of Florida and Michigan disenfranchised. That is why Obama is trying so hard to keep the Democrats from those states from having a say in this primary.

The Obama strategy is actually quite brilliant. Claim that he has a mandate because for the moment he is ahead in delegates and votes. Never mind that someone else could have made the same claim at some other point in time. He can argue that this moment is all important for any one of a million reasons. Because so and so in the press says it is. Because the Republicans have a nominee (never mind that McCain has reached his spending limit). A whole bunch of Obama supporters have decided that we can not wait until Denver (or the Pennsylvania primary). Hillary must drop out now! For the good of the party, of course.

Claim there is no way that Hillary can ever get 2024 delegates. Do not explain exactly why Hillary can not get 2024 votes. But work like mad to prevent voting in Michigan and Florida. At all costs, the Obama camp must keep those 367 delegates out of play. Michigan and Florida will become pariah within the party. They broke the rules. They must be punished. Never mind that the people themselves are innocent. Never mind that the states electoral votes will be needed for a Democratic victory in the fall. Anyone who talks of strategic considerations like that is self serving (as Keith Olbermann and Chuck Todd agreed on Countdown on 3-19 when they distorted this article about Hillary from the WaPo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101100859.html

Clinton's comment reflects an optimism she will win her party's nomination to face the Republican nominee in November 2008. She said any snub to Michigan could hurt her _ and all Democrats' _ chances to defeat the Republicans there.

Snip

"I did not believe it was fair to just say, 'Goodbye Michigan' and not take into account the fact we're going to have to win Michigan if we're going to be in the White House in January 2009," she said.

Forget and cover up the fact that Obama, Edwards, Richardson and Biden dropped off the Michigan ballot as one in October in order to curry favor with Iowan voters, who were incensed at Michigan for stealing their thunder, and also to hurt Hillary by leaving her alone on the ballot which would make her beauty contest win in the state less of a triumph while hurting her in the Iowan primary.

Here is Crooksandliars with video of Chuck Todd and David Schuster discussing the less than altruistic reasons why Obama dropped from the Michigan ballot

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/09/obama-edwards-richardson-pull-out-of-michigan-primary

And then there is this:

http://iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1264

Iowans are by and large straightforward people. Given that, it should come as no surprise that to the average Iowan, the Michigan ballot situation seems pretty cut and dried: Democratic presidential hopefuls who honor their four-state pledge and support the nomination calendar won't be on the Wolverine State's ballot. As with most things in life, and especially politics, the situation is more complicated.
Five individuals connected to five different campaigns have confirmed -- but only under condition of anonymity -- that the situation that developed in connection with the Michigan ballot is not at all as it appears on the surface. The campaign for Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, arguably fearing a poor showing in Michigan, reached out to the others with a desire of leaving New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton as the only candidate on the ballot. The hope was that such a move would provide one more political obstacle for the Clinton campaign to overcome in Iowa.

No, the official Obama campaign line must be that Hillary broke some promise that she made not to “participate” in Michigan.

Funny. I have repeatedly challenged Obama supporters at DU to supply a link or proof that there was some agreement that the candidates not be on the ballot in Michigan. So far, no one has been able to do it. All I get are repetitions of “Hillary said she would not participate” like one of those dolls that repeats a chosen phrase when you pull a string.

Here is what the WaPo link above says that the candidates agreed to do. I do not notice any retractions or corrections:

The Democratic presidential candidates already had pledged not to campaign in Michigan because the state had broken Democratic National Committee rules by scheduling its primary ahead of Feb. 5. The rules ban states from holding their 2008 contests before Feb. 5, except Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina.

The candidates are allowed to visit Michigan to raise money and can send their spouses to campaign, but they can't run advertisements, hold rallies or do most of the other things that would help give them a leg up on their opponents.

I think I know where this misconception about “participate” started. We see the Obama camp attempt to lay the groundwork for this myth (which is now one of two that Obama supporters use in place of rational arguments) immediately after the Michigan primary

http://video1.washingtontimes.com/bellantoni/2008/01/clinton_wins_michigan.html

TO: Interested Parties
FR: The Obama Campaign
RE: Michigan Democratic Presidential Primary

Because Michigan violated DNC rules by placing its Presidential Primary on January15th, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee ruled that the Michigan Democratic Party could not use the results of the January 15 Presidential Primary to allocate delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention. In other words, no delegates are at stake today in the Michigan Democratic Primary.

All of the Democratic presidential candidates publicly pledged not to campaign in Michigan, none have visited the state, opened offices, hired staff or communicated with voters through television, mail, phones or otherwise. In addition, four Democratic presidential candidates, Obama, Edwards, Richardson and Biden withdrew their names from the Primary ballot in order to avoid participating in the Michigan Primary. Clinton did not withdraw her name even though she publicly committed to not participate in the Primary. Clinton, Dodd, Gravel and Kucinich are the only candidates on the ballot today. The Obama Campaign is not participating in the Primary and has not instructed supporters in Michigan whether or how to vote.

Therefore the results of the primary tonight have no bearing on the Democratic nomination contest.

Florida, whose primary was scheduled for January 29th, is just like Michigan — the DNC applied full sanctions for setting an early primary date and there are no delegates are at stake. As with Michigan, all of the Democratic presidential candidates signed a pledge to not campaign in Florida. Although Senator Obama did not remove his name from the Florida Primary ballot because Florida law did not allow him to do so, Senator Obama is firm in his commitment to neither participate nor campaign in the Florida Primary and its outcome has no bearing on the nomination contest. We raise Florida today because Senator Clinton has scheduled a fundraiser in Florida on Jan. 27th, and there are signs — despite Senator Clinton's public pledge to the contrary — that she may be planning to campaign in the state — inquiring about large venues and increased organizing activity — ahead of the Florida primary.

Our position and the position of the DNC is clear — neither the Florida nor Michigan primaries are playing any role in deciding the Democratic nominee and we are not campaigning in either state.

The Clinton camp issued this response:

To: Interested Parties
From: The Clinton Campaign
Regarding: Michigan and Florida Presidential Primaries

The Obama campaign today circulated a memo regarding today's Michigan primary and the January 29 Florida primary. This memo was concerning on several levels.

Let us be very clear. Senator Clinton signed a pledge that she would not campaign in any state that violates the DNC approved calendar. Therefore, we did not campaign in Michigan, nor will we campaign in Florida in violation of the pledge. We have two small scheduled fundraisers in South Florida on January 27, as explicitly permitted by the pledge, but we will not hold any open public campaign events. The Obama campaign has also held numerous fundraisers in Florida since signing the pledge. Contrary to the Obama campaign's memo, there are no events at large venues, nor have we organized in the state. We intend to do so as our party's nominee in the general election, but will honor our pledge not to campaign there in violation of the pledge.

Let us be clear about something else, however. While Senator Clinton will honor her commitment not to campaign in Florida in violation of the pledge, she also intends to honor her pledge to hear the voices of all Americans. The people of Michigan and Florida have just as much of a right to have their voices heard as anyone else. It is disappointing to hear a major Democratic presidential candidate tell the voters of ANY state that their voices aren't important.

Make no mistake — the Obama campaign had no problems when its supporters and allies in Michigan ran radio ads and other campaign activities urging people to vote for "uncommitted" as a way to register their support for Senator Obama — and to give him a chance to compete for those delegates at the national convention. Now, with polls in recent days showing that effort and their candidate running far behind in both states, the Obama campaign has shifted tactics to say that those who cast a vote in either state don't matter. We couldn't disagree more.

Senator Clinton intends to be President for all fifty states. And while she will honor the pledge she signed and not campaign in either state, she intends to continue to give every American a voice during this election and when she gets to the White House.

