Why do you think Obama supporters out number Hillary supporters on sites like KOS and DU?

[RiverStone]

Our super scientific polls on DU usually show Obama with a 4 to 1 support ratio.

Those of us that frequent the blogosphere could probably be categorized in some demographic; there are commonalities there.

Yet if DU is to the left of the center of the Democratic party (which I think it is), one could draw a parallel between a more progressive view and larger numbers supporting Obama. At the same time, he seems to be doing a better job of attracting indies and true rethug converts - that is, the disaffected kind vs the follow the Rush strategy in Texas kind.

Hillary supporters are no less loyal or Democratic, but for what ever reason they don't spend as much time living on sites like this. If there are liberal sites out there where Hillary supporter's out number Obama folks, I'd be interested to hear about them. I have not stumbled across any yet, but am opened to be corrected.

Is it fair to draw a conclusion that those who live in the burbs have more web access or penchant to chill on the internet? Maybe - but I live in a beautiful and very rural part of Washington state and our caucuses were 3 to 1 for Obama. Are Barack supporters financially more able to afford the stuff to travel in cyberspace? I'm not sure, but am interested in why he generally has lots more people in his camp on Dem discussion boards.

What do you think?


peace~:)

[xultar]

1. I think a lot of Hillary supporters have left DU and KOS. Don't think they don't exist.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. I personally know 7 Hillary supporters that have left DU because of the abuse they suffered

[kittycat1164]

58. they suffered? and

I'm sure they were always polite and open mined with their end of the discussion.

[Forkboy]

81. Martyrs for Hillary.

They can't even take it here and expect people to buy that their candidate is a leader. The ones that disappeared were some of the most overbearing and obnoxious ones of all, and were shitting all over every candidate and their supporters all last Spring and Summer. When the going gets tough the weak bail. Pffffft.

[RiverStone]

8. I know they exist...but I assume they left because they felt out numbered.

...in the trench-wars and mudslinging. There is plenty of negativity on both sides - I would not blame one side more then the other.

Why else would they leave other than being out numbered?

[LisaM]

17. I have had at least three Obama people try to get me to leave

I've been called "a ugly harpy", a "paleofeminist", told to fuck off, etc., etc.

[RiverStone]

50. That sucks - you have every right to be here!

In fact LisaM, Obama needs Hillary supporters to win the GE (and reverse of course).

Without a debate, this place would be mono-thematic - or boring as hell.

Even out numbered, I'm glad your still here - even in disagreement, I'll say we need you!

When the dust settles, I hope we are fighting the pukes together this fall.


peace~:)

[LisaM]

63. Me too, and I hope women's issues don't end up on the back burner

I can't tell you how deeply I want a woman president. I didn't even realize how deeply until Edwards dropped out. For the record, I have always liked Hillary anyway, but she has impressed me so during this campaign with her resilience, strength, and work ethic. When they both came to Washington state, she did three events to his one (though he got about three times the publicity). I admire that in her. She is willing to fight till the end.

Obama's speech was nice enough, but I fear that the conversation about women's rights has been relegated. We must preserve Roe v. Wade (at the Supreme Court level). I know that the Iraq war is more immediate, but we cannot lose sight of this issue.

[emilyg]

68. Same here

Got a pm calling me ugly inside out, a bitch.

[LostinVA]

79. Same here

I've been called a "Fucking bitch" (never deleted), "Fucking c*nt" (deleted), Troll, paid disrupter, racist, "homophobe" (WTF?), et cetera. Most of the time, it's by somebody who's been here less than two months.

[Forkboy]

82. But you did the right thing and stayed.

If the others really wanted to they could have stayed too.

I was called Fuckboy last night by a Hillary supporter (which was a damn lazy insult)...the fun goes both ways.

I'm glad you stayed though. Seriously.

[xultar]

86. well, if you admit they were out numbered, imagine how many more negative posts and beat downs

they had to endure than y'all did.

Simple numbers

[CreekDog]

15. and many of us simply changed our minds

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

77. Yep -- I know of quite a few who were sick of the really nasty attacks here and left

Or they just stopped posting in GD:P. Most of the worst people here (on both sides) never post outside of GD:P. It makes me wonder if they're really interested in DU, or just want to cause problems.

