Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

PastorGate is not about race, it's about Obama's judgement and credibility

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:43 AM
Original message
PastorGate is not about race, it's about Obama's judgement and credibility
And if the Obama campaign tries to defend this story by playing the racial victim card, they will merely exacerbate it.

Obama has been having trouble with one major constituency: working class, middle income Democrats.

This is the group that will have the biggest problem with "God damn America." It will alienate them further.

It also may erode his support amongst affluent suburbanites, where he has been doing well. They won't mind Wright's message as much, but they may have a hard time believing that Obama never heard any of these inflammatory sermons during eighteen years of pew sitting. They will question his veracity, especially considering he started hiding his pastor a year ago due to those very reasons.

None of this is necessarily fatal. And it might be the crisis where we watch how Obama deals with public adversity and survives it, not always a bad thing in American politics.

But, for many people, this will change their perceptions of him. The videos of Wright's sermons, regardless of whether you agree with him or not, stands in such jarring juxtaposition to the very core of the Obama campaign's message - unity and bipartisanship and healing - that it will make observers give Obama's character a very long, hard, critical look.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. The IWR vote is about judgment and credibility too.
The difference being, there are not hundreds of thousands dead and wounded because of Obama's outspoken former pastor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. obama votes to support/fund the iraqi occupation - has has lots of blood on his hands too nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Big difference between starting a war
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:01 PM by tabasco
and funding food and ammo for soldiers in a war zone.

If you fail to see the difference, that's your problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Defunding is not a viable option. Sorry, Obama did the right thing--and so did Hillary, by funding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
557188 Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
71. yes defunding is
God you kool-aid drinkers are incredible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. "Kool aid drinkers"--are you shitting me? When did Hillary advocate defunding?
When did most of the Democratic Congress? They HAVEN'T--because it's a historically shitty way to end a conflict, fraught with possible unintended consequences. The brightest minds in the Senate refuse to defund. There is a reason why, and it's not all politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Then there is not one Democrat in the Senate we can trust, because

all voted for it who were there to do so. Only Nelson of FL voted against it, the other 99 Senators were for it.

Obama would have voted for it if he had been in the Senate. Only a few in the House had the courage to vote against it.

Obama made one (1) speech at an anti-war rally in 2002.

In 2004, running for the Senate, Obama told the Chicago Tribune that his position on the war was basically the same as George Bush's position.

Obama wanted the pro-war people of Illinois to vote for him, knowing there were not enough anti-war voters then to send him to the Senate.


Own Obama's words and the reality of his slick-talking chameleon behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Wrong
My Senator - Chafee -R - RI voted against it.

Nelson was not the only Senator to vote against the IWR.

I do believe if Obama were in the Senate then that he would have voted for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hulka38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Obama's senior senator from Illinois Durbin who he's close to voted against it as did many senators.
There's no way given what Obama said publicly about the folly of going into Iraq that he would have voted for it if he were in the Senate. Speculating that he would have displays blatant ignorance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. 23 Senators. To be exact.
House/Senate combined: 57% of Democrats voted against the IWR.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. Change the topic. That's always helpful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
70. so how did obama vote on IWR? oh that's right, he wasn't in the senate at the time, so you can
project what ever vote you want on to him. hillary 'spoke against' pre-emptive wars and etc. too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sure it is
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yea, that oaf. He denounced the message but is standing by a friend.
Can't have that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Right. Because the media is examining all the candidates' preachers
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:47 AM by Truth Hurts A Lot
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Why did we never see or hear any of...
Mike Huckabee's sermons? I'm sure there would have been something more than mildly controversial in them, but not a word was released or examined in the press. And we're not talking about a candidate's friend, it was the candidate himself.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Part of his platform is the pledge not to simply shun those with whom he disagrees.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. Playing the victim card is a very effective tactic
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM by rocknation
Just ask Hillary!


rocknation

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. For a man whose major campaign stance is judgement and words matter...
this sucks real bad.

