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David Gergen on Obama's pastor story....A voice of reason...

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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:41 AM
Original message
David Gergen on Obama's pastor story....A voice of reason...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 08:53 AM by elizm
Although I don't always agree with David Gergen, last night I was reminded of why I have always respected him. His was the only voice of reason I heard last night in all of the coverage, on all of the networks, about Obama and his pastor. With Anderson Cooper on CNN...

GERGEN: I hope, in the next segment, we can come back to understanding that there's a discourse, there's a conversation in the black community....There has been for a long time, which is different from what is in the white community. And we ought to understand and appreciate the differences ... and not expect everybody to be just the same in this country.

(commercial break)

COOPER: ....David Gergen brought up an interesting point.... about the African-American experience, the African-American experience in church versus white American experience in church and the tradition. Different traditions.

Is there -- is there something that -- I mean, white people looking at this interpret differently -- you can't generalize like this, but that African-Americans looking at this may see it differently or hear things differently than white Americans listening to this?

COOPER: David, you brought this up. Why do you think that's an important point?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, because there's a long tradition, Anderson. And among black leaders to have a different view of American history, going all the way back to Frederick Douglass, who was one of the greatest American heroes of the 19th century, you know, who -- who gained his freedom from slavery in a great order.

He was invited the a July 4th celebration to give a July 4th speech in 1852, and he showed up and said, "You know, you whites see July 4 very differently from what I see it. This is not a day of celebration for us."

And I have found that in my classroom with black students frequently. When they speak their minds and when they speak their hearts, they have a very different view. I've had a young woman tell me, "July 4, we still can't celebrate it in my family, because of what's happened to us."

And I think that we as whites have to be understanding and empathic toward that and try to understand that, that people who are African-Americans legitimately have a different perspective on what American history has meant and take that into account as we hear this.

And it's not a lack of patriotism. It is a different form of patriotism. Actually, Reverend Wright may love this country more than any of us but feel we've fallen short of what we preach and believe.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/14/acd.01.h...
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DemsUnited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you for posting this.
Recommended.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Recommended.
It's important for people to realize that Jeremiah Wright and others his age still remember segregation, and they don't see patriotism and America in the same light as a lot of cable news pundits and opinion columnists, nor should they.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I saw a lot of younger people in the congregation
And they were cheering Wright. It's not just the 60's generation.

Bake
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Apparently you missed Gergen's point completely. nt
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. No, I get his point.
And **I** happen to agree. But I'm very afraid (or realistic) that a lot of people won't think that much about it.

Bake
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Sorry...didn't mean to offend. And I agree...
... a lot of people won't think that much about it. But I admire Gergen for at least asking that we do....which was the point of the post.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
95. Afraid.
Not realistic.

:scared:
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I cheer Wright too.
He's a better man than any of us.
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hueyshort Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. My guess is that 90% of America will not agree with you.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. 90% of Americans disagreeing with you doesn't mean you are wrong.
In fact, that probably means you're right.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. He is right... but it's not necessarily this discourse...
Barak explained it better by explaining generational issues in the black community, but a man of such prominence and influence that another man of such prominence and influence has made a pivotal part of his life should know better than to spew that sort of hatred, distrust and fundamentally false conspiracy theory crap.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
82. What is fundamentally false about saying Barack Obama doesn't fit the "rich old white men" profile?
What I really like is the talking heads saying they dismissed this on paper, but HEARING it from a black man in preacher dialect makes them angry.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. But isn't the goal to erase these different experiences
to create the American experience?

Wouldn't Obama's Presidency do the most to further these goals?

I just wonder why the Rev. Wright would say things he knows will hurt Obama, and therefore keep this divide alive and well.
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Gergen's point was that we should consider the differences in perspectives...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 08:52 AM by elizm
This post was not intended to continue the debate of right or wrong.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Most of these clips they've picked to highlight were made long before
Obama ran for President. And I believe Wright has the freedom to speak his mind and not think "what would Obama think" before every utterance.

The only thing keeping the divide "alive and well", is the media pushing the story, the RW hatemongers and people from our own party who are using the issue to bash Obama.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I thought this was during Christmas or something...
and when Barack was campaigning for Prez no?

