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BREAKING: Clinton campaign to hold 12:15 p.m. ET conference call to attack Obama over pastor/Rezco

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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:29 AM
Original message
BREAKING: Clinton campaign to hold 12:15 p.m. ET conference call to attack Obama over pastor/Rezco
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM by Tropics_Dude83
http://thepage.time.com /

Clinton Campaign to Keep Up the Pressure on Obama Flaps
Clintons Mark Penn and Phil Singer hold 12:15 pm ET media conference call to discuss the state of the race.
Comes after Friday night Chicago dump, where in classic damage-control move, Obama campaign put out information, candidate in deadest part of the weeks news cycle for come-clean-and-turn-the-page sessions on Rezko and Wright.
Watch Obama try to put it all behind him on Foxs Hannity and Colmes here, on CNNs Anderson Cooper 360″ here and on MSNBCs Countdown with Keith Olbermann here.
Will the stories stay alive for talk radio, cable news, and the rest of the media? Only time will tell.
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. big surprise there
sheesh...attack politics is so frigging tiring
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Unless Obama is doing the attacking
then you jump for joy
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. wow you can actually SEE me
jumping for joy here all the way in Florida? Through your computer? I better start turning off my screen when we're having sex...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
133. first rule of thumb: when your opponent is facing implosion you do NOT interfere
Clinton's team is fucking stupid.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. link doesn't work
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Hope And Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Click here..
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
93. ..
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. If they do dump on Obama it'll make them look bad
If Clinton's camp was smart, they'd stay out of it and leave it to Obama to overcome it or not.

If they try to fan the flames, it'll make them look petty and vindictive and sleazy -- especially if Obama does manage to come out of it intact.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. they already are petty, vindictive, and sleazy
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
22. and stupid. Her campaign is nothing if not deeply stupid.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
135. you look stupid now.see what happens when you frough at the mouth
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. If you're going to call someone stupid, you should probably learn how to fucking spell first
dumbass.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. you are wright
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Key word there... IF they were smart. But again, Penn is running the show.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
105. the Klinton Kampaign is burning their bridges and crosses
in Obama's backyard
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
134. It's the most fundamental rule of politics- when your opposition is on the ropes STEP BACKi
and let them implode.

This is beyond rookie mistake.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
145. They passed petty, vindictive & sleazy a looooong time ago.
The mud in the gutter has to look down on them. I'm so disgusted by them - I can't believe it's a "Democrat" pulling this crap.
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. well, as an Obama supporter, I have to say that's probably good for him
Mark Penn doesn't know when to quit. He'll overreach, again.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. If they just tear hell out of each other it means we're good
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 AM by OhioBlues
for another 8 years of hell. They have to stop this. :sigh:
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. If they don't call a press conference, the media will continue to
give Obama a free pass.
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k8conant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. "a free pass" = that's a joke right?
I'm tired of hearing this.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. did you watch the media?
They were stumbling all over themselves to give Obama air time to lie. No questions, no constant pressure like they give Clinton. They allowed him to say, without question, that the mentor he has listened to for 20 years has never said anything like that in the past.

That is BS. and everyone knows it...and Obama is getting away with lying about his relationship.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. They did their job, for a change
Accusations were made and he was given a chance to defend himself. No more or less than Hillary and Gerry Ferraro were.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. I disagree.
Clinton was attacked relentlessly. And will continue to be. Apparently it is ok to attack a female.
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k8conant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. For at least a year Hillary Clinton was trumpeted by the media as frontrunner
and through many of the debates she was the one who was repeatedly allowed to defend her policies. She didn't have to answer the hard questions.


Now, people are saying Obama is getting "a free pass" if he isn't unjustly attacked???? I disagree.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #50
66. trumpted as the front runner, while attacked relentlessly.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:13 AM by Evergreen Emerald
And attacked under the guise of "front runners get more scrutiny." Yet, Obama is clearly the front runner and still gets no scrutiny.