Important points to note. Obama sent out a press release claiming that he and the others were not on the ballot in Michigan because of a verbal agreement not to participate. Hillary’s campaign disputes this, referring to the signed pledge as the only agreement. In a case where a pledge has been signed, most people would assume that it is the binding agreement since words spoken aloud and spontaneously are notoriously imprecise and open to misinterpretation (sometimes deliberate). Hillary writes that the pledge she made was "to hear the voices of all Americans". It is going to be mighty difficult for any Obama supporters to say that she did not make such a pledge, especially when she was quoted in the WaPo giving an excellent reason why the Democrats should listen.

Hillary’s campaign also catches the Obama campaign in several distortions, notably that he did not campaign in Michigan or fundraise in Florida and also accuses him of spreading unfounded rumors that she is planning to cheat in Florida. This is not the first time that Obama has publicly accused her of planning to cheat. During campaigning in Iowa, a state notorious for its hatred of dirty tricks, Obama repeated Bob Novak’s unsupported allegations that Hillary was collecting dirt on her opponent, a dirty trick of his own that probably hurt her with Iowa voters.

Note the date, Jan. 15, 2008. Some Obama supporters have claimed that Hillary took no interest in Michigan or Florida until she was behind. However, this was immediately after New Hampshire, when she was still the front runner. Her position is consistent with her statement in October, 2007. She says that it is important that all Democrats be given a chance to vote.

Now refer back to the Washington Post article linked above. The reason KO and Chuck Todd looked this one up is it contains a famous line that the Obama folks gave the Drudge treatment. You know—take a single line out of context and claim that its sums up everything that a person believes. Drudge did it to Hillary with her 60 Minutes interview and a bunch of Obama supporters (including KO) were dutifully impressed at Matt Drudge’s ingenuity. So, they are doing it too. Here is the line that was quoted to me at least five times in a thread as if this gem contained the wisdom of the universe. One especially clever Obama fan said “That says it all.” Another said “End of debate.” The Official All Purpose Michigan Snappy Come Back.

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Hillary.

Since context counts, please read the entire Washington Post article—something KO did not do on Countdown. In the rest of the article, she goes on to say that she stayed on the ballot so Michigan voters would not be offended and so that the eventual Democratic nominee would have less risk of losing the state in the fall.

Now, what did Hillary not say? She did not say that Michigan the state did not count. She did not say that they wouldnever count. She did not say that the voters were guilty of a crime and deserved to be punished. She did not say that Democrats could win the November election without them. She did not reject the state the way that KO wanted her to reject Ferraro. She did not say that the Democratic Party would not have to come to some agreement in the future---that a truce of some kind would not have to be forged in order to regain the trust of Michigan voters whom the Party needs for a general election win. All she really said was that there would be no automatic seating of the delegates from that early election.

And there has been no automatic seating of the delegates from that early election. The fate of the Democratic voters of the state of Michigan—their ability to participate in the primary nomination process which is an important part in the democratic process--- is still in the hands of the Obama camp which would prefer to keep Michigan’s delegates out of play, even though the latest polls show that he and Hillary are neck and neck.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/michigan/michigan_2008_presidential_election

Michigan is in the midst of a controversy concerning the seating of its delegates to the Democratic National Convention. Michigan Democrats favor a re-vote and a Rasmussen Reports telephone survey found that a do-over Primary would currently result in a tie between Clinton and Obama.

If you consider this poll and the rising anger and resentment of the voters of the state of Michigan towards the Democratic Party, Obama’s opposition by silence towards a re-do of the primary makes no sense. If the primary were held again, it would not change the difference between his delegate count and Hillary’s. He would still be ahead. And the eventual winner would have won the favor of the voters of Michigan. The only way a re-do of Michigan could hurt him is by inching Hillary’s delegate count up enough that her total might become high enough that she too could reach the magic 2024 without Superdelegates.

Is keeping the total pool of delegates artificially low sufficient justification for voter suppression within the Democratic primary?

The exact same thing goes for Florida, except that their case is even more unfortunate, since it was the Republicans who forced the early primary. And Obama’s name was actually on that ballot. However, you will still read posters at DU talk about the possibility that Democrats in Florida might get a chance to vote in a new election as being the same kind of election fraud as that which Jeb Bush perpetrated in 2000 when he drew up a phony felons list that kept Blacks from voting. Florida is maligned, even though the state of Florida could be critical to a Democratic victory this fall . Again, if Obama campaigns in Florida, he will not lose to Hillary by 17 points. The state will be much more like Texas. He might lose by a few points but it won’t take away his lead. What it will do is add enough delegates back to the total voting pool that Hillary will now be within reach of the 2024 delegates if the Democratic primary plays out to a fair conclusion. Or she might not. It depends upon the will of the voters.

For some reason, Obama does not want to leave it in the hands of the voters. Like a certain notorious Republican election manipulator, he would like to have The Math stacked in his favor, even if it means slapping two important electoral swing states in the face.

Now, consider what started this mess. No, it was not Hillary’s ambition. The reason why Hillary “can not win” is because two of the states which should have been in her column were excluded. For all we know, the RNC directed Florida to make its move in May 2007 for this very reason, in order to facilitate Karl Rove’s “Brokered Democratic Strategy” in which the Democratic nomination process becomes chaotic. Michigan followed Florida’s example. It could have been worse. More states could have done the same. As it is, we are in our current situation---Hillary unable to win by delegate count---only because the Republicans moved up Florida’s primary, which triggered Michigan to copy them.

And now, Obama wants to preserve this unnatural advantage that the Republicans have given him by making sure that the votes of the people in Michigan and Florida are never counted. This is not democracy. This is voter suppression.

What comes after the voter suppression, when it is impossible for Hillary to get 2024 delegates, because Obama has made sure that the pool is short a few hundred delegates? Create dissension within the ranks of the Democratic Party by having his own supporters begin accusing Hillary of being a “cheater” a “vote stealer” a “corrupt politician” who is somehow thwarting the Democratic process by trying to find a way to get the votes of the Democrats of Michigan and Florida counted. The MSM which regularly accuses Hillary of being every variety of witch-bitch can always be counted upon to join in on a good old fashioned Hillary bashing. Obama can point to his endorsement by such party insiders as Ted Kennedy and John Kerry as proof that he has been the equivalent of anointed as the next nominee but at the same time court the Party’s liberal left wing by claiming that Hillary is allied with the Party’s establishment which must be overthrown to achieve change. He can claim that it is crucial to heal the rift within the Party---which is largely due to the loud and angry accusations of his supporters---and that only Obama the unifier can do so.

The way I see it, the people of Michigan and Florida need to be placated if we are to have a chance of winning this fall's election. They will not be placated unless they get some say in this, the most important Dempcratic primary in 70 years . The Democratic primary must play out to its end, even if that means going to Denver without a declared winner. There are elected party leaders whose job description includes settling ties through votes and revotes and bargaining at the convention. There is a reason we send real live people and not just boxes full of ballots. It took FDR four ballots to get the nomination, but he got it, so please chill out. The rest of the country is watching us act like a bunch of crazy fools, and they are thinking If they can not run their party any better than that, can they run a country?

“A man without a vote is man without protection.” LBJ

:dem:

[David Dunham]

1. Obama is doing wrong to MI and FL

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

9. Hillary: "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything,"

Florida & Michigan: The hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton's position

by mecarr, Tue Mar 11, 2008

"It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said

Clinton said Thursday during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange."
"But I just personally did not want to set up a situation where the Republicans are going to be campaigning
between now and whenever, and then after the nomination, we have to go in and repair the damage to be
ready to win Michigan in 2008.