Pastor + new Resko... opps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Why pick on Obama then - if judgment is your pet peeve?
Obama did not write or deliver the sermons of Jeremiah Wright. Nor would he have. I've had friends with bad judgment - haven't you? If you truly think of Hillary as a friend, then you know what I mean.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. Oh no, it's about race
And about what white America considers acceptable and unacceptable in a minority candidate. Unity, hope, we are the world = good. Drawing attention to racial injustice, oppression, persecution = very bad. Because the former message isn't about changing the systems of power, while the latter message IS. Obama has been successful so far by sticking to the first message & not making white people feel uncomfortable. Because the hope, change & unity mantra makes white people feel good - look how tolerant we are! Look how we're not racist at all! Go us! But any examination of systemic racism & power imbalances makes white people feel very uncomfortable & defensive. And THAT's why so many people are now changing their minds, & that's why the media is covering this 24/7. Obama used to make them feel all good about themselves & now he's made them feel bad & defensive. For that he must be punished. I'm a Clinton supporter, but it will really really bug me if this is what ends Obama's campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. You're correct, though you will be slammed for saying it.

Nobody is allowed to criticize the Great Obama or to look at the man behind
the curtain, Rev. Wright, without being called racist.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. Handy tactic in a primary
disastrous in the general election
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
12. PastorGate is about nothing...
What's next? Scrutinizing the opinions of Obama's dentist? The mechanic who works on his cars? The cashier at the grocery store where he buys his toilet tissue? God's sake. If ever there was a tempest in a teapot...

How fair would you feel it to be to have someone examine the opinions of someone you know (no matter who) and try to hold you responsible for them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. If Obama has dedicated an important book to his dentist , mechanic or the
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:09 PM by Benhurst
cashier at the grocery store where he shops and claims that person as his spiritual mentor, then I would interested in learning more about them.

Same goes for Hillary or any other candidate.

Otherwise, I couldn't care less.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Actually, I can agree with that, to a point.
Unfortunately, the media isn't interested in 'learning' anything about Obama's spiritual mentor. They are interested in extracting shocking sound bites from this person's sermons and trying to use them to tarnish Obama's reputation. I have a hard time seeing the fairness in such tactics, no matter the candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. The corporate press is not going to be fair to any candidate we
nominate.

While I'm not in disagreement with you, I feel we're better off having our candidates thoroughly, if even unfairly, vetted before the general election.

I'm expecting Rovian lies. I don't want to be blindsided by Rovian truths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Touche`
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. The audacity of denial
Look - the whole damn thing is crazy.
Starting with the religiosity of the candidate through the absurdity of the reactions and the tragedy of the consequences. (electoral defeat).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
73. Pastorgate is very important. He put this weirdo on his campaign
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. No, it's really all about you
and the rest who are making political hay of it.
There is some fascinating stuff going on here.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Yep
we at Democratic Underground made up this story, hired the actors, manufactured the videos and, with our great powers, forced the news networks to play them non stop for two days.

It's all about us. Nothing to do with Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I didn't say that at all
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:13 PM by C_U_L8R
but thanks, your creative reinterpretation of what I said
is a great example of the many fascinating things going
on around here
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. We're observers here
this board is for commenting and discussing. We don't make "political hay." We're talking about stuff that is at the top of the news right now. We didn't put it there, and why is it illegitimate to analyze it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
54. It's not illegitimate but your statements are subject to challenge. That's why we post too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. Of course
but the post made it seem like the story was about US and our reaction to it.

Part of the story is about how America reacts to it, I agree, but the story wasn't created by anyone but Wright and Obama.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. That's crazy.
Obama did NOT create this story he is merely reacting to it. What is wrong with you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. For me it's ALL about winning in November
We must win. We cannot wait until 2012 for this to blow over and for the country to grow up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. I know Hillary supporters are praying that this damages him, but
he handled it head-on, and it likely won't. And even if it does, it's sad, because he did nothing wrong. He never said such things, in any of his writings or speeches or legislation--absurd to hold him responsible for another man's angry words. So, get whatever joy and hope you can out of this "scandal", and we'll see what happens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. You always attribute
the worst possible motives to "Hillary supporters" in your broad brush generalizations.