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k8conant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. No---Trumpeted "NOT trumpted" and wasn't attacked much at all by the
media.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. your attempts to re-write history are not going to work.
I have been watching and feel betrayed by the media and the double standard that is our society. I truly believe that if Clinton were a man, she would have had the nomination in the bag.

The media, condoned by Americans, vilify her at every turn.
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k8conant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #76
87. I am NOT rewriting history. If Hillary Clinton WERE a man,
she wouldn't have been Bill Clinton's wife or else she would have BEEN Bill Clinton. The media was certainly giving her a pass until her campaign went INCESSANTLY ballistic after Vermont/Rhode Island/Ohio/Texas.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #87
144. you are really delusional. good gawd
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #66
84. "Attacked"? We must live on different planets
I saw a media fawning all over her and refusing to ask basic questions. They even bought her absurd "35 years of experience" claim. What "attacks" did you see?
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
89. "Obama...still gets no scrutiny."
You don't care much about having any credibility, do you? You certainly know how to mimic your leader: Attack, attack, attack. Honesty has no value.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #89
94. What Scrutiny has Obama received? He said, in a debate that
he has NO ties to REzko other than when he was an attorney in a law firm. No One questioned him about that. He was allowed to get away with that lie.

He is babied by the media who gave him unheard of airtime yesterday to put to bed the Wright mess. And he lied. Of course it is unreasonable for him to suggest that he has never heard Wright those things. He lied and NOT ONE IN THE MEDIA questioned him.

He has NO scrutiny.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #94
110. So what kind of "ties" would you be wanting to see?
The "real estate deal" has been done and done. The relevant contributions have been given to charity. The fact that Obama and Rezko knew each other is obvious, but certainly not criminal. Again, what "ties," specifically, are yet to be revealed? Better yet, define "ties." There are all kinds of "ties" - not all of them nefarious. Enough Drudgery.
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
112. Why the Rezko nonsense again?
The legal authorities said over and over that there was no "there" there. Repeating the name over and over is not going to suddenly break the 1st law of thermodynamics and produce matter out of nothing.

The press spent weeks fawning over Clinton, spending more time on softening her defeats than on analyzing Obama's victories.

Yet the press has dropped the ball in DEMANDING Clinton's tax returns. Why are you not questioning this yourself? Why are neither you nor the press asking where Clinton found $5,000,000 to lend to her campaign?

WHERE ARE THE TAX RETURNS?
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. The Rezko nonsense: he used this bad man to win.
He was a friend, and a supporter. He helped him buy his land, and got him elected. And in return, Obama turned his back while REzko took from the poor--allowing him to destroy neighborhoods while making millions.

Obama is lying about his connections. And no one questions him. Instead they say, yeah, but, where are Clinton's tax returns, you know the ones that she has presented every year as a Senator. There is no there-there.

Obama: Divert and attack. And Lie.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #120
138. Yeah, where are Clinton's tax returns, anyway?
Now there's a story I'd like to see.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #45
77. Oh, get off it....what bullshit....
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:18 AM by Hepburn
"...it is OK to attack a female." When the female is lying DINO like Hillary, what the hell do you expect REAL Dems to do??? Give her a free pas?

Don't you ever get embarrassed posting bullshit like this? Whaaa, whaaa, whaaa...call you and the queen an ambulance! :puke:

h h h h h h h h
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Right, cause we should only call Clinton on perceived lies
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 AM by Evergreen Emerald
and let Obama get away with changing history and not ask one question about it.

The facts of media bias, and misogyny, oh by the way have been proven time and again. Media Matters is all over it, when you get your head out of the toilet you may want to check it out.

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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #82
140. man
a hillary supporter complaining about strange fundraising?
did i wake up on bizzaro world?
i urge you
if you support hillary
do not
i repeat
DO NOT
bring up funny fundraising in any way shape or form
this like everything else you have tried so far
will blow up in your face
arent you tired of standing by the road all covered in soot like wile e coyote yet?
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #45
141. Every time you bring up sexism, I will go postal on your butt.
She knew what she was getting into, stop bring up the fact that she has a vagina, a uterus, and ovaries to make your claim.

