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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:50 AM
Original message
A question directed to supporters of Mrs. Clinton
Yesterday, I was at my county convention in Iowa. I was one of the Edwards delegates and of course, both the Clinton and Obama people were trying to convince us to move to their sides. Not a problem, we all expected that.

The question I have is about the comment I heard from at least 10 of the Clinton people. They told me in no uncertain terms that if Mr. Obama were to be the eventual nominee, they would cross over and vote for McCain.

Is this a common feeling among Mrs. Clinton's supporters? If so, what can you hope to gain by working to elect a man who is against every progressive ideal we as Democrats hold dear?

I was also disturbed by a woman who came to convince us to move over. I listened respectfully to her points, as I would anyone, but I was very turned off when she plainly said that Yes, Mrs. Clinton agreed with Ms. Ferraro's idea of why Mr. Obama is even in the race and further, she agreed that Mrs. Clinton did indeed endorse McCain.

Not a great example of a Clinton supporter and certainly not one who gained any traction among the Edwards people. This same woman became agitated and angry when the final count was done and the Obama section was the largest with 37 of 80 delegates.

The Obama supporters were surprisingly respectful and seemingly understanding of the 20 of us who were still supporting Mr. Edwards.

This post is not meant to flame anyone, nor is it meant to denigrate any supporters of either candidate, I simply don't understand the "if my candidate doesn't win, I'll take my ball and go home" attitude.

Personally, I will work my butt off for the eventual nominee, no matter who it is.

Bettie
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. I can't speak for them
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 07:53 AM by mmonk
and I hope they respond but maybe it's just emotions getting the best of them right now.
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I really hope that it is emotion
Because the idea that if their person doesn't win they'll opt out or support the opposition is really disturbing to me.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Many Obamafolk feel the same way
And it is all nonsense. This is a must win election.

Obama is running a divisive campaign. Clinton is running a tough campaign.
We have to commit to a democrat victory. too much is at stake.

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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. So to you...
..racists comments are OK cuz they = a tough campaign. :puke:

Scorched earth, win at any costs....how sick and sad...and very clear as to what faction is tearing apart my beloved Democratic Party.

:grr:
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Are you talking about the racist comments of Rev Wright? nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
53. Yes, but only if you spell his name...
...G-E-R-A-L-D-I-N-E...F-E-R-R-A-R-O.

:eyes:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Please don't put words in my mouth
And your dog is throwing up on the carpet again.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
54. Dang....
...I guess Maggie has been reading your posts again!

Thanks for the heads up...I will keep her off the computer and in particular anything posted by you!

:hi:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
43. How easily you are distracted
from what matters.

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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:03 AM
Original message
If Obama supporters feel the same way, it is also wrong.
I can only speak to my own experience yesterday in terms of my interactions with people at the convention.

But you are right, this is a must win election.

As to one campaign being divisive and the other being tough, I see invective and vitriol from both sides.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Once again, you're not answering the question. She is asking about Clinton supporters, of which you
purport to be. Can you answer her question?
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
44. I have yet to hear *ONE SINGLE OBAMA PERSON* say they will actually vote for McCain.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:10 AM by Tesha
I have yet to hear *ONE SINGLE OBAMA PERSON*
say they will actually vote for McCain. They may
stay home. They may vote for Nader. They may
vote Green or further left. But I haven't heard
a single person say they will vote for the
Republican.*

I've heard plenty of Clinton people say it, though.
But that makes sense: the DLC are really just a
bunch of closet Republicans who used our party to
gain power.

Tesha



* And don't bother saying "But a vote for xxx is
just like a vote for a Republican. It isn't. A vote
for xxx is just like abstaining from the war between
the Rs and the Ds, or like casting half a vote for
each.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. how is obama running a "divisive" campaign?
can you give some examples to support your point?
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
77. How nice of you,JoFerret...what happy horseshiite !
Hillary's Smear Machine= "tough"
Obma= "divisive"


Your specious post is filled to the brim with
:puke: Shame on you! :nopity:


























The Big Girl is going down............AND HARD! :spank:
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Kick for a response from the Clinton supporters.
I would like an explanation for this totally disgusting behavior...if you have one.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Don't be so high and mighty. Many Obama supporters
have said the same thing right here on DU.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. That's not an answer. You're deflecting. Can you answer the question she asked? Very simple. Yes or
no. Can you answer the question?
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
52.  "Are you talking about the racist comments of Rev Wright?"
<Crickets>
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. DU and the Iowa caucus are two entirely different things.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:13 AM by Hepburn
Would you say the things which were said to an Edwards delegate as an OFFICIAL representative of HRC? Such things like Ferraro was correct.