The world is a bit grayer than how you continually try to paint it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. Your sig line belies...
the grayness you claim exists. You see things that aren't there and paint with a pretty "broad brush" yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. that's why many non partisan people
see the bias at MSNBC and other news outlets. That's why SNL parodied it.

Because they all see things that aren't there. Uh huh.

But that's beside the point. The poster's attempt to generalize about the motives of "Hillary supporters" is just as inane as anyone's attempt to generalize about "Obama supporters."

There are many insightful and fair minded Obama supporters and many insightful and fair minded Hillary supporters.

And then there are those whose main contribution ($$*cough cough*) to this board is to flame and inflame.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. "main contribution ($$*cough cough*)"
Maybe a Democratic administration will pass a little better COLA for my Social Security Disability monthly allotment so that I can correct that pet peeve of yours. It's not fair that you pay good money to "flame and inflame" while I get a free ride.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I sincerely hope they do
but you keep coming into conversations I'm having with other people, not with reasoned discussion, but with attacks. Which is fully your prerogative, this is a discussion board, but it kind of belies your claims about who's flaming who.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I don' think that calling for you to "reject and denounce"...
an obvious flame-post is an attack. I merely call for you to be realistic. We obviously know very little about each other - who would say what they say on here if their names and addresses were public information? I have had a sinking feeling about this election since the RW pundits began obviously advocating Hillary's candidacy over two years ago - what would be their motive for trying to pick our candidate? The answers are obvious and many - and I think that you can see that as well as I.

Also, from my own perspective, the Clintons both are to be distrusted - their motives have been vain and narcissistic all along. We're talking decades, decades for the right-wing to gather scandalous and possibly criminal info to use in their "527" ads in the fall. And it is my firm belief that they will successfully do so. Not to mention the obvious and cynical way the Mark Penn campaign is "gaming the system" on the Democratic Primary process - calling for patently corrupted delegate results from FL and MI to be seated "as is" - I don't think I even have to adjectivize that whole tack. Anyway, peace to you and I hope you are doing well, and continue to do so in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. How can I NOT see the worst motives? I have yet to ever see a Hillary
supporter defend Obama when he's being attacked unfairly--in fact, most on here declared Geraldine's words about him true, and defended HER, in the face of her terribly insulting and dismissive words and her ridiculous charges that SHE was somehow a victim. Most just pile on with glee liked crazed monkeys at the first sign of any negative story that involves him, and start thread after thread on substanceless "scandals" like this, and declare how it will "doom" him--because in your hearts, you WANT it to doom him. Both sides are vindictive, myself sometimes included, but Hillary supporters go to absolutely absurd lengths to defend anything Hillary--beyond the defensible--and to bash anything Obama, beyond all reason. "Pastorgate" is ridiculous. It just doesn't get less important than this--an old black preacher sometimes railing about white America from the pulpit--but that won't stop Hillaryland from hoping it proves to be a fatal flaw anyway. Well, good luck with that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. read this and get back to me
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Well, I applaud you for your occasional forays into fairness and reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Well, I'm not the only one
and I'm not sure how you could have missed others. I haven't.

So now you can officially stop generalizing about Hillary supporters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. You know nothing of the sort
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
68. You don't know crap about us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. How many inner city churches have you frequented
let alone predominantly black inner city churches. Not all churches are the same by any means but the typical presbyterian churches I've attended are certainly sedate in behavior and speech compared to say the Assembly of God churches I've been to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bullshit it's not about race! It's all about race! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
74. oh yeah-just a bit of swearing. now i am convinced. yup--that did it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IdClaire Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
28. it goes to the heart of credibility
if there is one sighting of him in the church during one of those sermons he is done for. How many people really believe he never heard this type of sermon from this pastor? It strains credibility.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. Pastorgate IS about race. Period.
Before I start, yes, I agree that "God Damn America" is over the top and patently offensive.

