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So, what did you white people think happened in a black church?

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:13 AM
Original message
So, what did you white people think happened in a black church?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 AM by theboss
(And, I ask this a white man?)

DU has always had a strong anti-religion undertone. And I said three years ago on a thread, we needed to be careful with that because 20 percent of Democratic voters are black. And black people are the most religious people in this country by a large degree.

And now white folks got a peak inside a black church and are pooping their pants.

What did you think happen in there?

This is an institution that rose up during slave times.
This is an institution that was the only black-controlled entity during Jim Crow times.
This is an institution that created the Civil Rights movement.
This is an institution that gave you Martin Luther King. And Jesse Jackson. And Al Sharpton.
Moreover, this is an institution that gave you Ray Charles, James Brown and even somone like Kanye.

Did you think it was a English tea party?
Are you shocked that there is anger there?
Are you really this clueless?

(I should point out that not all black churches are the same. But I think that if white people knew how many Rev. Wrights were out there, they would freak out).
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hehe, exactly.
Given, not all Black churches are the same, but....yeah.

:)
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hueyshort Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
151. My boss is black. Many of my co-workers are black.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:49 PM by hueyshort
I like all of them.
They have the same opportunities that I do.

What planet is Wright living on?

We have a candidate who wins in white states, and Wright
screams this crap?

And "enlightened" Obama takes his children to hear it?

Obama is privilged and richer than I am. How the fuck can he
not be accountable for having a racist "spiritual advisor"?

How does he have the NERVE to call himself a "Unifier" while
subscribing to Wright's militant, racist religion?
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #151
206. Well if you believe equality has been acheived...
then you're building your point of view based on a flawed premise. Just because you know some black people who have acheived success to match and surpass your own, doesn't mean that you understand what may have been required for them to acheive it. If you think that blacks and whites in this country start off with equal opportunity, then I don't know what to tell you except that you may want to more closely examine your conclusions.

The anger expressed by Reverend Wright isn't just the rantings of a delusional man. It represents a very real and very deep anger and resentment that is permeates the black community, due in large part to the racism that most every single one of them has experienced.
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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
157. It's not a "black church"
It is a mixed congregation. The pastor was black. But the congregations has blacks, whites, hispanics.

That keeps getting overlooked.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. White people slay me
K&R
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
52. me too
and i'm white!
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
59. Let's hope not.
(snicker)
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hueyshort Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
149. Do all Black Ministers
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:43 PM by hueyshort
preach militant, separatist race rhetoric? Like you shouldn't vote for Clinton because she's white? etc.

Do none of them oversee biracial congregations and preach brotherly love?

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Yes We Did Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #149
159. That's not what he did.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:58 PM by demdog78
And I would expect you to understand that.
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MS68 Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #159
202. Comparing the two of them with an obvious
slant toward one of them is preaching against one - I believe. If nothing else, I'd like to see their tax-free status revoked - just like I do the Evangelicals that preached for Bush. It has NO business in a church and if that's what they want to do in their pulpit, fine, but they get to pay taxes too.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #149
180. Do you always make stuff up or is this a special occasion?
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Danzo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
74. That's racist.
You made a sweeping generalization based on race.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #74
88. You must cry when watching Def Comedy Jam
White people have it so rough.
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Danzo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #88
101. Putting Words In My Mouth Again I See
I agree that caucasians tend to be privileged. Is that justification to say "(they are laughable to me)" which is what Sniffa said.

How exactly does Sniffa's statement bring us any closer to a colorblind society?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #101
108. The goal of a colorblind society is often the goal of whites who want blacks to stop whining
I honestly don't know any black people who want the world to be 'color-blind' except maybe Lisa Bonet. They just want to be treated fairly.
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Danzo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. Well that's not MY Goal
I respect the rights of African Americans to express their opinions. I'm also 100% in favor of blacks being treated fairly.

But it IS possible to achieve these things without making SWEEPING generalizations about caucasians, isn't it?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. Sure. But it is not fun.
Join the NAAWP if you are worried about it.
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Danzo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. LOL!
Nah, I don't think it's IDEAL to disparage people of any race, including caucasians, but it doesn't bother me THAT MUCH if people rip on caucasians.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #108
119. Strange, I thought a "colorblind" society was Dr. King's goal too.
I guess not. All that stuff about the "content of their character rather than the color of their skin" was just bullshit, huh.

Bake
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #119
120. He didn't want blacks to stop being black.
I doubt he wanted Ebenezer Baptist to become an Anglican Church.
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Danzo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. Probably Not...
...but I'm not sure that he was in favor of blanket generalizations about people of ANY race, though.
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hueyshort Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #120
154. so being black means preaching hatred of whites?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:52 PM by hueyshort
Then for sure, a black man should not be leading this country of
many, many ethnicities. If what you say is true, then a black man
would be too limited and in too narrow focus.

I'll tell you what though. If this was reversed, and Hillary Clinton attended
a church with a minister preaching segregation, you wouldn't be
rationalizing.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
207. How about treating people "Equally"
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 11:54 PM by polmaven
Color blind is a good thing, just as gender blind is...."fairly" is not good enough...
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #74
191. That's a white definition of racism
A lot of African Americans see racism not as generalized prejudice based on race, but as the impunity to enact that prejudice.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
199. God damn me!
heck I deserve it. :evilgrin:

but God help me. :hi:
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Was Rev Wright alive in Chicago during the Emmitt Till funeral?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:19 AM
Original message
He would have been 7 and in Philadelphia
But if he was attending church then, he certainly knew about it.
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against all enemies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. Thanks, real facts. I saw the NPTV special on Till and it made me mad.
I don't know how I would feel if I was black, but I imagine I would be forever bitter.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
36. Amazing
It is amazing to me that all Black Americans are not extraordinarily bitter all the time. To get up and face your fellow countrymen and know that you will be put down and held down and kicked in the teeth every damned day, and yet still have an indomitable positive attitude to succeed and be happy is absolutely amazing. I've thought this many years now and have used it as inspiration in my every day life. People like MLK and Harold Washington (former mayor of Chicago) and yes Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are heroes to me. People who succeeded in rejecting bitterness and then ultimately changing society for the better through hard work and yes, hope. People who refuse to surrender to hate, bitterness and failure.

If white America can focus on the similarities they have with black America, we truly will be able to overcome anything. I think we are on the cusp of a great conscious decision to do so. We, as a country, pulled up this point before. 40 years ago in 1968, was the last time we've even considered making such a leap at unity. I think we will be able to do it this time.

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #36
122. Amazing ~ your post was awesome
As an African American I am reminded of what Rodney King said, I think it was one of the greatest questions of the 20th Century... "Can't we all get along?"

We need to talk about Poverty and Justice and Recession and Iraq and....

It is beyond a DREAM to imagine that for this election, we could be if not color blind or gender blind but just "forget about it."

Let's make that leap folks and there is no better place to make that leap than DU, IMO.

If we, Progressive Democrats, can't make that leap, no group can.
And the message for all the candidates should be Yes. WE. Can. make that leap.

"If white America can focus on the similarities they have with black America, we truly will be able to overcome anything. I think we are on the cusp of a great conscious decision to do so. We, as a country, pulled up this point before. 40 years ago in 1968, was the last time we've even considered making such a leap at unity. I think we will be able to do it this time."
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. Emmet Till's crime was whistling at a white female when he was a young teen
whistling at a white woman, vigilante sentence - capital punishment
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #43
68. Alleged whistling. That was the excuse to justify flat out murder.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #68
152. the thing was, the whites always got away with it -- ALWAYS...
No matter how heinous the crime, they would always just sit there, and smirk, and say you couldn't really prove it, and let each other off the hook.

