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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:44 PM
Original message
Anger versus Hatred
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:22 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
This has nothing to do with Barack Obama's fitness for office. This is just talking about what people are talking about here; quite tangential to primary politics.

______________________________

Many have posted here that Pastor Wright's rhetoric is that of righteous anger, not hatred. Having seen and read a bunch of this stuff, I can see that much of what Jeremiah Wright has to say that is inflammatory is motivated by righteous anger.

One of the rhetorical flourishes, however, haunts me and suggests something wrong in the man.

We all know that raped and murdered blond white girls dominate the news while raped and murdered black girls get little coverage. That's a valid social/racial observation, and a legitimate catalyst of righteous anger.

But why, in making that point, would one need to gratuitously intimate that those raped and murdered white girls were asking for it?

(From memory, so not likely to be letter perfect) "A thousand black girls are raped in Africa every day, but when Natalie Holloway goes to Aruba to give it up..."

That's not righteous anger. That's hate. There's a cruelty there... Natalie Holloway never did anything to Jeremiah Wright. I don't know of anything she ever did wrong except, apparently, be white and get murdered and be on the news. (And not be a virgin?) What do murdered, overlooked black girls gain from Holloway being cast as a slut?

it's the difference between Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton... the difference between "black people are paid 85 cents on the dollar compared to white people" and "black people are paid 85 cents on the dollar compared to white people, and you know those white people just spend that extra 15 cents on liquor."

Do white people need to be denigrated to uplift black people? Is human dignity a zero-sum game?

I'm not feeling the love. Give me Jackson and Obama and Lewis. Sharpton and Wright... no thanks.

I suspect it does a disservice to many great black moral leaders for Wright to be cast as typical of the black religious community. And I readily concede the possibility that Wright was once a greater man than who we see in these clips, and that the man Barack came to love was a less contemptuous man. Wright is old now, and age is not always kind.

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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stunning. nt.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. In the grand scheme of things
As a white person, I really don't feel all that oppressed by the occasional angry comment about the people of my race. I really think it's a thimble in the ocean compared to what others face on a daily basis. That said, I know that many other caucasians go through life oblivious to their skin color privilege and will readily suck up the persecution memes ladeled out by the RW media. It's just sad to see progressives here doing it too.
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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Equality is a TWO-WAY Street: Either Nobody Should Call Anybody Pejoratives-OR- Free-4-All Rules...

Equality is a TWO-WAY Street: Either Nobody Should Call Anybody Pejoratives -OR- Free-4-All Rules... Should Apply and Everybody Gets to Call Anybody Anything They Want.

Anyone who doesn't think that calling someone a honky in a black neighborhood, creates as much hatred for a white person -- a human being -- than call someone creates for a black person -- a human being -- in a white neighborhood is just plain stupid.

Equality means no one is "more equal" or treated better than anyone else to make up for wrongs so far in the past, that no one who actually suffered those wrongs directly is still alive, and no one gets the tables tipped in either direction.




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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. No, I prefer to put things in perspective.
And because I can't put into the kind of words that would do it justice, I will leave you with this very succinct and eloquent essay by a guy named Tim Wise.

A Look at the Myth of Reverse Racism

Recently, when speaking to a group of high school students, I was asked why I only seemed to be concerned about white racism towards people of color. We had been discussing racial slurs, and a number of white students wondered why I didnt get as upset about blacks using terms like honky or cracker, as I did about whites using words like nigger.

Although such an issue may seem trivial in the larger scheme of thingsespecially given the more significant discussions about racism in the educational system that I had hoped to engage in that daythe challenge posed by the students was actually an important one. In fact, it allowed a discussion about the very essence of what racism is and how it operates.

On the one hand, of course, such slurs are quite obviously inappropriate and offensive, and ought not to be used. That said, I pointed out that even the mention of the words honky and cracker had elicited laughter; and not only from the black students in attendance, but also from other whites.

The words are so silly, so juvenile, so utterly pathetic that they hardly qualify as racial slurs at all, let alone slurs on a par with those that have been historically deployed against people of color.

more
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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. I Don't Need Tim Wise's Perspective, Have My Own. And It's Mine Because I've Lived It...
I Don't Need Tim Wise's Perspective, Have My Own. And It's Mine Because I've Lived It...

Do you see my signature? It's about the stupidity and injustice and utter futility of substituting one tyranny for another.

You are never going to solve all racism, by allowing all epithets and pejoratives to flow in one direction in hopes of evening some score.

The way to stop racism is to just plain stop it wherever it lies.