See the difference?

There are a ton of things I would say on the DU that in NO way would I say as the official rep of anyone. There is a HUGE difference.

Now...can you respond to the REAL question?
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Which behavior is that?
Preferring Clinton over Obama? Edwards over both?

Haul the criminals and have them stand before us to be condemned.

They have broken rule number one and must be burned at the stake.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Hint: Read and comprehend the OP.....
...and I know it may take awhile, but get back to me when you figure out what the hell is wrong with an official representative of HRC acting in that manner in an official capacity, OK?
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
42. What evidence do we have that it even happened?
Is you dog STILL throwing up on the carpet?
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
59. These are just a few supporters in Iowa. Clinton supporters here are not required to answer for them
Both candidates have overzealous supporters. This is troubling but it may be an isolated incident. But if it is a pattern (i.e. if other Iowans report similar experiences from other caucus sites) the press should look into it.
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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. There seem to be people on both sides who threaten to sit
the GE out or vote for McCain and I haven't been able to figure out whether they are really serious or just venting their frustrations. I don't know if there are more Clinton people doing this than Obama people...probably an equal number on both sides. They seem to have missed (or ignored) the importance of reclaiming the Supreme Court.

I too supported Edwards and will also vote for the Democratic nominee in November. I don't see a alot of Edwards supporters threatening to sit the GE out or vote for McCain. I wonder why?
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. Exit poll data indicates overwhelming majority of Obama supporters would support Hillary
But a much larger number of Hillary supporters would NOT support Obama. Many would support McCain.

I find this troubling. There is no way in hell Hillary or Obama is going to win without the support of the others in November.

I think we have some cult behavior among some supporters. On both sides, but more on the Hillary side apparently.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't share that feeling but I think...
it's been expressed here at DU on both sides.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. You have to remember that Obama ran on Hillary's "negatives"
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:06 AM by DemGa
Negatives acquired through no uncertain terms by the vicious right-wing attacks of the nineties -- This is rightly seen as low-blow by many Democrats. Of course it was all done in a smooth and condescending way. There is very clearly strong anti-Obama sentiment among the base, it's true; and something that is cause for concern.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
50. Really? Name some examples of him running on her negatives
I don't know of any.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. ........
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Try using some of his own words next time.
They just listed the actual grievances democratic voters have with her. Her internet lord minion can cry all he wants about it, but that does not come from the campaign and it transcends his supporters.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. ........
"I don't think there's any doubt that the Republicans consider her a polarizing figure."

"If you choose change, you will have a nominee who doesn't just tell people what they want to hear," Obama told them. "Poll-tested positions, calculated answers might be how Washington confronts challenges, but it's not how you overcome those challenges; it's not how you inspire our nation to come together behind a common purpose, and it's not what America needs right now. You need a candidate who will tell you the truth."

"Democrats will win in November and build a majority in Congress not by nominating a candidate who will unite the other party against us"


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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. .
So he's not allowed to criticize her :rofl: and those are legitimate points. That is a reality we will all have to deal with in the general if she wins this thing.

If she can't withstand that can she withstand a truly negative campaign. I hope so, for all of our sakes.

Funny how he was "obambi" before things got tough for her, now he's "that mean man" who says all the "mean things".


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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Obama's been negative from the start -- though he pretends otherwise
Clearly the point -- and I have shown it to be correct. The negative attacks emanate directly from Obama -- it rolls downhill.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Uh huh
right.


