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Honest Exercise: Can Anyone Come Up With Anything That Could Be Used Against Hillary In The GE

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:06 PM
Original message
Honest Exercise: Can Anyone Come Up With Anything That Could Be Used Against Hillary In The GE
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:07 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
by the GOP, that would come anywhere near close to having the ability to cause as much damage as this Wright thing (and other sub contexts) could?

I really want to know. This thing has brought a huge liability to the Obama campaign as it relates to the GE. It's given the GOP every weapon they could've possibly ever asked for. They will use it, and they will use it repeatedly. That much is certain. What we don't know is when they do, how many voters at THAT time will allow themselves to be affected by it, and if that would be enough to catapult McCain to victory (and don't fool yourselves. It very well could). But what I'm curious about, is if there is anything anyone here could objectively think about that the GOP could use with as powerful an impact as this Wright issue. They have attacks for her, for sure. But anything that even comes close to the risk that Obama now carries?

For example: Right out of the gate, I believe that Obama is carrying with him an 8 on a scale of 10 liability, meaning severity of attack the GOP could use. That's right out of the gate. We may be nominating a candidate for the GE that arrives at the starting line with an 8 on the scale of 10 able to be used repeatedly attack waiting for him. Does Hillary have any like that?

And this is a sincere question, so please answer in a civil manner and with genuine intent, even if you disagree. I've had a pit in my stomach over this since yesterday, and I still can't shake the feeling that this could be very bad for us in the GE. We only have ONE chance to send a candidate to the GE who can win, and we best think strong and hard about that before doing so. At the end of it all, it's winning in November that matters more than all else, period. We have to make sure the strongest candidate we got is there.

So we can all be certain that the SD's are weighing all of this. Inherent risks that will be brought to the starting line will be part of their thought process for sure. So I want to see if we can predict what some of those discussions might be like. So when weighing the two, can any of you come up with Hillary liabilities that would be equivalent in risk factor or close enough?

Thanks in advance, and thanks to all who engage in this exercise fairly and with genuine intent.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. what's in her tax returns?
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. And Earmarks, her WH Papers, and Bill's Donor Lists.
All very shady.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
58. That's old. How about something new?
Like Monica maybe.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
148. Oh, right, because you live in a magical world where old smears are not effective
:eyes:

There's a cottage industry of books attacking both Clintons' credibility. They'll rev back up and find even more shady crap they've done in the past 8 years, plus re-hashing all the stuff from the 90's. Say hello to Travelgate II: The Revenge.
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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #58
195. Wow...
Is this thread confusing to you? Is there a statute of limitations to smears? By the time of the GE the Wright story will be 'old'.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
214. unless McCain releases his, that would be a non-issue n/t
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, there is VERY, VERY strong evidence that Hillary is
married to Bill CLinton!
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. LOL
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
83. Link please.
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bilgewaterbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
96. "The First Black President"??
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. the Clinton donors are a major issue
and I know from a friend at the RNC that they're sitting on scandals about Bill Clinton having additional affairs.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. But Those Would Be Like Maybe A 3 On A Scale Of 10. Just Standard Typical Dirty Tricks.
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I think if there was another sex scandal, that could be proven, that was
tied to Bill, it would be the end for her. The country does not want to go there again, under any circumstances.

That said, I don't know if there is one or not. So it's pure speculation.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. exactly. It brings up Clinton fatigue of the 90s and elects McCain
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
41. I think the problem with using "Clinton Fatigue"
in the GE will be that McCain has now been endorsed by Bush and pledges to continue in Iraq. THAT could be argued to be "Bush Fatigue."
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #41
76. he can say Hillary flip-flopped on Iraq because she supported war
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I Disagree On That. But To Each Their Own I Guess.
I've realized for quite some time they'd drag out shit like that, but I really can't see it being used all that effectively nor having a really impactful ad made from it. I also think she'd be able to overcome it quite easily.
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. The thing is, it wouldn't need an ad. Look at the Spitzer thing. Granted, he
was breaking the law, but I think it would create the same feeding frenzy. That coverage is still going on. It took less than a week of media coverage of the Swiftboaters to have that everywhere and take down Kerry.

I don't think sex should be a deal killer, but I think that the general public would punish her this time.

BTW - I love being able to disagree so agreeably. Thank you.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
80. exactly. It may make people ask why she's allowing Bill to cheat
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. I don't think most people care.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
119. monica was not the first
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:09 PM by earthlover
this is ONE of the reasons many find Hillary's enabling behavior troubling. Many of us would have thrown a lying cheating lout out of the house over less

what many find troubling is whether she went along because doing so was more in her political interests. They find it hard to see how a wife, especially one so intelligent and forward thinking, could put up with this baloney from a sexist pig who uses women and uses his wife
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CatsDogsBabies Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #119
213. I hate to
say this, but I am sure that part of the reason HRC has stayed with WJC is her own political ambitions. I don't think anything is wrong with this, nor am I saying this is the only reason she stayed with him. I am okay with people having mixed motives, not a purist like many of the people here. But, do people think she would have been the presumptive candidate if she had divorced WJC?
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
113. Hey....it does NOT have to be proven! It could be totally made up...People would BELIEVE IT
All the Repukes have to do is invent a totally fictional sex scandal about Bill. Hill will deny it. Bill will say it depends on what is is. And everyone will believe it. Even if Bill doesn't parse the language, which he may or may not do, depending on what the meaning of parse is.

Fact is enough people would believe it, that the story would have legs. It doesn't have to be remotely true.
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #113
117. Thank you!!! That is what I have trying to get across!
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Bill Clinton cozying up to and complimenting a dicatator is 3/10? Really?
There is also a lot of stuff they attacked Clinton on during his White House years. Masses of questionable financial activities. They can do a great job of making McCain look more honest and more interested in reducing inefficient government spending. And Hillary is an extremely divisive figure who is the only politician in the race that can unite the conservative base (so we won't be seeing a depressed republican turnout if Hillary is in the race, much less the fact that almost half the population would not vote for her).

All that together is a lot worse than Wright.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. If You Don't Think This Recent Wright Issue Would Unite The Conservative Base, Then I Really Want
some of what you're smoking. Seriously.

And how bout coming up with things on Hillary? Last I checked, Bill's not running, even though you all seem to be fixating your responses on him.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. I honestly think many evangelicals will understand not believing everything a preacher says
And there is no way the Wright issue can compare to the hatred for the Clintons.

And if you think Hillary AND Bill Clinton aren't going to both be attacked, you are wrong. It is ridiculous for you to propose that Obama will be attacked on the Wright issue, but Hillary won't be attacked about her husband's actions. Bill Clinton is a much more potent issue to conservatives than Wright, that's a no-brainer.

And most any financial oddity with Bill is one with Hillary because they file taxes jointly and are otherwise intimately connected together.

There's a decent to very good chance Wright will blow over, but zero chance that the Clinton legacy will. Even if Wright sticks, it is unlikely to increase the negatives of Obama to nearly the same level as Hillary's, and Obama has a decent chance of getting some of the Evangelical vote despite Wright (Hillary has none, even though evangelicals are not married to the policies of the right).
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Totally Disagree.
There is no way in hell this Wright thing won't be used, and used EXTENSIVELY, in the GE. That's a fact. Combined with the flag pin incident, hand over heart incident, the incident over his wife's comments, and other things, it is almost a perfect smear campaign for them. Almost perfect.