I've seen a few people in the last week proudly announce they simply put ALL Hillary supporters on ignore. I guess they want to turn this place into Obamaunderground.

[Kittycat]

2. hillis44 & mydd are the only two. But since they spout RW talking points.

I don't take them as serious HRC support sites.

[spotbird]

7. Talkleft doesn't allow proObama opinions either.

As you said, all they talk about are the Republican talking points.

[olkaz]

13. Add TalkLeft to the list.

Anyway, moderate Democrats sell out progressives in order to make nice with the other party. They always do this, they always will.

Which is why I don't like moderates.

[LisaM]

3. Well, age has got to be part of it, along with income.

I live in Washington state too. Our caucus also went for Obama, and it was really fleshed out with what appeared to be students (for whom the two-hour window on a Saturday afternoon worked out just right). It was a nauseating experience overall, but the people there did not really seem representative of the people who live in my neighborhood.

[tekisui]

22. I like your sig line.

:thumbsup:

[LisaM]

28. Thanks! I got it off a t-shirt

that I bought up in Vancouver, BC, at a little bookstore called "Women in Print", that featured books by women writers.

I believe that the bulk of their business came from J.K. Rowling and the Anne of Green Gables books, but it gave them the opportunity to feature a lot of lesser known women writers, particularly Canadian ones. I bought a book of poetry, and the shirt.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Why is it that no one one had a problem with caucuses not being "representative"

When it was the usual situation of 10% voter turnout, with most of them being over 50? Or back when Bill Clinton was winning them.


A bunch of young people and other non-traditional voters turn up this year and all of a sudden it's nauseating? Caucuses have been held on Saturdays for decades, yet you just now noticed that it "worked out" better for students? Probably because those whippersnappers actually had the nerve to exercise their right to vote this time. And not for your candidate. How dare they!
:eyes:

[LisaM]

33. I've been going to caucuses since 1992 and I've NEVER liked them

and the first one I went to was on a weekday evening. I didn't like it at all. Even then, with only nine people in attendance, I ended up not being able to vote for my candidate (Harken) because he didn't meet the threshold. I hated it.

I also complained about them (here) in 2004.

[paulk]

45. people have had problems with caucuses for years

The process has been steadily changing over time, with caucuses being replaced with primaries. Sixty years ago it was all caucuses, and usually ones not even open to the public.

The complaints about the built in unfairness of a caucus vs a primary are nothing new.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. Funny, I don't remember hearing the Clintons complaining about them until.

Considering they were the putative heads of the Democratic party, and had a hand in shaping the primary electoral process, for the past 15 years, you'd think they'd have tried to do something about them.

But oh yeah, Bill was winning them. Never mind. :eyes:

[paulk]

60. it's not a compaint - it's an argument to the superdelegates

that Obama's numbers are inflated by an unfair (non representative) process and that that should be taken into account during the convention voting.

ps - btw - Bill Clinton did not do that well in the caucus states in '92. He also didn't wrap up the nomination until June.

[OhioBlue]

4. it reflects reality

those that pay more attention to politics favor Obama.

Hill makes up for that with name recognition.

[blm]

6. Because more of us have READ government reports than average Dem voters.

More of us can tell you BCCI was the root of 9-11 while most Dem voters would ask, "What is BCCI?"

More of us can tell you that Bill Clinton received 20 million dollars recently from the same Dubai royals who started BCCI and who he advocated for when Bush was granting them our ports deal, and most Dem voters would ask, "Why would Dubai want our ports?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. More of that 'ol Obama egalitarianism.

Many of us can tell you that "optional, universal health care" is an oxymoron, too.

Stop pretending that Obama supporters own the franchise on intelligence.

[blm]

52. Nope - I'm an open government Democrat. Does that MAKE me egalitarian or a citizen who bothered to

get the information needed to understand why terrorists flew jets into our buildings?

And, do you prefer government BE CLOSED to protect the secrecy and privilege of the TRULY POWERFUL ELITE, or do you believe in open government that is accountable to the people?

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. No, your view that only supporters of your candidate are adequately informed...

... makes you ill-suited to give political advice.

If Obama wins the primary, his more smug supporters should keep their elitist views to themselves, because a democrat needs to win this one - and they'll only do so by attracting working-class people. Your attitude does your candidate a huge disservice.