Do I think this as a "middle income white Democrat"? No.
I think this as a Christian... one of them evangelical types.

There has been a lot of talk about how "angry" Rev. Wright is. And my answer is simply, "so"? There is no biblical or scriptural prohibition against being angry. In fact, if one reads the Gospels, Jesus spent alot of time pretty pissed off... not just at the world around him, but at his followers as well. The Old Testament is FULL of references to God's righteous and justified anger.

However, there is a difference between sinful anger and sanctified anger. Sinful anger is being angry over things that anger the heart of man. Sanctified anger is being angry over things that anger the heart of God. Tell me... where do you think institutionalized racism, discrimination, segregation, and bigotry fall?

Did Jesus get angry over the Roman occupation of Israel? Not that we're aware of through scripture. Instead he got angry over the moneychangers in the temple, the rich ignoring the poor, the discrimination against the sick, and the prideful and boastful Pharisees.

Ephesians 4:26 says "In your anger, do not sin. Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry."

What's really sad is that the RW Evangelicals are often chastised here on DU for being exclusionary, and rightly so. But yet when a black preacher says things that make us uncomfortable, there are many here who immediately revert to the RW Evangelical behaviors oft despised. Jesus hung out with those that made the powers that be "uncomfortable". He was often questioned "why are you hanging out with them?"

He entered and was passing through Jericho. There was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. He was trying to see who Jesus was, and couldn't because of the crowd, because he was short. He ran on ahead, and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was to pass that way.

When Jesus came to the place, he looked up and saw him, and said to him,"Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house." He hurried, came down, and received him joyfully. When they saw it, they all murmured, saying, "He has gone in to lodge with a man who is a sinner."

Jesus said to him, "Today, salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost." - Luke 19:1-10


So now people here on DU are asking the same question and using the same language when it comes to Sen. Obama and Rev. Wright. Look in the mirror and ask yourself, how does that make you any different than those you criticize.

There are alot of people, including many here, who just don't "get it" when it comes to Rev. Wright's sermons. I'm not here to convince you otherwise...that's for you to decide. What my point here is to give you some insight into how an evangelical, liberal Democrat sees this.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carlotta Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. Did Obama know....?
It's not the words that Wright preached which are the only problems Obama faces. How could he justify belonging to a church whose leader called Louis Farrakhan a "great man", who traveled with him to Libya, who's daughter's magazine awarded Farrakhan their "Excellence" award? Obama claims he didn't hear the particular sermons in question but Obama had to have been aware of these Farrakhan connections and that, combined with the sermons is what I find extremely troubling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
36. 'White' ministers say crazy things all the time, especially rw fundies.
Let's go after the ones who support McCain instead of using Rev. Wright to attack Barack Obama, a Dem candidate.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. eh, it's about tying him to words he didn't say and justifying why white people are scared
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:20 PM by orangepeel68
of the black preacher.

I think this this will hurt Obama's electability, although I don't know by how much. But it's all about him having an Al Sharpton like pastor. People will tie themselves into knots trying to give "good" reasons why that's a problem, but it will all come down to that in the end.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. Double post deleted.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:34 PM by kwenu
Double post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
42. "Pastorgate" is overblown BS, and here's why
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
46. No, what it's about is Hillary supporters trying to drum up some sort of scandal, at any cost,
In order to try and take the publics' mind off the very real fact that the Clinton campaign employed racist tactics and comments, and got called on it loudly by the American public.