Nearly as hysterical as Hillary's position on Florida and Michigan is that of her top advisor, Harold Ickes.
As a member of the DNC, he voted to punish Florida and Michigan.
Recently he argued for seating the Florida and Michigan delegations.

...-At a breakfast sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor, the former Clinton White House aide and consultant
to Hillary Clinton’s campaign noted that as a member of the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, he voted last year
to strip the two states of their delegates as punishment for moving their primaries up too early on the calendar.

He said the move was designed "to prevent the gaming of the system."

Now that Senator Clinton has won those states, however, he supports seating the delegates.
"When I voted on the Rules and Bylaws Committee, I did that as a member of the Rules and Bylaws Committee,
not as a member of the Hillary Clinton campaign," he explained.

...

[McCamy Taylor]

27. ROFL

Did you even notice that your AllPurposeMichiganMantra that gets repeated at least 100 times a day around here by Obama supporters like you is in my journal in its original article in the Washington Post and that there is more, much more besides that one line and that context changes the meaning?

No, and I'll bet you think that when 60 Minutes asked Hillary if Obama is a Muslim she rolled her eyes coyly and dropped her voice and in a knowing whisper said "Not...as far as I know" with a wink and a nudge.

:rofl:

You Obama supporters crack me up. You know the movie Idiocracy the part where the cabinet gets paid every time they say "Brought to you by Carl's Jr." You guys remind me of that. Except I will bet that most of you are not getting paid.

[Life Long Dem]

30. Other than the advertisement in your ppost I see nothing. Obama already won. Do the math.

Even if you give Hillary MI and FL, she cannot win. :hurts:

[olkaz]

49. Why?

"You Obama supporters crack me up. You know the movie Idiocracy the part where the cabinet gets paid every time they say "Brought to you by Carl's Jr." You guys remind me of that. Except I will bet that most of you are not getting paid."

Lines like that don't lend much credence to your argument.

You realize we're in the same party, right?

[Yes We Did]

96. This is too much.

MI & FL knew better and should not have moved their primary dates up.

Plain and simple.

And in MI, nobody really give a shit. You don't see signs, it's not covered on the news and nobody is talking about it.

And as far as voter supression... talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

The only way hillary can win is by supressing the vote.

[ThatBozGuy]

38. Yeah damn Mr Obama for setting this up 3 years ago using 9 people from Ms Clintons campaign.

9 people integral to Ms Clinton campaign were on a committee, who designed ratified and implemented the DNC rules that stripped Florida and Michigan votes. That committee was by the created by the nomination of all of the members being nominated by Clinton campaign chair Terry McAuliffe. You should also note that Rep. Dingell and Senator Levin of Michigan were also on this committee.

In the summer of 2006 450 Democrats from across the country voted unanimously to accept the rules as defined by the Committee and with the final rules ratified in February of 2007.

Many of those same people, as well as other Clinton campaign members and surrogates were on the DNC committee that officially made the judgment that actively stripped these votes as punishment for breaking the DNC rules, including Ms Clintons top adviser Harold Ickes and Gereldine Ferraro ( by the way both of them were also involved in setting up the Super-delegates )

Ms Clinton reinforced the stripping of these votes by signing a pledge to the DNC to uphold the ruling "to not campaign or participate" in the primaries, and she following that in october 2007 speaking on NPR reiterated that Florida would not count do to the DNC ruling.

So for 3 years Ms Clinton, Her surrogates, Her Associates and a large number of people in her campaign stuck by the rules they designed and implemented, and even reinforced their power by voting to strip the votes and then...............


On January 26, 2008 Ms Clintons campaign's communications director Howard Wolfson changed all of that and threw the DNC out the window
with the a release on the day of the South Carolina primaries which contained the following excerpts:

Regardless of today’s outcome, the race quickly shifts to Florida, where hundreds of thousands of Democrats will turn out to vote on Tuesday.

Despite efforts by the Obama campaign to ignore Floridians, their voices will be heard loud and clear across the country, as the last state to vote before Super Tuesday on February 5th.

Coming off of victories in Nevada, Michigan and New Hampshire, Senator Clinton has demonstrated the importance of focusing on achieving real solutions on the economy, health care and Iraq

So just to be clear, Ms Clinton and members of Ms Clinton's campaign made the rules, Ms Clinton and members of Ms Clinton's campaign enforced the rules and Ms Clinton and members of Ms Clinton's campaign then threw the rules out the window when it was convenient.

Through out this Mr Obama has had ONE STANCE, He will follow the rules and recommendations of the DNC in order to get a fair DNC sanctioned vote for all people.

Make no mistake this is a trainwreck, but it is a trainwreck where the tracks were laid by Ms Clinton and her campaign members and the train and its cars are Mr Obama, the states of Florida and Michigan and the DNC and when this all falls into the abyss it will be because Ms Clinton and her campaign members pulled the bridge out from under the Democratic party.

[McCamy Taylor]

92. If Hillary wanted no votes and Obama wanted votes, why isn't he in the streets DEMANDING vote rights

for the citizens of Florida and Michigan? Why is Hillary now the one who has to champion the rights of these citizens to participate in the election?

Obama should be in the streets of Florida denouncing the Republican state legislature that will not give the Democrats of that state a chance to have their vote counted. Obama should be in Michigan demanding that the Democrats of that state have a chance to have their vote counted. If you really blame Hillary for these voters disenfranchisement, why are you not pressing for voting rights to be returned to the innocent Democrats of those states?

You can not have it both ways. You can not say "Hillary took their voting right away" and also say "WE do not want them to vote because they broke the rules." In saying the second you take their voting rights away right now with no help from Hillary.

I do not think that you people even realize the depths of your own illogical thinking.

[UALRBSofL]

74. McCamy I love reading your journal

It looks like you put a lot of research into them. Anyway, I agree with you on this problem.

I will kick and recommend.

[youngharry]

75. McCamey reading your posts

McCamy reading your posts are instructive and very up-to-date American journalism. You start with a "conclusion" and then cherry-pick the items that support your conclusions. VERY GEORGE W. BUSH PROPAGANDA.

[UALRBSofL]

104. Quit hating on McCamy

Just because you don't have the skills or intelligence to write like him.

[JoFerret]

140. Get thee to Harfleur

young harry

[SunsetDreams]

2. Apparently you didn't watch the interview with Larry

King tonight.....please stop spreading this....

[sudopod]

3. LOL

ur silly.

[anonymous171]

4. They...broke...the rules.

End of story. Maybe Hillary will reign her states in beforehand next time.

[Texas Hill Country]

55. This.... Is... Not... Monopoly

[backscatter712]

60. We're supposed to have rule of law in this country.

We create a serious moral hazard (using insurance company terms) if the DNC does not enforce the rules it has against holding primaries or caucuses too early. Other states, if they feel there won't be real consequences to their actions, will flaunt the DNC rules, and the whole process will become a total mess. Rules have to be enforced to prevent this.

Dean tried to work with Fla. and Mich. He gave them plenty of warning as to what would happen if they chose to break the rules. They did it anyways, and the state's Democrats in their legislatures went along with it. Dean negotiated with the states and Obama and Clinton, and tried to come up with an alternative solution to reenfranchise their voters in a way that is fair and within the rules, but their state legislatures wouldn't have it. Now it's too late. The ones to blame are Florida's and Michigan's state legislatures, who thought they could be cute and play loose with the rules, but got busted. They're the ones that should face consequences for disenfranchising their own voters.

When Bush considers laws to be optional, we cease to have rule of law, and we have rule of asshole. When states consider the DNC rules to be optional, the election process itself becomes a mockery. At some point, a foot needs to be put down.