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redstate_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. "wrongs so far in the past, that no one who actually suffered those wrongs directly is still alive"
Really? Ask my mother and father. Ask my grandparents. They were alive during Jim Crow.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Pretty bad
Gratuitously vicious. It is possible to make those very same points Wright wants to make without being so vile. If he made the comments without the unnecessary cruelty many if not most here on DU would be saying Amen.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes, I'd expect 100% of DU agrees the "missing white girl" TV phenomenon is groteque
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Yeah, I kind of agreed with the "missing white girl" thing he said.
But I doubt whether she wanted to be abducted (or killed or whatever happened to her.)
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You doubt she wanted to be abducted (or killed or whatever happened to her.)
:puke:
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
38. BUT, the greater issue is..
IF Obama is the nom...Do not think they won't squeeze every bit they can from this one statement...Holloway was in the new for months and felt in the hearts of many.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. This isn't 2004. The issues are going to be extremely urgent.
Gas prices are super high, the war is draining the economy. All of these things can be felt by the average citizen now, whereas in 2004 the bubble set-up by BushCo was still running and gave the false impression of stability. Superficial shit like Natalie Holloway will be blown aside.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. But the hateful and cruel way he makes his point
speaks volumes.

destroys it and incites resentment and does nothing to unite and reach across divides and etc.)
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. he is, don't forget,
every bit as human as you and I.

Have you ever said something in anger and frustration that was unkind and uncomfortable?

His words were hard, and angry. I don't believe that Natalie herself, the individual would have engendered the same kind of comment. The media is not the best influence on any of us. It encourages sensationalizing everything. As evidenced by the way Rev. Wright is being crucified by it- as are BOTH of our candidates.

When we eat it up, and spread it's poison around, we share ownership with it.

peace~
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. Sure I have. But not from the pulpit.
That's toxic.

Bake
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. doesn't matter where it comes from- people in the pulpit are still people
and not perfect.

Anyone who looks to a pulpit for their supreme guidance has made a god out of a human.

That is toxic- even when the 'human' seems to be 'benign'.


peace~
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. You can't have this guy Wright as a personal religious leader for over a decade
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 PM by billbuckhead
You can't have this guy Wright as a personal religious leader for over a decade and not know that he was a bigot. It speaks volumes about what Hillary's opponent is really all about that he still goes to this over the top evil church.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Have you read anything about that church??? it is not evil...it has
done some great things...please read a little..
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Indeed it has.
There's no need to denigrate the totality of Trinity UCC.

Nor a need to defend ever aspect of it.

I've been thinking about the Nation of Islam recently, and noting that though I don't like NOI, at the same time I cannot say the Nation has done more harm than good.

Not everything is simple.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
52. .
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Saying Natalie Holloway had it coming is evil
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. OJ did some nice things too.
by the way...I was an OJ sympathizer and loved Johnnie Cochran...hated Marsha Clark. I've since changed my mind and think the guy is a bastard.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
48. I'm sure Farrakhan has done some good things too
But he's radioactive, and so is Wright.

Bake
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. kicky
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Do white people need to be denigrated to uplift black people?"
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:15 PM by goodgd_yall
That thought came to mind as I listened to one of his sermon excerpts. I understand (and even share) some of the anger and agree with some of what he says, but I don't like the way Wright gets his message across. The tactic of putting down one group to uplift another is something I've always disrespected.

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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. goodgd_yall, I Agree. And Thank You. !:) [NT]
NT
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
and other cliches of that ilk.


they are true though
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yup... that's what makes them durable enough to become cliche
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. no, indeed not- but it is a very human trait, and one
that is hard to conquer.

We see that right here on DU GDP constantly. How many posts against Hillary or Obama are made to advance "my candidate" by trashing "yours"?

It isn't a good way to operate, but it is very common.

peace~
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. And I remember my 12th birthday
my bestest friend in the world was Sandra. Man, she was cool! She would help me with my math.Id help her with spelling words..OOOO I hated Math. We walked home from school every day, and visited each other's homes. Her parent's den was like their escape place..there were proud AA pictures, music that I love to this day was played in that room(Isley Bros, 70s R and B)..I loved going to her house.

So, I had a slumber party. Sixth grade. I invited about 15 girls. 3 showed up.

My Mom and Dad told me, years later, why practically no one came..."It's that black girl..we simply can't have our girl at a sleepover with a black child attending." They told me that about five parents told them something along those lines..This was Central Texas mind you...mid seventies.

I remember me at her house, we put on some white face cream, and laughed at how goofy yellow our teeth looked against the white white background. We must have laughed in that mirror forever!

Last I heard, she was married with kids, just like me. I can't find her, but I do remember her, and love her to this day. We would braid each other's hair(OUCH!), and laugh about how different our hair felt. She called me 'pink with freckles'. I am too! lol...

Too bad that kind of innocence isn't the norm, in 2008; just too damn bad. just so so sad.

I hope Im not ranting. Just sharing.




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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Good share!
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. great story
n/t
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Thanks for sharing that nice story.
You ought to try to find her from the white pages. I just used it to successfully find and old friend.
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. dadgummit she is married now
so it becomes difficult with her last name! I guess I could try brothers though, she had two. Her parents are dead though. Dayam.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Good thinking. You should be able to find her brothers and they could
give you her address. Good Luck! Wouldn't she be surprised to hear from you out of no where.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. You're doing beautifully. Thank you for a lovely and bittersweet story.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. By the way, I was very relieved by the ending of your story
Because the OP is about murdered girls, I was filled with fear when I started reading about your friend, because I wasn't sure she'd make it through the story!

So thanks for the uplift.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. I take it none of y'all have ever seen a DU thread
about Ms. Holloway. Especially when it was all over the media...far worse things were said here, and often. Don't be so shocked.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. But I assume (hope?) nobody looks to DU for spiritual guidance
If so, they may be in for a rude shock in the after-life!
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Noooooo
Not at all. It's just political junkiness here, lol.

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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Ha! No!
:rofl:

I was really more addressing the outrage over this particular comment. While yes, it's more shocking to hear it coming from a religious leader, some of our fellow progressives happen to hold similar viewpoints on the topic. I'm not one of those people though, violence against women is always tragic, regardless of the circumstances.

I think that Wright was making a point, albeit in a poor way. Media attention to the point of saturation about one American person, while thousands of people in Africa in similar situations get no media coverage at all.

:hi:
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. agreed
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Anger is what my side has; hatred is what yours does
Pride is what we feel; bigotry is what they feel. Self-defense is what our aggressions are; theirs are attacks. Mine are beliefs; theirs are fantasies.

Ill-mannered behavior by the downtrodden is always justifiable.

Love for one's candidate excuses all because it comes from hope and optimism; others don't really love their candidate like we do and it's hatred of ours and envy of our joyous transcendance.

It's all very simple; to riff on an old saying: Clintonistas are dog-eat-dog, whereas Obamatrons are the other way around.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
42. you make a very good and important point-
perspective is relative.

:hi:

peace~
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
51. Very nice: "Clintonistas are dog-eat-dog; Obamatrons are the other way around"
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indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
36. A___men!
Well stated! bravo!
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
37. can you address the way
Jessica Lynch was covered, compensated, and idolized for her experience in Iraq with what has happened to Shoshanna Johnson?

Shoshana was one of five soldiers in the 507th Maintenance Company captured when the caravan of armored vehicles in which she was traveling made a wrong turn into a deadly ambush by Iraqi insurgents that killed nine members of her unit in March 2003.

Two other female soldiers also were captured, Lynch and Pfc. Lori Ann Piestewa, who did not survive her injuries.

Shoshana was shot through both legs. Her return home lacked the fanfare and media hype that Lynchs return received. Also, Lynch was discharged with an 80 percent disability benefit. Johnson originally got a 30 percent disability benefit from the army for her injuries.

Many cried racism. Shoshana said its just a fact of life in America that white blondes get more attention than black women, and added that there has never been any competition or animosity between herself and Lynch.

In the book, Shoshana was to detail her life; her young adulthood, the ambush, her captivity and her injuries, her disability, her ongoing emotional trauma, her post-Iraq day-to-day life and the latest about her family.

Shoshana, who is Catholic, said that in addition to wanting her to sensationalize things, Kensington wanted the book to have a religious focus and wanted her to preach, something else she was unwilling to do.

She says the most important message she wants people to get from her book is to be grateful for what they have, particularly friends and family.

Unfortunately, the other publishers her agent has approached with the book dont seem interested.

I wonder why?

Jessica Lynchs story was worth a million dollars. Shoshana Johnsons nothing?

I hope thats not true and theres a publisher willing to prove it.

Posted by rswan@pbpost.com at April 24, 2007 4:52 PM




This prejudice runs far deeper than most people want to admit or address.

I don't take Wright's insensitive comment about Natalie to be hate- I see and share his incredible frustration- and perhaps misdirected disgust at the over the top- 24/7 + coverage and media orgy/obsession that accompanied her sad story.
The same for the story of "Anna Nicole Smith"- Chandra Levy, Elizabeth Smart, and countless others. Sometimes it is hard to seperate the obnoxious media blitz, with the human being that is at the center of the storm. The individual, and the tragedy becomes lost in the mess of media.


peace~
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. I doubt anyone here questions the reality of the "imperiled white girl" media fixation
And any criticism of that unjust reality should be directed at the media.

Jessica Lynch didn't ask to be injured and captured, and Jessica Lynch did everything she could to share focus with Shoshanna Johnson, a good friend.

There would be a meanness to discussing the Johnson/Lynch disparity by describing Lynch as an air-head who took a wrong turn got herself captured... that would be simple cruelty and contempt directed against the one person in the world least responsible for the media problem.

Natalie Holloway would rather be alive than be on TV. She's not an attention seeking slut, she's a corpse.

Cruelty and hate often arise from legitimate frustrations. Many people bigoted against Mexicans have trouble finding work, or have low wages. Their frustration is valid, but that doesn't justify directing it at Mexicans.

If one's beef is with CNN, then talk about CNN.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. Yes, the rhetoric about Natalie Holloway was reprehensible.
That was a terrible thing to say, especially from a church pulpit.

I also agree with your 'zero-sum game' comment. It is not at all helpful in the grand scheme of things.


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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. your picture
and quote made me cry and angry at the same time.

You are an artist Swampy.

:hi:

peace~
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Thank you!
:cry: :hug:



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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
44. IIRC, NH hasn't fared too well on DU, either.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:45 AM by WinkyDink
Being just another MWG, and all.
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