This so called "Wright scandal" is nothing more than an attempt at distraction, and it is failing badly. After bobbing all at the fringes of the MSM for a couple of days, the only network that is now really pushing it is Faux, which given Clinton's current Republican leanings, is rather appropriate. Even Clinton's top campaign figures are now refusing to push it, in the realization that it really doesn't have legs and that further attempts to foist more bogus bullshit like this on the public only hurts Clinton's image among the public and the party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
49. My aunt was a racist
I was upset by her views, but she was still my aunt and I went to family functions where she attended. I guess it's a good thing I didn't try to run for President.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Did you shop around for your aunt as an adult, to find the best aunt for you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. BadaBing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MediaBabe Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
69. Did you take your children weekly to listen to her rants? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
50. Obama has condemned the statements and had Wright leave the campaign.
Obama's judgment and credibility is sound. Obama never said anything remotely close to "God Damn America." He has denounced Wright's statements and rejected those sentiments. Enjoy this jeremiah wright circus for the next few days because it's dying. And then you'll have to come up with another boogey-man to try to justify your position. Maybe instead of being a radical christian you'll fall back to saying he's muslim again. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
55. Its about the CLINTON CAMPAIGN "kitchen sink" strategy. Don't worry, more is coming
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
57. Oh please. It's a typical hit job
worthy of Nixon and McCarthy. Don't demean yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
59. that Obama never heard any of these inflammatory sermons during eighteen years of pew sitting ......
A HUGE STRETCH OF CREDULITY!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
60. Deep-sixing BCCI matters was about judgement AND HONEST and OPEN Government....
How did Clintons do on that when they sided with GHWBush and Jackson Stephens, the man who BANKROLLED their careers?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
61. Judging from these services Obama's church offers to the community...
I'd say he backs a winner. Eat it:

Ministries:

ACTIVE SENIORS AND FRIENDS - are members and friends who are 55 years of age and older. They meet regularly for Bible study and fellowship. They participate in quarterly outings for inspiration and recreation, and provide ongoing care and keeping of other seniors.

ADOPT-A-STUDENT MINISTRY - is focused on trying to retain college students who have gone away from home and are studying at universities and colleges out of the city and state. Importantly, this ministry assures our college students that they: 1) belong to God, and 2) have a church home that cares about them.

AFRICA MINISTRY - promotes, educates and advocates issues concerning Africans in Africa and the Diaspora. Opportunities shall be provided for education, travel, fellowship, economic development, missionary work, financial support, and health education.

ATHLETES FOR CHRIST - welcomes young men and women to build their physical strengths through participation in Christian sport activities.

CAN-CER-VIVE - supports members and friends who are survivors, and/or are presently overcoming and/or encountering the many faces of cancer. The ministry plans and conducts seminars/workshops designed to explore and inform its members about matters of diet, grooming, spiritual support, care-giving/receiving and recreational activities.

CAREER DEVELOPMENT - provides information, training and job fairs to enable unemployed and underemployed members to compete and upgrade their employability for jobs with employers seeking "good" employees.

CARIBBEAN CONNECTION - This ministry is our Afrocentric congregation's attempt to educate our North American members about the many aspects of the Caribbean culture. These aspects include the cuisine, the peoples, the countries, the customs, and the religion of our Lord as practiced in the various Caribbean places.

CHURCH IN SOCIETY - (CIS) - continually seeks ways and opportunities to educate, inform and empower the congregation and community to understand, identify and to be effective advocates for social justice policies that better our lives and our world.

CHURCH SCHOOL - meets Saturday mornings and provides Bible instructions in classes for pre-school through adults.

COMMITTEE FOR CHURCH IN SOCIETY (CIS) - works to establish Christian principles in the economic, social and political aspects of our church and community life.

COUNSELING MINISTRY -Masters Degree Holders in counseling or related professions, enable Church members to receive private, Christian counseling in matters of individual, family, group and/or grief crises.

DANCE MINISTRY - includes children, youth, men and women who are taught the principles of modern dance, ballet, and interpretive dance. They are also taught the African roots of dance in worship and the biblical basis for praising God with dance!