[unapatriciated]

68. Yes he tried to work with them, the problem was....

it was the repugs in Florida calling the shots not the Democrats. So we punish our fellow Democrats for what Repugs did.

"The ones to blame are Florida's and Michigan's state legislatures, who thought they could be cute and play loose with the rules, but got busted. They're the ones that should face consequences for disenfranchising their own voters."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_legislatures

Florida Legislature House of Representatives R 78-42 2 Senate R 26-14 4

You know they Repugs counted their Florida votes

Once again our party leaves the door unlocked for another stolen election.

[backscatter712]

76. The Democrats in the Fla. legislature almost unanimously went along with the Repugs.

Dean himself stated that the punishment wouldn't have been so severe if the Democrats in the legislature didn't play along when the Repugs were trying to game the system. If they'd fought to stay within the rules and lost, they probably wouldn't have had all their delegates taken away.

[McCamy Taylor]

93. Didn't they offer them the lure of fixiing the e-vote problem? Something

they would never have been able to get without agreeing to this? And how were the Dems supposed to know that they would be disenfranchised?

You are calling Florida Dems Bad Dems because in January more of them voted for Hillary the same way you called New Hampshire and Ohio Dems bad Dems .

[riskpeace]

138. The primary move was linked to a verified voting bill

This is the first time I had heard that Governor Dean said that if the Florida Democratic legislators had voted against a bill that got rid of touch screens and mandated a paper trail, then I would not have to be disenfranchised by my own party.

I'd like to see this statement from Governor Dean. It could influence my current opinion of his political skills.

[McCamy Taylor]

91. Voting Rights Act says that any "rule" that prevents a vote from being counted is illegal.

While no one has a legal right to vote or participate in a primary, since this nation is effectively controlled by either the Democrats or the Republicans and one of their nominees will be president, if people are shut out of the nomination process, they are effectively disenfranchised.

The voters of Florida were disenfranchised in 2000 and 2004 by Republicans who said "Them's the rules" and "If you can not punch the chad out, your vote does not count" and "Too bad that your name is the same as a felon's name---better to punish thousands of innocents than to let one felon vote."

Morally, the Obama camp at DU is doing the same thing right now---embracing voter suppression and disenfranchisement when the voters are crying out to be heard---all for the advancement of their candidate.

Morally, you are exactly the same as George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004.

If the choice comes down between allowing people who want to vote a chance to vote and telling them "Sorry no. The rules say that you can not vote" that is undemocratic.

[crankychatter]

5. When people walk away from you at bus stops

do you just keep talking?

[crankychatter]

6. NOBODY CAMPAIGNED-EVERYBODY AGREED

any questions?

[ThatBozGuy]

28. Thats two.

Chuckles you gave me tonight cranky, welcome aboard.

[Divernan]

61. By now everyone knows to take a taxi if he's at the bus stop.

[sasquatch]

67. .

:applause:

[crankychatter]

7. Why do Clinton Campers repeat "official talking points"

ad NAUSEUM no matter HOW ridiculous?

Like Fox News Parrots?

Are they Republicans?

[McCamy Taylor]

32. Why do Obama supporters assume that I am a Clinton supporter because I object to

the lies and distortions which abound during this campaign? If you read my journal with an unbiased eye---hard for some to do--- you will see that I do not call either candidate the winner. I ask that all votes be counted and that the primary proceed and that the lies and distortions cease.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee---Hillary, Obama---I do not really care which it is. Their platforms are identical. However, I want this party to have a fighting chance in the fall. If the nation sees us denying people the vote, that does not look very democratic or Democratic.

[jgraz]

42. hmmm.... it might have something to do with your completely disingenuous pro-Hillary spin

Just a guess... :shrug:

[McCamy Taylor]

94. If it isn't pro-Obama bias it is pro-Hillary spin....

That is paranoid thinking.

[JVS]

8. Waaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Howard Dean enforced the rules! Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!

[Connonym]

29. My thoughts exactly

they KNEW the consequences but they went ahead and moved their primaries anyway. Too fucking bad. Obama didn't disenfranchise the people of MI and FL, the people of MI and FL disenfranchised themselves. Now they're acting like sullen teenagers who didn't really believe that mom and dad would take away their car if they missed curfew. Welcome to the real world kids. Howard Dean is probably a great dad too.

[unapatriciated]

65. It amazes me that Duer's still don't get it.

"Obama didn't disenfranchise the people of MI and FL, the people of MI and FL disenfranchised themselves."

It was the repugs that moved the primary date in Florida. The Democrats had no say and could not stop it (they tried but were out voted). They were given two options, vote in the early primary or not vote at all. Our party could have handled this differently, but chose not to. Several states moved their primaries to an earlier date, some were given waivers (like NV) some were not. We continue to blame and punish the voters who had no control over it. Since when is our party about suppressing votes or punishing Democrats for Republican dirty tricks.

Many on this board refuse to acknowledge what was really done in Florida. This was another repug dirty trick to split our party. The Repugs need just enough controversy that will give them that margin of error that will enable them once again to steal the election.


I feel like I'm in a time warp and it's 1972 all over again.

[PassingFair]

80. Here is a video of the Florida democrat's LEADER, trying to "STOP" it.

:rofl:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/files/geller_amendment_fullh.264%20300Kbps.mov

Anybody watching KNOWS that the Florida
Dems WANTED to move ahead, DAMN THE TORPEDOES!

[Connonym]

85. Yeah that makes it all the more tragic how the republicans screwed us

because he was clearly so passionately trying to fight it. :sarcasm: Republicans have a lot of blood on their hands but let's be fair, we can't blame this one entirely on them.

Dean is handling this the only way that makes sense. If you allow the delegates to stand it's not only caving but it's also not fair to the people who didn't bother to vote on election day because they believed that it was pointless. If you re-do the election it's still not fair because, again, you're caving, it's going to be expensive AND you open up a huge potential for mischief votes.

FL and MI voters will still have their say in November. I'm not a fan of the current primary system. I wanted to vote for Edwards but he was out by the time I got to vote. How is that any less a disenfranchisement? I think if we really want to make this whole thing fair we need to seriously consider revamping our entire primary process to have everyone vote on the same day. While we're at it, we should really shit can the electoral college. If we're a true democracy and everyone's vote is equal then let's make them really equal.

[McCamy Taylor]

95. Exactly. "Since when is our party about supressing votes?"

[evolvingsteve]

10. I say....

Split the Delegates 50/50 for MI and FL so we don't risk making this unfair to either candidate with a flawful re-vote. This way, voters are not disenfranchised because delegates are still seated while we're still upholding the DNC's rules that their elected leaders to these states broke.

[kennetha]

12. Silliest most self-serving crap I've heard yet

[kennetha]

11. Great Work! Highly Informative!

Only one thing. If Michigan and Florida delegations are seated or re-voted, the total needed to win the nomination goes up. Sooner or later the narrative on this one in the media will turn decisively against the Obama camp. How can democrat basically say, as Obama did on Larry King tonight, that the voters in two key states should be disenfranchised.


Go Hillary!

[Hissyspit]

20. "Sooner or later the narrative on this one in the media will turn decisively against the Obama camp"

And that is based on what exactly?

[PassingFair]

81. On the fact that Hillary Clinton can support the invasion of Iraq...

and then try to spin it both ways.

Same MO....

Same BULLSHIT political "smoke and mirrors"
that aren't fooling anyone.

[EFerrari]

21. You really need to learn something about how these primaries are run

so you don't sound so silly.

[McCamy Taylor]

24. If the total needed to win goes up, then that puts them both farther away from

winning by simple delegate count, which would not be good for Obama since he can make it right now if he does well but not if there are any slip ups but if the threshold goes any higher it gets to be a problem even for him---which puts the contest with the Superdelegates for both of them.