If she can't take the heat, get the fuck out of the kitchen, heifer!
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
124. I don't care if they were bed buddies, o.k.?
A pastor gave his opinion. My two give theirs rather extensive, and have for decades. I don't always agree with what they say, particularly outside the pulpit; but, outside the pulpit is not my business. The idea that Obama has to reject someone wholeheartedly is BULLSHIT. He can reject certain remarks, and state why he disagrees with them. Rejecting a PERSON, however, is stupid Rethuglican stuff. It's what the ignorant do. I'm certainly not going to be advocating for it.

"Lying about his relationship" - that sounds like Ken Starr's bunk.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
121. oh that's right...if you repeat it enough, maybe someone will believe you.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. Too bad Hillary didn't devote the same energy to reading the NIE
and stopping Bushitler in his tracks. But as a DLC neocon voting for war was the macho thing to do. Heckuva job Hillary.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. Plan C
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flor de jasmim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
12. On the up side... maybe it will provoke SDs leaning towards Obama to come out
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's what I was thinking. One did come out on Friday.
Even with this swirling in the news. It would be great to see some more come Monday.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. Monster Inc. about to spin more lies, sling more poo....
*yawn*
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Rasmussen shows Obama is collapsing
In last night's tracking poll (just one night sample), he was down by 15 points to Clinton. That means that this pastor scandal has sent him from being up 50-42% to being down 50-35%.

That means that this pastor scandal is so huge that it moved the polls by 30 points.

If my math is correct.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. One night of polling does not a collapse make.
By the way, Hillary lost a couple points head-to-head versus McCain in that same poll.
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. Where are you seeing these numbers?
This link ('updated 3 minutes ago') shows Obama 46% Clinton 45%. A significant drop, but nothing like 50 to 35.
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. No you don't understand
to be down 4 in a 4 day tracking poll average means that he took a HUGE hit on Friday.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. okay, that was before Obama did the media interviews.
Yet he still leads by one point in Rasmussen.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
72. New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele...

Just yesterday it was Obama 50 and Clinton 42.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
43. Yeah - I changed my vote to the McCain/Clinton National Unity Ticket last night
*yawn*
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. your math is not correct. 50-42 is a multiple day average.
50-35 is one day's result.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
62. Link? Because Ras shows he dropped only a few points.
Bringing him back to his standing 5 days ago.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. good - keep making her look like an opportunistic vulture.
that'll soften up her image and drive down those negatives.

right.
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Can we listen in?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. Clinton Camp breaking the "truce" already?
Democratic Rivals Agree to Play Nicer

WASHINGTON (AP) - On this presidential rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton can agree: They sometimes disagree with their trash-talking supporters and will try to cool it. Advisers to the Democratic candidates shed some light Friday on the private chat the two candidates had Thursday on the Senate floor.

The talk lasted three or four minutes in full view of reporters watching on the balcony above who could see them talking, but not hear what they said.

"They approached one another and spoke about how supporters for both campaigns have said things they reject," said Clinton spokesman Phil Singer. "They agreed that the contrasts between their respective records, qualifications and issues should be what drives this campaign, and nothing else."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080314/D8VDE9MO1.html
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. The public is furious about Wright
Check out this CNN poll which on top of the Fixed News poll tends to indicate that there is a tidal wave of fury at Obama over this.

I just can't believe this:

Is Sen. Barack Obama doing enough to distance himself from his controversial former pastor?
Yes 46% 18030
No 54% 21366
Total Votes: 39396
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. It's an online poll, which can be easily manipulated
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Don't think so
Rasmussen showed a 30 point swing over this.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
131. Not only easily manipulated.....
but there's nothing scientific about them. They have a self-selected audience which, as anyone familiar with DU over the years knows, often come swarming from various partisan groups after someone posts a link urging partisan groups to flock to the poll.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
33. So lots of Clinton supporters like CNN.com?
Wow, breaking news there!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
58. 54/46 - that's some tidal wave of fury...
:rofl:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #58
85.  Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele...