Here's my concern with Obama's speech. He spoke for working-class people, but only in the last third of his speech and then mostly in the abstract. It's not at all clear that issues of class enter into his consciousness, and even then he gives the appearance of thinking about it only for the purpose of devising strategies to mollify them.

[blm]

66. The privileged are those protected by closed government. Those supporters of Clintons who KNOW

their role in continuing protection of BushInc and how deep-sixing all the outstanding matters of BCCI, IranContra, Iraqgate, and CIA drugrunning operations led directly to Bush2, 9-11, this Iraq war and future war with Iran, just don't care about open government.

They aren't stupid - they just believe in the Clintons' knowing they have been protecting closed government and the Bushes.

That's faith.

There are those who ARE dumb, though, and wouldn't know what the hell BCCI is even here at DU.

There are many Obama supporters who never heard of BCCI, but at least they are not pushing closed government down our throats the way Clinton supporters are.

How did that work out for this country the last time?
http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Here we go again with the stealth posts.

If this board is rife with Clinton supporters saying that they want opaque ("closed") government, surely you can find an example? One? Hmm?

Some time ago, I concluded that the level of outrage here is caused by the fact every other post must appear on everyone else's screen but not mine.

Is there any hint, any suggestion that Obama is more likely than Clinton to prosecute Bush's crimes? No. In the area of holding the neocons and disaster capitalists accountable for their crimes, there is no differentiation between the candidates.

Your blind faith that Obama is more inclined to prevent future abuses such as BCCI (and equally bad although legitimized abuses such as those perpetrated by the IMF) is based solely on the observation that his last name isn't Clinton.

Speaking of the IMF, you did know that Obama's economic adviser is Austan Goolsbee?

Here is George Will singing his praises.

[blm]

95. It matters much more that Jackson Stephens, the man who BROUGHT BCCI into this country BANKROLLED

the Clintons careers in Arkansas and underwrote Bill's primary campaign.

BCCI matters LED directly to 9-11 and our involvement in Iraq and are leading to war with Iran.

That is an ENORMOUS FACTOR in which of the two is more LIKELY to have a respect for the citizenry in allowing the documents long hidden to be examined and the books opened at long last.

And since a few of Obama's closest advisors just happen to be dyed-in-the-wool open government advocates, I will trust his presidency as far more LIKELY to trust the citizenry than the PROVEN LOYALTY to closed government and the secrecy of the powerful elite that we get from the Clintons.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Fair enough. n/t

[cooolandrew]

9. Maybe it's just he will be our next president. =)

:bounce:

[BuyingThyme]

10. Internet folks know the truth about the holocaust in Iraq.

[kwenu]

11. LOL! Because we already voted in our primaries and we know who the nominee is.

:toast:

[leftynyc]

12. DU left of center?!!!

There's your problem right there. This site is considered far left by most of the real world.

[SteppingRazor]

72. I'd say that, more accurately, this site is considered pretty far left by most of the country...

not the world. After all, in your typical European Democracy, our Democratic Party would be a very centrist party, and to the left you'd have the Greens, the Socialists, the Democratic Socialists, Labour, fringe parties like the commies, and so on.

[leftynyc]

75. When I said real world

I was speaking metophorically about the reasonable people in the US - I wasn't speaking of outside US politics where I realize they don't even have what we call the republican party.

And I stand by that statement - this site is considered far left, not left of center. But thanks for clearing up my thoughts for me - I worded that poorly.

[SteppingRazor]

76. I certainly agree with you, viz a viz the online world vs. the fleshy world.

I really don't think I could offer a more-valid opinion than any of the other posters here as to why Obama seems to so heavily outweigh Clinton on the net, except to say that I doubt it's any one thing. People in this thread have mentioned average age, income, the so-called cult of personality around Obama, and so on and so on, but I would say that, rather than any one of those things, the preponderance of Obama supporters online is likely due to a combination of all of them.

[mtnsnake]

14. One reason only: The disillusioned are attracted to DU and KOS like moths to a flame

There is no other way to explain it because in real life, it ain't nothing like what you see here.

[jody]

20. Or butterflies to a fresh urine patch. n/t

[blm]

23. True - in real life oblivious citizens who never read the BCCI report exist by the millions.

That is why it is so easy for Bushes and Clintons to get away with what they do over the last few decades.