I couldn't find my calculator so I did all this math in my head. Someone correct me if I got the numbers wrong, please.

[crankychatter]

35. I think you spelled "Imaginitive" incorrectly

So do you get paid for acting like Marie Osmond?

Isn't it embarrassing?

[JTFrog]

39. You obviously don't get paid for being a spell-checker.

:rofl:

That could be embarrassing.

[frog92969]

13. Where was Clinton's "concern" when she thought she didn't need them?

And how can you call either state's contest fair?

And why are you a willing pawn in her agenda?

[anamandujano]

16. Why don't you read the whole post.

[PoliticalAmazon]

119. Where was Clinton's concern about our votes in 2000 and 2004?

She sat silent while our votes were stolen.

Why are votes suddenly so important now?

[anamandujano]

14. Thanks for this. They think it's a winning strategy to fuk everyone over.

The Obama strategy is actually quite brilliant. Claim that he has a mandate because for the moment he is ahead in delegates and votes. Never mind that someone else could have made the same claim at some other point in time.

At first they said the supers should be bound to vote with their constituents (completely missing the fact that pledged delegates serve that function.) When Hillary took Massachusetts and created a hypocrisy problem for Kennedy and Kerry, they shifted their stance to supers who don't do what they should do (vote Obama) might face a challenge to their seats. They sent out Bill Thug Bradley to deliver that threat.

People are beginning to notice how his stories on Wright and Rezko undergo revision as new information is about to hit the news. I hope they can see his hypocrisy on this issue also.

However, you will still read posters at DU talk about the possibility that Democrats in Florida might get a chance to vote in a new election as being the same kind of election fraud as that which Jeb Bush perpetrated in 2000 when he drew up a phony felons list that kept Blacks from voting.

I was reminded of this also but mainly more as analogous to keeping the whole state from voting. They are treating all the primary voters as felons.

As I keep saying, pretending the people in Florida and Michigan haven't voted doesn't take away from the fact that the will of the voters is for Hillary to be the nominee. You are more correct to say maybe, but I think she will do well with the remainder of the primary states. I believe Obama has patched together his lead with Repuke crossovers who meddled, non-representational caucuses and outright threats to supers, especially the black supers (most of who have worked their hearts out for their constituents and don't deserve this sort of skullduggery.)

[1776Forever]

15. MI & FL delegates will be seated - I think the nomination will be finalized soon after NC

I could be wrong about the NC time line but I know in my heart that MI and FL delegates will be seated at the convention. This has been a tragedy for both States and the leadership of the Parties in the States (I am in FL) must be held accountable! They screwed this up to start with!

[EFerrari]

17. What a bunch. Hillary is the one that benefits from vote suppression

because OBAMA is the one bring in new voters.

[Hissyspit]

18. How is the Obama campaign working to keep the Michigan and Florida primaries

from being re-voted? What does the campaign have to do with it? Isn't that between the DNC and the state party leaders? The voters who voted in their primaries who are not going to be counted - isn't their complaint with their state party leaders and not the candidates? Can't they change their party leadership if they are dismayed by the way they are running the party, i.e. screwing up, after being warned ahead of time, breaking the rules and getting their primary made null and void?

I guess the Obama campaign probably doesn't want the MI and FL primaries done over, I seem to remember him saying he would go along with whatever solution the states and DNC came up with, but where is the evidence of deliberate strategy, where is the evidence of planned suppression that you claim? If you can't back it up, I have to assume that your main thesis is not supported, no matter what Obama supporters may have erroneously posted.

[unapatriciated]

70. In florida it was the repugs who changed the primary date.

It is Democrat voters who are disenfranchised not repugs, so it doesn't matter to them. Florida Democrats have no power to change "state party leaders" if they are in the minority. I don't know how we are going to fix this but I fear if we do nothing we leave the door unlocked for another stolen election.

Florida Legislature House of Representatives R 78-42 2 Senate R 26-14 4

The repugs have been going strong with their dirty tricks since 1972 and this has their fingerprints all over it.

[Window]

19. You need to stop spamming.

You know perfectly well how all this started and it has nothing to do with Senator Obama. He didn't break it and he doesn't have to fix it. He said a thousand times, he would go along with a fair solution. Let those responsible for this fiasco deal with it.

I asked you once before, but you never answered me. I have seen the same posts of yours from DU on FR, do you post there or are they copying and pasting your posts from this website?

[McCamy Taylor]

22. Wow. I dont even read FR, But now we know that you do.

:rofl:

[SunsetDreams]

23. and you apparently only cite sources

to spin your "truth", not obama's own words!

[McCamy Taylor]

25. I like to cite Obama's surrogates at DU. He has mostly remained silent on the re-votes.

At least I understand that is the "official" line. That the re-vote is supposed to be between the states and the Democratic Party and no one else is allowed to interfere and all the Obama supporters crying foul and the press crying foul and KO crying foul do not exist and no one can hear them.

[EFerrari]

31. And neither is Hillary's abortive trip to Detroit supposed to exist.

She showed up there and tried to strong arm the state people and she waved her list of funders and just made it look like she was trying to buy an election.

The way you blame Obama for her stupid behavior is just amazing. She's tone deaf, she steps on everyone's toes and has no sense of appropriate boundaries. Must be Obama's fault.

This race was hers to lose.

[Divernan]

63. Oh yeah, the Michigan detour & then she lied to the vets group in West Va.

She made a last minute schedule change to go to Michigan. Then after keeping a bunch of West VA vets waiting for many hours, she showed up and blamed the delay on getting a late start that morning "due to the weather". The lies just keep piling up don't they?

[Window]

26. I don't read FR. Went there for a hot minute at the request of another DU'er.

Deloused, took a shower and I'm just fine thank you very much.

:rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

33. On a more positive note, do not be afraid to continue this primary to Denver.

This really is the most important Democratic primary since FDR was first nominated. The economy is on the brink of ruin. A Democratic win could save us from a second great depression. It will mean health care. It will mean the end of the war.

States whose vote has never mattered are getting to participate this time. Turn out in the Democratic Primary is sky high. This means that people are excited. The longer the primary continues, the more excited they will be. The more the MSM will glamorize the candidates. Since there will be no presumptive nominee to smear, they will leave them alone (relatively speaking--compared to what the Dems can expect after the nominee is chosen).

The important thing is for the public not to get the impression that either side is trying to stop the democratic process---no calling a premature halt to the primary, no blocking votes, no doing anything that smacks of voter suppression. Americans have been denied their vote under Bush-Cheney and they are very touchy about the subject. Take my word for it. They will not be consoled by excuses like "They broke the rules". Americans will say "But that is not fair."

Be prepared to compromise or be prepared to pay the price in November.

[Binka]

48. This means that people are excited. The longer the primary continues, the more excited they will be.

Go write for a porn site. The bulk of your argument is nonsense. Trashy nonsense.

[bowens43]

34. Complete amd utter bullshit.

Is there length that you hill supporters won't go to to try to steal the election that your queen mother can't win?


Fucking disgusting

[crankychatter]

36. I came, I saw, I concurred

me and mcarthur

[Divernan]

64. And you shall return, too, right! Excellent. You're good company.

[boppers]

37. Voter supression? In states without votes?

When they hold legitimate contests, they can be counted.

Doesn't look like they want to, though.

[McCamy Taylor]

99. The poll I cite above shows the voters want to. In Mi one reason the state won't is because

Obama objects to keeping the Republicans from double voting. Why does he want Republicans to double vote? That kind of objection is nothing more than a tactic to make sure there will be no re-do.