Just yesterday it was Obama 50 and Clinton 42.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
109. Tidal wave of Fury?
Wasn't that a failed Keanu Reeves surfing/martial arts movie?
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
64. Just another Shame on you moment that will make her out to be a bigger
:crazy: than she already has shown.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
132. That was also my first thought when I saw this. n/t
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
20. This is state of the race, Penn
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 AM by rocknation
Your client is STILL behind.

The End. Unless you're planning to brag about how well your strategies have worked.

:headbang:
rocknation
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. There's No Way To Hear It, Right? Like, Will We Only Get Some Short Summary Of Certain Sound Bites
said?

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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. A couple days ago, I saw a link somethere to an archive of all these campaign conference calls.
Can't find it now. Maybe someone else knows.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I Meant Like Real Time, Or Almost Immediately Following.
Do you know how long it takes for something to get posted? I'm curious what they're going to say. I'll be disappointed if she comes out too harshly on this.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. The link I saw had them posted within an hour or so after the calls.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:48 AM by jefferson_dem
Watch Halperin's page. He usually has snippets at least. http://thepage.time.com/
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Freedom Train Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #37
98. There's no live link for this?
Is the link you posted where to look for this coverage to be put up afterwards?
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
25. It's REZKO
and Hillary makes me :puke:
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thevoiceofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. Dumbest Clinton move since the flyover strategy
This story will have legs for a while. They came across so much better as being above the fray. Penn just can't help himself.

Stupid idiots. And talking right in the middle of a dead drunken weekend. Stupid idiots.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
34. So much for "Democratic Rivals Agree to Play Nicer"
The meeting between Clinton and Obama on the Senate floor would supposedly help tone down the attacks on fellow Democrats. Oh well, that lasted about a day and a half. It was a pleasant 36 hours. :(

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080314/D8VDE9MO1.html
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BadgerLaw2010 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
36. Considering how badly this hit Obama in tracking polls, this is logical.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
38. The Clintons are going out ugly
Too bad this is the rotten cherry on top of their legacy.
They could have done it with class.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. All Hillary wants is her opponet vetted...
That is supposedly the media's job. They've been falling down day after day praising Obama as the "one"!

We've all stood around waiting and asking, "ONE WHAT"? Hillary is doing what the media should have been doing! Their JOBS!

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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #47
56. Vetted, like she constantly refuses to be?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:23 AM by dmesg
Release the damn tax returns so we can see where you got your tens of millions of dollars and we'll talk about "vetting".

Unless there's some big shark lurking in the water we don't know about, I'll take a shady real estate developer and an intemperate pastor over the skeletons in Clinton's closet any day.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. What planet do YOU live on??????? The press has vetted her for decades!!
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. The planet where most of the attacks on her have stuck
The press has been attacking her for decades. You seem to think that's the same as "vetting". The point of "vetting" is the press looks at your closet and doesn't find any skeletons. That's not what happened with either Clinton.

If she gets the nomination, her media free ride ends. They'll bring up Hsu. And Gupta. And Rich. And the Chindia connections. And the library donors. And they'll ask where she got her millions of dollars. They'll ask about a lot of the other pardons. They'll probably even look back into whitewater. They'll look at Bill's alleged affairs since 2000. In short, they'll start doing all the stuff they have assiduously avoided doing to vet her.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #67
96. SHOW US HER TAX RETURNS, HER EARMARKS, AND THE LIBRARY DONORS
How could we take a chance on her in the general when she won't come clean on her finances?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #96
103. whow ho----did you look at that new poll
New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele...

Just yesterday it was Obama 50 and Clinton 42.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
111. Yes, that's what Hillary keeps saying.
Unfortunately not true.

Hillary Clinton: vet-free since the last millenium.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #47
65. no, all Hillary wants
is for her to WIN.

Hillary isn't 'vetted' yet in this campaign. She's never been 'vetted' for President. She isn't Bill.



peace~
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #47
69. And all we want is HER vetted.
Tax Returns (2000-2007), Library Donors, White House Papers, etc, etc.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. here is something of interest
New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele...