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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. I can't speak for anyone but self
I am a Hillary supporter but vote straight Dem in all elections, no matter who is on the ballot. Will I this year, I honestly do not know yet. I do know that in my city, there is a movement to sit out the vote if Hillary is not the nominee and by all accounts, it appears to be growing. I am not a part of it, only privy to what it going on.
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newfie11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
46. I am a Hillary supporter
and I will vote for a straight Democrat ticket no matter who the nominee is. To do otherwise is suicide for this country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. This is how they planned on winning people over? Again, as
witnessed on this board, couldn't anyone think of anything positive about Clinton to try to sell her on? And to flat out say Clinton agrees with Ferraro; was that their talking point they thought would work? And McCain's the only viable alternative to her? This is discouraging to read.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. again, I IMPLORE Clinton supporters to consider
Roe v Wade and 3 SCOTUS nominees the next president will like have to replace-who would you ladies rather have choosing them Obama or McCain?
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
78. Save your Breath! Indeed, it is the HRC Faction that borders on a cult.
Party? We're the Clintonista Party! Founded circa 1991.
Unity? To hell with you!
We're going down with guns blazin



LIKE THE WICKED WITCH OF the WEST, "THE BIG GIRL" 'TIS MELTING BEFORE OUR EYES.... :nuke: :nuke:
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Mags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. hey, I can't vot for BO when he follows the path of the Rev. Wright.
I don't believe in God Damning America. I love this cournty and will not support someone who does not.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for your service Bettie first of all...
it's troubling for this ex-Edwards supporter to see what the Clinton campaign and a lot of her supporters and surrogates AND operatives here have been doing. It was part of the reason I chose Obama over Clinton. They attack every and anybody in their way, they did it to Kerry first then Edwards and now Obama. We have had their game figured out for a month and a half around here, what they were doing which a lot of us figured was playing for 2012. If Obama takes the nomination they WILL cross over to help McCain so that she can run again in 2012. It's the sad and ugly truth that even regular people like us can see-we are NOT as stupid as they wish we would be.
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Thanks!
I have really tried not to buy into the invective from either side and to be as fair minded as I can.

But I do think that Mrs. Clinton crossed a line when she essentially endorsed Mr. McCain over her own party.

I am disturbed by Mr. Obama's minister, but I can't say he's wrong, just perhaps a bit over the top in his delivery.

Crossing over to help McCain and the Republicans is over the line too, in my opinion. Another 4 years (or god forbid 8) of Bush & Co. would be a disaster!
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. OH and thanks for believing in John Edwards
who was MY hope since around 2002...I really though he would have made a great president-Obama is inspiring and he hasn't gone negative on Hillary-he has shown a lot of restraint there...
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you for all your hard work, Bettie. K&R
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
17. i keep hearing this too and have even said it myself (if Clinton gets it thru supers only)
but i don't actually think i'd go through with that.

even my family is pretty much Clinton supporters but all of us will vote for the nominee so far. even i've come around on this.
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
21. I can't speak for Clinton supporters.
But I'm not surprised by your experience, considering what I've read here.

It's easy to lose sight of the goal. We must not let McCain win.

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
22. Hearsay. nt
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Which is why I asked the question
I have only my own experience to go on and was curious as to whether this is a common feeling or simply an abberation among the Clinton supporters at the County Convention I was attending.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. In the real world, Democrats are 50/50 for Obama and Clinton.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:26 AM by onehandle
In the DU world, the results are skewed greatly in favor of Obama, and it is claimed constantly that Hillary supporters will not be faithful to the nominee.

You will only get skewed results as an answer. You'll have to go out on the street and ask the question.

This is Far from the real world.

On edit: I'm sorry, but I am forced to take such stories with a grain of salt.
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Thanks for the explanation
I had expected exactly what you said to be the case at my real life convention which is why I was so surprised by the attitudes there.

Frankly, I expected the Obama people to be more militant than they were and the Clinton people to be a little more relaxed than they were.

I would go out on the street and ask, but then all I'd get was people wondering who this crazy woman is conducting impromptu polls on streetcorners! :)
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. No, it sounds like a firsthand account to me, from an eyewitness. nt
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Sulawesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. Why keep supporting edwards at this point? An honest question from a BO supporter...
Your support as a delegate is very important to either side...
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. My hope is that by having a block of Edwards supporters
We can at very least have a bit of influence. Getting the nominee or either candidate to adopt even a few of Mr. Edwards ideas and ideals would mean a lot.

We discussed this in our group (20 people out of 80) and were in agreement that is it about the ideas and hoping that someone will take them seriously.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
30. People are identifying with their candidate.
It's an emotional, not a rational, attachment.