[Horse with no Name]

40. Wonderfully and astutely laid out and notated

Of course the obamites will gnash their teeth and screech foul at the top of their lungs...but you are absolutely correct and truthful.

[Lerkfish]

41. bullshit.Michigan and Florida DNC, with help from the DLC and GOP gambled with voters and lost

its that simple.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. Why Has Clinton Stubbornly Refused to Allow More Inexpensive Caucuses?

I am impressed by the sheer number of letters you typed in your message, but you can't spin it that Obama is to blame. Clinton only wants things a very specific way - namely because she doesn't know how to organize a grassroots level caucus. That doesn't speak well of her ability to organize pressure on Congress to pass much needed reform on health care and the enivronment/energy.

[Mezzo]

51. because BOTH of these states use primaries.

why should the voters have to cater to Obama's preferred way?

[dansolo]

44. 2024 is without MI anf FL

Your premise is severely flawed, because the required number increases if you add in the delegates from MI and FL.

[jason_13]

45. Really?

I didn't know people were still thinking of supporting Hillary. Thanks for the post.

[McCamy Taylor]

98. If you add them in and increase the total, Obama will have trouble getting enough to win.

Because Hillary gets more of the votes from these two states than he does, so the thresh hold rises higher than his delegate total does. That might increase the chance that they both show up at the convention without enough delegates for a win. So either way, it is to him advantage to disenfranchise these voters.

[Vinca]

46. How many times does Obama have to say he will abide by the DNC

rules? If the DNC comes up with elections in Michigan and Florida, I'm sure Obama will be there. I've never heard of a candidate having to sign on for an election to take place. You're using Obama as a scapegoat.

[not_too_L8]

47. You are so full of crap!

it's nice the way you cherry pick your information and spin it like a top.

Even with FL and MI Hillary counted is behind in delegates and popular vote!

[Dinger]

50. Wow, Quite A Post!

I am speechless (almost)!

[BooScout]

52. Excellent points....

It amazes me that any Democrat would want to disenfranchise any state......much less Florida of all states.

[Eurobabe]

53. Hey dude, talk to the state party leaders of FL and MI

you are half-a-bubble-off-plumb.

[Unca Jim]

54. So, does anyone object...

to a primary or caucus for both states? Not that I can tell. I agree both states should get a voice. Then, when they come in 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, or whatever the delegate totals won't change much and Obama will still be significantly ahead.

Then we go to the convention, select a nominee, and no one can claim they were disenfranchised.

Unless you're suggesting MI and FL are going to be landslides for Clinton or Obama, which seems unlikely. They won't change things much.

There's no reason not to let them vote as long is it's not before when they were allowed to vote by the party. I think we could easily raise the money to pay for it. I'd give $50.

I assume, of course, that you're not for including the votes taken early as is.

[McCamy Taylor]

100. Exactly! I want them counted. I don't care who wins there. If Obama wins, great!

It adds legitimacy to his campaign. All the nation's Democrats will know that Obama really did win all the nomination. There will be no more bitterness. Florida and Michigan will not head into the fall election angry at the Dems.

I do not care if it is Obama or Hillary. I just want a strong nominee. We will not have a strong nomine if we have the uncertainty of these two states being disenfranchised. The McCain camp will play this as Democratic dirty tricks. They will make it look much worse than I have here.

[susankh4]

56. Voter suppression is a serious thing.

But, anything to win. and I do mean ANYTHING!

I am so disgusted with my party now.

[cooolandrew]

57. Obama has said he didnt' halt MI re-vote. It is their decission even Randi Rhodes said this.

The state decided as they are stone broke can't afford another run.

[LibGranny]

58. Clinton's attempts to break the rules!

Since when should HRC be allowed to set the rules for anything? Didn't she initially say she knew the FL & MI primaries wouldn't count? Didn't the DNC set up the rules and say those states' delegates wouldn't be seated? Why should anything change now, just because she's losing? Why is she so obtuse? She's too closely tied to big business (just like her husband) for my taste - she should have already conceded to Obama!

[Joe Chi Minh]

134. That seemed weird to me. Anyone else, and they'd have been harrassed to concede long ago, wouldn't

they?

[PerpetuallyDazed]

59. Um, ok...

I didn't realize Obama had this much power to suppress the vote! <--- if anything, this is soooo backwards.

It couldn't possibly be his party's stupid rules, right? :eyes:

[1620rock]

62. ...sigh, another fake election where votes will not be counted...why bother.

[mmonk]

66. He must head the DNC then since they made the rules.

[smiley_glad_hands]

69. He still beats her with MI and Fl seated. LOL Why cheat? eom

[Patriot Abroad]

71. Everyone knew MI and FL were out before the voting started.

The rules were set. If Hilary was comfortably ahead, She'd be happily ignoring MI and FL instead of deperately "placating the voters of Michigan and Florida" for the general election.

It is unfortunate that those states refused to back down on this issue before the election, in that it punishes their voters.

But unfortunately these things have to be decided somehow, and I think it would disenfranchise a lot more than just Michigan and Florida voters if somehow Clinton achieved a large number of delegates out of these two states, and came back with the superdelegates and won the nomination.

[Romulox]

77. Everybody KNEW about the poll taxes in the Jim Crow South, too. That didn't make it right. nt

[IsItJustMe]

72. I guess it was Obama's fault that MI and FL decided to go against the rules of the party. The

logic of Hillary supporters has gone beyond the point of being profoundly absurd.

Anything to win.

[Tafiti]

78. No shit.

"Voter suppression" -- hyperbole much? Nevermind that MI and FL knew exactly what the potential consequences were, and that no candidate had absolutely anything to do with it. Profoundly absurd indeed.

Clinton supporters on DU --> :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

[rucky]

73. The candidates don't decide how to seat delegates or count votes. n/t

[SoonerPride]

79. This just in: McCamy loves the bold text button.

really

[cottonseed]

82. That's a lot of work explaining away DNC rules.

Hillary knew what she was doing. She just didn't know she'd be losing at this point. Stick with the kitchen sink, it was working well for a while. I think even that has run its course though.

[twandx]

83. Typical BO bullony

I am not and I do not know anyone who is typical. Talk about steriotypes - he sure has them cemented into his hard drive.

[jahyarain]

84. and if Hillary was a white man she wouldn't be where she is

she couldn't even pass the bar exam until her new hubby Green Acred her ass 2 Little Rock. she wouldn't be where she is if she wasn't riding Bill's (once) respected presidency. and if she wasn't a woman, u wouldn't be supporting her. grow up. they were told not 2 break the rules. now deal with it.

[JoFerret]

86. try free republic

you will enjoy the democratic bashing there even more

[Patchuli]

116. I didn't see any "democratic bashing"

but the sad truth. I no longer respect Bill either.

[JoFerret]

128. Proof positive that Obama is a

divisive figure.

[Patchuli]

129. And Hill is not? LOL! nt

[JoFerret]

130. Many strongly disagree with her and

the r/w detest her. But the Obama campaign creates a hatred for her that is totally beyond normal bounds and quite uncalled for.

Like it or not - he is a divisive figure. He also inspires an almost worship like following from some. Lots of extremes being engendered.

[Patchuli]

131. I don't think the RW detest her all that much anymore

since I think the neolibs (as herself would be) and the neocons are not that far apart in opinions. I also think Obama has a message that America needs to hear. I am tired of the stupid racism and separatism in this nation. United we stand, divided we fall. I think Obama can unite U.S. quite honestly.

I will qualify with the fact that my fondest desire was for Al Gore to take his rightful place. Since he did not want it, I wished for John Edwards to win. That didn't happen sadly. The best next candidate is Obama. Quite simply, Hillary Clinton does not speak for me. I find her maneuvers in this primary to be despicable as well and cheapening our party by association.