Children's Dance - 7-9 years old
Pre Teen Dance - 10-12 years old
High School Dance - 13-18 years old
Adult Dance - Adult Men & Women
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ADVOCACY/CARE MINISTRY - provides Christian support, love and comfort to persons involved in emotional and physically abusive relationships, with husbands/wives, boyfriends/girlfriends or family members.

DRAMA MINISTRY - nurtures the innate abilities of expression present in all of our children and youth as they learn to communicate on the stage to the world.

DRILL TEAM - promotes an understanding of scripture, encourages academic excellence, heightens cultural awareness, fosters self-discipline and develops self-esteem.

Youth Drill Team - 13-18 years old
Women's Drill Team - adult women
Men's Drill Team - adult men
DRUG & ALCOHOL RECOVERY MINISTRY - meets each week with recovering members, their families and friends. Members Member's are encouraged to participate in Christian support groups which acknowledge that only "if the Son (of God) shall set you free, you shall be free, indeed."

EMMAUS ROAD MINISTRY - provides companions, prayer partners, helpers and friends for grieving persons, months after the passing of a loved one. Ongoing contact with the family is maintained.

FINE ARTS & LITERARY GUILD - informs the church family about artistic and cultural events focusing on African and African American heritage.

FOOD SHARE MINISTRY - provides fresh and canned food baskets on a monthly basis for the Hungry, the Homeless, and the Less Fortunate.

GIRL SCOUTS - involve young girls 9 - 17 years of age in the experience of scouting within our Afrocentric Christian environment.

GREETERS MINISTRY - welcome visitors and members to worship and special services.

HEALING MINISTRY - offers the laying on of hands to all who request prayer for healing of spirit, soul or body.

HEALTH ADVISORY MINISTRY - is dedicated to the prevention and treatment of physical and mental illnesses. HAB strives to inform and educate our members and community about "cutting edge" health issues.

HIGH SCHOOL COUNSELING - supports high school students to enhance their educational progress.

HIV/AIDS MINISTRY - offers comfort through support, education, and training for individuals, families and friends impacted by HIV and AIDS. Training Required.

HOSPITALITY MINISTRY - hosts family repasts, in-house ministry receptions and rolls out the "red carpet", for visitors gathered within our gates.

HOUSING MINISTRY - sponsors seminars to inform the church and community families about tax sales, "how to..." avoid foreclosure; purchase HUD homes; finance mortgages; etc.

INTERNAL SECURITY MINISTRY - provide security for the pastoral staff, members and V.I.P.'s. Additionally, the ministry assists ministries with securing funds when necessary and when offerings are received. Training Required.

INTONJANE - Swahili for "Coming into Womanhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young women, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

ISUTHU - Swahili for "Coming into Manhood" is a formal Rites of Passage program for young men, ages 8-18 years old. The program involves each participant in inspiring Christian, cultural and social awareness exercises.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY MINISTRY - Information Technology Ministry (IT Ministry) provides Information and Technology related services to the church community.

KUJICHAGULIA - The 2nd principle of the Nguzo Saba, meaning "Self-Determination;" provides resources, networking and hands-on assistance to persons who are physically, mentally, and/or emotionally challenged.

LEGAL COUNSELING - The Legal Counseling Ministry nurtures the spiritual growth and development of Christian attorneys and other legal professionals, and provides legal assistance to the Trinity community.


MARRIED COUPLES - provide Christian context and insights for couples who are committed to building and maintaining Christian homes.

MATH TUTORIAL - involves elementary age youth in the rigorous discipline needed to increase their understanding of mathematical concepts.

MEDIA MINISTRY - provides services related to the audio, visual, print, photography and telecommunications. Subcommittees included in this ministry are:

Audio Recording
Audio Sound
Photography
Publications
Tape Sales & Duplication
Video Recording & Lights
MEN'S CELL GROUPS - provides a "safe place" for our brothers to "be themselves", sharing their joys and fears, defeats and victories, breaking down the age-old stereotype that says, "Men can't/don't pray."