That said, it was pretty -- unwise -- of them to express that to you in person. It smacks of emotional blackmail IMO. Not a very good tactic.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. Well, good for the Edwards delegates
Maybe some of you will stick it out to cast a protest vote for Edwards in Denver. 43 of Kucinich's pledged 63 delegate did the same in 2004.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
36. Speaking for myself
Of course I'll vote for the nominee, although, living in MA, I don't really have to do that.

But I have to admit I'm not sure I'll do more than that, which is a departure for me. Here's why:

I have a mild dislike for BO himself, and think him woefully unqualified, which is maybe the source of my dislike. I've heard all the talking points and counter points, so don't bother flaming me with them. I don't like the campaign he's run, especially the attempts to paint the Clintons as racist; his words don't inspire me, having heard the exact words uttered previously by Deval Patrick; I was dismayed by his praise of Reagan and adoption of GOP talking points on SS; I don't like the talk about unity because I think there's no such thing with proto-fascists.

And the MSM press and the Leftwing radio and KO and others have treated Hillary so unfairly that it makes my blood boil, and increases my admiration for her strength.

All that being said, there's plenty I don't like about my candidate, and who knows, given time I may warm up to him.

However, I HATE many many many of his fucking supporters on this board and on others. Those that demean in the vilest manner not only Hillary but also anybody who voices a word of criticism. Yes, not all of them are like that, but so many are. The hatred, the meanness, the glee about any setback, the hysterical accusations of racism and dark conspiracies. I've been keeping a list of real assholes for the past few days, and I'm already up to 93 on the BO side and less than 6 on the other. I've been keeping another list of all those that say they'll never vote for HRC, and it's more even, but still a huge BO majority. Of course it may be that most of the HRC supporters have been chased off, and given that there are more BO supporters there are more BO assholes, but bottom line I hate many of you, and don't feel like working together with you in any way. You love him so much, you do the phone-banking and the donations and the canvassing. I'll be working on congressional races.


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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
37. The term is "Senator". For all candidates.
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. You're right
I guess I wasn't thinking about that. Sorry!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
40. in the words of Art and Paul "A man hears only what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 08:52 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
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Bettie Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I really don't think that I disregarded anyone in this case
I am neither an Obama or Clinton supporter.

I am speaking of my own experience at a county convention and I was truly saddened to hear what I did.

I am not a perfect person by any means, but I make an honest effort to be fair and to listen to different viewpoints.

I do see that some of the attacks on Sen. Clinton have been unfair. I also see that some of the criticisms have been, in my opinion, perfectly fair.

Same with Sen. Obama, some of the criticisms are unfair, some are totally on point.

Neither candidate is perfect but my negative experiences on this one day were limited to supporters of one candidate, this is what I was referencing.

Sorry if I offended you.

Bettie
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
45. I heard that from the beginning of the campaign from Obama and Edwards supporters
That they would NEVER vote for Clinton.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
48. Not hearing this at all in my neck of the woods
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:31 AM by guruoo
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NastyRiffraff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
49. I can't speak to what you experienced
But I can tell you that I've heard that from both sides, in the real world and on the Internet, DU included. I think (and hope) it's just the passions of the primaries and that most of these people will see that voting for McCain is counterproductive, to put it mildly.

I support Hillary, but I'll vote for Obama if he's the nominee. Hillary herself made it clear that she would support Obama if he wins, and that she'd also urge her supporters to do the same.
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nicknyc Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. ave anyone given a thought that many people who support Hillary
Have anyone given a thought that many people who support Hillary are centrist and not completely on the left or right side of this game.

Now, no phun intended but most of these centrist consider John Mccain to be closer than Obama hence willing to vote for John Mccain instead of Obama in GE.

Also, there are many hardcore Hillary supporters who will vote for Hillary or nobody or even john mccain just the way many obama supporters will do instead of supporting Hillary if she is the nominee.
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TriMetFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
55. I can't speak for them, but..................
a lot of those Clinton Democrats type that you speak of are Reagan Democrats. So get used to the idea that there will be a lot of Reagan Democrats that will cross the line and vote for McCain, and even more now with all of the hate white American shit from Obamas preacher. I plan on voting for Hillary in May here in Oregon, but if Obama wins the nomination I will vote for him holding my nose and closing my eye's and praying to God that this guy does not screw of the Nation even more if he wins.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
56. I support Obama: Were than any negative attitudes or comments from the Obama campaign? Do you think
...this might be more talk than action?