But when blacks offended against whites -- whoops, time for a pogrom!


:eyes:

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
160. He was a child.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
156. Read Gwendolyn Brooks' " The Last Quatrain of the Ballad of Emmett Till".
It's one of the best pieces of poetry I've ever read. Brooks taught me more about "race" in this country than just about anyone else. When she started submitting her work, her publisher asked for more of "that colored" material. They didn't know she was black.

http://www.starve.org/teaching/intro-poetry/last-quatra...
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. LOL!
:kick:
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zabet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 AM
Original message
I have been to a black church many times
and never heard the kind of talk
that Wright was condemned for.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. I don't think it's a daily occurrence
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:23 AM by theboss
But it is certainly part of the tradition.

What it really comes down to is that Americans have made wimps out of all our institutions. Even the "Fire and Brimstone" preacher is considered scary now.
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. Can I get a witness?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Testify
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. English tea party
Yeah, that's it. :)
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well, I don't go to a black church, I go to MCC
Where we have GLBT's, straight folks, black and white and asian folks. So, I would say, MCC and my church is the most diverse church in the country. My church doesn't see color. And I have been to MCC's all over the country and they are all the same.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. And that's fine for you. But are you calling for integration of traditionally black churches?
Your church has its role. His church has its role.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
166. There are many diverse churches, and everyone sees color
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 04:40 PM by kwassa
I hate that expression. Unless we are blind, we see color, and anyone who says otherwise is LYING.

Now, seeing color does not mean that we judge by color. That is something else.

Most churches in this country are still segregated, though, because that is also a legacy of hundreds of years of segregation. Blacks had to often create whole new denominations in order to worship at all.

And an inner-city Chicago church will reflect it's local demographic, which is a black neighborhood. So sit on your high diverse horse, the reality is that you are parochial in your church knowledge. Going to church with people of color doesn't mean you know anything about them in any serious way.
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
190. "My church doesn't see color" - how can we celebrate diversity if we don't see it?
The rainbow flag is, to me, a powerful symbol of celebrating that diversity of humanity, and not of diminished vision.

We are not a melting post, nor are we rows of corn, but rather a beautiful swirling mix of all types of personalities and points of view. All careening through space together on a planet with a fragile, evolving biosphere, in an enormous universe.

But that's just my take on it.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
8. I've been saying this for days--I always figured it was a safe haven
for the black community to meet and vent about unfairness and injustice, in addition to worship. What harm does it do? Did Wright inspire race riots and flag burning? Of course not. It's perhaps like therapy for the community, I'm guessing, and white folks like me have absolutely no business prying and judging.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. It doesn't inspire race riots, but don't you think it keeps hatred & anger
alive and coninuing?

I'm not black, but you asked what I thought went on in black churches. I THOUGHT their services were mostly singing gospel hymns. The closest I've gotten to visiting a black church service was on TV, and what I saw was a large community of people singing with the choir, praising God, and it was all very positive, uplifting, and EVERYONE looked like they were enjoying their participation.

Everyone has the option to chose what type of religious community they want to join. For me, I would never want to hear sermons like Rev. Wright gives, NOR would I EVER set foot inside Hagee's church, or Falwell's, or Robertson's, or anyone like them. I think no matter what race or religion they are promoting, all of them are encouraging the continuatuion of HATE of something or someone.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
49. You speak as if blacks and whites are on equal footing--they are not. What excuse do
the Hagees and Falwells of the world have, to hate and rail against ANYONE? White Protestant men rule the world. And yet, they do spew hate and foment an us-against-them that's wholly manufactured to frighten their flock into believing that the American Way, and God's Will, are under attack. Wright is an older black man, and certainly seems to have residual anger, which is probably present among his congregants as well--but that's understandable, to me. The black community DOES have a right to be angry on some level. They DO still face obstacles, they ARE still facing discrimination--one need only look at Ferraro's comments about Obama only being where he is because of his skin color--How LUCKY he is to be a black man in America! Ridiculous. I couldn't care less about Wright's over-the-top rabble-rousing, or Obama's affection for his "crazy uncle"--when Obama actually says these nutty things, or actually does something wrong, then I'll worry.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #49
63. I DO think blacks & whites are on an equal footing. I believe the
inequality is not between black & white, but between class. I'm NOT equal to Donald Trump or Bill Gates, and I never will be! I was born into a lower middle class family, and although we are doing ok, we're STILL lower middle class. I was raised to treat everybody fairly, and if you had a problem with someone, you tried to work it out. Sometimes you just can't so you go on with your life, but you don't hold a gridge and HATE is a sin! I can honestly say I don't think I've ever hated anyone. As much as I dislike what Shrub and his cronies have done to our Country, I don't HATE HIM. I just want him out of our lives.

I understand that Rev. Wright is an old man with a lot of bad memories, but that doesn't give him the right to revive that hatred in others...many of whom are young. Things would be better for EVERYONE if the attrocities of the past were burried with the people who did them.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. So...racism is over...Well, that's good news
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM by theboss
Do you think that reality might be a tad starker on the freakin' South Side of Chicago than in whatever gumdrops and lollipops world you are living in?
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. NO racism is NOT OVER! I wish it was! But I think the preachers
on all sides who keep reviving the hate of the past are contributing to it's continuation.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. The day I "got it"
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
73. Why are you bringing up the sins of the past?
Don't you know we are all equal now?

And - honestly - no one in Boston is racist. It's a liberal utopia.

(If anything, this whole Wright controversy is proving that white liberals might be as out of touch with reality as I always suspected they were).
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #73
82. You suspected correctly...
It's wild. :crazy:

An anecdote: I grew up in the uber liberal Pioneer Valley in Western MA, and I once saw an ad for a "White Guilt Support Group"

No lie. :o
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #82
92. I'm what Chris Matthews calls a 'white ethnic'
Which is a stupid term but works for our purposes.

We are Democrats but often consider "liberal Democrats" to be unbearable pussies.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. Hehe...He's not the only one who uses that term...
I'm reading a book by Dr. Cornel West, and he uses that term as well.

Unbearable is right... :puke:

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MediaBabe Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #63
147. A good philosophy for living
I've been around hate and try my best to eliminate it from my life. Life is easier without hate and grudges.

I hope somebody doesn't try to reduce your message down into a soundbite to ridicule.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
176. Grab a fucking clue.
If you're a white man, you are never going to be pulled over driving a nice car in an upscale community. You won't have taxi drivers swerving to avoid you because of your color. And that's just for starters.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #33
57. But but but but....I thought black people were happy!!! And that they sang!!!
I used to go to Easter services at an AME Church near me...just because.

The service was sometimes 4 hours long. Nothing that lasts four hours is all fun and games. There were hymns. And there was praising of God. There was also reflections on Christ's suffering. And on the suffering of the community. And a lament of the state of the world. And more praise for God's mercy. And more singing.

Church is not a James Brown concert, I'm sorry to say.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #57
117. amen amen
im a white devil but was invited to go to church by a co worker in tennessee
we were both baptists and he was worried about my soul as i was new in town and had not connected spiritually with a local church
so i went with him his wife and a bunch of kids
some his some just riding along
it was the longest day of jesus i ever spent
we do an hour at the white church
maybe 2 with sunday school
we got there at 1030 and didnt leave til after 3
the pastor covered every issue from heaven to the local school goings on
we sang prayed listened
it was like a town meeting with some jesus thrown in
but i left feeling like everything was gonna work out
very uplifting as it turned out
and the choir
like the angels came down to sing gods praises
good snacks too
i was in that town 2 years and never really found another place where i felt the presence of god so closely
so
even tho it was looked upon as strange by both races in the town
once or twice a month i would attend the sunday sessions or come to wednesday night prayer meetings
and for some reason both sides found it tolerable
imagine that
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #117
124. My grandpa was an elder; My uncle was a minister
My mom was a Sunday School teacher.
And my dad is a lapsed Catholic.
I know from church. I've been in hundreds of them across the country of all demoninations.

And I have never been more welcomed than I was in that AME church on Easters. Granted, I stood out like a sore thumb. And I'm sure people thought I was there for a show of some kind. But I received dozens of hugs and invitations.

I was rarely hugged in my home church growing up.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #33
102. By that analogy Spike Lee should not have made, 4 Little Girls
Me thinks that some white democrats just want to avert their eyes

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118540 /

Jet Magazine published photos of Emmet Till's mutilated body

If your analogy is correct, that was wrong

Was it also wrong for James Cameron a survivor of a lynching in Indiana to found the Black Holocaust Museum?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

James Cameron; Survived Lynching, Founded Museum

By Yvonne Shinhoster Lamb
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 13, 2006; Page B07

James Cameron, 92, who at 16 survived being lynched from a maple tree in Marion, Ind., and decades later was present when the U.S. Senate apologized for its failure to enact federal anti-lynching laws, died June 11 of congestive heart failure at a hospital in Milwaukee.

Mr. Cameron, who kept a piece of the rope that had scarred his neck moments before he was spared, was the only known survivor of a lynching attempt. An astute student of history, he lectured widely and in 1988 founded the Black Holocaust Museum in Milwaukee.

The museum, one of the first of its kind in the country, explores the story of African Americans from slavery to the present. Mr. Cameron started the museum in his basement, and it gained widespread support as a venue of reconciliation.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
106. that's a very astute assessment...
To be able to rail against injustices from the pulpit gives the congregation a safety valve to vent. Without it... imagine the pent-up frustration. It's essential to the very survival of the community.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. Back up a step
I have visited many "Black Churches". Ones that teach love instead of hate, forgiveness instead of destructive anger, and reconciliation instead of divisiveness. Defending the crap this Wright spews is hypocritical and unbelievable. To stereotype black churches in the way you did is incredibly prejudicial.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Is "fire and brimstone" hate?
Did you ever read "Alas, Babylon?" It's kind of a relic now, but still a fun book.

Revelation 18:2

With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Please explain
If the shoe were on the other foot most on here would cry foul and go after the pastor and the candidate. I am trying to figure this out...Is it a double standard, hypocrisy, or a lack of common sense?

So it is ok to spew hate messages now? If so, then I am disgusted.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. What is the hate message?
His sermon is "chickens came home to roost."

That is, America's sins against the world came back to her. That is part of a long long tradition of American theology.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Well I for one do not HATE America
Is this what this has come down to? It is good to tell people to ask God to Damn America? Is that what you want? You do not think this is hate? I have family and kids and I do not want God to Damn our country.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Every generation has been told they are in the end times
(And don't confuse "end times" theology with Rapture theology).

It really comes down to the type of God you believe in. And the African American tradition has created a slightly different God than a European tradition.

There is a strong strain of Calvinism in "white" churches, where God is blessing the righteous on Earth.

That doesn't really exist in the black church, because - in 1895 in Alabama - if you went by God's blessings on Earth, you have to come to the conclusion that God had abandoned black folk.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. So you don't mind...
anything your government has done in your name. Maybe we have to go all the way down to the bottom before we realize that Uncle Sam is an equal opportunity slave master. We are all going down with the ship, and yet what you find really offensive is a black man railing against the injustices of our country.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. Nope
You cannot call me a racist because I object to hate speech. Nice Try.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. Then why are you here?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:09 AM by stillcool47
You don't care that your government has killed over a million Iraqi's! You don't care that health care is a racket? You don't care that our jobs have left? You don't care that our economy is going down the tubes? You don't care about the dis-proportion of wealth in this country? All you care about is a black preacher, in a black church, speaking to a black congregation about living black in a white man's world. Why bother?
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. Some DUers need to learn what "hate speech" is
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
96. Take the word white out his comments
Then put the word black in. Now have them coming out of ANY white pastor. Most would call that hate speech. So what I am hearing here is that there is a double standard. So we will never get anywhere regarding race if we do not have equality. That was the dream. That one day we would not have these distinctions.

So either you believe in the dream or you believe that it is ok for blacks to say hateful things about whites but not the other way around.

I simply believe it is wrong on both counts.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #96
114. If you switch white for black, they become nonsensical
Let's try it.

"Barrack Obama has NO IDEA what it's like to be called a Nigger!!"

I mean, you should be in a mental institution if you say that.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
140. I have learned a lot...
in this Primary Season. George Bush was the best teacher I ever had regarding our Bombs R'U.S. Interventionist foreign policy, The Rich and the Super-Rich, and the United States of Corporations. This Primary Season is teaching me how it is that ordinary people can't get it together and unite against the wrongs that their government is doing.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. Have you heard the videos?


1. God needs to Damn us.
2. White people are not following the teachings of Black Jesus.
3. We deserved 911

Even Obama said they were wrong.. Is he telling the truth or is he lying?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
136. Yes I did...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:50 PM by stillcool47
What do you have a problem with? Many people believe that Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Many believe that Jesus said we are all our brother's keeper. Many believe in the Ten Commandments.
And many believe in such things as cause and effect. Many of us even read..

Published in 2000

p8
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.

p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors ."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a ClA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.



Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene. Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War...
----------
"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowback. Empire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.

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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
78. He didn't "ask" God to damn America
he said that in light of certain historical truths, like slavery, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, etc., it is less God Bless America than it is God Damn America because God damns the killings of innocent people. Do you have a different holy text than I do? One in which God approves of the killing of innocents?
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #78
105. I read it as a statement of fact, not a request
And before anyway comes back with Falwell and gays and 9/11...the problem with Falwell is not that he believes that gays caused 9/11. He can believe whatever damn fool thing he wants.

It's the problem that he has real political power and he seeks to use it to punish what he deems as sinners.

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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #32
155. Do you think God WILL damn America?
Are you afraid that it will come true?

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Chisox08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
193. If you listened to what he was saying.
He was calling out the evils of our country. He was calling out the US for all of its killing in other countries. Our policies in the Middle East gave raise to Al-queada and Osama Bin Laden. Our support of tyrants such as the Al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia, Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the other dictators we propped up over in the Middle East was on of the reasons behind 9-11. I'm not saying that America is completely at fault because it was the fault of the guys who flew those planes into the WTC on 9-11 and the guys who planned it fault. He was also calling America out on its racist past and present. He was calling America out on it how disproportionately poor the educational system is in the Black comunity. He was calling America out on why there are a disproportionately number of Blcak men in jail as compared to other races. Sometimes we have to call America out when it does wrong and praise it when it is right.
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ristruck Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. Read this posted by Koko01...Could not have said it better
Obama titled a book "Audacity of Hope" from Wright's sermon, he was friend and mentor
to him for 20 years...married him and baptized their two children..and now Obama denounces Wright's opinions? Reverend Wright seems to preach that "Rich White Men" are responsible for all the world's problems. That "White People" have not followed the teachings of the "Black Jesus." That's pretty inflammatory, separatist rhetoric for Obama's Pastor and Mentor to be preaching. It will turn off a lot of people who will see Wright as the opposite of David Duke. The RW Repugs are going to gleefully point that out. How do we know what Obama really believes in his heart? Does he have sympathy with a Black separatist movement? He denounces what Reverend Wright preaches...but only now when it's politically expedient to do so?

While I might agree with what Rev. Wright said ...I wish he had put it in the context that all people of the world have suffered under a Corporatist/Military Industrial Complex that in some ways goes back to the beginning of time. But not all the world's conquerors and oppressors have been white, if one has any high school education of world history you know they come in all colors and of all religious persuasions. Reverend Wright's comments focused on "rich white folks" and not the true oppressors and war mongers who pillage and rape the poorest and most disadvantaged amongst us. Rather than attacking Hillary Clinton for not suffering like "black people" shouldn't he have been talking against the Regime that's now in place in DC?

Those of us here on DU (who have for years railed on about RW Evangelical Preachers with their congregations in the thousands who preach Biblical Distortions} can understand that if Reverend Wright were a white preacher saying what he does about "rich Black folks," and the "White Jesus" we wouldn't be thinking of his preaching as just "RW hyperbolic rhetoric" that white Fundamentalists "just happen to use in some parts of America" giving the rhetoric "a pass" just because we now support a Candidate running for office that is part of that church and those preachings.

This is what is going to cause Obama trouble when the GOP goes after him before the Election. They will shine the light on this hypocrisy... and drive it to the ground because so many in the GOP have been attacked for their Fundamentalist beliefs and inflammatory rhetoric.
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
64. theboss I don't like to go to a church that preaches "Fire and Brimstone"
I would prefer a church that preaches the love, and the wonderful things in the afterlife.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. To each his own, I guess
And fire and brimstone preachers do preach about the wonderful things in the afterlife. It's just that you have to earn them.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. agree, Wright was speaking truths which make white racists scared
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:24 AM by ensho

Farracon spoke truths too and scared white racists.

racists are mean people when they are scared.

but that doesn't mean we should vote for Obama if he isn't the person that can resurrect the dead, murdered body of the United States. we are in a situation where the next prez while have to nurse a sick and dead broke country back to health; put the neo cons in prison; and save the earth/life from climate change.

the next prez will have to delegate alot of jobs - to the right, honest, caring people. the next prez won't get much sleep.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. I admit I was a bit naive. I figured churches were spiritual. But I also have NO problem with
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:24 AM by jmg257
a pastor telling his congregation that Obama would certainly understand them and their problems better then Hillary would. That is a given (I already agree with).

I also admit I don't like the "God Damn America" stuff, but that might just be me; as I did not go through what many of these people have gone through.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. It was spiritual. "Fire and brimstone" spiritual but spiritual
I think that when this all plays out, the people who will end up defending Obama are White Baptists.

If you grew up in the Southern Baptist tradition, you've been to a tent revival. And if you've been to a tent revival, you've been told that America is about to collapse. That God has turned her back on it. And you have shouted "Amen."

My church growing up was more mainline Protestant. But during Revival Week, we always had a "Vengeful God" minister come in. And I always found it awesome.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
91. People who don't know the jeremiad tradition
...well, don't get the jeremiad tradition.
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hell-bent Donating Member (593 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #91
128. And what is that tradition?
To blame the white "folk" for all of the Black man's problems? This is the day that I finally get it! :wtf:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Seriously, what are you doing on a progressive message board?
That's the lament of the Dixiecrat.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. when did Wright ever do that?
I didn't watch all of the videos or look at all of the website, but I have not seen the 'racism' in what I did see and hear. Then again, I didn't see it in Ferraro's comments either.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #128
138. you should look up "jeremiad"
and you will see that jeremiads are as American as apple pie.

"The term jeremiad refers to a sermon or another work that accounts for the misfortunes of an era as a just penalty for great social and moral evils, but holds out hope for changes that will bring a happier future. It derives from the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah, who in the seventh century B.C. attributed the calamities of Israel to its abandonment of the covenant with Jehovah and its return to pagan idolatry, denounced with "lurid and gloomy eloquence" its religious and moral iniquities, and called on the people to repent and reform in order that Jehovah might restore them to his favor and renew the ancient covenant. <...>

According to Sacvan Bercovitch (The American Jeremiad) and Perry Miller (The New England Mind: From Colony to Province), the jeremiad could exhort to action and caution against headlong zeal. Although they created anxiety through a recitation of current woes, jeremiads also reassured listeners by evoking the spirit of a glorious past and suggesting that the same spirit, now slumbering but able to be awakened, existed in the present day. According to Miller, one technical problem is that the jeremiad "could make sense out of existence as long as adversity was to be overcome, but in the moment of victory it was confused" (33)." link

or:

Sacvan Bercovitch (1978) uses John Winthrop's Model of Christian Charity to describe the American Jeremiad - a sermon that seeks to unify a people by creating tension between ideal social life and its real manifestation. The "jeremiad" is named after the biblical lamentations of Jeremiah ("I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto me?" (chapter 2, verse 21). Of course, we don't seek to understand the jeremiad strictly for its religious significance. We seek to understand the jeremiad because of its role in the construction and critique of public life.

Bercovitch contrasts the American jeremiad with its European predecessor. The European jeremiad depicted a static society condemned to fall perpetually from its mythic roots; it wailed from the pulpit and unleashed a torrent of guilt upon its audience. In contrast, the American jeremiad added the dimension of progress - the hope that public life can improve. The invocation of the American jeremiad involves three steps:

(1) provide a biblical or spiritual standard for individual activity and public life
(2) outline the manners in which a people has fallen from that standard,
(3) envision an ideal public life - with its concurrent individual benefits - that follows a return to the religious standard.

With this ideal, the American jeremiad sustains a paradoxical rhetoric of hope and fear - a tension between the ideal and the real. This tension is designed to generate the requisite energy to improve public life: "It posits a movement from promise to experience - from the ideal of community to the shortcomings of community life - and thence forward, with prophetic assurance, toward the resolution that incorporates (as it transforms) both the promise and the condemnation" (Bercovitch, p. 16). The key to the American jeremiad is its blurring of individual and communal pursuits. link
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UALRBSofL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #22
93. theboss I know all about tent revivals
My mother is Pentecostal so I knew all about the religion. I call her religion a cult, LOL. In my opinion these religions are a right wing evangelical christian type who will always vote republican, in my opinion.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #93
111. This is my oft-lamented complaint that DUers think the world began in 1990.
The Pentacostal Churches date back to the early 1800s. They have nothing to do with the Republican Party.

Black churches used to support the Republican Party too by the way. Back when Democrats ran the Jim Crow South.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Hey look here, I was just told that
african-americans should be grateful for the opportunities they've been given because of slavery.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. ...
:wow:

Speechless...
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. It's like we are on Stormfront or something.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. I replied to a post this morning that said blacks need to "get over it"
and to not use their slave ancestors as a crutch, and that they were "looking for a handout". I have been illuminated by some things I've seen in here the past few days, verily.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. The worst part is that posters like that are making it hard to tell
who the truly honest posters are on this site.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
79. Agree
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:15 AM by Moochy
Honesty is sorely lacking on one side of the debate at the moment. I'm looking at you, HRC supporters with a born on date of March 14th, stoking the pastorbait "controversy"
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
66. Blacks are not looking for a 'hand-out.' They're looking to have a hand *in,*
as every American wants to have a say in the governing of their own country.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #66
87. Damn straight
:thumbsup:
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
30. OMG
:grr:

My church has a little bit of every one. We have democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, white, black, hispanic, GLBT, straight and all fit into more than one category. I cannot believe all of the stupid comments coming out of people's mouths.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
20. People of European descent have a cognitive dissonance regarding atrocities commited
against native peoples, Africans, African Americans and former colonies.

The fact is those were cheering white mobs male & female in the lynching photos of just several decades ago.



A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girls uncle saved the life of a third by proclaiming the mans innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000 lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South. (Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of Judge Lynch.) Some lynching photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared. Today the images remind us that we have not come as far from barbarity as wed like to think.
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texas_indy Donating Member (432 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
192. I remember seeing the white-only water fountains, restaurants and even benches
in the parks in the south in the 60s. Blacks in my home town in OK were required to be out by dusk or run the risk of being beaten and thrown into jail.

Looks like a lot of the pure whites are shocked that the non-whites are no longer satisfied with being treated as 2nd class citizens in their own country.

The really sad thing is they are so shocked to find out that minorities didn't like being treated that way, and are surprised that a simple "gosh-gee, sorry about that", doesn't wipe away the past for minorities and allow all to start with a clean slate.

Minorities still have to go through a daily dose of crap for the simple reason of the color of their skin.

This is still a white majority run country. But, not for much longer.

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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
21. of course
I'm white, and I'm southern, and I am so used to black churches and black preachers. It's the culture. Honestly, this is a big yawner.

How can people act shocked like this? I mean, if that was the content of every sermon, or something, I guess I would be shocked. But they probably went through reams of sermons before they found a could of angry statements.

Anyway, I am glad that seventeen years of my spouting off is not on tape.
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. Well put!

Wish I could recommend it, not enough posts though. Maybe this one will put me over the top :)
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. I had my first experience in attending an African American church
on Long Island last year. My aunt is a member (she's white) and she said she finally found a church where she feels comfortable. I lost my religion years ago, but attended the service out of courtesy to my aunt.
The preacher lashed out against the Bush administration during his sermon- for lying, for recklessness with our troops lives, for hurting innocents in Iraq, etc.
I have to say that I agreed with every word he said about social issues- and after being raised in a fundie white church in the South- this was indeed different. It was direct and non-hypocritical. Yes, there was anger, but it was fully-justified anger. But you know what else was there? There was a positive message of redemption. It wasn't "you'd better follow the rules or you are going to hell" that I heard all my life. It was a message of salvation and hope, and it was amazing. I'm glad I had the opportunity to have this experience and your post just reminded me.


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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
27. I do not want a fight here but
when those tones and attitudes are expressed in a "White" church. far more outrage gets expressed.

Hatred does indeed go both ways.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. In a white church, you might have the president of the bank, president of the school board, etc.
When people in power are speaking about those not in power, it's scary.

When those not in power are speaking truth to power, it's inspiring.

Do Democrats no longer believe this?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. "hatred", "undertones"...
what I don't get is that we are all going down because of our government. Yet, many would prefer to inflame the issue of race. We all have the same government. I guess those who are still hanging on to their illusions of grandeur aren't ready yet to come together as a people so we can do something about our landlord. That's fine. It really does demonstrate where people's priorities lie. They would rather go ballistic over a black man preaching in a black church, to a black congregation about living black in a white man's world.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
53. I didn't see reverend Wrights sermon as hatred
I saw it as the truth, though perhaps many people can't look at our history (even recent history) and realize that America is not what she says she is. Sure equal rights is the goal, and fairness is the ideal but as a nation have missed the mark by miles.

America may have a better self, but I admit we are not what we say we are, at least not yet, look to the Bush administration for in your face proof. :shrug:
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #53
186. What more explicit hatred could there be than calling on God to damn people?
It may not be mistaken, but it's certainly hatred.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
177. Uhm, what?
TUCC isn't just a black church, it's got all kinds of folks in the pews.

Oh, and I take it you've never been to a "white" church, like a UU church, when the topic is "Rich White Men and Their Wars".

Some folks can deal with a history filled with racism better than others, I guess?
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
34. Oh I wanted to do this too but I'm also white
so I was waiting for a reasonable voice to pipe up about this.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
35. I thought black people gathered in circles to thank white people for all we've done for you.
Really, it's unnecessary. We know how great we are.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
38. I can tell you I didn't expect a "riding dirty sermon" nt
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Remember that scene in "Lean on Me" with Morgan Freeman?
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 AM by theboss
And God didn't say, "Joe, be polite!"

Saturday Night and Sunday Morning sometime bump up against each other.

But I'm sorry if your virgin ears can't handle it.

Steve Harvey does a funny bit on swearing in church with Sister O'Dell.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. He was basically fucking his lecturn while he said it, have you seen it? nt
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. He's not everyone's style
Not everyone is Billy Graham.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #48
89. Both are creeps.
.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. that was truly disgusting and especially in the pulpit.....just disgusting
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #47
62. He gyrated twice. Stop acting like the Church Lady.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:06 AM by theboss
At the most, it was inappropriate. Though his audience seemed to get a kick out of it.

I loved my church growing up. But we were a typical white, mainline Protestant church. And we would get into endless discussions of when shorts were appropriate (we weren't Independent Baptists who think shorts are NEVER appropriate). What abou Wednesday night Bible Study at someone's house? Shorts are fine then, right? What about Saturday's Pancake Breakfast?

You can get so caught up in decorum and legalism that you lose the purpose.

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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. I guess you didn't see the part when he stepped away from the podium then?
and continued his riding dirty gyrations.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. This is really what it comes down to you?
A reverand's hips.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. No the inappropriateness of it, obama was a member for over 20 years
and he brings his children there.

That's the problem.

And then he lies and said he was never aware of this shit.

What does he think? That people are that stupid.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #81
90. It's a church. Not a porno theater.
Just because it is not to your taste, you are acting like he was going to some sort of Black Panter Sex Party. Jesus Mary and Joseph.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. You are right, it's a church and riding dirty sermons have no place there.
you can try and make as many excuses as you want, people with half a brain will laugh at you.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
39. The funniest part
I find to the African American Evangelical movement is that Christianity (and the other two Abrahamic religions) is the religion of slavery.

A promise of everlasting life in "heaven" for putting up with shit in this life. Obey your master, turn the other cheek, etc and you will spend eternity in utopia.

What a crock of shit.

But I like the irony.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. It is the religion of slaves. Not slavery.
Huge difference.
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Not the Only One Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
40. I am white and my wife is white and we saw GE Patterson perform in Memphis
We were visiting relatives and went to his church on a lark, basically as entertainment. We imagined it to be like a scene from Blues Brothers, and figured it would be worth the effort.



Everyone was very welcoming, as if we weren't white. It was a nice experience.

Barack Obama co-sponsored a Senate resolution celebrating Patterson's life and ministry, after Patterson died. Patterson is way more mainstream than Wright, but Wright is the preacher of a predominantly black megachurch in the Chicago area, and not Patterson, who also had a megachurch, but in Memphis. So, I think Obama is sort of a victim of his options. I'm sure that he'd have been going to Patterson's church all these years if he'd have set up shop in Chicago and Wright had set up shop in Memphis.

People get different things out of church. Many just like the socialization. With Obama's background as the son of an atheist, I'm not sure how into Christianity he is. I don't think he'd ever talk about all the dark things about Christianity, that many preachers just ignore-- like how we are supposed to fear God (why fear is something that should be encouraged, I'm not sure) because he will do a number on us if we cross him and how we blanch at lethal injection, but God uses something more violent in a lake of fire (for eternity, as if being in there for a minute wouldn't be plenty). I think Obama probably zones out much of what Rev. Wright says.

Still, there are plenty of black people who have justifiable anger at America and Wright speaks to them. I really don't have a problem with them blowing off steam like that. It's to be expected.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
54. Could you be more patronizing?
He zones out? He's not into it? Have you read his books?

Christians of all stripes believe that God will judge them. It is the end-game of faith. Your mileage may vary on how God will judge you but the "dark things" are ultimately what we are living a life of faith to avoid.

Do I believe in a lake of fire? I'm not sure. But I do believe in eternity. And the knowledge that I could be with Christ and am not might be more of a torture than any lake of fire.
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Not the Only One Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
85. He could be into his own personal Christianity without hanging on to every word Wright said.
I do think he zones out. He's too smart to take Christianity so seriously-- actual Christianity covered by both Jesus and Paul, the kind that is very intolerant and unjust, and, frankly, demented. Is Obama spiritual? Undoubtedly. I think he has sort of developed his own version of Christianity that he subscribes to. He believes in "Good Jesus," like some other Christians.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. Again, have you read his books?
I'm taking him at his word.
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Not the Only One Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #97
104. I haven't read them.
Can you tell me what exactly he said about his personal Christianity? Did he talk in detail about what he believed in and what he didn't accept and such? I don't believe Barack Obama is a fundie. I just don't. It would be absurd to me.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. What is a fundie? He believes that Jesus Christ is his personal savior and the son of a living God
He believes that Christ died on the cross, was buried, and resurrected.

He believes that the truth path of salvation lies with Christ.

That's all Christianity is, my friend.

And it inspired him with his mission in life:

"And in that single note - hope! - I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of the ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories - of survival, and freedom, and hope - became our story, my story; the blood that had been spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until the black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world."
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Not the Only One Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #107
142. Yeah, that's "Good Jesus" just like I thought
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 01:43 PM by Not the Only One
That's not all Christianity is. People like that are ignoring a lot of what's in the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If that was all there was, the Bible would be a leaflet.

Obama probably doesn't acknowledge that God killed innocent newborns and infants and the mentally handicapped during the Great Flood, though the Bible says he did (I know there was never an actual flood, but the point remains because Christians do believe there was). He killed Job's ten children for the sake of a bet. God condones the rape of the women of Shiloh. On and on, the Bible is filled with hideousness either done by God or by followers at God's direction, or with his consent. There are a ton of examples in the Bible. Obama's Bible is a leaflet, and, if he's going to be a Christian and not an atheist like his mother, I'm glad it's only as long as a leaflet to him.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #142
161. So, this is now, like, an atheist thing
His books were a Bible Concorance. You'd have to ask him yourself if he believes, like, every passage in Deuteronomy.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #142
168. I actually kind of enjoy the angry Jesus
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:42-47
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Not the Only One Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #168
175. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34 (New International Version)

I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. Luke 12:49-53 (New International Version)

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36 (New International Version)

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sistersyes, even his own lifehe cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 (New International Version)

This is just a sample. Bad Jesus was a dick.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
50. What do Black People think goes on at Hagee's Church?
All those RW Evangelicals preaching about the "Old Testament" and such......
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
55. White churches are also guilty of hate speech, i.e. Falwell,
Robertson, Hagee, et al. Blacks don't have a monopoly on this.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. What hate speech?
I keep hearing it called hate speech. I think of it is as preaching.

If "riding dirty" is hate speech, Chamillionaire is apparently a Klan member.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
148. No, they don't.
Falwell et al. get pretty uniform receptions on DU, though.

There's a clarity that comes with condemning somebody like Falwell and Hagee that seems lacking when it comes to Wright.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
58. Perhaps some of us hoped
that conversations about God, about love, humility, peace, the golden rule, brother and sister-hood, compassion, charity, and forgiveness happened. Regardless of what the congregation looked like.

Perhaps we assumed that church, being about spiritual health, would be focused on spiritual health, and that politics would be relegated to the outside world.

Perhaps we thought the congregation would be meditating on the times Christ made it clear that corruption had no place in the synagogue, and that spiritual growth was an inner, rather than a political, journey.

Perhaps some of us, having spent time in churches ourselves, knew better, and that's why you taste an anti-religion undertone.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #58
72. agree........n/t
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #72
84. They should have taken away Ebenezer's Baptist's tax-exempt status
It was disgraceful the way they talked politics there.

And the anger. So much anger.

Horrible.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #58
80. So, Martin Luther King, Jr was corrupting the purpose of church
Politics had no place in Ebenezer Baptist Church.

Shameful.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #80
98. Did MLK hump a lecturn in church? Did he use profanity in the pulpit? nt
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #98
112. No probably not. He may have banged a church secretary in his office at some point though
Is the issue the message or the style?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
135. What's shameful is your invoking MLK as a red herring
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:48 PM by LWolf
to excuse Wright's, and Obama's, pandering to religion.

Wright is no MLK.

Politics have no place in church, unless we're living under a theocracy.

I'm a strong advocate of a deep, wide chasm separating church and state.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #135
162. MLK practiced political action in a church
True or false?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #162
172. Irrelevant,
since the topic under discussion is Obama and Wright.

Since you seem pretty passionate about MLK's political action, why not start a thread topic about it, and we can hammer his part in faith-based politics all you like.

Meanwhile, 40+ years later, it's still an issue, and Obama and Wright are in the thick of that issue.

I want a deep, wide separation of church and state. I did in the 60s, and I do now. I don't want a preacher mentoring the president. I don't want organized religious influence of any kind in government. I don't want a cozy political relationship between elected officials and religious leaders.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #172
173. Religion is irrelevant to MLK?
Explain.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #173
198. You really like the use of logical fallacies to make your points, don't you?
I did not say religion was irrelevant to MLK.

MLK is irrelevant to the discussion of Wright.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
83. I didn't know about the humping and blowjob sermons.
That's pretty novel, I have to admit.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
86. Obsession with the clenis?
I did not think that.(Nor has it been my experience.)
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #86
100. Believe it or not, Christians (black and white) didn't approve of Bill Clinton cheating on his wife
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:27 AM by theboss
Most rational people believed that it wasn't an offense worthy of losing his office.

But it's not like there was this great approval for the act out there. At that point, it became clear that he was a good president but a turd of a human being.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #100
115. And they relish slathering over it from the pulpit?
Don't think so.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #115
118. Why are you shocked that preachers are discussing a sin?
What do you think they talk about?

On Sunday, Elliot Spitzer's name is going to be mentioned in 10,000 sermons.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. Wright's version is salacious and very creepy
But you are right - this level of sleazy religiosity and demagoguery is common. Doesn't make it any more attractive.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
95. yes I have and have never heard any hate nor seen any lectern humping like in Wrights sermons
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
103. Church...
Yes, but this also goes beyond the race issue. Many people on this board are ignorant of religion in general, except insofar as they imagine it to be a sink of right-wing know-nothingness. They don't understand the prophetic tradition, which is all about criticism of social injustice. The Old Testament prophets did nothing but, and most of Jesus' preaching consisted of condemnation of legalistic judgmentalism and hypocrisy. In short, the entire "progressive" program has it's roots in religion. I think when people who know nothing about this, or were raised in bland, let's-sing-a-few-hymns-and-then-have-cookies types of churches, are suddenly confronted with this passionate, socially engaged kind of preaching, it comes as a shock. But it shouldn't.

Now fundamentalists are plenty familiar with passionate preaching. The trouble is, they use it in the service of exactly the kind of Pharasaic hypocrisy Jesus was at such pains to denounce. So when they encounter someone like Wright using a style they consider "theirs" to denounce them and all they stand for, it is doubly shocking to them. The irony is, they "borrowed" that kind of preaching from black churches in the first place, though they would never admit it.

I find it painful that Obama is being forced to publicly renounce this man who has meant so much to him, just because of a few inflammatory statements. But I see that he has no choice. Just now, my boss said to me: "Did you see Obama last night? Can you beleive that crazy minister? Imagine the upbringing those kids had in a church like that!" So this church, which is such a wonderful institution in Chicago and has done so much good, has it's reputation trashed by the misuse of some videoclips for the purposes of a cheap smear.

Politics is an ugly game.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. Beautfiful post. See my comments above on Ebenezer Baptist.
In a lot of ways, the evangelical movement has blinded progressive to the simple fact that their tradition rose out of the church. To remove politics from the church is to cripple a uniquely American institution.

Abolitionist movement? Church based.
Pacifist movement? Church based.
Civil Rights movement? Church based.

It's insane that we have been tricked into attacking our own base.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #110
126. But, preaching for or agains a particular Candidate...is a problem.
and hypperbole that "rich white folks" were responsible for all the ills of the world is a distortion of truth. People of all faiths and colors have been responsible for oppression, rape and pillage since the beginning of time. Wright singled out..."whites." And, then unfairly said that Hillary had never been afraid because she was white.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Do you think that maybe black folks on the South Side are a teeny bit concerned with white people
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 PM by theboss
Chicago is the city that made MLK blink for goodness sake.

If you lived on the South Side for 50 years, it's not African warlords or Asian communists who made your life difficult. It's Irish Cops and Polish politicians.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #129
143. Are "they" the "rich white folks" Wright was talking about? Irish Cops/Polish Politicians?
are you kidding me? :shrug:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #143
169. Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in the world
Blacks have been boxed in repeatedly by politicians. And then kept in line by the police force.

If you live in a project, yea....a corrupt alderman probably looks pretty rich to you.
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #103
182. Jesus and the money changers
The spiritual is not, nor has ever been, a clean, conflict-free endeavor. To rise above injustice you must not only recognize it, you must condemn it. this is true no matter what religion (or lack thereof) you may claim as your own. People may not agree with Reverend Wright's delivery, but his message is sound. There is systemic institutionalized racism that still lingers in this society, and racism - no matter how covert - is still very much a reality. I don't have a problem with him expressing anger at these injustices, in fact I applaud him for it.

I haven't heard any specific condemnation by him of "white people". I have heard him refer to a White America, and has stated that Hillary is largely clueless about what it is to be black in America today. I have heard him say that Obama is a beacon of hope for the black community because of what his campaign and election could symbolize for Americans of all ethnicity.

His message is a powerful one. He's not sugar coating it, but just because someone may not approve of the delivery or the terms he used to get his point across, it doesn't necessarily follow that his points were wrong.

And, in any case, there's nothing anyone can point to that shows that Obama perceives things in the same way. I've been to a lot of sermons, masses, rituals - and I've seen and heard a lot of points I disagree with. but I DID learn something from all of those experiences. Even in disagreement, we can parse out meaning that applies to our own reality - that's the beautiful thing about something as non-linear as spirituality.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
109. it's the ONE place...
...where all the fear, anger, and frustration can be voiced without censor or condemnation. It's the ONE place where the good of each and every person in earshot is the priority, and not what society thinks, or mandates. It's the ONE place where the truth, as that pastor or that particular community sees it, cannot be marginalized. It's the ONE place where people aren't told to "calm down" or "get over it."

Thanks for starting this thread!

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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
127. Well, I didn't think they claimed the US deserved 9/11 or that the gov't created AIDS to kill blacks
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM by Unsane
and other assorted nonsense.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. I even heard blacks say whites injected them with syphalis - oh wait that was true!
and gave small pox infected blankets to American Indians - oh wait that was true as well!
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Unsane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. oh wait, you're an idiot!
Obama doesn't even agree with this tripe.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #133
137. Not injected....just experimented on...

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/may97/tuskegee_5-... APOLOGY 65 YEARS LATE

May 16, 1997
Lasting Legacy

Beginning in 1932, the federal government sponsored a study to examine the impact of syphilis involving black men. The experiment went on until 1972 without the test subjects' knowledge,
but no President had apologized to the volunteers and their families until President Clinton did so today. Following a background report on the experiment, Charlayne Hunter-Gault looks at what the legacy of Tuskegee.

Unanswered questions.

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS: I think you have hit the nail on the head. That is a critical question that was really not answered today, nor was it answered in the HBO movie, Miss Evers Boys. The common view in the black community is that the men were injected by the government doctors. And that is why you see the kind of anger, and that has been repeated by Minister Louis Farrakhan and others that really are voicing a common folkmyth in the black community. But in my work and in working with the literature I have found absolutely no evidence that the men were intentionally injected by the government doctors. And maybe we can clear that up right now on this show.

GrayFRED GRAY: Well, we made a thorough investigation of it, and we found no evidence--the men had syphilis--there's no question about it. We found no evidence whatsoever that the government inflicted them with syphilis. The tragedy is bad enough, and we don't need to make it any worse, but there is absolutely no credence to the fact that they were injected with syphilis.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Shaw said today--we just heard a little while ago that the damage done to society perhaps is deeper than the wounds that were inflicted on them. You've had some experience with that, haven't you?

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS: Over the past seven years Dr. Sandra Quinn at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and I have traced the roots of the Tuskegee legacy to the AIDS epidemic. Many African Americans believe that AIDS is a form of genocide, and their fear and suspicion of the health care delivery system is directly related to the history of the Tuskegee legacy.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: They believe that the syphilis was injected into the men, and now they believe that AIDS is something that has been put into the black community?

Dr. ThomasDR. STEPHEN THOMAS: Another example of efforts to eliminate black people. And it extends even beyond AIDS. African Americans are under-represented as organ donors, under-represented as individuals who donate blood, and this legacy in the black community is now a metaphor for all of the abuses of biomedical research that violate human rights. That's why what happened today was so important.


CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But just to stay on the impact for a moment, does this retard your efforts to deal with AIDS and black people to treat them, or to do research, or--

Building a new trust.

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS: If we start talking after today it very well could retard. But what I heard today from the President and from the men was this is a new beginning, and if we find a way to talk about the role of race and medicine and science and continue this dialogue, we can have a new beginning and start rebuilding that trust.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: But up to now the mistrust is there.

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS: It is there and well documented.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Gray, the damage to the families, is that a significant part of this legacy?

DiscussionFRED GRAY: I think that is part of it, and one of the first things the Health Service did when the study ended was to have those families who--the participants who were syphilitic to be examined and those who tested positively were placed in the health care program. But let me hasten and say I think it would be a disservice to these men if we end up saying that AIDS is a direct result of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I don't think that's true. I don't think there's any basis for those facts. I think AIDS is bad, and I think there's room for people to have the distrust, but I don't think we really should connect the two, and I think a part of our responsibility is to keep the record straight and let our people know it's bad, but we need to do something about it.


Hunter-GaultCHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Dr. Thomas, could this happen again in this day?

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS: Some people believe that it already has. And the connection has less to do with the biology of the two diseases and more to do with people's response to it, and that response is that today we know how to stop the spread of AIDS. Today we have new drugs that extend life, and African Americans are not benefitting. And the legacy of Tuskegee may be one of those factors.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Well, it looks like the chapter is not quite closed.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
131. Black churches promoting a social gospel and desiring change
sounds like an angry progressive and less angry than many on this board
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
139. I've been to Black churches and Black services
and never have I witnessed the hatred that was practically oozing out of Wright.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
141. LOL... exactly. These scared white people would be funny to watch if it weren't such a sad sight.
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Traction311 Donating Member (229 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
144. Some white people are still shocked that in black churches, Jesus is black!
Some whites are even offended by it, believe it or not.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
145. Where's Chris Rock when you need him...he'd straighten some people out
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
146. doesn't really matter. it could sink O in the GE. nt
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
150. I'm not freaking out. I'm loving it. lol
I've never done Jesus at all. But after this, I'm fixing to go across town to Glide and hopefully listen some. Not about Jesus but about people. No kidding, I am. Whatever those people are doing to kick ass in their community, I want to be in on it.

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
153. I'm still befuddled as to why African Americans embraced one of the biggest instruments...
of their oppression in the New World. Christianity with all of if its pie in the sky in the sweet by and by horseshit was long used as justification for slavery and other aspects of racism.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #153
164. And here come the pretzels!!
Or in this case, the atheists.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #164
171. Oh really, so historical accuracy = atheism?
Okay...
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
158. Worshipping God, teaching the Gospel,
and trying to get people to be the best they can be.

From time to time the assoc. pastor of the church I would go to would give a hate-filled speech. Most people would politely listen, with a general rumble of "what a pathetic excuse for a sermon" sure to follow.

Wright wasn't teaching people to be better. He wasn't teaching them to love their enemies, or explain how things should be. He wasn't teaching unity, or hope. He was vilifying, he was setting up his righteousness, downtrodden parishioners against others so they could hate, mock, and feel good about themselves because they're not responsible. Right in keeping with Jesus' words, "Blessed are ye when ye curse your enemies and mock those that mock you, for you shall be God." And, elsewhere, "Know ye know that damning the sinners will be accounted to you for righteousness? For by their sins are ye justified, and their wrongdoing shall be ascribed to you as virtue. They shall be judged with the judgment ye mete, and in much judging of others ye shall find mercy." And, from the Old Testament, "God delights in the destruction of the sinners, and is quick to vengeance and slow to mercy," "Hate thy neighbor if he offend thee", and "In no wise consider the sinner to be your neighbor: He is reprobate, and not worthy of mercy." :sarcasm:

There's enough of that kind of nonsense in white and black churches. Defending it is not something I can consider to be decent. It may happen; it may be common; but I cannot agree that "What is, is right".

Now, there is a tradition of speaking truth to power: "Woe unto you, Pharisees, hypocrites!" Wait, that can't be right. "... unto <i>you</i>"? That isn't just saying bad things about Pharisees behind their back. Jesus misspoke: "Woe until them, the Pharisees, who aren't worthy of licking your collective ass" is what he must have meant to say. Wright didn't speak truth to power: He wasn't speaking to power, unless he was talking to Obama.

There is a tradition of using sinners as bad examples: "Be not like the Pharisees...." But then the emphasis is still on the hearer, calling him/her to repentance and righteousness.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
163. Does anyone not think Rev. Wright and his parishoners have cause for anger? n/t
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
167. Apparently not. What frustrates me is that critics of Christianity only know two verses
1. Judge not lest ye be judged.
2. Turn the other cheek.

Here's one of my favorite verses. This would be considered "hate speech" apparently:

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 8: 42-47


I love the Gospel of John. It's the latest Gospel and contains the most radical depiction of Jesus. This is a Jesus who is a fighter and an agitator.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #167
178. Those alleged words of your Jesus make him sound like a textbook schizophrenic
maybe he was
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
165. I don't care what happens in a black church. I also don't care what
happens in a white church.

Until it becomes so controversial that it causes problems for a potential Democratic nominee.

And this is causing problems for Obama whether we like it or not. It will diminish his chances of defeating McCain.

The real problem is that we had a broad assortment of qualified candidates and we are now left with the two most controversial.

Not very smart.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #165
170. Our qualified candidates couldn't get votes for free drugs in a crack house
John Edwards has won two (2!) state-wide elections since 1998. The man has charm and vision and whatever else is important. But nobody wants to vote for him.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
174. IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE
At least not to me. It is about "Goddamn America." It is about judgement. It is about lying. It is about hate. It is about hypocrisy. I am sick of reading posts here playing the race card. You all simply perpetuate the very racial hatred that has pervaded in this country for decades. It is almost as if some of you like it that way. I watched the video and it was not the color of his skin that bothered me, it was the words COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH and knowing that Obama associated with him. And also, in my lifetime I have been to black churches and at the services we sang hymns, held hands, praised the Lord, and actually had a great time. There was no political hatred, or anger, or RACISM. So I do not believe the BS being spouted here by some who themselves seem to be very bitter and angry and actually the ones using this incident to further their own racism.
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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #174
179. sigh .....
you see two short video clips and think you know something about a church.

read this from the leadership of the very white United Church of Christ praising Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Find out the real story, please.

http://www.ucc.org/news/chicagos-trinity-ucc-is.html
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
181. I had assumed its values were Christian.
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #181
183. What's non-christian about standing up to oppression? n/t
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #183
204. Maybe asking God to "damn" a nation, rather than pray that we may deserve a blessing?
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:41 AM by WinkyDink
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #204
205. Did Jesus pray for the money changers?
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 01:04 PM by casus belli
Or did he condemn them and overturn tables to make his point?

At issue here is the fact that this Reverend has every right to be pissed. There isn't anything pretty about racism and bigotry.

I will grant you, the delivery may not be agreeable to many, but the underlying theme is valid. And if you really take the time to listen, you will understand it's not a message of hate.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
184. This is why I have a lot of Hillbots on ignore. This feigned outrage when they know very well what
you are talking about is too much.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
185. You're forgetting that there's a general election to win.
Try making the argument to the general population that "black people are the most religious people in this country by a large degree" and see how well your candidate does in the general election. I assure you, you are not helping your candidate.
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
187. Shouldn't be getting tax exemptions if politics are part of the sermon.
I've heard Daddy King speak, and he was a man of honor, not a preacher with a filthy tongue.
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
188. I'm not surprised - I might start going to one.
I agree with a lot of what he said.

Let me state, however, that I supported Edwards and currently support Clinton - mainly because I think she has a better chance against McCain and because I'm female. I think that the Repubs will throw a LOT more at Obama and he won't be able to withstand all the swiftboating. I don't know if Hillary can win either - so I'm not a vehement Clinton supporter.

If Obama survives this and his numbers go back up again and I was convinced that he would really do better aganist McCain then I might think differently. The most important thing by far and away is that a Democrat get elected.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #188
194. You should go!
You'll find yourself shockingly welcomed.

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Blondiegrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
189. I know exactly what happens! The proof is evidenced right here:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
195. They aren't all the same. nt
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eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
196. I would like to know one thing
How is it any of our damn business?
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
197. I always figured Obama would have some problems
with the color of his skin and his ties to cultures that were different than what many Americans understand in the General Election. I'm saddened to see that it has become an issue in the Democratic primary. Since when did Democrats measure a candidate by their pastor, since when did Democrats measure a candidate by their cultural associations? The answer seems to be fairly clear - many do, and have done so for their entire lives.

Fighting to change cultural and racial perceptions (and misconceptions based on ignorance and fear of what is different) is central to what Obama is doing, and I had mistakenly believed that it was central to what most Democrats believed should be done.

Watching Democrats throw stones at a black man because he has partaken, in only a limited way, with cultures outside of main stream white America is breaking my heart. We are supposed to stand against such small mindedness; to fight tooth and nail against it - not help expand it. I feel a great deal of shame for many of my fellow Democrats right now.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
200. The solution to racism
is for all black people to be totally purged of any prejudice or mistrust of white people before white people will vote for any one of them.

seems reasonable? ummm. yes, if you like double-standards.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
201. I wouldn't call it an English tea party... more like a Boston Tea Party mood.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:20 AM by backscatter712
And who can blame people who've been enslaved, disrespected, disenfranchised, pushed to the margins, even physically assaulted, for centuries, just for the color of their skin.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
203. I didn't care before this
and I don't care now. What they do in their house of worship is none of my goddamn business, much as my choice not to worship is not their business.
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