Just yesterday it was Obama 50 and Clinton 42.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #81
90. So he's back to 5 days ago, in the heart of a scandal.
Cool, she really sucks ass if she can't overcome him through this manufactured scandal.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #90
101. Obama is really good at manufacturing self-inflicted scandals..
the problem is he is a liability America can't afford. We need a Democrat in the White House in 09.' He's not it!

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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #101
148. You mean a corpo-dem enabler who will sweep Bush's
criminality under the rug? That is what we need? She a Corpo, a fully owned-subsidiary.

More of the same just gay friendly.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #148
153. No someone capable of winning the WH in November.. Your candidate can't do it!
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 PM by Tellurian
His credibility is shot because he's been caught in so many Lies. The Republicans are looking forward to dissecting him like a Lab experiment because he's made it so easy for him. Biology 101=Obama
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
106. Resco stuff to sink in also-----stay tuned
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #106
147. Was it the Chicago Trib that let go of Obama's Rezko wrongdoing
today? Did you miss that?
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #147
154. Nope..there was an update detailing another on of Obama's Lies..
Obama said Rezko donated between $80-$100,000 total to all his campaign. He finally admitted the number was more like $250,000+.

The "LIES" are what will sink him. When a prosecutor sees a discrepancy like that, it's like waving red meat in front of a dog..They keep on digging when they smell blood.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #69
100. The GOP spent $60m getting Hillary vetted..
all it got them was -0- for their trouble. Weren't you around for Ken Starr?

The scandal Obama has unleashed with Rev Wright, hating America and blaming the people in the Towers for 9/11 is something EVERY American can identify with. It goes beyond the pale and speaks to the suffering endured by all of America.
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #100
113. How about something from the current millenium?
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
115. Why would the repukes show their hand?
:spray:

You think they would put their most juicy stuff out there now during the primary season? You REALLY believe that they found nothing? You think they are that stupid?

You're kidding right? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #100
125. Yes, I was around.
:eyes: And that was 7 years ago. And since they, Bill has only increased his shady dealings, and she is complicent via donors through the library, her campaign - and potentially her campaign loan. I want to see tax returns, library donors, earmark disclosure, and her white house papers. So I, as a democrat, can properly vett her.
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #100
149. So impeachment is "zero". Bush elected is "zero".
Everything those criminals have perpatrated since 1/2001 is thanks to the Clinton factor.

Clinton is not change, Clinton is part of the sham. The illusion that there is any difference between Dem and Repub is the Clinton charade, and you guys are falling for it. Reality is they are Repug lite.

Got War?
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #47
127. All Clinton wants is power and she will destroy ANYONE who gets in the way.
I'm rapidly going beyond dislike for her into the realm of pure loathing.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
139. Her opponent vetted? Where are her 2006 Tax Returns?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
39. "state of the race"
interesting.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
42. The super delegates can end this anytime now.
Just choose one already and get done with it.

I don't know why they want to see their party eaten from within with stuff like this.
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leftrightwingnut Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
48. Hey! Doesn't Mark Penn work for McCain?????
What is going on here? This is surreal. :crazy:
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
49. OP, I was speaking to a member of Clinton's press team about 30 minutes ago
In her Virginia office, and, she said Penn wasn't going to make Rev. Wright a point to a news conference. She said they didn't want to get involved in it because it is getting so much attention in the media. Now, that's what she said, but, I can't confirm or deny what Penn will do.
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. I think the extent of it that he'll be asked several questions about it
And as far as Obama,

As sad as this makes me, I think he's finished. He will not be the democratic nominee and he will not be the president. He frigging has no chance to carry a single red state now.
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
118. Time to use some Pledge on that crystal ball. It's distorting the future. n/t
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #49
78. Thanks
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
51. Here Hillary,
have some rope. No, really, take all you want. :P
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. doesn't Monster's campaign understand
that if they pursue the Wright story they are playing with fire in the African American community? Are they that myopic, or just that culturally insensitive?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. Are they myopic, or just that culturally insensitive?
Yes. :P
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
53. Oops -- that's a mistake, according to the Rovian playbook...
In classic Rove, the candidate's own campaign gives the appearance of being above the fray. This is important. Allowing people to see you getting your own oar in dilutes the effectiveness of the smear (can't sling mud with getting dirty in the public's eyes).