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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. She said MOST of these clips. ONE was from December 07. nt
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. I think I only saw that one.
I'm starting to tune out politics on TV. Too depressing.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
84. Yep. One COMPLETELY UN-CONTROVERSIAL clip from 07 about Rich Old White Men who do exist.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 05:49 AM by Leopolds Ghost
And Barack "not fitting the mold" of an entitled candidate.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
80. "Fairy tale", it was okay to bash someone for that though, wasn't it?
And it made it even more fun that the MSM helped out.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. I say NO! Why homogenize the cultural diversity in our country and the world.
Rev. Wright was speaking for a segment of the black experience. How can you, or anyone else say that the experience he speaks of is invalid or wrong?
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LoveTruth Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Thank You
You know listening to this actually hurts me because we are being told to suppress the actualities of our society. We are being forced to acculturate and accept whatever we are told to accept Even when they are prejudice, unfair and wrong. Let me let everyone know that the black church for 200 years in this country has been the center of fellowship, empowerment, community etc.. Many preachers preach the social gospel where they type in social issues with the gospel. It has been some on the only public space we have been able to have as a people until recently. Dr. King came from these churches as did many others. I am sure that in the 50s and 60s, if whites heard what MLK was saying in church about America and the people who want to maintain the oppressive structure. I am sure they would have said we was "off the wall", trying to "start a conspiracy against the government" and a "threat". Heck, they did say those things. If it weren't for people for years speaking out, we would still be sitting in the back of the bus or as Otis Moss III (Trinity's new pastor) put it saying "massa and things of that sort"

I much appreciate David Gergen's statements yesterday.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. Welcome to DU truth.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Why would we ever want to do that?
I don't see why would ever want to "erase" someone's experience. The goal is to UNDERSTAND people's experience and move forward. I can't think of anything more disrespectful than "erasing" or ignoring what somebody else has gone through.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. "Erase" is a bad word, hows about "Replace"
My goal is that no one ever experience that type of bad behavior again.

I guess it doesn't seem to me that Rev. Wright's sermons help us to move forward, but instead keeps us focused on a very ugly past.
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LoveTruth Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Umm...
Its not a past its a reality even for us today. Please dont ignore what goes on in your society and in your world. Dismissing it as the past is only putting us further BACK. No replace, erasing, nothing like that. I think that African Americans and Native Americans have had enough of the erasing and replacing of their cultures and identities in order to accept and appease an oppressive power structure.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I'm an Asian Female. I have even less chance of being elected President than a Black person
or an American Indian person. I don't think I've even heard of an Asian person running for President.

I guess I hardly dwell on my race or my heritage and I feel more generic American than anything else and I think its a good place to be.

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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
85. Yes, but remember that you are at liberty to feel that way. Italians, Irish got white skin privilege
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 05:55 AM by Leopolds Ghost
Blacks are always used as the contrast point, the stepping stone for immigrant groups to judge progress in comparison to (or against). There is nothing unique about that -- it's been happening for ages. Asians didn't used to have white skin privilege, and neither did light-skinned acculturated African Americans.
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IowaGirl Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. I agree with you--it doesn't help us to move forward with helping all races achieve equality when
we hear African Americans saying hateful things about white people as a group. As a white person who has repeatedly tried to help stomp out racial prejudice whenever I can, to turn around and see this type of prejudice against whites being promoted is really frustraring. Somebody has to say somewhere that it's time to quit pushing this stuff. It makes for entertaining pulpit talk, I'm sure, gets people all riled up and makes for clinks in the collection plate. All the right wing wackos love to hear Rush Limbaugh because he tells them what they want to hear. This sure seems similar. Obama wants to tell people what they need to hear and, boy, this stuff isn't what our country needs to hear to help heal old wounds, to make white employers willing to hire people of color, to make white people want to elect people of color. It's just not Christian, for that matter. Sometime we have to try to forgive each other for past hurts, real or imagined. It should not be about what we have done but what we can do-together. BTW, those rich white guys in office have been sticking it to everybody, not just the black community.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
86. What did Wright say that is racist? When realism is dismissed as racism it disturbs me.
Mind you some of what Wright says is not realistic. But it certainly is not racist or even insensitive towards whites.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #86
98. the "answer" to that is being peddled by Rush Limbaugh - see his website
Its something that Bill Clinton was on Limpballs show the day of the Tx and Oh elections, eh?
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LoveTruth Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. I hear what you are saying but I think you have missed the point.
We have different experiences due to ethnic background, race, religion, gender, class and age. Those are the realities. The way to unity is through understanding one another. When I hear someone say the american experience, I realize that they are talking about the white American experience, culture and identity as placing it as the "norm". We are a diverse country of different people and we must embrace that.
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nsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Yes, exactly.
One selling point -- though not the only one -- of an Obama presidency is that it would be a transformational event, helping heal racial wounds of the past, moving America closer to living up to its ideals.

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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. We're never going to have a post-racial society...
Nor should we. What we need is to affirm the black experience and culture, and respect it. As Gergen said, it's a "different form of patriotism", and we can include and respect the black community in all its diversity without assimilating it into the dominant white culture. And the white culture shouldn't be dominant in the first place, but I don't know how we change that. It's so complex....but, it's good to have the discussion.
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. You can't move forward if you don't know where you've been.
eom
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. But hasn't everyone's experience been different?
I just want an America where everybody gets treated well. Let us say that magically happens right now (yeah I know I'm taking a leap here). Would we then still need to dwell on what happened in the past?
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. dwell?
I fucking hate that word when it comes to our history.

I'm not dwelling on anything. I'm trying to understand why things are the way they are.

I want to understand why we still have children being born in inner city ghetto environments. I want to know why so many man black men go to prison. If finding out the answers to this questions is "dwelling," then so be it.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. GREAT quote! And Welcome to DU, nsd and LoveTruth!
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 04:23 PM by calimary
Did you come up with that quote, jeffrey_X, or did Malcolm? I'd say it's utterly foundational to this particular controversy. We will NEVER understand and we will ALWAYS misinterpret, if we don't get the full context.

And every time anybody in politics starts yammering about how we shouldn't waste time looking back (9/11 Commission, stolen elections, revisiting bush/cheney's high crimes and misdemeanors) 'cause we just need to MOVE ON and MOVE FORWARD, I would love to throw this quote back in their faces. And I intend to!

"You can't move forward if you don't know where you've been."

:thumbsup:
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
61. I may have heard it before
or it might be original. If it is original, I'll give credit to my wife.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. I would definitely think and hope not, no.
The goal should be to have a diverse population able to value that diversity rather than exploit it.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
83. You want to erase the black cultural experience to make America greater?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R Gergen was great n/t
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yes - and this is what is so stupefying to watch. Peoples comments being
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:03 AM by bluerum
taken not only out of their original context, but being shoehorned into different life experiences. Of course they don't fit, and the media plays on that facet of the conversation.

Scum rabble rousers like Hannity and O'Reily typify the media addiction to hysteria mongering by telling their low functioning acolytes that "those people are different, they threaten our identity, they must be vilified" over and over and over again.

Gergen takes a refreshing and intelligent "what is this person trying to say" approach, rather than jumping on the black scare bandwagon. Why is it so difficult to understand that people have diverse experiences, and that that are not right or wrong per say, simply different.

Diversity and the willingness to accept it and listen to each-other is a strength.
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. Gergen just nails it.
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1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. Thank God for Open Minds! Isn't that what a Dem is suppose to have? The new Pastor Rev. Moss bio..

...states "His passion for youth and intergenerational ministry led him to create the Issachar Movement, a consulting group designed to bridge the generation gap within churches and train a new generation of prophetic church leadership."

I said and continue to say it is a generazational thing that we all should put in perspective. I lived through the 60's and remember the passion of MLK's speeches.

Here is the full article on Rev. Moss:

http://www.tucc.org/pastoral_staff.htm

Rev. Otis Moss III
Pastor, Trinity United Church of Christ

Prior to joining the pastoral staff at Trinity United Church of Christ, Rev. Moss served as pastor of the historic Tabernacle Baptist Church in Augusta, Georgia. After his arrival, Tabernacle was blessed, through Christ, to go from 125 members to over 2100 disciples.

Rev. Moss received his BA in Religion and Philosophy from Morehouse College where he served as Student Government President. During his matriculation at "the House," he was inducted as a Ford Foundation Scholar, named by the NCAA as an All-American Track and Field athlete and graduated with honors.

He continued graduate work at Yale University and was awarded the FTE Benjamin Elijah Mays Scholarship in Religion and the Yale University Magee Fellowship. Rev. Moss is recorded as one of the few African-Americans to ever receive this award in the schools' 300-year history. Rev. Moss graduated from Yale with a Master of Divinity degree with a concentration in Ethics and Theology.

After finishing seminary, Rev. Moss journeyed to Denver, Colorado to pursue a Ph.D. in Religion and Social Change at the University of Denver/Iliff School of Theology, under the tutelage of African-American historian and theologian, Dr. Vincent Harding. While not completing the program due to his call to serve the Tabernacle Baptist Church he maintains a high level academic commitment to research and teaching. He has been Adjunct Professor of Voorhees College, Guest Lecturer for the Interdenomonatial Theological Center, Emory University, Presbyterian College, Paine College, Dillard University, Howard University, Yale, Harvard University and Morehouse College. While in Denver, he continued his ministry to youth and young adults as the assistant to the pastor and Minister of Youth Programs at New Hope Baptist Church. Pastor James D. Peters, D.Min became a mentor to Rev. Moss and inspired in him a love for African-American homiletics and church history.

Rev. Moss has done extensive research in the areas of African-American culture, theology and youth development. Four-G published his first book, Redemption in a Red Light District, in December of 1999. His essays, articles and poetry have appeared in The African American Pulpit Journal, Sojourners Magazine, and the Urban Spectrum. The African American Pulpit Journal recently named Reverend Moss one of the "20 to watch" ministers who will shape the future of the African American church. Belief.Net named Rev. Moss as one of the future religious leaders who will impact the African-American Church. As a result of his commitment to intergenerational ministry and prophetic preaching Rev. Moss has had the honor of speaking at the Hampton University Ministers and Musicians Conference on three occasions. This is largest African American ecumenical conference in the nation. In addition he holds the distinction of being the youngest lecturer ever to present to this body.

His passion for youth and intergenerational ministry led him to create the Issachar Movement, a consulting group designed to bridge the generation gap within churches and train a new generation of prophetic church leadership.

His love for God and young people has led him to speak and preach in churches, seminaries and colleges across the globe; Including places such as South Africa, Bermuda, Puerto Rico and Egypt. Newsweek magazine cited Rev. Moss as one of "God's foot Soldiers' committed to transforming the lives of youth. Currently Rev. Moss serves as a frequent guest commentator on the Naomi Judd New Morning Show on The Hallmark Network He is the husband of Monica Brown Moss a graduate of Spelman College and Columbia University and the son of Dr. Otis (Edwina) Moss, Jr. of Cleveland, Ohio. They have one son, Elijah Wynton Taylor Moss and one daughter, Makayla Elon Moss.

..........

The Church is very lucky to have this outstanding person as their Pastor.
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NDambi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. "And it's not a lack of patriotism. It is a different form of patriotism."
There it is!!!!

Thanks David...eloquently put.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
81. Kind of like a white supremacist gathering in Idaho, but different.
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morningglory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
22. White, rural perspective here: In low-income areas, like much of the south
of the past (I am 61 close to Wright's generation) people had to stick together and help each other out. The church was a cohesive unit. Poor areas do not get the smart pastors schooled in world religions and theology. As a result, by the time an intelligent person is 12 years old, they realize the pastor is ignorant, and start to separate themselves. They decide to leave skidmarks getting out of the place they are in, or remain as a part of the community, or find one of the liberal-minded Presbyterian, or whatever, churches further away. One ends up out of the funeral-wedding-babyshower celebrations that bring communities together. You strike out on your own. I can empathize with educated blacks who do not want to turn away from their communities, especially a community activist such as Obama, and just ignore some of the beliefs of the pastor. You can love them anyway. I can see it. When I was in elementary school there was a much-loved pope, John XXIII. My sunday school teacher that I loved very much, said all
Catholics are going to hell. I asked her if Pope John was going to hell. She said emphatically "Yes!" Right then, I started to have a problem with religion. Then in the 8th grade, Kennedy was running for president. My whole family were Democrats and were for Kennedy, especially me because he was so handsome. My preacher that I loved very much said that the vatican would be running our country if Kennedy was elected. That just did it for me. I thought "these people are insane!" and just stopped going to church. It was a very hard choice to make in that milieu. Now, as a grownup I could think that was a stupid thing to say, but he can't help being ignorant. Just my 2 cents...
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. An excellent 2 cents. Thanks n/t
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
87. That's fine, but Wright's apparently known as a scholar.
I for one find this whole Charismatic "Megachurch" movement disturbing and un-Christian, but I also do not belive in switching churches cafeteria-style...
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morningglory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I would not be surprised Wright is
a scholar. Educated people can have wacky ideas, too. I have many. I was "born into" the Southern Baptist religion, and felt I needed to make my own choice, being a free-thinking child. Now mostly just a spiritual person. Would like to attend the UUC, but it is 10 miles from my home and don't want to drive a long way to attend a church.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. knr
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R n/t
:kick:
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sure beats the calls for "Forced Conversion"
that some "HRC supporters" here are advocating for Barack and his wife.

"he should leave that church!"
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. Hillary supporters think black Christians are a bunch of terrorists.
It reminds one of the Nazis condemning the Jews. "THE ENEMY WITHIN!!" Sickening.

I can only hope we have reached the lowest slime of the stinking, rotten "kitchen sink" strategy.

Her scummy camapign will only hurt Hillary in the long-term. Her desperate power grab has exposed her corruption.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Whoa. Now there is a well considered, generic broadbrush condemnation.
Congratulations. You insulted and demeaned millions of people in four short invective filled sentences.
:spank: :thumbsdown:
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
78. Unless she needs their vote
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
79. This is the kind of BS that will guarantee good Democrats stay home come Nov.
There are a great many black Christians who count themselves among Clinton's supporters. Including my mother and my sister. And they continue to count themselves as Clinton supporters largely because of the antics of some* of you in the Obama camp who insist on painting this as an us vs. them struggle between whites and blacks, Christians and LGBT, old folks and young folks, and on and fucking on all the while preaching about so-called unity. Black folks are not a monolithic people and we don't need a fucking savior, whether his name is Pastor Barack or High Priestess Hillary.

Hillary Clinton hasn't said shit on this controversy, nor should she. Keep this shit up though, in the name of your candidate, and you'll be begging President McCain for your ration of Koolaid while you watch Shock and Awe 2: Iranian Boogaloo on CNN.


*Note the way I did not condemn all Obama supporters the way you just shat all over the millions of Clinton supporters. I have good friends who are Obama supporters, including right here on DU. Painting with a broadbrush only gets paint splattered on yourself.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. I love David Gergen. He is one of the best pundits out there. This is so true.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. Good on David Gergen, he IS a voice of reason....
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:18 PM by Spazito
He has always struck me as a man of integrity, he is a Republican by virtue of his conservative views, an old-style Republican and NOT the rabid, extremist neocon republican of today.

I suspect he is very saddened by what has happened to his party.

Edited to add:

Mr. Gergen's comments brought to mind for me, a Canadian, my experience as a white Canadian child growing up and going to school with First Nation children. While I left my home, saying goodbye to my Mom and Dad, the First Nation children I went to school with left their residential "school" where they were forced to live after being torn from the arms of their parents, punished if they dared speak their own language, emotionally, physically and sexually abused before and after they were in school with me. I doubt the celebration of Canada Day brings back any particularly happy thoughts for them either and their view of Canada, based on their life experiences, would and should be very different than mine. They have, by telling the truth about their experiences and the effects on their lives, made me look at my country with much more realistic eyes than I would have done otherwise.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
35. Gergen is often the voice of reason...
I was glad to hear him say this last night ~ thanks for posting!
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
36. well said
thanks for posting this. Kicked and recommended.
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CitizenLeft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
38. he's always been fair...
I remember when he was the only pundit to defend Sandy Berger when he was accused of smuggling papers out of the... heck, was it the Library of Congress? I forget the details, but he was very indignant, saying that he'd known Sandy Berger for years, and he'd never do something like that (uh oh). Regardless of the fact that Berger did do it, he stuck his neck out and I admired him for doing so at the time. (dammit, Sandy!)
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jeffrey_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. I saw that last night as well..
Thank goodness for David Gergen bringing some much needed perspective to this issue.

I hope he is more vocal in the coming days.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
44. This is how I see it. Why is Gergen the only media voice of reason?
Of COURSE the black American experience is going to inform how they view the nation, and that experience is also why their style of churchgoing has surprised so many white Americans who are used to quiet churchgoers sitting on their hands.

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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
45. Yes! Exactly.
It's not part of my story, so it would be all too easy to get all heated up and indignant over this. But the fact is that because it's not part of my history (my people weren't even here during slavery!) I have an obligation to my fellow citizens to be cognizant of their stories and ready to listen when they differ from my own.

I thought Obama had a good way of talking about it last night on Olbermann as well - Wright represents a different generation, a generation which was in the forefront of the fight for civil rights. It wasn't a theoretical fight for them, or a nice clean one. It was real in a tangible, physical way. There are still people justifiably angry at the progress that we still have to make. But Obama is the next generation, one that has benefitted to some extent from the sacrifices of his elders. He's the next hopeful step toward increased dialogue and understanding. I think that's good. But that dialogue doesn't even have a chance of happening if people from the older generations are just told to shut up and be quiet. They've earned the right to their anger, I think. Now it's time for anyone who cares about civil rights in this country to pick up from there and move forward.

I really think this is much ado about nothing. These aren't Obama's words, and Rev. Wright isn't running for office.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
47. Thank you David Gergen
K&R :kick:
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
48. The only question is how many Americans are as enlightened, on this issue ...
... as Gergen appears to be.
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BOHICA06 Donating Member (886 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. Nope ..... reason is not their strong point.
It doesn't appear to be Rev. Wright's either! He has just sunk Sen. Obama's chance at the Presidency.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I think Obama's chances are still good.
And Rev. Wright hasn't "just" done anything, putting aside the issue of whether his anything is anything of relevance.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
51. Excellent post.
Thanks for sharing this.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
53. K&R
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MzShellG Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
56. I was kind of surprised by that. Isn't he a Hillary supporter? nt
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. Oh - that means he can't defend the black exprience. You better write and remind him.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
57. Gergen really gained my respect last night when everyone around him jumped to condemn Wright.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 06:32 PM by flpoljunkie
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
62. Gergen showed me a lot there
I always respected him, now I am on the way toward revering him.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
63. Absolutely right.
I wish I could recommend this more than once!
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dancingme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
64. I respect Gergen and hope to hear more of him
on the cable stations instead of Pat Buchanan
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
65. There needs to be an appreciation for difference of opinion about 9/11 as well.
Wright is right about chickens (American foreign policy errors in the Islamic world in the 20th century) coming home to roost in the 21st century, for example. The media, hearing echoes of Malcolm X's remarks on the Kennedy statement, can't hear--let alone deal with--the truth in Wright's statement, and they want Obama to lie to them and the American people, to rehash the same boilerplate everyone who looks honestly at the roots of 9/11 has to be scolded with.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
88. Remember when Bill Maher was fired for saying the same stuff Wright said?
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
66. WAIT A MINUTE. Isn't Gergen just as LAZY and IRRESPONSIBLE a reporter as any of
the rest of them? I agree he seems, unlike most ambitious talking heads on TV, to retain some semblance of ordinary human decency. But IMO he's not doing his job either. When are any of the 24-hour news cycle outlets going to run truly balanced PROFILES of Jeremiah wright. Very few people seem to know anything about who the man is and what he has accomplished. See, for example, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Do YOU trust Sean Hannity to be "fair and balanced" in his cherry-picking of two or three minutes from thousands of hours of Wright's sermons over 36 years? As I understand it, there are so many audio and video tapes of Wright because he's one of the most outstanding sermonizers of his generation. Why can't reporters just do their JOBS?
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Doug.Goodall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
67. This is a case of the right-wing fundamentalists getting even
They think pointing out Mitt Romney is a Mormon was an attack on his religion, now the are making a attempt to take out my man Obama just to 'get even.'

Right-wingers just plain stink.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
69. Profound
What to a slave is the fourth of July - Frederick Douglass. That's one of my favorite speeches of all time. Gergen is correct. There would have been no Martin Luther King without Douglass. This is a long tradition in the African churches in America and the Caribbean. It has always been the gospel of liberation.

I still don't understand the fuss.

http://www.nathanielturner.com/fourthofjulyspeech.htm
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Oslo Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
70. Wing-nut Pastor John Hagee endorses McCain
Also during the CNN broadcast, we learned about John Hagee, who seemed just as "extreme" as Rev. Wright.

<http://prorev.com/2008/02/mccain-welcomes-support-from-... >

"Hard-line conservative Pastor John Hagee, founder of Christians United for Israel, endorsed John McCain. Hagee said that McCain "is a man of principle, does not stand boldly on both sides of any issue." McCain, who had been courting the endorsement for over a year, said that he was "very honored by Pastor John Hagee's endorsement.". . . McCain's acceptance of Hagee's endorsement was condemned today by conservative William Donohue, president of the Catholic League. Calling Hagee a "bigot," Donahue said the right-wing pastor has waged "an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church" by "calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.'"

Hagee holds many other radical beliefs. In a 2006 address to CUFI, Hagee declared: "The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West… a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation, and Second Coming of Christ.

Speaking to the 2007 AIPAC conference, Hagee compared supporters of a two-state solution in the Middle East to Nazis. Hagee also echoed right-wing Israeli politician Binyamin Netanyahu, telling the audience that "Iran is Germany and Ahmadinejad is the new Hitler."
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Taxmyth Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
71. Not so much the Pastor's words
though I do find them offensive but if a candidate belonged to a church that proudly proclaimed itself a white church in it's motto and literature that candidate would be run out of town. What's good for the goose etc.
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. No need to advertise "white church" or "black church" -- just giving out the address
would be more than sufficient 99 percent of the time in most cases in this country, unfortunately.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
74. It's disconcerting to realize I agree with David Gergen on something
Even my socialist nephew agrees with his comment. Maybe the Hillary campaign will come out with a statement that Frederick Douglass was a racist?
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
75. Intelligent comments. I think he gives us a lot to consider. n/t
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
76. AMEN! I've always respected him as well. He's an honest/objective analyst. n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
77. History . . . ??? I think he means the propaganda of white male history . . .
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damndude Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
89. funny how some have chose to decry the black church going experience
a this time as unpatriotic and un american in joseph wright's invocation of the inequalities in American society along financial and racial lines, the governments preference for fighting wars f it's own making abroad rather than fighting the real war here at home being conducted on its own people by corrupt politicians, corporations and government agencies. but when joseph lowery did just about the same thing in eulogizing coretta scott king at her funeral in the presence of bill clinton, hillary clinton and george w. bush he received a standing ovation and all democratic black and white, male and female celebrated his statements. and they were made in the presence of a former and a sitting president.
and i actually am ambivalent on joseph wrights sermons, those that have been played seems to be all about smoke with no fire for me.
i do think we need to put this all in perspective though and remember that we are all of us democrats and all this petty bickering between the two campaigns and what amounts to to one camp's intention to destroy the other by any means necessary even to the ruin of the party's chances in november is not helping to develop and organized effective plan to take the formidable candidate that is john mccain.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
90. Thanks for sharing this elizm, it does sort of put things into perspective....
for those who don't understand Rev. Wright's righteous indignation. I know where he was coming from, and though I wish he had chosen different language in one instance, I can certainly appreciate his take on life in America for blacks.

Some people don't get that most blacks haven't enjoyed the riches, the same opportunities as the rest of America. I'm a former Edwards supporter, but in all honesty, there's more than Two Americas.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
91. "God Damn America!" is pretty clear, and is not a "different form of patriotism."
I am wondering if Gergen saw the videotape. What I saw was not "a different view of America" or "a different form of patriotism." What I saw, what I heard, was the flip side of the white supremacist groups.

At some point, a person's just gotta say....that's unacceptable. There may be reasons for their view, there may be some justification for some of their viewpoints, there be factual truth to some of what they say. But there's a line, and a decent person has GOT to say...hatred toward any other group of people is wrong.

Even if what Gergen says is true, though, that would mean that an Af. American could not be elected President. Americans are not going to elect someone who doesn't have traditional patriotic views, who thinks saying "God Damn America" is okay if you feel your patriotism differently. It's a person's right to feel and say these things. But you're talking about someone who wants to be elected to the highest office in the country, and wants the object of the hate talk to vote him in. It's just not gonna happen.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
93. "Reverend Wright may love this country more than any of us...
but feel we've fallen short of what we preach and believe."

Thank you, David Gergen. This time, you have it right.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
94. K&R
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
96. black history needs to be part of all history
our history books are a bit sanitized, and we grow up thinking we
are entitled to everything we took.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
97. Sounds like she has been listening to Wright!
"I've had a young woman tell me, "July 4, we still can't celebrate it in my family, because of what's happened to us."

So whether or not Blacks aren't really proud of America is what this campaign/election has boiled down to? I thought it was about Iraq, health care, education etc. Obama has derailed this election to that of a fight over civil rights. That's disturbing as that's a different subject. Now I want to talk politics and help determine who's going to be the next SCJ.

So who was it now that made this election racial? Seems to me Hillary wants to talk about the issues and Obama supporters want to discuss racial relations.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
99. K&R True Progressives already knew this...
good post
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
100. indeed
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
101. guys like Gergen give the Republican leadership more heartburn than democrats
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
102. How cowardly for Obama to disavow Wrights statements when white Gergen
is out there defending him.
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