[JoFerret]

133. What you may "think" is not backed up by any data of merit

And anyway - "your"(i.e. meaning democratic ) hate and irrational responses have surely filled any gap.
Those democratic Hillary haters are shameful.
Supporting a favored candidate is one thing. Trying to destroy a worthy rival is foul.

[Patchuli]

139. That's a matter of opinion, JoFerret

and I am not hateful anywhere in what I said. Maybe a closer re-read on your part would demonstrate that I am tired of the hateful, diviseness Rovian-politics from the Clintons in this campaign. This has been the longest and nastiest primary I've ever seen in my party.

However, if Hill won the nom, I'd vote for the Democratic candidate in the GE. I am a loyal Dem.

As for anyone trying to "destroy a worthy rival," I just don't see Obama doing that to Hill. You kind of projected a lot in your post...

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. I don't think Hillary is wired for politics, like a lot of the Republicans

for that matter. Too visceral.

It's a truism that almost all politicians are very much 'less than candid' on some level (many on an atrocious level), and it seems to be the way they are wired. But in Hillary's position, where her record has been so 'sympatico' to Bushco's agenda, the reticence shown by Obama, most unusual, if not unique for a politician - just because he knows politics and the monstrous pro-Republican perjurious scheming of the media, I very much hope - would be an absolute requirement for her.

However, on the one hand, she knows she couldn't make that work, and on the other, trying to square the circle on the massive scale necessary, given that her record is there for all to see, is surely futile and demeaning. In view of it, her position is surely untenable. People don't want another corporatist, and blatant dissimulation, well, it's a no-no, isn't it?

I suspect that Obama is consummately hard-wired for politics, and could probably get further in convincing people, if he had had Hillary's record, than just about anyone else, by skilfully negotiating round the issues. However, I still doubt if even he would managed to square such manifest circles. Let's hope he has as much integrity as he seems to have.

I'm not impugning Hillary's integrity, as such. It's just that I think she seems to me like a very compassionate and devout old lady who lived not far from us, who - I forget the actual conversation - gave me the distinct impression that she thought when it came to selling a second-hand car, the normal rules of honesty didn't apply. Women are generally much more able to reconcile such inconsistent behaviour than men - hence the large majority of Christian blue-rinse Tory matrons, baying for blood at the annual Tory conferences in the UK. No prisoners.

It's all or nothing with them. The most courageous and most numerous whistle-blowers by far seem to have been women, but generally, I think it's true, nevertheless, that women are first-rate at telling bare-faced lies, without turning a hair. I believe I read that this was actually the finding of a team of researchers, though there are so many dopey reports of research findings reported in the papers...

[Nia Zuri]

87. Hey Hillary Staffer! Is disenfranchisement Friday's talking point.?

Love the high minded stance for democracy. Unfotunately I think MI and Fla votores are more worried about the NCAA torunament than propping up Hillary's moribund candidacy. What else you guys have cooked up?

[McCamy Taylor]

101. The above is a shameful post. It is a slur on MI and Florida. EVERYONE LOOK!

"Unfotunately I think MI and Fla votores are more worried about the NCAA torunament than propping up Hillary's moribund candidacy."

Basically, scard has written that people in Florida and Michigan do not want to vote or care to vote, they care more about sports!!!

This is utter bullshit!

[fadedrose]

88. The purpose of a primary

is to give voters a CHOICE of a slate of candidates. The earlier the primary, USUALLY there is a greater number of choices one may select. January 15 was extremely early yet fell short in what it offered.

Now, in Michigan, when the date was decided, 5 candidates asked to have their names REMOVED (their names were ALREADY on the proposed ballot) because the date was not approved by the DNC.

At this point you have to ask why the ELECTED PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS bothered to go through with a meaningless primary that did not even have the names of all of the candidates on it. I feel that they cheated the people of Michigan by going through with the election with only Hillary's and some candidates' names who they knew would get less than 1% of the vote.

Hillary herself said the primary wouldn't mean anything. Flip flop flip flop....

[kerry-is-my-prez]

89. The way they are disenfranchising FL & MI reminds me of the 2000 election.

How the Repubs spun it just perfectly to make it look like Bush was the rightful winner and that Gore was trying to take it away from him.

Nice to see how the Dem Party has now turned into the Repub Party - with all of the hatred towards Hillary and Bill Clinton and the same old sexism that the Repub Party has too.

[dailykoff]

90. Filing this one under "severe symptoms."

Bed rest recommended.

[Citizen Kang]

97. Playing by the Rules = Disenfranchisement ????

Only in your twisted logic.

The DNC stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates. Not Obama.

[McCamy Taylor]

102. Is this what we have descended to at DU? Slurring people who want to vote?

Check out post 87. "Love the high minded stance for democracy. Unfotunately I think MI and Fla votores are more worried about the NCAA torunament than propping up Hillary's moribund candidacy. What else you guys have cooked up?"

What the fuck? As the Rasmussen poll which I cite above shows, the majority of Democrats in Michigan want to be allowed to vote in this Democratic primary. However this poster who claims to support Obama has just slurred the Democrats in Michigan and Florida, claiming that they are really more interested in sports than in the eternal vigilance that we all must show.

How on earth can any Democrat ever justify this kind of talk? It is rude--even prejudiced---it promotes the lie that people's votes do not matter in the scheme of things or to them. This is not what the Democratic Party stands for.

[robbedvoter]

111. Ironic for a website born out a stolen election, ain't it? Things come full circle.

[stevenleser]

103. Lies and flamebait. Welcome to my ignore list.

[SeattleGirl]

105. Bullshit!

OBAMA didn't disenfranchise the voters in FL. The GOP and the Democratic Party in Florida did.

And for that matter, CLINTON didn't disenfranchise the voters in FL. Again, the GOP and the Democratic Party in Florida did.

Quit spreading this crap around. It's disgusting.

[Redstone]

106. I've seen some goddamn delusional posts here, but yours tops them all.

Time for a checkup from the neck up, or at least a nice vacation?

Redstone

[snappyturtle]

107. If the voters in MI and FL think so little of their votes and ignore

the General Election, what can I say other than they are disenfranchising themselves.

[TheDebbieDee]

108. K&R simply because the OP is causing heads to EXPLODE!

;^)

[robbedvoter]

109. I fail to see BO's justification to oppose a revote in Mi. Hillary has a win, I would've

understood it coming from her, but why BO?

[kwenu]

110. I have ZERO sympathy for FL and MI. They broke the rules and tried to jump the line on ALL of us.

Now, its time to pay the price. The price isn't we're going to now give you the influence you tried to get by CHEATING!!!!!!

Get it?! Michigan and Florida disenfranchised THEMSELVES!!!! The precedent of endorsing that kind of crap encourages it in the future. Trust me. No one will ever try that again after the example of these two states.

Oh, and if that sucks for Hillary, too bad. She agreed to the rules too.

[JoFerret]

141. Doesn't make it right though

.

[TheDebbieDee]

112. .