And I do know they'll attack Bill and I'm aware of the financial issues. But I don't think any of them would truly resonate in the minds of the every day voter, nor leave the lingering impression anywhere near of what the Obama propaganda could.
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Drachasor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #52
85. We'll know within a week or three how much Wright matters
If it largely disappears, then it won't have much of an effect on the general election. Right now it certainly doesn't have any kind of effect like Hillary's large negatives and how she brings the conservative base together. While I can't be sure Wright won't do that, you certainly can't be sure that it will (especially since by the time the GE comes around, all this will be old news that Obama dealt with directly and openly -- unlike many of the things regarding Hillary and Bill Clinton).
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
132. Already about half of potential voters would never vote for Hillary....
Her negatives are already that high.

Hillary is a known quantity. That is a disadvantage. Every reminder of previous scandals will only take a reminder. People already have their minds made up about hillary.

If half of the democrats do the dirty work of the republicans for them and give some credibility to challenging Obama on Wright, maybe this issue could have some legs. But not without help from the Democrats. If the reps tried to use it, it would seem silly. What we have here is half of the democrats actually giving some credibility to this issue that otherwise would not have much.

I don't think this is about November at all! I think this has more to do with PA.
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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
70. Obama's pastor isn't running either
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Umbram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
197. "Unite The Conservative Base" - Eh, conservatives are positively rabid Clinton haters.
Hillary in the GE is all the get out the vote motivation that conservatives need.

Honestly, I would guess Obama post Wright and Clinton are on even footing as far as conservative scorn goes.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
61. Actually sex scandals are a 10
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. Don't you think that could backfire?
Bringing up Bill Clinton's affairs? People would say "it's Hillary who's running, not Bill." And I think independents would agree with that, although RWingers will love to throw any mud they can, even if it's a candidate's relative.
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. I think the Clintons implied "two-fer" campaign as well as Bill's
prominence in news cycles will make it difficult to ignore him. I think he's made himself a shadow candidate. People are sick of this kind of stuff and I don't think he'll be given a pass on it.
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. they probably will find and talk to Bill's recent girlfriends nt
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. If it's Hillary vs McCain
McCain will run as the anti lobbyist transparent candidate, and I'm afraid enough people will swallow it. She refused to stop taking contributions from lobbyists and then there's the whole tax thing, even if she's clean, the delays will be used against her.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. I would like to see her earmarks myself
But I don't expect that there will be much there other than politics as expected. And there is no requirement, so they won't be released if there are strong negatives there.

I think that such a great deal has been covered in the past, to the extent that even things that should be negative are such old and tired news they will get no traction with the media or the public.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. The donor list is deadly...Bill owes favors to the Saudi Royal family, Dubai
the Kazahkstani dictator, and those are just what we know from what has been reported.

Knowing the GOP, the Clintons will be painted as corrupt, unpatriotic and a national security risk since they are protecting the identities of their foreign benefactors.

They won't even need to go near the sex.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
104. Thats much bigger than Rev. Wright. nt
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
189. Bingo - I Think McCain Would Be Happy To Use This One nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not to scandal monger on this, because it would go against my principles, I do think that...
Huma Abedin will be looked at very hard by the media.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Every scandal from the '90s will be dragged out.
And you know that's true.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Those are all very minor compared to this. People just don't seem to have a
grasp on how explosive this issue is.
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. It's only a big deal to you Hillary supporters
who don't care about really winning in Nov.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No, it is a huge deal to all of the swing voters and independents that have
supposedly flocked to Obama.
At best he can hope to win 50+1 .... no huge coalition or landslides will be coming for Obama.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. You're Dead Wrong.
I care as much or more as everyone here about winning in November. That's all that matters. If anything, I've seen far more Obama supporters forsake the November chances merely for their sports team like mentality. We should look at this like adults and objectively. We should really put some deep thought into which of the two candidates will enter the GE the most wounded. Based on your defensive and unfair response, I'd say you haven't yet done so.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
134. Fact of the matter, the Repukes don't even have to swift boat Hillary!
All they have to do is remind voters of about 100,000 memes about her that have already been firmly planted.

She can't win by just getting the voters who voted for kerry subtracted by a large amount of AA voters because of obvious reasons. She has to expand the kerry base. Obama could easily do that with the independents, youth, AA vote, crossover appeal, etc. Obama would EXPAND the electorate instead of fighting over the same sized pie. Hillary can't do that. If she gets the nod, it is going to be because of smoke filled rooms....and the hordes of new voters, most of them will stay home in november. AAs are already turned off by the race baiting queen. Add to this the polls showing Hill's negatives, the numerous things that could be brought up about her and her husband,and the fact that many independents just don't like her....not scientific but real....and you just don't have a recipe for electoral success.

Is this all the Obama bashers can find to trash him? If so, he is home free.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
82. Ken Starr spent $75 million of our money digging for dirt on Hillary and he came up EMPTY handed
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 08:18 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. It doesn't make any difference. They would use it anyways, regardless
of the fact they were not guilty. Most people do not realize it.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. whoah you need to jump back into the real world...you're funny
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. No! You have to get back into the real world!
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
14. Good question but
I don't think anyone here has any independent reporting or research. Who knows what's out there? And nobody in the MSM is gonna care much about Hillary as long as Obama's on top. And he is.

Btw, I really like some of your recent posts even though I'm an Obama supporter.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Considering the Wright thing is a non starter
Yes, plenty.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. You Can't Possibly Believe That. n/t
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. What that the wright thing is a non starter
or that Hillary has dirt?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
55. That The Wright Thing Is A Non Starter.
Personally, it is by far the most powerful weapon given to the GOP machine yet for use in the GE. I hope you realize that.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. I doubt it
My pastor gavea sermon and used electricity as an anology in the sermon. She was wrong on about every electrical "fact" she mentioned. That doesn't mean that everyone in the congregation with an electronics background had to get retrained, or turn in their Engineering diplomas. It just meant she should probably stay away from doing any electrical work herself.

If we need to talk associations that mean something, I am much more concerned with incompetents like Wolfson, Penn, and Ickes holding important White House staff positions, than someone who used to preach at a church where Obama doesn't live much of the year.

There are legitimate reasons to vote or to not vote for Obama. This does not rise to either category.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. The GOP doesn't need anything on Hillary
They already hate her, as they have done for 16 years, and they will never, ever vote for her under any circumstances.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I'm Not Much Concerned With Who GOP'ers Will Vote For. That Much Is Already Clear.
What I am concerned with, is everyone else.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. I live in Democratic northern Minnesota and I know that those voters
who deserted us in 2000 and 04 will take very little to be reminded of the sex scandals. As to what I think they will bring up in Clinton vs. McCain: Experience. 1st Lady vs. War Hero. It will not be fair but what makes you think any of this is going to be fair. Also I do not think this preacher thing is going to be such a big deal in November - they have their own preachers to worry about.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
155. Yea, that makes so much sense, cause of course Obama
just got so much experience.
Jeez.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #155
177. I didn't say he had a lot of experience. They will both be hit with this
problem. I for one do not think experience is that important. I would rather trust in intelligence, empathy, courage and integrity. That is the experience I want to have in my leaders.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. The GOP are undoubtedly in their secret laboratory as we speak
cooking up something. I can't name anything specifically, but I'm sure they'll think of something.

In the interest of full disclosure though, I don't think the Wright thing is anywhere near as bad as a lot of people seem to think it is. I doubt it will have much a life beyond Tuesday. It's bad for Obama, and it's certainly a hit, but I don't think it's the game-changer it's being made out to be, and the fact that he's addressing it immediately and often is good.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
66. A lot won't but I know some McCain haters that are for Hillary
They think that McCain is such a Liberal they may as well vote Democratic (I know, but what can you expect from a GOPer), and Hillary impressed them as the tougher during the debates. There are others that prefer Obama, but this would bring them back into the fold like lightening.