The faithful trust them over the facts that exist in our nation's historic record.

Like this list that you couldn't find ten people in real life at your Dem party HQ who can tell you about anything on this list.



Only citizens who CARE enough about their right to open and accountable government would even bother to fight closed government and its secrecy and privilege. Most put their trust in closed government lawmakers because they are too lazyminded to want information.


APPENDICES

Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.

[RiverStone]

24. But Obama and Hillary supporters are equally very disillusioned...

...with Shrub's arrogance and abuse of power.

Lots of us on both sides are furious with what the pukes have done to our personal liberties. I'm missing you connection there?

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. Yes. Exactly right. n/t

[frylock]

73. in real life, people watch american idol..

they couldn't give two shits for american politics. there's your reality.

[RiverStone]

83. yes and no

My cynical side would sadly have to agree.

My hopeful side says Dems are participating in RECORD numbers in both the primaries and caucuses.

My realistic side says maybe people can watch American Idol AND participate.

What a concept!

We just need more people who can multi-task. :think:

[PresidentObama]

16. DU was full of Edwards love for a long time, and I was glad to post here then.

As an Edwards supporter...

I don't know a correct response to your OP. But I just wanted to point out I think a lot of the Edwards supporters on KOS and DU went to Obama after he dropped out, which explain why Obama supporters outnumber Hillary supporters.

[Cassandra]

18. Hillary is depending on...

a lot of low income and more conservative voters who think that with the Clintons, the better times of the 90's will come back. They may not know much about the DLC, or many details on anyone's positions. We are more progressive and informed on more of the details.

[FrenchieCat]

19. Because true progressives support a progressive.......

and that progressive candidate's name is not Clinton!

[rucky]

21. Obama's got the netroots.

that's for sure.

[RiverStone]

27. Yep - why do you think that is?

Call it a question for Sociology class 101 :hi:

[rucky]

44. I'd have to guess it has something to do with...

they way the 'net has replaced word-of-mouth. He's been buzzworthy since the red-blue-states speech in '04. He stands out from the crowd. He's fascinating.

He came into the primary as a "rockstar" with high name recognition because of all the buzz about him in the two years prior.

[rinsd]

26. Its amazing some of Hillary supporters are still here, though quite a few have left.

All we have heard all thru 2007 is how we are paid to post on this site. That we don't belong. That we should get with the majority. We've had to deal with an endless stream of bullshit attacks both on ourselves and our candidate since the primary started.

The last couple of months when a bunch of trolls showed up calling themselves Hillary supporters and posting endless hit pieces on Obama & attacks on Obama supporters?

Welcome to our world from Jan 2007 to present.

[RiverStone]

37. I'd admire the staying power of Hillary supporters...

Who have had to negotiate this place in an outnumbered world.

And I'm not talking about folks that want to start flame wars - they are just as damn annoying coming from the Obama camp as well.

So rinsd, why do you think Hillary supporters are out numbered so much here? We are all on the same team, we are ALL disgusted with Shrub and Shooter?

No sarcasm intended, I'm simply curious what you think?

thanks:hi:

[rinsd]

46. Hillary is not popular with the netroots, its that simple.

Shit early in 2007 sometimes it felt like it was me, Wyldwolf, SaveElmer and a few others.....and that was it.

But as the primary progressed and the summer dragged on more and more Hillary fans came out, more and more DUers began to align with a chosen candidate.

In odd circumstance Hillary won supporters here as a visceral reaction against the endless attacks. I imagine the same has happened on a larger scale as the jackasses have flamed for both sides.

[hfojvt]

85. but why isn't Hillary popular with the netroots?

I'd say because the netroots are progressive and informed. Thus they mostly know that Hillary is the least progressive candidate in the primary.

[Lilith Velkor]

87. It was the sexism that did it for me

Go Hillary! :headbang:

[Texas Hill Country]

29. demographics.

[2rth2pwr]

30. If you look at who these two sites actually supported

at the beginning of the race, it was overwhelmingly Kucinich until he faltered, then it was Edwards in first

place until he faltered- now it's Obama.

You see a pattern there?

Both sites will come around to Hillary when they realize she is the one that can win this race.

[Bonobo]

31. Can you handle the truth?

He's THAT much more popular. Period.

She is not liked. Period.

Many of her votes are actually votes for the "team of Clintons". Period.