[McCamy Taylor]

113. McCain is going to have a lot to work with when he paints the Dems as unfair to voters

Here are some stories he will be able to draw upon:

http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/index.php/2008/01/18/nevada-turns-ugly-clinton-campaign-alleges-voter-intimidation-by-obama-organizers/

Culinary workers in Nevada claim that their union tried to keep them from caucusing if they would not pledge to vote for Obama.

http://sadbastards.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/obama-wins-the-jackpot-in-nevada-hillarys-campaign-in-meltdown/

Obama alleges NY fixed the Harlem vote and the Nevada teachers union filed lawsuit to keep casino workers from voting for Obama at Hillary's request

http://202.54.157.193/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=f6d0d5e7-e4a6-4f08-944f-7ab230025a80&ParentID=7bfc16f5-d62a-4c5b-8e82-fcb34129c5dc&MatchID1=4664&TeamID1=5&TeamID2=2&MatchType1=1&SeriesID1=1173&PrimaryID=4664&Headline=Clinton+campaign+accuses+Obama+camp+of+vote+suppression

Hillary caucus goers claim they were locked out of Texas caucuses and denied paperwork by Obama caucus goers.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/3/4/142712/2196

Obama caucus goers accused of filling out forms for caucuses and turning them in earlier in the day in Texas

http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/obamas_campaign_smears_clinton_campaign_bsb_whistles_and_looks_the_other_way

Obama campaign in Ohio accuses Clinton campaign of cooking up a voter suppression plot in advance of the election (fear the Hillary, she will do anything to win, even spread fear and terror in the hearts of Democrats--no wait, that is Obama's camp spreading the fear :rofl: )

Jerid just posted a story about the Obama and Clinton campaigns both threatening litigation over Ohio.

Here's what the Obama campaign had to say:

“Our campaign’s goal today is to ensure that any registered voter in the state of Ohio can go to the polls and cast their ballot for their candidate of choice without interference. We understand that the Clinton campaign may want to depress turnout because Barack Obama has closed a 20-point gap over the course of this month as voters across the state got to know him.”

“It has been the hallmark of the Democratic party to educate and protect the rights of voters. If the Clinton campaign disagrees with that principle, they should say so today.”

This is nothing more than a smear designed to suggest that the Clinton campaign has been behind some voter suppression effort. What's even more shocking is that Obama's Ohio campaign makes the inference without making any actual allegation.

Now this doesn't come from some volunteer doing phonebanking for Obama. This is from OBAMA'S STATE CAMPAIGN MANAGER. And he has accused the Clinton campaign of voter suppression without so much of the decency of citing a single example.

Yes indeed. The politics of fear has been very very good for Obama. Lots of people at DU are scared to death of Hillary.

[kwenu]

114. McCain still has to explain why 120 years in Iraq. Let him start there first.

[McCamy Taylor]

115. It's up to 120? Wow. What is the 20 years? Compounded interest?

Have they made the buttons I want yet? The ones with McCain's face and the words "100 Years of War. I can live with that. I hope you can too!"

[Redstone]

117. Don't have much to do that keeps you busy, do you? Jesus, your singlemindedness

is almost frightening. But it's fascinating to watch in a way, like a menacing-appearing spider.

Or a train wreck.

Redstone

[libbygurl]

121. And you have nothing to offer except to slam the poster who did a lot of research to

back up the assertions? Bet you didn't even bother to read it. But, nevermind.

[sueragingroz]

118. The guy's tactics are getting sleezier by the day

made even more sleazy by the lofty veneer....

[mhoran]

120. I appreciate the time and energy you put into your post, but...

...see an awful lot of spin in your arguments.

"All she really said was that there would be no automatic seating of the delegates from that early election."

No, what she REALLY said IS EXACTLY WHAT SHE SAID. "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything."

"For all we know, the RNC directed Florida to make its move in May 2007..."

Pure speculation. Tasty, but can you back that up?

"Forget and cover up the fact that Obama, Edwards, Richardson and Biden dropped off the Michigan ballot as one in October in order to curry favor with Iowan voters, who were incensed at Michigan for stealing their thunder, and also to hurt Hillary by leaving her alone on the ballot which would make her beauty contest win in the state less of a triumph while hurting her in the Iowan primary."

So you KNOW why Obama, et al dropped out? How exactly do you know that?

I have yet to see a proposed solution to this disaster that does not unfairly impact one or the other of the candidates. Absent of that, we are stuck with a problem which is wholly a consequence of the hubris of the Florida and Michigan officials.

The most fair idea I have seen, IMO, is to split the delegates evenly and seat them as such. Somehow, I doubt the Clinton campaign will get behind that.

[citizen snips]

122. K&R

[against all enemies]

123. Who the hell is going to read all that shit? Split it 50-50 and be done.

[LuckyTheDog]

124. UTTER NONSENSE

The Obama campaign did not create that mess. It is not Obama's job to fix it. Obama has followed the rules.

The problem is between the idiotic state Democratic parties and the DNC.

If the issue does not get resolved, it cannot, in any way, be blamed on Obama.

[Splinter Cell]

125. The Hillary Strategy: Bullshit, Lies, Race Baiting

[undeterred]

126. Load of crap.

[stevietheman]

127. Please stop attacking our nominee Barack Obama. n/t

n/t

[LulaMay]

132. I've thought this for a long while. I believe Dean failed to stop this with that in mind.

It's my opinion, but that's what it seems to me.

I'm now of the belief that he and certain other party leaders like Kennedy and Kerry saw the advantage of this from early on, and orchestrated around it, in order to say she was always behind, because they states were being put on IGNORE.

I also find it impossible to believe that they did not know about these potential time bombs of Senator Obama's, but chose to ignore them.

I think they cannot accept the idea of Hillary Clinton as president, and have acted purposefully against her.

I hold them responsible if we lose the GE.

[ProSense]

136. "as long as Obama can keep the voters of Florida and Michigan disenfranchised." Utter BS!

Even in the scenario where Hillary gets MI current votes, thereby disenfranchising Obama's MI supporter, she loses:

Summary of tables (recalculated with new delegate counts) show Obama's delegate lead in every scenario:

Total Delegates: 4048 ** W/o FL & MI - Current Status ** Needed: 2024.5
Pledged Delegates Obama 1415, Clinton 1245
Superdelegates Obama 213, Clinton 248

Total Delegates: 4415 ** With FL & MI included - Results upheld** Needed: 2208
Pledged Delegates Obama 1482, Clinton 1423
Superdelegates Obama 218, Clinton 263

Total Delegates:4415 ** With FL & MI (Obama gets MI 55) ** Needed: 2208
Pledged Delegates Obama 1537, Clinton 1423
Superdelegates Obama 218, Clinton 263

Total Delegates: 4415 ** With MI & FL 50/50 ** Needed: 2208
Pledged Delegates Obama 1565, Clinton 1395
Superdelegates Obama 218, Clinton 263

Total Delegates: 4309.5 ** MI 50/50 FL 1/2 Vote ** Needed: 2155
Pledged Delegates Obama 1415, Clinton 1245
Superdelegates Obama 213, Clinton 248

Total Delegates: 4415 ** FL & MI will Re-Vote ** Needed: 2208
Pledged Delegates Obama 1415, Clinton 1245
Superdelegates Obama 218, Clinton 263

Source: Total and needed delegates

Popular Vote Total
13,281,132 (49.5%)
12,577,409 (46.9%)
Obama +703,523 (+2.6%)

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*
13,615,217 49.5%
12,801,470 46.6%
Obama +813,747 (+2.9%)

Popular Vote (w/FL)
13,857,346 (48.5%)
13,448,395 (47.1%)
Obama +408,951 (+1.4%)

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*
14,191,431 (48.5%)
13,672,256 46.8%
Obama +519,175 (+1.8%)

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)**
13,857,346 (47.5%)
13,776,704 (47.3%)
Obama +80,642 (+0.2%)

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA*
14,191,431 (47.6%)
14,000,565 (46.9%)
Obama +190,866 (+0.6)

link


Hillary can't win

[marshall]

137. Disenfranchisement is a general election thing, not primary

The Constitution says nothing about how parties select their nominee. The DNC can make its own rules and follow them as they see fit, or else bend to the will of grand pubaas like the Clintons.