What does this tell us? Most likely, they think that Obama said what people needed to hear on this matter, and they're afraid the iron is cooling off before they can get their licks in.


So they've decided to go for it.

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leftrightwingnut Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. That's a good sign Rove isn't working for Clinton...directly.
Penn works for McCain and Clinton. Isn't Rove involved somehow with Penn and Black?

I agree: bad move. I've been very disappointed with Clinton's amateurish campaign. I don't get it...
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Thanky---we knew Hillary did not use the Rove hankbook.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
60. *****New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
New Rasmussen poll; Obama down 4, Clinton up 3. O 46 C 45.
http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/ele...

Just yesterday it was Obama 50 and Clinton 42.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. okay
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. So after all the bullshit, Hillary still can't pull ahead.
Awesome.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #68
75. You're very aware that it's a three day tracking poll
so why are you pretending that you're not?
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #75
86. Because if it was the death knell that you and your folks were hoping it would be....
he would have dropped under her from the outset of the "scandal" hitting the average.


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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #86
97. I Guess Some Sleep Didn't Do You Much Good. A 14-18 Point Drop Out Of The Gate Is Horrendous.
And this story has only just begun to filter its way into people's minds. To sit there and think that the poll is anything but a really bad initial sign, shows someone so clouded in their bias that reality no longer exists.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. Oh Shit. That's A Bad Sign Right There.
But it'll take a few days to see if it grows or if it's just one of those temporary blips that bounce back quickly.

But still, wow.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
92. Don't forget the previous 2 days Hillary took the hit
Obama probably surged to 50% based on Hillary taking a big hit the previous 2 days for the Ferraro fiasco. So now Obama it taking the hit and by midweek they will be right back to where they started off early last week, a few points apart one way or the other. Things will balance out over time.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Maybe, But I'm Not Quite Sure. This Has Far Longer Legs Than The Ferraro Thing, And His Hit May Be
just the start.

We have a MINIMUM 14 point drop out of the gate here, and that's even taking the gains from the Hillary fiasco into account. This is a huge starting hit for him, but it will definitely take a bit to see if it is just a few day thing. I'm just a bit surprised to see such a dramatic drop already.
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Jersey Devil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
99. All I am saying is that the starting point may have been artificial
to begin with. For Obama to have surged 3 points in two days to 50% in two days the numbers had to be similar for Hillary for those days. Then you have the dissipation of the Ferraro problem combining with Obama's Wright problem and the drop may seem more precipitous than it really is. But, as you said, we'll see after a while.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #60
74. So he lost a gain over 5 days?
And? What's your point... She's still losing.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. It's Only Taking 1 Day Of The Rolling Avg Into Account. It's A MINIMUM 14 Point Drop. MINIMUM.
And this has only just begun. That's a reallllllly bad sign. But it also could be quite temporary. We might see in a few days that he bounces right back. We may also see that he sinks like a stone. Time will tell.
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haymakeragain Donating Member (841 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
150. Wow, I think Obama has done surprisingly well, considering all the
ridiculous, jingoistic fraudulistics out there screaming like scared little kittens afraid that the Rev. black bogeyman is going attack them and their precious children.

Doesn't it bother you guys that you sound just like Hammity? I mean really, you sound EXACTLY like him. How very sad. Our country is sooooooooo fucked.
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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
71. Great news! Every time those two ridiculous fucks open their mouths, it only helps Obama.
Please--attack, attack, attack!
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #71
116. DING DING DING! Milkyway, you're our grand prize winner!
Great news! Every time those two ridiculous fucks open their mouths, it only helps Obama.
When someone posted in Late Breaking News that Penn had said Obama can't win Pennsylvania, the mods locked it!