Clinton-fatugue. Period.

Fear of dynasties. Period.

Youth=hope=internet. Period.

many more to come up with, but I have work to do to feed my family...

[mmonk]

32. DLC. While it's basically not understood in the general democratic

voter electorate in the US, it is on progressive websites seeking change.

[demokatgurrl]

34. It's perception, and maybe youth

Somehow the idea that Obama is more progressive than Clinton has really taken hold, when if you look at scores of their Senate votes, they are virtually identical along the left-right spectrum.

Also, I suspect that people on Kos and even here are mostly younger than this ol' lady. A lot of young people have gotten turned on by Obama.

[displacedtexan]

35. It was similar during the 2004 election year.

DUers laughed at me for taking a job with the Kerry campaign in
the summer of 2003.

The vast majority of DUers were Dean supporters back then (or, at least,
it seemed like they were).

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. Obama's support is from the young, and the college educated and the more affluent.

It seems sensible to suggest that those of us with unrestricted web access, who enjoy writing and are comfortable with the technology are frequently not blue collar folk.

[RiverStone]

43. This is a tough question...

Because can one say...those of us with unrestricted web access, who enjoy writing and are comfortable with the technology are frequently not blue collar folk.

...without sounding elitist in some way.

I'm not challenging your view - honestly, I'm not sure - but could it be what some call a plausible possibility.

Then again, lots of blue collar folk know the internet. I live in a relatively poor area (socio-economically) and yet people here are still Obama wise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. The people driving the trucks on the highway as we speak are more likely to be HRC folk.

They don't have access to a computer. That's not elitist, it's only illustrative of the reason we're not representative of the US voters in general.

[Uben]

40. That's easy

Clinton supporters tend to be older and less likely to spend a lot of time on the internet. Obama supporters tend to be younger, more obnoxious, and spend more time on the internet.

Agree, disagree, I don't give a shit, but that's what I think. No one could ever run me off by something they say on an internet forum, I'm just not sensitive in that way. If someone gets what I believe to be obnoxious or overly argumentative, I ignore them (not to be confused with putting them on my ignore list, I am fully capable of ignoring people on my own!)

I think a lot of people had rather just quit posting than argue with people who are overly obstinate, and yes, I know a lot of us are overly obstinate, myself included!

[MethuenProgressive]

41. Bandwagons are pretty. Fads are popular. People want to sit at the "cool" table.

And they're suckers for a good speech.

[ginnyinWI]

64. that might explain some people for a short period of time, but

certainly not all of it.

One might wonder if that's why people became HRC supporters in 2007. Did those same people jump off hers and onto Obama's in 2008? Possibly. But this can't be the main reason.

I am part of the Obama demographic--not young but college-educated, and someone my age doesn't jump on bandwagons. I started out by reading Obama's second book. Then listened carefully to his speeches and debates. Then when Biden and Dodd bowed out, made my final choice. I know I'm not alone in the way I decided.

And don't knock good speaking. There is no point in having good ideas if you can't communicate them.

[MethuenProgressive]

65. It's only been a "short period of time," ginny

The bloom is off the rose.
We've bought the pretty wrapper.
Now we need to how if the product performs.
So far, not so much...

[Mags]

42. I believe it is because the BO people attack Hillary people so aggressively

and personally.I think there are many other places to go to so they are not bullied.

[RiverStone]

47. I think it is something else...

If you put an EQUAL number of O and C supporters in a room - the aggressive attack ratings are also equal.

I think it may seem like an Obama attack wave, but that has only to do with his greater numbers here - by nature, I really don't think O supporters are inherently more personally mean-spirited then C supporters.

We are are equally capable of being mean or nice.
:think:

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. I think this is true

I've said this several times, but I think that the supporters of both candidates, more often than not, chose their candidates because they were most like them - not because they have some strong affinity for their policies. Thus, every attack on their candidate is a personal attack on them.

[emilyg]

71. For that reason

I spend more time on other sites now.

[paulk]

48. because these sites appeal to liberals who see themselves

as anti-establishment.

Hillary was seen as the establishment candidate.

-------------

[ericgtr]

51. It's not just here either, on my site we voted and are now endorsing Obama

He won with over 80% of the vote over Hillary in a fair, unbiased poll.

[paulk]

54. do you want to know why Clinton supporters are leaving?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5156710

check out what assholes some of the Obama supporters on this positive Hillary thread are, and ask yourself - what would your reaction be?

[Ysabel]

56. i see the same ratio everywhere...

- it's not just here...

[krawhitham]

57. Obama supporters are younger

younger means more on the internet

[CatsDogsBabies]

61. Obama's the better candidate, even if both are good candidates

[Arkansas Granny]

62. I think it might be due in part to the age of posters here. There was a poll here

this morning asking people to state their age. More than half of the respondents to the poll gave their age as 35-55 years, which is the age group that national polls tell us is more likely to favor Obama.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5153188

It could be that many older voters don't spend as much time on message boards as those who comprise the younger voting groups.

[theredpen]

67. Very insightful

Thanks for the link to the post.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Every six months someone posts a poll asking for people's ages.

And every time, the answer is the same. There's a more or less even distribution of participants from 20-70

Given that this is the case, you'd expect most to be in the middle of this range.

The other thing that happens is that if the person asking the question is 25, they'll set up their age brackets something like:
Age 18 to 20?
Age 20 to 22?
Age 22 to 27?
Age 27 to 40?
...or are you old?

Of course then the questionner will be really surprised that half of the participants are the elderly.

I think that Obama's support is not so determined by age as it is by class.

[doyourealize1]

69. intimidation and lack of good news for her

Obama is winning a lot lately. Lately, as in almost two months. I hate to say it, but that's a lot of time to gloat, and a lot of time to bash someone.

It's not necessarily characteristic of all Obama supporters, or any supporters of either side for that matter. I'm sure if HRC were slaughtering him, a lot of her supporters would be gloating as well.

[RYOMYO]

70. Obamamania

:bounce:

[Zero Division]

74. JRE was the original favorite on DU, Kos, etc.

What does this tell you? The answer has already been posted above. The truth is that many have been searching for the anti-Clinton candidate since she entered this race. She is viewed as the establishment candidate by many, if not most of those who consider themselves part of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, amongst which distrust of the Clintons has existed before Edwards or Obama became well known.

[Arugula Latte]

78. One site that I used to go to a lot, mydd.com, was a netroots pioneer

Jerome Armstrong was one of the founders (or maybe THE founder) of the stie ...BUT, he threw in his lot with Hillary. :wtf: It seems so strange to me that Mr. Grassroots wants the entrenched party establishment candidate.

Anyway, there DO seem to be a lot of Hillary supporters there (although it's perhaps split equally).

[totodeinhere]

80. Clinton's supporters are more disloyal according to poll.

Hillary supporters are no less loyal or Democratic,

Not true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5156392&mesg_id=5157470

[Catherine Vincent]

84. The bullies from the Obama camp drive everyone that's not a supporter away.

You folks need to handle that.

[scheming daemons]

89. ..and yet YOU, with your superior inner strength, have been able to tough it out and stay....

:eyes:

[RedShoesBlueState]

88. Honestly? Hostile and Unpleasant tone of Some Obama Supporters

Honestly, the main reason that I don't visit this board very often is that there doesn't seem to be much interest here in pleasant, civil discourse. Who needs the stress, after taking the time to post a thoughtful, even-toned opinion -- only to be greeted with a chorus of "ignored" and obnoxious two-word responses like "Not impressed." This site seems to be more about people getting some kind of smirking pleasure out of putting others down, than it does in listening to what others have to say. There are exceptions, of course -- but the unpleasant people are wearying in their consistency.

[JVS]

90. did you try this website?

www.whiteladiesoversixty.com

[VotesForWomen]

92. cult fanaticism. nt

[susankh4]

94. This is an easy one

because Hillary's supporters are less likely to hang out on the internet. They are:

1) older (and don't relate to the forum.)
2) working class (and don't have time for the forum.)

[bpeale]

96. because they just scream & rant till everyone leaves. then they're top dog.

not much of a strategy.

[Beacool]

98. Kos is way too left wing for some of us.

Last night I heard one of Hillary's bloggers say on TV that they were going to boycott Kos because they had been verbally attacked viciously for a long time and that enough was enough. Good for her!!!

The same thing happens here all the time. No one can post a positive thing about Hillary that the Obama fans don't come and piss all over it. Some of them are worse than the Freepers.