Anyway, if Barack gets all the lunatic rightwing hatred, Hillary will look better to those many that for the first time in their lives are considering Democrats after the Bush disaster.

Of course, at least it's coming out now, so perhaps it will be neutralized by the GE, but to my mind, BO's explanation that he didn't know is hard to swallow.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #66
78. Well, the McCain haters are a demographic that are a total mystery to me
I can't predict their behavior at all. But if I had to bet money on it, I would bet that they would hold their nose and vote for him against HRC. Either that or they just might not vote.

This is not to say that they would necessarily vote for Obama either.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #78
95. The ones I know were actually donating money to HRC
But they were bitterly disappointed a few days ago because she came across as sympathetic to illegal immigrants.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #95
129. Republicans are always enraged over completely trivial bullshit. n/t
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #129
198. Yes, they are truly the
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 01:14 AM by Kool Kitty
"make a mountain out of a molehill" bunch. It won't matter who wins the Democratic nomination, they will lie and smear and take words out of context, you know the drill. What's the Mark Twain quote-"A lie gets around the world before the truth puts its shoes on" or something like that. (Sorry-old and tired brain tonight.) There may be more to Hillary than we know, but I can't think of anything offhand. I wish the Dems would go after the barking mad preachers that have endorsed McCain with half as much energy as the MSM has been going after Obama.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #198
201. Indeed.
That's what I've been saying all along. It doesn't matter if our nominee is absolutely squeaky clean or is a multiple felon. The Republicans will turn the smear machine on, turn it up to 11, and shower our nominee with a tsunami of smears and feces that is designed to leave nothing but a smoking crater.

The fact that they were able to turn Al Gore into a horrible liar and John Kerry into a faker of war wounds goes to show that they've never been concerned with inconvenient things like facts when smearing an opponent. If anything, I think they stay away from facts entirely, because they may turn out to be obstacles to creating the perfect, most pristine smear they can come up with.
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. Ding!
Exactly right. They can just rehash the same tired talking points they have used against her and her husband for the last 16 years and it'll be enough to get the GOP base to show up to vote against her.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. They don't even need to rehash anything.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Republican voters would happily crawl naked over ten miles of broken glass to vote against another Clinton. They can't wait.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. Of Course!
Every rumor there ever was about our candidate, however unsubstantiated, will be dragged out and turned into front-page news.

Meanwhile, everything about the Keating 5 and the like will be considered "old news" and ignored by the media.

That is how the Repiggies win elections.



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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Such As?
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
146. Such as the way they "Swift-Boated" John Kerry
They could never find anything on Kerry because there was never anything to find and they knew there never would be.

So they made up stuff.


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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #146
193. One sad irony of the "swiftboat" bs is that it was 35 or so years old.
John O'neill was the hit man set up by Nixon/Colson et al to destroy Kerry way "back in the day".
Sometimes a very old story can have new life.

Like a remake of a very old and very bad movie.
Heck, I had to explain the "Hillary is a murderess" BS along with the "Obama=Muslim" BS in the same conversation. These emails never die. Like Cheney as xombie, if that is not redundant. ;)

so let's be prepared to fight for our nominee, whether Hillary or Barack.
I have already voted, and my power to do much at this point is very limited WRT primaries.
We shall see what happens.
One thing we DO know - the GOP are as ruthless and cunning as they are clueless and non-empathetic.

Crusades! Christian jihad! Maverick! Must respect the war hero (THIS time)!
All the old hits just keep on coming.

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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. I just WISH that Candidates and their supporters
would stick with the issues, and not puke up all this other garbage.
I don't CARE about Ferraro or Bill or any of that.
I do understand each candidate's liabilities..and yeah it's been a rough week for Obama, whom I support.
Who knows what next week will bring.

Btw, you are always very fair here in GDP. I try to be, but I guess we all get carried away.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. I Wish The Same. If Only, Right?
Unfortunately, we still have quite a fickle and non thinking public that blows with the wind. I wish they'd focus strictly on issues and not the tabloid garbage, but I know we're just not there yet. Not this election cycle anyway.
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. It is unfortunate. It sure is...
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
73. "I wish they'd focus strictly on issues and not the tabloid garbage" -- you crack me up
you say this and then I look at the link at the bottom of your postings.

L O L.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
86. What Are You Talking About?
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
162. "OBAMA CAUGHT CONSPIRING ON VIDEO "
There's nothing tabloid about that link title.
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. It's Rick Astley.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. yes, I am aware.
It was just funny to read the juxtoposition of mindcrimes statement with the link below.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Why? If It Was Real I'd Understand Your Point. Since It Isn't, Your Reply Makes No Sense.
Wishing things weren't tabloid politics doesn't mean the inability to recognize that currently things are that way, and that to get people to fall more my rick roll that's a good thing to feed them. Sheesh. lol.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #168
178. It's cute, I get it. You are very clever.
I'll repeat that I thought it was just funny that you had that link below what you were saying, regardless of what it linked to.

But you can continue to protest whatever I'm suggesting if you like.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #162
167. Oh That? That's Just A Rick Roll ROFLMAO!!!!
Man I wish you had clicked on it. hehehe
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
23. Her war vote and faith in GW is enough.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. You Think The GOP Can Use Her War Vote Against Her? How Could They Possibly Do Such A Thing?
You think they could use her faith in GW doing the right thing against her? How could they possibly do such a thing?

Your reply makes little sense.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Those things will keep her from beating McCain...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:37 PM by polichick
...along with her high negatives.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Why Is There Any Reason To Believe They Would?
I was asking for attacks the GOP could use against her. They couldn't use either of those things.

Obama supporters have tried to use those things repeatedly, and they are still practically neck and neck. So when it's GE time, and there aren't members of OUR OWN PARTY trying to slander her, I fail to see how those two points you raised could possibly reach the scale of this Wright incident, with all due respect.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
77. GOP attacks don't matter when you put up a candidate that isn't as popular...
...with indies as theirs is, and has strikes like voting for the war and enabling Bush against her with members of her own party. Dems can only win with a significant turn-out AND the votes of independents and some Republicans.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
64. Flip Flopper, she was for the war before she was against the war
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. Though petty they will use this kind of stuff. From Snopes. Hillary
arrived late and made the troops wait. OMG!! Then she cut in line!!!11!!! Partial truth.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/chowdown.asp
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. Are you kidding?
- Tax returns. Slimy financial dealings.
- Senate earmarks. Quid pro quo for corporate donations.
- Library donor records. Quid pro quo for political favors.
- White House records. Revealing Hillary's "extensive experience" as First Lady is a bunch of crap!

Hillary has been doing a frenzied tap-dance to keep these records hidden from Democratic voters.

BONUS:

- "I was for the war before I was against it!"

- Highest negative ratings of any candidate since polls were taken.

- The irrational hatred from wingnuts for anything Clinton.

- FAILED health care initiative as First Lady.

THAT'S JUST OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. In My Opinion, Those Are All Standard Level Attacks We'd Expect No Matter Who Runs, And Are Typical.
None of them sound like things that would resonate with the general public en masse, and are more the typical campaign smears we see back and forth through any GE. I'm talking about something that could turn off massive blocs of voters.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. I'm sorry but that's laughable.
If the candidate we were talking about was named Obama, you would be throwing a hissy fit about these items.