:headbang:
rocknation
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #71
137. ha ha--sucks doesn't it . penn got asked 2x about wright. ha ha
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
80. Wonder if Penn has coordinated with Charlie Black so McCain
can give some sort of amplifying statement? Ya'll know that Penn is Charlie's boss and they are doing the Republican two-step with these two campaigns. I really feel sorry for how the Hillary people are being played.
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
83. Even McCain has already said something about this
It wasn't rude at all, I saw it on youtube. But Hillary's campaign is going to?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ed1Tb-vrEww
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #83
102. OMG-Mccain is a CLASS act
What a hnorable good man. It's funny that it would take Senator Mccain to make this Obama supporter feel better. "I know that Senator Obama does not share those views."
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #83
108. wow.
This doesn't mean he'll disavow every attack of this nature in the future, but... I've got to hand it to him, those were exactly the words that needed to be said.

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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #108
117. Yeah I oppose him politically
But I LOVE John Mccain, the person. He's a decent honorable guy.

Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, is neither decent or honorable. She is, indeed, a monster.
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #117
126. I wouldn't get all lovey dovey with McLame, all he has to do is play nice
and let the 527's do the damage.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
114. That deep sigh at Hannity showed he was tired of it. Good to see this, but
McCain knows he has the same situation with his fundamentalist preachers and his own spiritual advisor.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #114
155. 1 thing we can be sure has been "vetted" thoroughly is Hannity's collectn of Wright videos
and audios. There must have been hundreds of hours of them (the new pastor said there were 3500 hrs of sermons over 36 years), and all Hannity really could come up with was:

-- one truthful but politically unacceptable statement about US violence overseas vs. 9/11, and

-- one speculation about the provenance of AIDS compared to Nazi-like intentional government malpractice on unsuspecting "experimental" African-American syphilis patients.
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
88. What was/is being said at the conference call? Does anyone know?
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
104. Barack coe back quick on this one. Have your press conferenc e ready to go. Ok HRC we're ready. =)
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM by barack the house
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
107. Hope they bring some Tax Returns. Everyone else has. -)
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #107
119. McCain hasn't.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
122. False alarm: They didn't take the "Pastor Bait"
Clintons Mark Penn and Phil Singer hold Saturday afternoon media conference call calling out Obama on Rezko, requesting he release all documentation on transactions.

Both pass up opportunity to criticize him on Rev. Wright issue when repeatedly asked by reporters.

http://thepage.time.com /
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Good for them
Unless they were behind calling attention to the tapes, and I don't believe they were, Clinton and her campaign have regained a little bit of respect in my eyes. I hope Clinton supporters will follow their candidates' lead and stand with us in fighting off a right wing smear attempt instead of joining in the chorus or using it to attack Obama as unelectable. And I hope Obama supporters will refrain from blaming Clinton for this unless evidence surfaces that they were behind it.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #122
146. Wow.
That's the first smart thing they've done.
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Tropics_Dude83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
123. Details on what Penn and Singer said
Clintons Mark Penn and Phil Singer hold Saturday afternoon media call calling out Obama on latest Rezko developments, request he release all documentation on transactions.
Both pass up opportunity to address Rev. Wright issue when repeatedly asked by reporters.

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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. The Clinton campaign is a laughing stock.
Obama released his tax returns, his earmarks and sat down with the editors of the Tribune to answer any Rezko questions and Clinton demands to see transaction documentation! :rofl:

Until Clinton releases her tax returns, earmarks, and library donors, she should STFU!
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #123
130. I am soooo glad they did not address the Rev Wright issue.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #130
136. Look upstream--many obamafolk were froughing at the mouth-. Penn stayed quiet
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #123
152. Did they address what the holdup is on the release of Billary's tax returns?
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
151. More misinformation
this site is becoming more and more useless. I used to come here for spirited discussion and information from like minded folks. Nowadays I can barely find any correct info on here...just smears, lies and bullshit.
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