MEN'S FELLOWSHIP - follow the traditional model of men in the church who are concerned about healthy and wholesome living with Christ at the center of their pilgrimage.

MILLION FOR THE MASTER - implements programs and services that promote the spiritual, economic, social and political viability of the African American community, focusing on bringing the church into the community and bringing the community into the church.

MINISTRY SERVICES - the mission of the Ministry Services Department is to serve the congregation, staff and Pastor in a responsive manner. To create partnerships between ministries and staff that fulfills the overall mission of the Pastor, Executive Minister and Church.

MUSIC MINISTRIES - God has richly blessed us to have a staff of professionally trained, Christian musicians who devotedly teach choir members to make an offering of their voices. Trinity's Music Department is made up of six choirs:

Imani Ya Watume - Swahili meaning "Messengers of Faith" (high school choir)
Little Warriors for Christ - age six years old through 8th grade.
Men's Chorus - over 90 participants (adult men)
Sanctuary Choir - over 200 participants (adult men and adult women)
Women's Chorus - over 200 participants (adult women)
Walaika - 3 to 5 year olds
NEWNESS OF LIFE -encourages new member candidates to begin their journey by providing informational and inspirational materials.

PRISON MINISTRY - visits the prisons every week of the year! To provide tutorial support and to engage the inmates in rap sessions and training programs.

PROJECT JEREMIAH - provides Christian role models and mentors for the boys and girls in elementary schools each week.

READING TUTORIAL - provides educational experiences through tutoring in reading for elementary school students.

SIGN LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS MINISTRY - provides interpreting and transliterating service so that hearing impaired people can become full participants in the shared worship experience, Bible study and other activities.

SINGLES COMMUNITY MINISTRY - addresses unique issues facing single Christian adults.

Never Married
Divorced
Widowed
Single Parent
Same Gender Loving
Upcoming Events
SISTERHOOD - provides an atmosphere where adult women build trust and explore ways to renew their strength for facing and resolving difficulties.

STEWARDSHIP COUNCIL - oversees the New Member orientation, administers the benevolence budget of the church, and assists with the financial needs of members who are enrolled in accredited seminaries.

Tangeni Adult Dance Ministry

Ministry Purpose/Objectives
The purpose of this ministry shall be to praise God in dance. In keeping with the churchs motto of being Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian, we recognize that praise and worship in dance is both an expression of our heritage and an acknowledgement of our faith. Tangeni, as led by the spirit, shall provide fellowship and nurturing to its members through devotion during rehearsals, seminars, retreats and other related activities. Tangeni provides an opportunity for its members to enhance and use their spiritual gifts in order that we may minister unto the church universal and the community at large


TAPE VISITATION MINISTRY - enhances the overall ministry of sick visitation by personally carrying services of worship (audio cassettes) to members and extended family who are hospitalized, shut-in at home and/or extended care facilities.

TRINITY COMPUTER LEARNING CENTER
Trinity Computer Learning Center (TCLC) is a faith-based training facility for Trinity United Church of Christ and the community at large using computer technology to help cross the digital divide.

USHER BOARD - are the doorkeepers in the house of the Lord. Include are:

Youth - 8-12 years old
Young Adult - 13-18 years old
Adult - Men and Women
VILLAGE KEEPERS - ensure that members are safely escorted to and from their cars and in between the 532, 421 and 400 buildings. They provide a presence of protection and security.

WOMEN'S GUILD - is the volunteer corps for the residents of the two Trinity sponsored senior residences.

YOGA MINISTRY - helps participants maintain physical, mental and spiritual fitness.

YOUNG ADULT MINISTRY - nurtures Christians between the ages of 18 and 35 by addressing issues and concerns of young African American Christian adults; and provides a bridge over which teenagers transition into adulthood.

YOUNG WOMEN'S CHRISTIAN WALK - provides character development from a Christian perspective. Activities are supportive of and sensitive to developing cultural and spiritual awareness.