These are potentially devastating areas and there is a reason that Hillary has LIED and tap-danced to keep them secret so long.

The same people that claim the pastor deal is a major scandal are the same people that say the Iraq war is irrelevant.

What a crock.




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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
111. According to Randi Rhodes there is a lot more where that came from. nt
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
34. Typical Republican argument would be
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM by goodgd_yall
She wants to raise taxes. And then they would name all her campaigning points: college financial aid, health care, her Strategic Energy Fund as evidence. And of course her plan to take troopsout of Iraq one or two brigades a month. And they'll hearken back, as Obama supporters do, to the "awful" Clinton years, which somehow has been rewritten history in the past year or so.

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. Nothing that I seriously believe matters.
I could make up a list of shit, but it would just be bullshit.

But just to be honest, I am favoring Obama.

Hillary Clinton would make a fine POTUS. These attacks against her are hideous, in my opinion.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. Its already out there and its why Hillary will never get 50% of the vote.
Many people already dislike her. She never gets above 50% in favorability polls and she will never win a national election. She has had uglier and worse scandals many times over and more will come.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. So Your Argument Is Simply "Because She's Her".
Sorry, disagree wholeheartedly, as would the delegates. On her own merits, she could absolutely win in the GE. You're going to have to do better than that.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. You forget the Clinton scandals?
My argument is that here in the real world the scandals and negative stories that have ALREADY come out about Clinton are worse than anything that will come out on Obama. It was idiotic for her to run for President to begin with.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I Think You're Blinded By Your Own Hatred For Her.
With all the scandals, Bill left office with how high of an approval rating?

Even with all these scandals, Hillary is still doing amazingly well in this primary, even though she had so many things stacked against her. No doubt in my mind she can beat McCain once things actually get started, unless they get some really big weapon to use against her. They already have that weapon for use towards Obama.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. I think you're blinded by the cult of personality.
Stacked against her?

From day one of this primary Hillary had:
A popular former President backing her.
Universal national name recognition.
The support of the media that constantly called her the front runner.
A national fund raising network.
Close ties to the Democratic establishment in every state due to years in the national spotlight.
The experience of being part of two national campaigns.

Hillary had every advantage on her side for the primary and she's STILL losing. Any objective, reality based analysis is that she failed miserably despite having every advantage at the start. Stacked against her? Do you really believe what you're typing? Get real.
Obama is simply a more appealing and more skilled candidate. He has proven that with the results of the primary.

Do you really want me to start listing the Hillary scandals that are worse than anything that came out about Obama? Do you really think the right wing won't use that as ammunition against her? Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Please Do. That's The Point Of This Thread.
I'm trying to get us to think along the lines that the SD's will be using. So if you've got persuasive argument, list it.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
47. First of all it's not an 8 on a 10 - except for rabid repukes.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM by Laurab
Out in the "real" world, like my hometown newspaper, it got a quarter of a page way back in the paper saying "Obama distances self from fiery pastor" or something like that. They then go on to compare it to JFK being a Catholic. I talked to the only "rabid repuke" friend that I had last night, and all she could do was repeat O'reilly and Hannity talking points. She wasn't going to vote for him anyway, still prefers him to Hillary, and takes O'reilly and Hannity's word as Gospel.

This is why DU disgusts me so much lately - HRC supporters are TRYING to make it an 8 on a 10 scale. When did we start thinking like repukes? That IS exactly what people are doing, in post after post after post. Obama people do it, I admit, but this one is the worst I've seen.

Does HRC have bigger problems, aside from her already high negatives? Hell yes. There's a reason she's not releasing her taxes and the library donor lists, and it's not because it "takes time". It would be very easy for her to do if she WANTED to do it, but there is no way in hell we're going to see them unless she's the nominee, and then, say goodbye to the GE.

Aside from the knowns - the Saudis and others, there are a lot more very questionable donors on there. Anyone who believes her excuses for not releasing them is naive as can be. And there's also Bill. You're mistaken if you think a sex scandal would not destroy her chances in the GE. You're also mistaken if you don't think the repuke party has been waiting for the day HRC ran for president, and has been watching for the past 10-12 years.

Then there's all the old stuff that never really died, added to the fact that HRC will get out the repuke vote like NO ONE else would. WHY do you think the rush limbaugh's have been telling people to vote for her?

Lastly - with the dirty campaign HRC has run, she has lost a lot of dem support. I once would have been able to vote for her. Now I don't think I could do it, even holding my nose, if she somehow cheats her way into the nomination. I'm far from alone.

If you want to say it's an 8 on a scale of 10, that's your right, but I really believe you're on the wrong board if you really believe that. Hillary will do something else in the next few days that will show the real Hillary, and drive more dems away from her. That's all she's really done thus far, so I expect nothing less.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. It's Easily An 8 Of 10, And Your Inference That I'm A Freeper For Saying That Makes You Look Stupid.
I can't think of almost any singular combination that could be used in the GE more than the flag pin incident, hand on heart incident, the incident with Michelle's comments, followed by their 20 year pastor who is as close as close can be showing hatred towards america, blaming us for 9/11, hating rich white people, and saying we purposely infected blacks with aids, amongst other things. It's almost the perfect storm. To not recognize that right now, while we need to, would be utterly irresponsible.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #60
79. I didn't infer you were a freeper - just that you're thinking like one.
As are most of the HRC supporters who keep pushing this. It was not Obama who said any of that, and a lot of pastors say a lot of things. You're talking as if the words came out of Obama's mouth, which is ridiculous.

What is "utterly irresponsible" is keeping repuke talking points alive on a Democratic discussion board, although that seems the norm these days. Nice tally you've got there - I could make one up for HRC, but I'll let the repukes do their own work.

I'm moving on, myself, I really shouldn't have kicked this thread at all, I'll leave it to HRC's supporters to keep it kicked.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Wrong. Freepers Think In Closed Minded And Head In The Sand Terms, Like YOU'RE Doing.
You are projecting mightily here.

I'm the one being open minded, objective, and taking this election seriously. You, on the other hand, are throwing out baseless and childish insults while refusing to accept the reality that's before you. You are also turning this into a hillary supporter vs obama supporter issue, instead of the mature way of looking at it as a DEMOCRATIC issue. If either of us is guilty of freeper like thinking, it is you dear, not me.

When you learn how to have sincere discussion, come on back and maybe you can give it a shot.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #89
108. "Sincere discussion" - with you?


:rofl:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. Seems Like You're Incapable Of Having Them With Anybody.
When you grow up, let me know.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
50. Another thought - the experience claim
I have heard that first ladies do not get security clearance. So meetings, briefings, PDB's etc are off limits. Bill would even have been expected not to discuss much with her. This pretty much excludes her from the kind of experience she has been claiming and recasts her as more of a figurehead, or WH housekeeper. To argue otherwise is then to open a can of worms about security clearances and improper conduct. I have not seen this argued anywhere at all, but I would expect it from the RW at some point.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. Don't forget Sinbad, her peace train tour was more karaoke than anything
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TheDoorbellRang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
56. It'll have to be something visceral -- fear and/or sex work the best
Obama has the Wright stuff (pun intended) which, knowing it had to come out sometime, has come out at the very best time for him. He has five weeks and then another seven months to reframe it in any of its new incarnations. Overall, I've been pretty impressed with his abilities in reframing kitchen sinks into jacuzzis.

For Hillary? IWR and tax returns are simply not exciting enough to be the main entree. They'll just be side dishes to fear and sex, and they don't even have to be anything real. I can see commercials showing her different "moods" -- and since "we" all know how moody and crazy those menopausal women are, better not put one in charge... Every bit a vicious lie, but that's never stopped Rove-types before. Sex? I would not be surprised if there's a pretty lil thang who's cavorted with Bill some time in the last seven years. If not, I'm sure one can be found who says she has. This will remind America of those exciting impeachment years -- something we'd all look forward to repeating. And of course some would blame Hillary for Bill's pecadilloes. :crazy:

Either candidate is going to get sh*t thrown at them. In my opinion, Obama A) has less in his past to make a smear from, and B) has shown that he's better at dodging the bullets.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
59. Ye-Ah.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Well?
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Blondiegrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
65. *too tired to read through thread* Has Abramoff been mentioned?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/14/91513/8023/534/...

Of course there are a myriad of sleazy backroom deals in which the Clintons have been mired that others have mentioned here many times. The main reason Obama is the focus of so much "scandal" right now is that McCain and the GOP have already started their campaigning for the GE and they rightly presume that Obama will be the Democratic nominee. Clinton, to McCain, is irrelevant. Should she somehow manage to finagle the Democratic nomination, you can bet there will be tons and tons of crap on her floating to the surface.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
75. I think they have a list about 2 feet long
of things to bring up against Hillary. At least that long.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
81. Sorry, I don't buy it. I don't buy that Obama is somehow responsible for someone ELSE'S words.
Let the GOP run with this-- at which point the voters will go "Wait- I'm not voting for Obama's preacher, or his garbageman, or his cable installer." Then we can start talking about how many republicans, including John McCain, have played Kissy-Face with Jerry "gays and pagans caused 9-11" Falwell and Pat "The Supreme Court of the United States is worse than Al Qaeda" Robertson.

Meanwhile, our economy is taking a flaming fucking nosedive. I look forward to having the Republican Party try to convince voters that there's nothing more important to talk about than Obama's Preacher and his flag pin.

As for Hillary, I think the MOST damaging question the GOP can ask any of our candidates is the one they used effectively against John Kerry, which is, "How can you be against the Iraq War--- when you yourself voted for it?"
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
87. what is this wright thing?
:shrug:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. ...
:eyes:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. other then du, and a yahoo story about obama
opposing something his pastor said, it hasn't been in the news (from what I have seen). My girlfriend didn't know... none of my friends know.

They all know however that the Clintons are fake, phony
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. Good Luck With That!
:hi:
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. thanks
:hi:
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
91. There is the matter of Spitzer's semen on her blue dress.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
92. She's not going to be the nominee so relax! n/t
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #92
102. Sorry, This Thread Was For Those In Reality.
You must've gotten the invitation by accident...
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
94. I disagree with your premise...
and don't see what good this exercise will do for our chances in the GE.

McCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCainMcCain.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. It's obvious this is no honest exercise as the OP pretends.
Valid issues have been brought up and scoffed at because of bias and prejudice. The poster's mind was obviously made up before he began this thread.
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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. After reading through this entire thread
I would have to agree with you.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #107
115. Then You'd Be Wrong.
Which then, in your opinion, of the things listed, would bring Hillary as much risk as the things now with Obama?

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #99
112. That's A Crock Of Shit. It Is A 100% Genuine And Valid Exercise.
It's just as of yet, no ones really come up with anything that matches what Obama has against him. There are some concerns for both, but I still think based on what's been put here so far, that he goes in with the bigger risk. Too many are responding with "just because she's her" type arguments, and I think that isn't nearly good enough. Until yesterday, I had no doubt in my mind that both could win. I do have some doubts about Obama now because of this, though I'm still somewhat undecided on whether this could in fact be a mortal wound or not. But up until yesterday, our SD's would've considered them BOTH electable, and nothing on the Hillary side has changed to make that untrue. Nothing has changed to make it untrue in the way I look at her either. So I'm trying to discern if there are things I haven't thought of, that bring her closer to risk.

I'm aware many here hate her, but that's not good enough reason for me to consider them as equal risk now. Almost all the things mentioned are old news as it relates to Hillary, and they haven't killed her yet and I don't have any reason to believe that any issue brought up in this thread carries with it anywhere near the potential weight of being a campaign killer as the Wright incident (along with other things) could be for Obama. Which ones towards Hillary do you think are?

But I haven't scoffed at any legitimate claim yet. I've just found them to realistically not be anywhere near the level of risk as the wright issue. That has nothing to do with bias. In fact, on my deepest honor, health, and longevity of my family, you have my word that I've been leaning more towards supporting Obama lately, including last night. But I don't want to be reckless. At the end of the day our winning in November is all that matters. I want, as you should want, to make sure we send the candidate there with the best chances. As democrats, that's all we should care about.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #112
156. Whether or not it's "legitimate" is based purely on your opinions -
and those are opinions not shared by a majority. Like the candidate you support, you have a God-complex - you think if you say it's right, it's right, and vice versa.

Might want to see someone about that...
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #156
157. But They Are Shared By A Majority.
Furthermore, there is no God complex. There's merely the ability to be objective and see things for what they are. Furthermore, you keep wanting to imply that I'm biased towards Hillary, though I'm not.

So instead of your stupid no use to anyone attacks, how bout addressing the issue in a mature and sincere manner? Are you incapable?

What are you getting so defensive about?
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #157
169. That majority exists only in your mind.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #169
172. The Majority Exists In Reality. Have You Paid No Attention At All?
It's all over the web. All over tv. All over everywhere. Political strategists everywhere recognize this has the potential to be a GE wrecking blow. That's fact. Granted, no one knows for sure if it would be or not, but it's a fact that it carries with it that much weight that it absolutely COULD. To not recognize that makes you a bit naive, with all due respect.

Yes, the majority of those that are thinkers and knowledgeable about politics knows how big of an impact this could potentially have. You're trying to make that a delusional concept doesn't change its standing as fact, which it most certainly is.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #94
109. It's About Trying To Figure Out In A Serious Way Which Would Survive Better.
Obama wil be going into the GE with almost a perfect storm of propaganda to use against him via ads, viral video, emails, etc. I'd find that hard for anyone to disagree with at this point, since it's so blatantly obvious. That doesn't mean he's unelectable. It means he simply carries with him some risks. We haven't chosen a nominee yet, and the SD's will be thinking long and hard about what is best for our party in November. We still have a chance to do so. Hillary has baggage as well, for sure. I haven't thought of anything yet that could be as damaging, but I also know there are many things I haven't thought of.

So the point of the exercise is to tap into this wonderful resource that is DU, to lay it all out on the line. To give us a peek into what the SD's might be considering in making THEIR judgment as to who to give the nomination to.

As Democrats, our PRIMARY concern should be winning in November. We should all have interest in sending the nominee with the best chances to the GE, even if that turned out to be different than that which we originally supported. Having a discussion like this is EXACTLY what the point of GDP should be for. To say you don't see the point of this exercise is quite confusing, since at the core of it all this is EXACTLY what we should be discussing.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #109
136. We're trying to find something real.
And while there may be plenty with shreds of truth to it, in the end, they'll just make shit up to amplify whatever they choose to go with. It's futile.

the best way to beat it back is full guns on McCain - Now!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #136
158. Ehhh, I'll Agree With That.
:toast:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
97. SHE WON'T BE IN THE GENERAL-WE DON'T NEED 2 WAR CANDIDATES RUNNING!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #97
116. That's Not The Question. Please Answer The Question, If You Could.
Ignoring the question doesn't really do all that much.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
105. It's more complicated than digging things up.
It's true that Hillary is so well known there probably isn't a whole lot of 'new' stuff out there, but there's always the past to torture us with over and over again (and they will).

AND - Hillary has high negatives - people either love her or hate her. She doesn't have any room to gain ground with those who don't like her. She would carry the Democratic base but probably lose the middle to McCain. She would not win against him in the GE.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #105
118. I Don't Know Why, But I Really Don't Fear That So Much.
I think McCain is a huge bore. I've never quite understood why Hillary has such high negatives, because I don't see her as ever having done anything near wrong enough to deserve them. It's always bothered me a bit that it's the case though, even though to me it's a bit of an enigma.

I will admit though, that out of all the things I've heard and seen this primary season, that stat has always been the one that gave me the most concern about her. But when I see her speak at her rallies, and when I saw her Ohio/Texas victory speech, I was inspired as hell by her. It hit me that she's so much better than people currently see her as, and I can't help thinking that in the GE as more people are exposed to her more and more, and then compare her with McCain, that they'd like her better. I might be wrong there, but I just think at the end of the day she'll get more of the middle than people are predicting; once the real campaigning starts.

I just can't use any of the old things out there as reason to believe she's unelectable though, because as far as I've seen it BOTH of them could win the GE and I refuse to accept that if she was nominated, based on simply who she is, that she would've had no chance. I just don't believe that to be true. In order for her to have really big risk, I'd have to see something that when used in an ad, viral video, email campaign, etc, could snowball into something that would stick in the minds of millions and disgust them about her. I'm just not sure I've seen anything in this thread yet that would have that power.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. I wish I could expain the negative thing to you.
I don't like Hillary; I do not think she is trustworthy and I put very little stock in what she says - I simply don't believe her.

I think a lot of other people feel the same way I do and for Hillary, that's an unmovable mountain. There isn't anything she can do or say that would change my opinion of her at this point. Of course if the choice is McCain or Clinton, I will vote for Clinton, but that's because I'm a Democrat. Others might not be so dedicated. I just think she will have real problems with Independents, and she certainly won't get many Republicans.

My Dad, who is registering as a Democrat for the first time in his life, is voting for Obama in the PA primary. He has told me if Hillary gets the nomination, he will sit out the election; he won't vote for McCain but he won't vote for her either. Those are the people who worry me.

I know we're on different sides at the moment but as always, good talking to you. :hi:
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #118
179. "I don't see her as ever having done anything near wrong enough to deserve them."
Ahaahhaha. BUT you see -- the Hillary hatred has very little basis in reality and everything to do with image.

The general electorate hinges on image -- big ideas and values, not details and policies. Have you read Lakoff?

The Wright thing just doesn't smell like something that will stick in the GE. I understand your thought exercise and went through it, and I can see your point, but for whatever reason, it just doesn't seem like something that the electorate's going to riff on. JMHO.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #179
181. Well I Hope To Hell You're Right.
I mean that sincerely too. It just gave me this sick feeling in my gut when all of it came out, and I think I consumed myself too much with it today by searching google news, seeing how often stories were being update, how much it was being talked about, reading blogs, reading comments on those blogs, and feeling like this just isn't going to be a good thing when it gets rehashed in the GE. But I may be just overreacting out of fear, since it's all still so fresh and because the thought of losing in November almost terrifies me.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
106. Her experience vs. McCain's
She's running on "experience", Obama isn't. Whereas Obama simply brushes off concerns about it with "Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld had plenty and look where it got us", she can't do that. Grampa McWarhero with his 8 decades in the Senate will make hers look like a joke.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #106
123. I Agree With That On The Surface, But I've Never Quite Let That One Bother Me Much.
On the surface it seems scary when comparing the two, but then I think about the ways McCain has walked lockstep, his 100 year iraq war claims, and a million other ways in which his experience hasn't made him look good at all, and I consider it to be something that would be quite easy for Hillary to overcome. That's also why when she used that dirty tactic on Obama, I wasn't nearly as concerned about it being used against him in the GE, because I think he could easily overcome that as well.

Personally, I think any of the things that could be used by her could be overcome without too much effort by throwing shit back at him. We have a TON of weapons in our arsenal to use on him regardless of which candidate runs. I guess the reason why I'm taking the wright thing so seriously, is because I know human nature. And come the GE, once videos, emails, ads, etc come out combining the flag pin incident, hand over heart incident, the incident over Michelle's comments, and all of the Wright comments combined with Obama's close relationship to him, and I think you've got yourself a perfect storm of propaganda that would fester its way into average voters minds and cause them to look at him as not the type they want in the Oval office, even though such a mindset would be monumentally unfair and undeserved. But that's the public for ya, ya know?

I just can't get that combination of incidents out of my head and how powerfully they can use them. For the ONLY time throughout all of this, I think he could be defeated by that in the GE. Up until that, I had firmly believed he'd steamroll over McCain.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. Your reasoning is sound on Clinton
But she did further damage to her message framing with that "3 am" ad. She made it about experience and nat'l security. Guess what? It probably worked against Obama to a certain extent but polls are showing the McCain whups both of them on that issue, by about the same percentage. He's even been using the "3 am" line. Again, Obama can brush it off, but she's made it a part of her signature issue, experience. He's all about "change" and she's about "I like war almost as much as McCain!", perception-wise.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. I Don't Think I've Admitted It Yet, But I Was Turned Off By Her Use Of That Ad.
I thought it was just a really stupid thing to do, and am actually amazed in the end it actually helped her. But from my perspective it was a boneheaded move and unbecoming of someone who's a democrat, and I was definitely disappointed in her for it. And yeah, it probably wasn't smart ammunition to give him in the GE, but I still think she could counter it effectively nonetheless.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Supposedly it was a redux of the one Mondale used against Gary Hart in '04
It may have helped her a bit but I could also see McCain inserting himself in the later GOP version. Against Clinton, it could be damaging but against Obama he'd be apt to look like a creepy old version of GWB.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
110. If Hillary get the nomination, the Republican base will be energized beyond belief. That is much
more of a liability than this Rev. Wright thing which has already begun to die down. The fact that John McCain is standing behind Obama makes it much harder for them to get traction out of this and Obama's explanation seemed to end its momentum.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #110
125. I Think This Wright Issue Would Energize The Base Even More Than That, To Be Honest.
Don't you know how they are by now? Don't you see it already how they'd use this to whip up the base? This is the PERFECT propaganda for them. Up until this, you were absolutely right with that energizing the base argument. But I no longer think it can be used, since NOTHING can whip up the base more powerfully than propaganda framing Obama as an anti-american white person hater who has a pastor that believes we're to blame for 9/11. You and I both know how ridiculous that is to be convinced of, but this is the GOP BASE we're talking about. These are the HANNITY listeners we're talking about here. They'll be whipped into such a frenzy it ain't even funny. So I think that part is totally equal now.

And McCain doesn't need to use it. He's able to have his cake and eat it too. Take the high road while the 527's, radio talk shows, and internet spammers, spread it all like wildfire.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Republicans will never in a Million years hate Obama as much as Hillary
Even if he said Reagan was gay they would still hate Hillary more.
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bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #128
210. St Barack threw gays under the bus, so that You could make fun of them. Fucking bigoted idiocy you
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:16 AM by bettyellen

spew.
:barf:
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
120. Kerry proved that, in the absence of anything to attack him with, the GOP will just make shit up.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. That's True Of Course. But That's A Wash With Both Candidates.
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cavedem Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
121. Wait until next week to ask your question. Then you'll know
the Obama damage. You do realize that if Obama is thrown away because of what his pastor said, more blacks will not vote at all or for Hillary than if the pastor thing never would have arisen. Most blacks, and even whites, think what the pastor said was true. He simply should not have said it at church and in the manner he did. More dangerous to abandon Obama right now than not to, imo. I will vote for either, but I now think McCain may have it in the bag.
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Shae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #121
145. That's a good point.
I also think that if Obama wins the popular vote and pledged delegates, but the Powers That Be (superdelegates), decide that Hillary "wins", many black voters,if not most, would leave the party forever. Black voters are an essential part of the Democratic base, and I think that to award Hillary the nomination when Obama has the votes, would cripple the party for years to come.
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
122. without mentioning anything
it's not what can they use against her, it's what can she use against mccain.

She can't use experience, she can't use the war. The press loves mcCain, and hates her.

Then it'll be McCain Mr anti earmark, mr McCain Feingold, against whatever earmarks she's hiding, whatever she's hiding in her tax returns, whatever country with 15 9/11 hijackers has donated to her husband's library.

They may bring up the old 90's stuff, or they may not. they sure will bring up stuff that's relevant today like health care.

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cavedem Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #122
130. That's what I wanted to say, but I am too new. The reason
the Republicans are so desperate to have Hillary get the nomination is they mounds of stuff, as you suggest. With Obama, they are panicking. He is able to raise money from grassroots rather than lobbyists. He has really energized young people, and much more. Colorado will be an absolute disaster, and there is no way to stop it.
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
131. Who would you rather have a beer with? Hillary or McCain?
:shrug:
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
137. I know before you say it , I'm going to ask you a question
Do you honestly believe that McCain would want to debate Obama about Racial equality?
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #137
151. I guess I'm on ignore
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #137
159. Sorry, I've Been On The Phone The Past Hour.
Though to be honest, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with your question.

And for the record, I don't have anybody on ignore.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #159
164. Since you don't understand my first question I'll ask another
How are they going to frame the discussion about Wright?
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #164
173. Isn't It Obvious?
Are you asking that with sincerity or are you joking?
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #173
175. Sincerity
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #175
182. I'm still waiting
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #182
183. Keep Waiting.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 12:16 AM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
Your question seemed dumb.

Not sure there's any one else here who is wondering how the GOP would frame the issue.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #183
186. Your Op was comparing Obama and Wright
to Hillary's foibles,my initial question McCain debate Obama on Racial equality, which you didn't understand, and my second question was how would GOP frame the issue.
Your Op seems a little over reactionary and vague, but you had alot of responses on Hillary, but you seem to dismiss the majority.
I really wasn't expecting an answer, it would have been interesting to hear your take on it.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #186
187. Can You Really Sit There And Say You Don't Know How They Could Frame It?
:wow:
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #187
190. I didn't say I didn't know
I wanted to hear your opinion, since this is an issue in your eyes.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #190
191. Like I Said:
Dumb question.

At least you don't have to wonder why I won't humor you with a response to the stupid question.

God some people are just so friggin annoying.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #191
194. I quess that is easier than answering the question.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #194
196. You Already Know The Answer.
So does every single other person here. That's what makes it a completely retarded question to begin with.

What next... You gonna make me prove that I know what 2+2 equals?

Take your foolishly stupid games elsewhere.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
138. BUSH/CLINTON/BUSH/CLINTON
They will run ads by the thousands and it allows them to run away from Bush

and it will make McCain the 'change agent'

It takes away all of our arguments that we are going in a new direction away.

It will kill the campaign
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #138
142. And it will just be an excuse for the Rethugs not to have...
another Clinton. It wouldn't stop them from running another Bush (Jeb) in 2012.

It's not like they're going to say, "OK. We'll let Obama win this time because he's not a Clinton."
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. It will also help them raise money and unite their party in a word = insanity
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #138
161. Too Easily Countered.
Turn it around to: republican/democrat/republican/? and show images of how shitty things were with the R's each time, and the prosperity and good feelings enjoyed while clinton was in office. I thought her it took a Clinton to clean up after the first bush, and it'll take one to clean up after the second, was an amazingly effective line. I'm not really worried about that one at all, to be honest. I think we could too easily use it to our advantage.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
139. whitewatergate, travelgate, filegate, vince foster, failed healthcare plan
flip-flopping on nafta, doma, "going after people's wages"
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Thurston Howell III Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. The Hillary people are saying "HUH?!?!?! They can't do that! It's old news
and it's been disproven!!"
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. well the public will get a nice little refresher
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
140. If she would dump Bill, I think she'd be fine. n/t
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
147. You're joking, right?
I mean, seriously, you have to be joking.

Do you actually know anything about your candidate?

Pardongate.
Hsu.
Gupta.
"The Senator From Mumbai".
Library donors.
Where the $54 million came from.
Lying about WH "experience".
Bill's sex life.
Rezko.
etc.

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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
149. If this thread had "Obama" in the title it'd have 400 alerts by now.
Thanks to the DUbama's "Shut Down This Thread!!" email loop...
:eyes:
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
150. "Political Lesbianism" from Klein's: The Truth about Hillary
Just read a couple chapters. If Rove has read it and decides to swiftboat on that basis: shit meets fan.

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
152. Thank you for your concern!
I've always wanted to say that. :evilgrin:

Look, OPERATIONMINDCRIME, we know you're a Hillary supporter. The objective truth of this matter is that this is not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be.

The GOP is going to use any and everything against any Democratic candidate. Hillary Clinton has baggage and I don't think I need to give you examples because you know it. The way Obama has been able to bounce this thing right off of him has shown just how tough and ready he is to deal with these idiotic attacks. Did you see the "interview" he did on FOX news? It's in the video forum. Obama destroyed that FOX news "gotcha" man and came off smelling like a rose.

People are going to forget about this by next week.
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. Obama did well on the Fox and CNN interviews, but....
I continued to watch Fox for a while and they would NOT let this Wright thing go. Granted, Fox viewers are unlikely to vote for a Democrat anyway, but don't think that Fox will let this blow-over.

And there will be a lot of people on the fence between Obama and McCain that won't forget it.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #152
165. I Think You're Quite Wrong There.
First of all, I'm officially unaffiliated to either, though I've been leaning more towards Obama as of late. That's a fact, though it's a bit irrelevant.

Furthermore, I think those who want to dismiss it as a non story are doing so a bit recklessly. Personally, I don't even think what we may find in the next few weeks would be a true indication of how it would effect him in the GE, since we're still in the primary process. But what I do know is how the GOP works, how they manipulate, and how easy to persuade the average american voter is with strong propaganda. This wright thing when combined masterfully with the flag pin thing, hand on heart thing and the thing about Michelle's comments, is one hell of a perfect storm type propaganda campaign. Even if it doesn't effect him in the short term, come the GE they're going to go after him RELENTLESSLY about it. I think that's as close to fact as fact can be. They will frame him as being anti-american, anti-white, and associated with someone who blames us for 9/11. That the RW's wet friggin dream. What's more, is that they don't just have to frame him that way, but they have powerful video evidence that would REALLY send the point home, and they wouldn't have to even really twist any of it out of context. That's the problem as I see it, because this has every component they need to whip people into a frenzy, and they will use it relentlessly.
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gmudem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
154. Cluster bombs, inventing foreign policy experience,
lying to Ohioans about her position on NAFTA, continuing support of neo-conservative foreign policy positions which means no substantial policy difference between her and McCain.

To name a few.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #154
170. LaFarge Director, Kennametal, Mark Penn...
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #154
171. Cluster Bombs? Nope. Inventing Foreign Policy Experience? Lie,Though They'd Use It.
Lying about nafta? Lie, and not to mention he has no leg to stand on there, does he? Supporting neocon foreign policy? How's the GOP gonna use THAT one against her?

Use your head. I'm talking about the GE here, not the primaries. There won't be overzealous rabid closed minded dems going for her throat in the GE, so I fail to see how most of what you wrote could be used against her by the GOP. You can try again if you want though.
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gmudem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. LOL
You actually think Clinton is against NAFTA in any way? http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2008/03/h...

Joke's on you buddy. And yes, she has invented foreign policy experience. Even Sinbad has said so.

And I guess I am a close a close-minded Dem, as I'm not a big fan of "Dems" who support the use of cluster bombs and supporting neo-con foreign policy, but I guess that's my problem.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #171
180. "Whatever Happened To IRAQGATE" by Kenneth R. Timmerman (American Spectator Nov. 1996)
reposted at Gulf War Veteran Resources Pages Web August 12, 1997
http://www.gulfweb.org/doc_show.cfm?ID=527

Are you OK, OMC?
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
160. Well, the Jennifer Flowers thing looks like fun. Then whatever is being hidden in those tax returns
as well as the donations to Bill's Library and Foundation are also fair game. Besides be-bunking all the things she claims she did while in the White House.

The list goes on but that should be more than enough for now.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #160
174. I Don't Know Why,
I just don't see any of those things being anything more then few day topics at water coolers, but nothing that would fixated in voters minds to the degrees that they'd be disgusted with the thought of supporting her, or to the point that it would just keep spreading and spreading and be insurmountable.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
184. yer kidding right ?
ALL they have to do is come up with some bogus 'allegations' about Bill's sex life and she'll be forced to face question after question after question about it during EVERY press conference and campaign appearance and that's just the beginning. That whole tax return thing and presidential records bit will chip away at her too. Hell, by the time they are done with her they'll have found some grade school classmate of hers that once heard her utter racial epithets or that she stomped on a box of kittens and threw snowballs at a bus full of nuns.
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MzShellG Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
185. Why should we help dig up dirt for the rethugs to use? Thats what the Hillary camp does.
I'm sure they will find PLENTY themselves.
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hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
188. She voted for the war
What's wrong with you people. You act as though Iraq is almost inconsequential. Get it!
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #188
204. The GOP Is Going To Use That Against Her? How Silly.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
192. Neither Obama Or Hillary Would Have Any Problem
against McCain. My question is why aren't you standing up for Wright. What has he said that you really find so egregious? I think he would fit right in at DU.
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
199. As a CinC she's grand strategically retarded like Bush or McCain, I'm talking beyond redemption
Being brutually honest, Obama is crap, because virtually no one understands Grand Strategy. They only understand the MIC Gravy Train. Obama's got potential to be head and shoulders above and beyond, those 2 clueless dumbfucks.

Not to mention Obama is way beyond the Bush/Cheney clusterfuck Grand Strategic moronic duo in chief.

I'd say George Washington was the greatest grand strategist America ever produced. Hands down.
Stonewall Jackson gets my vote as the greatest general.





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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
200. This is a joke right?
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 02:04 AM by merh


You really have to ask - she has so much baggage and it is so heavy, she has to hire an extra jet just to carry it with her to all of her campaign stops.



But to give you an answer - her tears were the worst thing she could have done. Oh, I know you and other supporters think that is gave her depth or showed her true passion and purpose, but to those on the right that don't like her or the idea of her being CnC, the tears just confirmed their fears.

I had one of my neighbors laughing about her the day of the primary saying something like, "sure, if Hillary were president, she would just break out in tears if another attack happened or if she had to handle something that was tough, that's all we need." The neighbor was a woman.

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
202. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. . . . . ?
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:29 AM by MadHound
Oh, you're actually serious about this question. OMG :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #202
205. Got An Answer? You're Good With This Stuff. I'd Like To Hear What You Have To Say.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #205
206. Geez OMC, if you honestly don't know what will be thrown at Hillary,
You've been in a cave for the past twenty years. Everything from her sexuality to Bill's affairs. Travelgate, Vince Foster, the healthcare debacle, bimbo eruptions, every single slimy rumor that floated around the Clinton administration will be revived and trotted out to use against her.

Meanwhile the anti-war left will throw the war, NAFTA and Kyle/Lieberman at her.

I think that you're one of the few honest players for Hillary around here, please don't tell me that you're unaware of all these negatives surrounding Clinton. They've been there since the beginning, and have been part of the reason that Hillary hasn't polled as well nationally as Obama. Hell, why do you think that the RW media like Limbaugh, Hanity, Coulter, etc. are pushing Hillary right now? Because they know full well how vunerable Clinton is and how easy it will be to whip up all the old, and new stories against her.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #206
207. Just Out Of Curiosity: Why Come The GE Would The Anti-War Left Be Protesting Her Instead Of McCain?
They might have their issues with her, but even a dolt knows that McCain is worse for us as it relates to that than Hillary, so why would they want to try and get him elected? That just doesn't make sense to me and makes it appear they aren't 'left' at all.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #207
208. Because they view both Hillary and McCain as warmongers,
And will either go Green or stay home rather than voting for either candidate.

Nor does it help that Hillary has repeatedly stated during the primary campaign that she will be keeping combat troops, going on combat missions, for possibly the entirety of her first term, if not longer.

Does this make sense, perhaps not in your eyes, but never the less, millions of the anti-war left will follow this course if comes down to a Clinton/McCain choice.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #208
209. Oh Ok. So They're Selfish And Stupid Then. Fair Enough.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
203. Democratic primary and caucus voters found her candidacy far less compelling
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:33 AM by Old Crusoe
than they did other Democrats' vision for our collective futures.

Obama won in Iowa. John Edwards placed second. She came in third. If Biden, Dodd, Kucinich, Richardson, and Gravel had been blessed with Clinton's campaign coffer, my guess is she wouldn't have even made it to third place. At least two, maybe four, of the others would have whupped her.

Her campaign has been lackluster at best.

Her speaking gift is, well, lacking. To be kind.

She is nowhere as good at international policy as Biden or Richardson, and even further away from Edwards and Kucinich and Gravel on domestic policy. There's absolutely no reason at all why anyone would choose her over B & R for international issues or her over E, K, and G on domestic issues. I can't think of one reason at all to support Clinton over Mike Gravel on any issue.

'I'm my husband's wife. Vote for me." That's hardly a rallying cry for feminist history.




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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
211. Drip, drip, drip
Clinton Library Foundation donors
Tax returns
Undisclosed earmarks
Withheld WH documents at the national archives
Bill's post-presidential deal-making business
Travelgate
Rose Law Firm records
Cattle futures
WH travel office
Norman Hsu
Marc Rich
Kneecaping Jim Cooper
Tyson and Stephens group corporate favors
Wal-Mart board activities
Castle Grande
Barrett Report
Peter Paul


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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #211
215. and the trial is in OCT.
right before the GE. There can be no worse timing. This alone will end her regardless of the outcome.
Just put in the news , Hillary facing fraud trial 2 weeks before the GE.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
212. self delete
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:56 AM by usnret88

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
216. That's pretty easy! She loves the war and McLame !
She caved the day she voted for the war (IWR) and the day she said McLame
would make a good president. Reaching across the aisle is one thing...
running across and sitting and voting with them is quite another :(

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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-18-08 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
217. Google Peter Paul n/t
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