Thx
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baba Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
57. I don't understand this either!
I have heard people on both sides say they will vote for McCain if their chosen candidate doesn't get the nomination. This is crazy! We are Democrats first and foremost.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
62. NO! I WOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT VOTE FOR MCCAIN!
If Hillary loses I will happily switch my support to Obama, campaign for him, and do what I can to improve his chances of winning this fall.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
64. Count me among those
who will NOT vote for Obama if he is the nominee. I understand that roughly 25% of Clinton supporters share this view.

Although I respect Obama as a person, he is a freshman Senator with no executive, budgetary, or managerial experience. The only thing that he has ever been in charge of so far is a classroom. Neither race nor gender is an issue for me and I might very well someday support Obama if he later seeks a position for which he is adequately prepared.

Whether my vote would go to McCain or the Green Party candidate will depend on what kinds of concessions McCain makes in order to woo moderate Democrats and Independents, as he has promised to do.

What good does it do?

It might help keep the White House out of the hands of a blatantly underqualified candidate.

It might help to remind the Democratic Party, in the future, that nominating an underqualified candidate for the Presidency is unacceptable.

Better four years of McCain than four years under an unqualified Democrat, leading to a subsequent Republican backlash.
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Nobody here really gives a shit about some one who posts...
.."Better four years of McCain than four years..". Best pray you never meet me.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Actually, the poster's question was specifically about people
who would not support Obama if he were the nominee.

As for meeting you, I don't see that happening. I don't frequent nut houses.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. BTW
Recent polling data shows that only 81% of Democrats would vote for Obama over McCain while 88% would vote for Clinton over McCain. Neither candidate draws any signficant number of Republicans. Obama is doing slightly better overall against McCain nationally than Clinton (by 1-3 points in the most recent polls) because he outdraws her with Independents by a substantial margin.

For what it's worth, if Obama wins in November, it will be due to his appeal with Independents whereas, if Clinton wins, it will be due more to solid Democratic support. I don't claim that either of those patterns makes one of the candidates an inherently stronger candidate, but it does indicate that there are more Clinton supporters (like me) who will not back Obama than Obama supporters who will not back Clinton, as your experience suggested to you.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. Lincoln was a one term congressman and Hoover had a resume that was a mile long
Experience is a horrible indicator of how someone will do as President because there is absolutely nothing that can prepare someone for that job. To add to that, a lot of it has to do with the circumstances more than the person.

If you vote based on experience then you're voting based on a false sense of security.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #81
84. Experience is important.
There is nothing that can FULLY prepare one for the presidency because it is arguably the most difficult and most important job in the world. That still leaves a whole spectrum of possibilities between not remotely sufficient experience to well-prepared. Obama has never been in charge of anything more substantial than a classroom.

The reason that there is no simple, straight-forward correlation between experience and success as a President is because experience is only one of several factors contributing to a President's success. There are, however, clear examples of presidential failures that can be reasonably attributed to inexperience.

If experience means so little, why don't the parties just run Louie the Maintenance Man from Podunk?

You certainly have every right to decide for yourself that you will overlook Obama's dearth of high-level experience. I have observed in my professional career many instances in which inexperience was costly to job performance and will not ignore it in deciding for whom to vote.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Obama isn't the maintenance man from podunk, he was editor of the Harvard Law Review
I say that not because I'm trying to boast about his resume but because it demonstrates that he's an extremely intelligent and capable individual. Intelligence, unlike experience, is an important thing to consider and that is one of the reasons that George W Bush has been an awful president.

What you seem to have a problem with is that Obama hasn't spent enough time in the Senate, in the Cabinet, or as a Governor and frankly I think that those jobs don't do jack shit to prepare someone for the presidency and history has shown that.

Roosevelt did serve as Assistant Secretary of the Navy but other than that he spent most of his time in local politics and had only a brief stint as Governor much as Obama has. John Nance Garner was by all means the candidate who "knew how to pull the levers in Washington" having spent decades in Congress. But historians mostly agree that Garner would not have been able to make the changes necessary to address the depression and he would not have been able to unite the country like Roosevelt did.

Obama isn't going to be any more ready for the presidency after 6 more years in the senate than he is now. Going to committee meetings and voting simply doesn't prepare someone for that job.
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metalluk Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Success as a student in law school
is a far cry from the kind of experience that would make one prepared for the Presidency of the United States. There is no question that Obama is a bright man and that he was an excellent student. Hillary was valedictorian at her law school, but that means nothing in evaluating her as a candidate decades later.

Every class in the Harvard Law School has an Editor of the Law Review. Every graduating class in every University and Graduate School across the country has valedictorians. Every year, more than a few high school students score 800 on at SAT. Every year, quite a few college grads get perfect scores on a GRE. Perhaps we should go back to Obama's grades in high school or kindergarten in search of evidence of qualification for the Presidency.

Obama's resume consists of a two years at Occidental College in LA, a transfer to Columbia, and a B.A. degree in Political Science. He was a good student and something of a loner. Shortly thereafter, he attended Harvard Law School, where he earned a J.S. magna cum laude and was Editor of the Harvard Law Review, as you point out. He then worked in a low-level position as a community organizer, with some modest successes combined with some frustrations. He then took a job at the University of Chicago Law School, first as a visiting fellow and later as Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional Law. He taught there for ten years. During the last eight of those years, he served in the Illinois State Legislature, which is part-time work. In 2004, he was elected as a freshman Senator. In four years in the Senate, he has managed to attach a number of amendments to bills, but has not succeeded in getting passed a single major bill of his own. He came to national attention in 2004 by delivering an inspired speech at the Democratic National Convention. He has never had executive or managerial responsibility for anything larger than a classroom.

Obama would benefit more from some kind of significant executive role than by another six years in the Senate. On that much we agree.

The media frequently alludes to Obama's inexperience. Any reasonable person recognizes that it is so. If Obama wins the Democratic nomination, he will probably lose big in the fall. If, because of intervening events, he manages to win, he will be unsuccessful as a President and will be washed up by age fifty. If, instead, he had acquired the experience needed for success as a President, he might have been a very good one.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Previous executive roles still do not prepare one for the presidency
Reagan was Governor of California for years and when he got to the white house he just delegated everything and gave speeches and took naps. Mitt Romney campaigned on his "executive experience" as a Governor and CEO and it turned out he wasn't even capable of managing a campaign.

Bill Clinton had over a decade in the Governor's office in Arkansas and while I think he was a decent President, if you read any of the books written by his staffers they will tell you that the first weeks and months of his presidency were utter chaos and it was very difficult for anybody to get anything done.

Being President isn't about management like being a CEO is. It isn't the President's job to make sure that everything is functioning properly and that everything gets done. It is the Chief of Staff and his/her Deputies' job to do that. The presidency is almost entirely about decision making.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. Since Hillary already endorsed McCain, why is that a surprise?
Hillary is a devout warmonger and a fairly classless individual, so the people that would tend to support her must be from the same cloth...they'd vote for a pro-life warmonger since it appears they aren't very intelligent for the most part.

It's no surprise to me.


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lwcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
72. My experience has been the exact opposite
A week before I was going to vote for Edwards, he dropped out of the race.

One of the turn-offs to me about potentially moving my allegiance over to Obama was how many of his supporters publicly stated that they wouldn't vote for Hillary in the general election.

In fact, Obama himself seems proud of that:

I think there is no doubt that (Hillary Clinton) has higher negatives than any of the remaining Democratic candidates, that's just a fact. And there are some who will not vote for her. I have no doubt that once the nomination contest is over, I will get the people who voted for her. Now the question is, could she get the people who voted for me?


___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
73. bettie, it's kinda hard to like obama when he accuses HRC of
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:08 PM by BenDavid
playing the race card and then sits back on his ass and does not offer a word up in defending either clinton, Knowing damn well that neither clinton is a bigot or a racist, but it was allowed.

The truth is slowly coming out that it was obama and his surrogates in january and in south carolina that played the race card with the help of the whoremedia. This was the only way obama could gain the support of the black community in south carolina.....Now think a moment.....HRC had no reason to play the race card because in mid january she still had a good percentage of the black vote in south carolina. So there was no need too.....the only one that would benefit from this was obama.....

Now with the high preacher man with all his hate and bigotry and racism, it is appearent where obama and maybe even michelle got some of their views...It is easy for someone to condemn someone after all the crap hits the fan as obama has tried to do....but it is too late....

HRC was and is the only person that can and will defeat the republicans in november...she is the only one that will fight.....hell that is all most in here said they wanted after kerry lost the election his ass should have won.....and now you have a fighter in hrc and hey, if you wanna fight like a damn bear then hrc is your grizzley.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. LOL. Hillary's desperate, filthy smear campaign should just go unanswered, eh?
Typical republican campaigning from Clinton.

Smear your opponent, then cry like a baby when the opponent responds and plead for a "clean campaign."

Then do it all over again.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. Hey,Tabasco! SPOT-ON,Post!
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 05:14 AM by GalleryGod
Smear! CRY! SMEAR!

VICIOUS DIVISIVE BEYOTCH (the fighter) followed by
Victim! :nopity: Victim! :puke: oh, poor Victim!

Beneath Contempt?

"THE BIG GIRL" is beneath two, four letter words, that are most offensive to REAL WOMEN !











Fuque Her and the big white dawg "she rode in on" !
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inremembrance Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
75.  deja vu script rejected: Less experienced man undercuts more experienced woman to advance self
In talking to professional women in their 50's and older, many have a much strong negative reaction to Senator Obama than they have to any of the other male candidates who are more experienced. The reaction is so strong, I've heard many long time democratic women ask if they can vote for him in the general...

Why? I suspect that it's that: (1) Senator Obama tried to (and succeeded) in undercutting Senator Clinton's credibility,and (2) He used the race card but pinned it on the Clintons. But, it's something else too: It's the deja vu emotional script that most professional women lived: Younger, less experienced, charismatic man gets lots of attention...while he tries to elbow his way past the more experienced woman -- all the while undermining her. We get it, know what she's going through (because so many of us experienced this scenario), and will fight with everything we have on her behalf...... Another man, like Edwards, Gore, etc.... it wouldn't be the same script at all....but, this is script is personal.

In addition, in emphasizing his experience, Senator Clinton leaves open the door for him in the future (with more experience), whereas going after her credibility is way more undermining for her for the long-term.

In any event, the situation with his pastor may make this discussion moot....
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. So the "experience" canard is just accepted uncritically?
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 05:46 AM by dmesg
I don't find either candidate particularly "experienced" in any meaningful way.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. This bugs me enough to make me want to reply again
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 05:32 AM by dmesg
Look, I don't know where you think that's an indignity limited to women: that same damn thing happens to every single one of us, and the charismatic usurper is not always male. Come to think of it, I've never even had a male boss in 12 years of working, which may be why I've never understood the "old boys club" arguments.

Senator Clinton was elected to the Senate in a state she had a tenuous-at-best connection to running solely on her last name (this is not a jab at women; plenty of men have run solely on their last name too). I really don't see how she's in a position to complain about the fickleness of the mob.

Sadly, you said it right: "this is personal". This election needs to be bigger than whatever sense of personal validation a phalanx of Clinton supporters imagine they would feel at her election.
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jconner27 Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
76. Strange
I find all of this has become a very strange primary, believe it or not Obama followers I do like Sen.Barack Obama it's just you guys I hate not all of you just the D-bags. Last time I check we all are Democrats and we all want the same goal getting a Democrat elected. I admit I've gone overboard but I take offense when Dems use the other side shit to go after Hillary, and I don't like when Dems short changed another i.e. Hillary saying McCain was more qualifed than Obama. As for not voting for whom, have you not tuned into progressive radio shows for a week on Randi Rhodes' show half of the pro Obama callers said they won't vote for her, and Randi egged them on by using Rush's site as her research information. Or better yet take a good look at some of the Obama posters at the Daily Kos, hell go to Bartcop and he post the nasty shit Obama supporters have said. I'm a Clinton supporter and if she goes on to lose I will support the Dem ticket even tho I hate some of Sen.Obama supporters with a passion.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
83. The Obama people have only themselves to blame.
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 06:03 AM by Perry Logan
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