YOUTH CHURCH MINISTRY PARTNERS - are committed to teaching children ages 3-10 years of age about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Through the use of Christian Education materials, music, prayers, and crafts, your child can participate in an atmosphere that is designed to teach them all the elements of worship. 3-year olds must be potty-trained and not wearing pull-ups. Space is limited to a first-come first-served basis at the 7:30 am and 11:00 am services. The space is also limited by the capacity of the classrooms for your child's particular age group.

http://www.tucc.org/ministries.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
62. I don't think it's about Obama's judgment and credibility
It is about a new metric I am dubbing the MMQ, the "Martin/Malcolm Quotient"

No viable national black candidate can go below a MMQ of 19. That's 95% Martin - 5% Malcolm.

Colin Powell's MMQ is infinity... he is seen as 0% Malcolm. (Dividing by zero)

Louis Farrakhan's MMQ is about 0.01

Pastor gate drives Obama's perceived MMQ (among non-AA swing voter types) down to about 9. (90% Martin, 10% Malcolm.)

(This post is half kidding, half serious.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. lol good one
here's part of the credibility problem on this:



"On Page 293 of my edition of "Dreams for My Father," Obama recounts Wright's "The Audacity of Hope" sermon. (I linked a version of this earlier today.)

Obama quotes this passage:

"It is this world, a world where cruise ships throw away more food in a day than most residents of Port-au-Prince see in a year, where white folks greed runs a world in need, apartheid in one hemisphere, apathy in another hemisphereThats the world! On which hope sits!""


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Obamas_Wrig...

Obama knew this guy was making inflammatory statements like "white folks greed" - he put it in his book.

It strains credulity for him to say he didn't know about these statements. I think many people will take a second look at his character.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
63. And it's now about trustworthiness, loyalty and willingness to do
anything to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
avrdream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
76. Good points, as per usual ruggerson.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
77. It's about a smear campaign using guilt by association orchestrated
by the RW slime machine and their Democratic Party candidate of choice, Hillary Clinton, whose only lesson from being the victim of that machine was how to use it.

Nice try. No one died from Obama sitting in church when a minister got carried away. Been there done that, as have countless others. Thousands have died from that IWR vote though, and that the type of judgement seriously matters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
78. There's also that "Unity" vs. "God damn America" dichotomy.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 06:36 AM by Perry Logan
Plus the fact that his supporters think lying about the Clintons is a brilliant strategy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
damndude Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
79. honestly........
as a black man i can safely say, in the black communities when this is seen on television it is a statement of the america that we live in today. what you see in video is the fire and brimstone of an educated black man ministering to hundred if not thousands of lesser educated, lesser advantaged black people watching this radically changing world and still seeing themselves in the second and third class. this is the conversation that black people wrestle with every day, even now i don't believe i am doing in justice in this attempt to not justify but simply to relate.
i am fortunate that i do not have to live as my parents and their parents grew up. but there are so many that do and and even more who fare much worse. for them and joseph wright can be the difference between clinging to you faith in this world and becoming another statistic or or stereotype on one of those behind bars shows. so what you are seeing is the organized anger of a black man trying to motivate other black people to be focused, observant, motivate and informed. frightening things in some white communities. as stated very smartly above, the core issue is about race.
on the surface this another attempt to throw spaghetti at the candidate and see what sticks. his experience, his wife, his minster, his idealism, his faith.
but dressing it up as about his judgment and credibility is a red herring. just because obaman's pastor has certain view of the world does not mean he must share it. i've sat in pews and listened to the preaches rail against gays, Hispanics and women, yet that doesn't make me homophobic, racist or misogynist, but it doesn't mean also that a minister capable of saying things that i don't agree with can't also say something hat lead me to a better understanding or interpretation of an aspect of faith i hadn't considered. i would actually classify myself as anti-religion so a lot of this is really over exaggerated to me.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Jul 29th 2014, 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC