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Just because you don't agree or they cause discomfort, Wright's sermons aren't "hate speech"

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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:33 AM
Original message
Just because you don't agree or they cause discomfort, Wright's sermons aren't "hate speech"
Jeremaiah Wright's comments have been in recent days frequently described as "hate speech." They are not. He has not encouraged that anyone hate anyone or anything. He is expressing anger, but anger is not the same as hate.

Many people in our community, whether you agree with them or not, feel frustration, anger and hurt about the history and current conditions of this country. It is especially frustrating that this perspective is consistently either ignored or mischaracterized as "hate" whenever we are actually heard.

Instead of lashing out at Wright and wrongly accusing him of "hate speech," why aren't people actually listening to what he is saying and trying to learn from it. You don't have to agree with him or think he is right to try to empathize with the sentiment, which is not limited to Rev. Wright.

Trust me, most black Americans do NOT hate this country. One of the reasons so many of us are so angry is that we LOVE this country so much. This is our home. This is part of our heritage. It is our progeny because we BUILT this country and are as much a part of it as anyone else. Yet to this day, we are marginalized, discounted and purposely misunderstood at every turn. And in those rare instance in which it looks like we might be coming close to catching up, we are smacked down again hard. And no matter how hard we try, we are ALWAYS reminded that we are black, that we are different, that we aren't quite full-blown Americans.

My father is about Wright's age. He grew up in a time when he was discriminated against, not only by his fellow white Americans, but by his government. He was beaten up for trying to swim in a public pool. He fought for this country in World War II in an Army that didn't think he was good enough to sleep, eat or live in the same quarters as white soldiers. He was refused service in restaurants, barber shops, hotels from coast to coast (not just in the South) even though he was a high level government official. And to this day, despite his enormous accomplishments and prestige, is still often treated as a second-class citizens by people who should know better. He is asked by building guards whom he is chauffering when he pulls up to garages in his elegant car.

He can't count how many times, while awaiting his own car in front of hotels or restaurants, he has been asked to go fetch someone else's vehicle, as recently as a month ago - one of America's dirty little secrets is that there are still countless white people who continue to assume that a 70-year-old black man standing in front of a hotel in a tuxedo must be there to serve THEM and not there to accept the Lifetime Achievement award that he is holding in his hands. And they believe that it's perfectly acceptable to walk past the 10 similarly dressed white men to approach the distinguished black man IN FRONT OF HIS WIFE, CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN and tell him "Five to the West Side - we'll need two cabs."

My father's reactions to such insults and slights is to feel sorry for those who inflict them, shake his head and walk away. But everyone doesn't react in the same way. Some of us react in the way that Rev. Wright does.

This is enormously frustrating, but we keep on trying. And we keep hoping that the majority will eventually "get it." Some of us try by quietly working within the system, patiently and calmly. But some of us yell at the top of our lungs hoping that will get someone's attention. But it all comes from the same place.

So, this is NOT about hate. This is about LOVE - unrequited love. The love of a country that hasn't lived up to it, but maybe, if we push hard enough, will eventually come to deserve the love, devotion and yes, PATRIOTISM my people have shown it - whether it deserves it or not - for centuries.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hi Effie -
There's only 1 problem with your comments. BO himself said he didn't agree with Wright so whether I think the man is racist doesn't matter in this incident. Obama said HE disagrees. End of story.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Obama has not said that Wright was engaging in "hate speech"
He said he vigorously disagrees with what he said. That is not inconsistent with my point at all.
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Sorry, having a day to honor Farrakhan's "lifetime" achievements
by most Americans would be considered hate speech. Going to Ethiopia with him can be considered hate speech. Standing at the pulpit being a reverse racist is hate speech. Again Obama rejected his comments that were shown on the video...all of those comments on the video were reverse racism hate speech. And on top of it all Obama lied about whether he knew about it. It's not the sin, it's the coverup. That's where we are now, trying to defend the coverup by defending Wright.
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hueyshort Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
60. Whether I agree or not, it is BONE HEADED to
support this church and expect to have a career in national politics.
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anonymeme Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Well, Wright's Words: "God Damn America" & Calling the US "AmeriKKKa" Sound Like HATE Speech to Me.
NT
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Why does it seem that way to you?
The Bible damns America, not Wright. As far as pointing out how incredibly racist this country (AmeriKKa) still is, heck, you'd either have to be blind, or living in monochromatic utopia, to not see it.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #66
82. Ummmm, the Bible precedes the United States by a few years.
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Slagathor Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #82
108. and it is full of hate speech
why it is protected is beyond me.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #66
85. So ALL white Americans are KKK?
Which is what the implication is, don't you think? And isn't a blanket bias what we call "bigotry"?
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Slagathor Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #66
107. I'm sick of this AmeriKKKa shit. It's offensive.
and fuck the bible. It's full of hate speech. The thing should be banned.
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Obama said he didn't agree with what he said in those tapes being played
He acknowledged hundreds of other sermons besides these. I agree with Effie...they are not hate speech.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. great post
beautifully expressed
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. On the other hand, he's not Joel Osteen.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. Joel Osteen the living definition of milquetoast. However, at least he doesn't get divisive.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:46 AM by cryingshame
My father likes him.

Wright really seems to like the fiery sort of rant.

Sounds like a DU'er to me :)
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. according to 60 minutes
Osteen benches about 280, so he's not as much of a preppy little wimp as he looks and sounds like.

Also I once heard Osteen say in one of his talks that people shouldn't criticize President Bush, and I thought that statement was pretty frigging divisive.

I find Osteen mostly interesting and inspiring and I generally despise a "prosperity gospel". Osteen does not talk as much about getting rich though as he does about following your dreams and staying hopeful.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. Joel Osteen is not a Christian preacher. He's Tony Robbins with some Bible passages
I would be embarrassed to go to his church.

(Actually, I would go to his church as long as he was honest about what he was. People can believe whatever they wish. But don't pretend to be something you are not. He's little more than a self-help guru).
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
75. Osteen is a twit.
He dropped out of Oral Roberts University after one semester.

He couldn't pass the religion courses I was required to take at a REAL university that was Presbyterian. All undergrads had to take 6 hours of religion, on any topic they wanted. I was NOT in seminary. This was ALL undergrads.

Buddhism, Old Testament, Nature & Function of Religion, New Testament, Hinduism, Judaism, Ancient Primitive Religions, etc.

The religion department was like an extension of the philosophy department. None of the professors tried to indoctrinate anyone into Christianity.

My professor could read Greek, Latin, English, Spanish, Hebrew, Amharic, Aramaic, Linear B, Akkadian and who knows what else.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
112. He sure isn't. Osteen uphold the power paradigm. Wright rails against it.
And for that he must be stopped.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. They are clearly about bring us together, NOT.
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. AGAIN...Obama is not on the tape, thank you. nt
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. what a disgusting response to a wonderful post
n/t
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. End of that piece of unity nonsense I "hope"
If only it had been real.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
113. Yeah, all that talk of bringing the country together in fine
Until some hard truths are revealed, and white folks get their fee fees hurt.
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. Over and above the effect this had all had on Obama's campaign, I
am having a very difficult time dealing with the slurs that have been put out there about Rev. Wright. I don't know him, have never heard one of his sermons (except for the snippets on the news) and only am aware of what I've read. But I don't doubt that this is a good man who has served his country and his community for decades and is now being vilified in the name of politics. Not to mention the thousands of people who have been a part of that church throughout those years. Because everything people are saying about Obama (lacks judgment, should have left, anti-American, etc.) would equally apply to all the parishoners.

This isn't an attack and smear just on Obama but on an entire church and its pastor, that from what I've read has had an enormous positive impact on the community it serves.

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CatsDogsBabies Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I agree
with this as well. The way people are overreacting to this is just plain disgusting.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
43. I agree & the knee jerk partisan reactions on DU are curiously freeper like in their rhetoric
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fight4my3sons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. so true
So many times I have been shopping with my best friend (I am white, she is black) and the person working in the store speaks to me first or only asks me if I need help. I did a whole paper about white privilege in american education during graduate school. If only people would wake up. So many want to pretend that it does not exist.

I'm sorry that happened to your father. :hug:
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. But--is it political speech?
I attend church, and never hear anything like what Rev. Wright says. If it is political speech, should his church lose its tax exempt status? Where do you draw the line?
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I attend a mostly black church and hear it all the time...all the time...
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. political speech is not prohibited
The church can't endorse a candidate, but it can engage in political activity and speech. And the prohibition against endorsement is a very narrow one - a church/pastor can walk right up to the line, talk about why one candidate is great and another one is terrible. They just can't go the next step and say, "vote for x" or "vote against y."
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Okay, I understand that--
but I can't tell you how many times I've read stuff on DU about the "fundy" churches, and their "code words" like "family values," etc. And wanting to tax the crap out of them for stuff like that.

Understanding that the Democratic Party is a big tent, if we can't get together and define stuff like acceptable political speech/unacceptable, how can we hope to govern?

(Also, I understand that DU is not the Democratic Party itself. Mostly, this is just a Saturday a.m. mental exercise, as I finish my morning coffee! :) )
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. Please don't tell me that video wasn't an endorsement
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MzShellG Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. He did not state that he endorsed Obama. Assume what you want.
Rev. Wright was simply speaking positively about a fellow church member and friend. Pastors do that in church all the time. It's not prohibited.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. "Hillary Clinton was never called a ^^^^^^^"
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 08:16 PM by RestoreGore
yeah, no endorsement of Obama.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Ministers and churches are free to offer their opinions about political candidates
They can say, "Candidate X is the best thing since sliced bread and Candidate Y is a low-down dirty dog." As long as they don't say, "Vote for X or Vote for Y," they are within the bounds of the law that govern their non-profit status.

That's the law, whether you like it or not.

And under the law, he did NOT endorse Obama, no matter how many times people try to claim he did.

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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
38. Sadie: I agree with you
It is political speech and also speech supporting one candidate over another in a church which I do believe is a violation of the separation of church and state. But it's OK if Obama's ex minister does it. And just to be clear, I feel the same way about it in the McCain campaign and Clinton's. Religion needs to stay OUT of politics. This minister's speech did connotate to me as well that blacks should vote for Obama because Clinton is white and doesn't know what it is to be black and that she is part of that "rich white man's world" even though she is a woman and has been called bitch, witch, whore, and other assorted names because of it. The point I would then raise with him is, how then is it that Michelle Obama has a position on a corporate board and a million dollar home, and Obama is where he is if the rich white man's world has been keeping them down? Isn't he now part of that "rich white man's world" by running in it?
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think most people realize that talking about racisim isn't racism itself.
And that's why he's going to survive this easily.

:headbang:
rocknation
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Don't count on it, their next move will be to catch him in a lie.
Obama repeatedly said he wasn't present for these sermons.
They're not going to take that at face value.
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CatsDogsBabies Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. I agree
people don't like hearing things that make them uncomfortable.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. His rants are hateful
.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. and yours are.. loving?
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks for your post Effie. I don't view it as hate speech, either.
If it makes you feel any better, I have a feeling many people will watch the tapes and react the way you and I did and feel Barack is being unfairly accused once again. It might actually bring more people to his side.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
92. That's a lovely way of looking at it, Vinca.
Another wonderful post by Effie, too.

If you haven't seen it yet, take a moment to read this excellent post by Andrew Sullivan:

What Obama Saw in Wright's Church

And this equally excellent, education post about the TUCC over at Jack and Jill:

Trying to Attack Obama through his Church
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. Don't preach to me or tell me what to think
I can think for myself, and I believe saying "Goddamn America" is hateful towards this country irrespecive of how I feel about this government and their actions. I love this country and would never condone anyone saying to damn it. And I certainly wouldn't get on TV to spin it and give the milquetoast "denunciation" Obama did to try to backpeddle on it. Some unity.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. People can only present logic and context; no one can change your opinions
thats why so many people watching fox news still think Iraq was responsible for 9-11 and no one can change their opinions and they have a right to their opinions - even if they are not based on anything factual
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. yes, and just like thinking Obama is perfect which is not factual either....
But certainly considered "racist" lately in this neck of the woods.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
84. Are you sure that in your...
'neck of the woods', he was ever considered anything else? It cracks me up when people try to hide what is so obvious about who they are. Why do you think Obama is 'perfect'? If I recall he has admitted to making several mistakes. No, I believe it is his opponent that states that claim.
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
24. One thing....
we have learned from Obama supporters. We now know that anything negative about HRC is "something", and anything negative about Obama is "nothing". You can't argue with logic like that, just as you couldn't argue with Bush supporters and the logic used for supporting GW Bush. They have used the race card like a brick-bat to hammer home their ludicrous claims that HRC, and app. half the Democratic Party are racist, but somehow manage to honor and laud those who are clearly stating their own racial bias. The history of the Obama supporters has already been written in 2000, and 2004. Only the names and labels have changed.
quickesst
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. Bull Shit!
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Bjorn Against Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
26. Great post Effie, you are right people just don't want to understand...
I was about to write another post on this very issue. I am white so I have never experienced what it is like to be black in America, but just from what I have observed I am able to see where Wright is coming from. We have seen so much racism on this site in the last week, and I would like to believe that people here are more sensitive to issues of race than the general population. When it has been so ugly here, it scares me to think what the Republicans are saying right now. We obviously have a long way to go to reach equality in this country, and until we reach that point people like Wright will be justified in calling out the racism no matter how uncomfortable it may make us feel.
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
27. Regardless,
they aren't going to play well in the general election. Most of America is of the "love it or leave it" persuasion and they don't want to hear bad things about themselves.

I don't think we can win if we can't appeal to middle America.
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Sadie4629 Donating Member (919 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. By the way--
your father obviously has WAY more class than any of the people who have made assumptions about him. If we had more people like him, of every race, we would have a far, far better society than we have.

Kudos to him. You must be so proud.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
29. Well said, Effie. I know you speak for many.

No more Wright/Obama chatter from me. It's a foolish path.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hate speech is alot of DU and free republic - you have the point exactly right
Wright speaks as a prophet who knows the country that they love could and should do better. Unlike empty patriotism consisting of words without action and a blind confidence in anything and everything their country does. Americans in general like their patriotism to not involve thought or action and certainly not sacrifice.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
33. Thank you, great post.
K&R
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. A link to another hate speech
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Bingo!
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. Amen
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
42.  What ever , he comes off as hateful
I would say the same thing if I heard his sort of rant no matter what the color of skin or the type of religion it was .

MLK did not go around screaming , this sort of communication does no one any good .

I can't tell if Wright includes himself in americas attacks on the world or if he is just refering to whites . Wright said we through his rant but then includes whites further on .

I am white and had nothing to do with racism or slavery or americas attacks on other countries .

Is Write saying he believes we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 , if so then he believes the official story and also there were all races killed on 9/11 ?

If I were a memeber of a white church and heard this rant I would have headed for the nearest door .

I do not believe religion has any place in politics .
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. you don't know much about the black religious tradition, do you?
What you so dismissively call "going around screaming" is a rhetorical style common among many black preachers, especially in the Baptist and AME tradition. It might not suit your tastes, but many, many people appreciate and are inspired by that style of preaching and, in fact see it as an important part of our culture and religion.

What you see as "hateful," others may see as impassioned. By the same token, while some may see a diatribe against a religious tradition that we revere to be hateful, insulting and bigoted, I see it as simply ignorance about something to which you have had little if any exposure.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. No I have not had a lot of exposure , however
I did not say "going around screaming "

As human I do understand passion and all the emotions people all share . I also understand the use of language and what each word and phrase means .

I don't feel i have to be a church goer to understand what I hear and see .

To try to twist language into another form and meaning is asking others to be ignorent of language itself .

I don't subscribe to TV mega churches either and I would imagine you do not either , however I would guess you would be quite capable of getting the drift of what they are saying and understand just where they are coming from .

Are you suggesting the words Wright used have a different meaning where only ones who are part of this church could possibly understand as if it is a secrete code .

I know well enough what is acceptable to say and what is not and what to expect the outcome to be . If you can put into words what the message Wright was trying to get across then please , do so .
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. You ignorance is part of the problem
Rev. Write complains that white America has ignored the black community.

This is proof.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Proof of what ?
Man , do you realize that not all whites ignored the black community and not all whites are ignorant or racist . Calling me ignorant is ignorant .

Racism runs from all sides in this shit hole called the USA .

As a white I don't desire to be placed in the same pot as all whites . I did not have a choice to be born or ask to be white or make the rules .

Everyone always asks what color has to do with anything , for me it does not matter .

I would no sooner commend a white man saying the same thing as Wright has said .

My being a white male has never given me a pass in my life , if I did not play the game of the white male club or any club for that matter which involves lying and cheating to get ahead in this corporate society , guess what , by not going along with the rules I am no better off . And make no mistake there are rules and clubs . All you have to be is honest as I am and you lose .
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. You admitted ignorance.
Calling you ignorant is mere acknowledging what you, yourself, said.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. No , you calling me ignorant is nothing more than displaying
your own ignorance . Just for the simple reason you come on here and feel the need to jump on me for admitting I not had much experience with these churches does not mean I have none .

I explained my thought's yet you come out of the ether with insult and added nothing other than to avoid any actual conversation .

Your are defined as a hit and run coward .
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. "no I have not had a lot of exposure"
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:22 PM by theredpen
Jeebus. Your own words are right there, dude.

I suppose you're one of those edumacated-type liberals who knows everything about everything 'cause you took a class about it.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. Well no kidding I can read
That's what I just said isn't it , it does not mean I have had no exposure nor does it mean that I took some class and am now an expert , those are your words and assumptions ,DUDE !

There is such a thing as personal experience that gives me enough info to have an idea about what I am talking about but this does not imply I am an expert , are you an expert ?

I guess you are one of those liberals who has this intense , un-controllable urge to pass judgment who took a class on the handling of the crystal ball and coming up with repetitive drivel .

Do you actually have a point to express that has anything to do with what anyone here has said or is this personal ? I have not read anything here if you have . ie , do you have a bug ?
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. I don't know what you're so upset about
You've attack me and gone on and on and on about... I can't follow it. All I did was highlight your own admission that you have a lack of direct knowledge and this is part of the problem: people with little exposure to something who feel entitled to weight in on it. That's all I have to say.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. i think
people get real defensive when you call them ignorant. You're both talking on different levels. Blues poster needs to understand that being ignorant of "something" is different than being Ignorant.

:shrug:

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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
110. Thanks
Yes, I just meant ignorant on that topic, not on everything!
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #74
117. I don't need anyone to define what ignorant means
I well know the difference or being ignorant of something and being ignorant / closed minded to all around me as in being racist or sexist as two examples .

However simply because I am not black or had a year long membership of a church specific does not display ignorance on my part . it displays being open minded .

Since you have no weighed in what have you to say about what Wright has said or are you also going to focus on just me ?

Was not this the point of the OP ?
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
115. I don't feel I need to be an expert to weigh in .
You don't see what you did . I weigh in with an opinion based on what I heard and saw Rev Wright say . I am 59 and have been around long enough with enough exposure or years of hearing similar church events and seeing some first hand out of curiousity . I have even gone to the extent of visiting a few born again churches knowing a few people who belonged to them as well as knowing a few black people who took me to their church .

Simply because I am white does in no way put me in the racist or ignorant catagory .

Words have specific meanings as do the sentences they make up to project an emotion or idea , This cannot be twisted to mean something else .

You have not commented on the OP , all you have done is come out of nowhere and single me out as ignorant based on your own judgment and opinion .

So what do you call this other than an attack without basis or defense of the OP , you have not committed yourself in any other fashion nor have explained your rational .
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #48
100. You said, "MLK did not go around screaming , this sort of communication does no one any good "
I did not put words in your mouth - I cut and pasted from your own post.

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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #100
118. This is not putting words in your mouth
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 01:21 PM by blues90
You are picking bits of what I said out of the context of all I said .

I used MLK as an example of a better way of communicating and that's all . If MLK used the words such as Wright had MLK would have never gotten very far and this is all I was pointing out .

I can use the KKK as an example of using hate and anger which only serves to put a wall up against communication and they are out of their minds for doing so . They are white but in no way represent my feelings and i never went to a KKK meeting to know they were wrong . But I do know they were a wedge that only caused damage and death and should be stopped long ago .

What this country does not need is more logs put on the fire no matter who does it , what we need is to come together to work this crap out or we go nowhere .
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. k&r
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
45. K & R
Thanks for offering this. This story has great potential to educate if people are open to it.
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. i am leaning Obama
and I viewed Rev. Wright's speeches as quite hateful. Forunately I am able to separate Obama and his pastor, just as my pastor does not speak for me. But I looked at Mr. Wright and saw a man engulfed by hatred of white America. Doesn't mean it's true. Just means it's what I saw. I am glad Obama got out in front of it quickly and condemned it. I think we haven't seen the last of those videos, however. The RNC must have been gleeful when they ran across those. (sigh)
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
51. Thanks for writing this. KR.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
52. Thank you Effie!
Thank you for sharing.

Your piece made me cry because I also know the truth on this.

Unfortunately, what made me cry even harder were the hateful responses.

Your OP speaks of the America that we are and those posters reinforce that.

We only have HOPE that a majority with more empathy than those
hateful posters will be moved by a post such as yours.

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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
53. Eloquent as usual Effie
K and R
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
54. Well, I am not sure. The only thing I have heard him say that I disagree about
is that the AIDS virus was cooked up in a lab by white men to murder all blacks.

I agree with him about U.S. murder and 9-11. I'm just glad I'm not an old white man, although my father is, and he's not the monster that the good Pastor says he is.

I think this entire "scandal" could be put to bed in some more constructive way than pleading the case for the speeches this guy is making.
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. Incidentally, What did Reverend Wright say about Israel that had John Rothmann
so upset last night? He wouldn't repeat the quote, but it had to be something.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #55
79. "Israel is a dirty word" - not hate, because ya know, it's the Jews - It's OK to hate THEM
:sarcasm:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
57. Effie...
I just posted another post that correlates with your post. I had not read your post at the time. But you are right.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
64. OBAMA THINKS IT'S HATE SPEECH. NT
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #64
80. But what does he know?
:shrug:
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
65. Maybe there is some more productive way to defend what this pastor has said.
I'm an Obama supporter, but I'm finding it hard to make a case that Wright's quotes are defensible.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. You don't have to defend what he said if you don't agree with it
But I do wish that people would recognize that, even if they don't agree with him, that he has reasons for seeing things the way he does.

I have seen many of the same sentiments expressed right here on DU. Interestingly, people seem to have no problem bitching about this country, its government, its behavior, its policies, etc., when their complaints are directed at Republicans or other "bad guys." But they are now screaming bloody murder that this minister has the TEMERITY to express these same views - in the same tone as many posts we see here.

I can't help but think that some people are offended not at what was said but by who said it. It seems to be a circling of the wagons that I often see when black people criticize white people. White folk seem perfectly comfortable criticizing each other in the strongest, most virulent terms. But the minute a black person criticizes a white person, some white folk (certainly not all) see this as an unacceptable breach and they band together to defend one another against the onslaught from the "outsider."

I think that's exactly what is happening here and it sickens me. I don't believe that every white person who is criticizing Wright is engaging in this dynamic, but this phenomenon is clearly at play in much of the double-standard, hypocritical fake outrage we're witnessing from some people.
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
72. Well, he's clear about how black men have been discriminated...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 PM by Zookeeper
against. It's just too bad that some of that understanding and awareness doesn't extend to women. I say this based on Wright's statement that Obama, a black man, has it worse than Clinton, a white women, because black men have trouble hailing taxis and because they are judged by the color of their skin.

He is conveniently overlooking that a woman of any color could be raped and murdered while she's waiting for that cab, just because she's a woman.

Please, let's not say that Wright's message is OK, just to try to protect Obama. I don't even care about this anti-U.S. rant, but his race-baiting and claim that black men are more oppressed than women is really obnoxious.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
73. Outstanding Post Effie !!! - K & R !!!
Absolutely beautiful!

And don't pay too much attention to the numbskulls who don't get it. Most of them never will.

The only thing worse than stupidity, is willful ignorance.

But this train has left the station, and the bigots and ignoramuses grow smaller in number each year as they die off and are replaced by newer generations who are far more enlightened that their predecessors.

It's still a struggle, as is obvious even today, but it gets better with time.

Peace...

:hi:
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
76. Wright reminds me of ALL fundamentalist Christians.

Rev. Wright says "You are evil because you are white".


Christians get in my face and say "You are evil because you're a sinner. Believe the way I do or else you're going to hell".

Even members of my own family have said this.

And then they wonder why I never speak to them again.

I used to belong to a black church. I was the first white person to join in 125 years. ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.

And I left, because I couldn't stand to be insulted from the pulpit.
Not because I was white, but because I couldn't stand to be told I was evil just because I was breathing and older than an infant.
I have more self-respect than that.


As far as I'm concerned, the doctrine of Original Sin is hate speech, or emotional abuse if you want to call it that. It's a setup. It creates a need where none exists, like advertising.






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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #76
81. When did Wright say "you're evil because you're white?"
He said no such thing. Shame on you.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. You can't shame me.
So don't even try.

He said "White people are evil" like ALL white people are racists.

That's not true.

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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #83
88. You should be ashamed for misrepresenting what Wright said.
He never said "White people are evil." You claim that he did. And you keep repeating it, even though you know that he did not say it.

As I said, shame on you.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. You can't shame me.
He said substantially the same thing.

He uses a broad brush. He thinks ALL white people are racists. Not SOME. He did not qualify it with any adjectives.

You can't shame me. I don't want your Christian morality.

Go away.

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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #90
97. Obviously, you're not capable of shame - and keep repeating the same lie over and over again
and offer absolutely nothing to back it up.

You keep saying that Wright thinks that "all white people are racist" - he said no such thing. You are either knowingly lying or so frightened at the idea that a black man has the nerve to say something that makes some white people uncomfortable that you think he MUST be a racist.

How sad for you.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #97
99. Don't pity me, either. Just go away.
You think your shame and pity judgments will bother me???

ALL white people are NOT evil, but he's painting with a broad brush.

Go find somebody else to judge.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
116. Link To Quote Please !!!
If you are going to assert it, you need to prove it.

Waiting...

:shrug:
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carlotta Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
77. Rev. Wright "hearts" Farrakhan
who certainly does engage in hate speech. Wright's magazine "The Trumpeter" made Farrakhan their "Man of the Year" saying that Farrakhan truly "epitomizes greatness". Wright is Farrakhan with the volume turned down a little.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
78. YES, they are hate speech. Yes they are.
Substitute "white" for "black" and vice versa in his "sermons" and there you have it.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #78
87. If blacks were in the minority and subjugated white Americans for centuries, it would make
sense to "substitute 'white' for 'black'" in Wright's sermons. But since that's not the case, it would be a silly exercise.

Wright expressed a point of view that many people share and it is not "racist." It is based on fact. Sadly, it makes many people uncomfortable - partly because they have never heard that perspective before. But it doesn't make it any less valid or important.

He did NOT engage in hate speech. Yes, he expressed anger. Yes, he expressed a view that doesn't comport with the rosy "America the Beautiful" concept that some folk love to embrace. But it was NOT hate speech. In fact, it was much milder than many of the diatribes that are all-too-common right here on DU. The difference is that, instead of directing his comments to one particular candidate or one particular political party, he criticized elements in this country that have degraded, demonized and discriminated against African Americans throughout history. That apparently makes some people extremely uncomfortable.

A black person's criticism of the behavior of certain white people is NOT hate speech, no matter how many times you try to label it as such.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #78
89. Substitute white for black?
I think that is what we should be doing. Walk in somebody else's shoes. There are too many people that don't like to see who we are, and what is done in our name. These days Uncle Sam doesn't care about you either. While you're railing against a black preacher you are being sold down the river by the very same 'white man' the preacher is talking about. Instead of uniting as people so we might have a chance of doing something to change the Politics and Policies that are destroying our country you would prefer to assist in the destruction.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
86. What I heard was "hate speech." I know racist talk when I hear it, no matter where it comes from.
The fact that it came from an Af. American doesn't make it just "a differing view." It was hate speech, pure and simple. The same thing that could come out of the mouth of a white supremacist, only in reverse. Blaming an entire group of people, and speaking about them hatefully, for the problems of an entire group of other people - that's the hallmark of racism.

You can try to spin it, but "God Damn America" says his feelings loudly and clearly. Not the normal sort of thing you hear from a pastor, is it? But the sort of thing you hear from a, say, Farakhan.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #86
94. What did he say that was "racist?" Please be specific
And don't say that "God Damn America" is racist. You might not like it, but it is NOT racist. It is in fact similar to what many, many white people - including Thomas Jefferson - have said.

And as for what "normal sort of thing you hear from a pastor," what exactly do you know about what is "normally" heard from a pastor?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #94
119. Now you're thinking that our forefathers said "God Damn America"? What planet do you live on?
What he said that was racist....as I said in my post above...is that he blamed an entire group of people, based on their skin color, for the problems of another group of people, based on THEIR skin color. That is the hallmark of racism.

It doesn't make it NOT racism because he was blaming "rich, white people" for the problems of "black people." It's racism, no matter what the races are.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. Thomas Jefferson said something very, very close to it:
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #86
96. whatever works for you...
Maybe God Damn American Policies would work better for you? Or God Damn the U.S. Bombs that rain down on the people of the world? Why are you so proud of what your country does?
excerpts from the book
Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000

p8
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.

p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors ."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a ClA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.
------------------------------------------------------
Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene.
Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War..
--------------
"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowback. Empire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Cos...



The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition

Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed.

And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.
"America will have a continuing interest and presence in Central Asia of a kind that we could not have dreamed of before," US Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in February 2002. Later that year, the US Defense Department announced: "The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations then it has been throughout history."
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_...
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Circling the wagons
Apparently, some folks (even the supposedly progessive people on DU) believe that white people can criticize this country however, whenever and in whatever language they please, but when a black person does it, these same people circle the wagons, pull together and take great offense at the "hateful," "racist," and "unpatriotic" "attacks" by these horrible, dangerous black people.

Sort of like how I can beat up on my little brother all I want, but the kid down the street had better never even look at him funny. To some people, white folks are the "family," even when they disagree, and black folks are the kids down the street, the "outsiders," who we let move into the neighborhood but can never really be a part of the "family" - and while everyone in the family is free to badmouth other members of the family however they choose, the "outsiders" better not even THINK about saying anything bad about anyone in the family.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. Running around the Internet..
I notice that the 'outrage' is limited to a small percentage, and the comments made are almost carbon copies of each other. I think that 'family' is not the large clan it used to be. We are all products of our environment and it must be difficult to realize that the way you see the world is no longer the way the world is. The "outrage' by these folks that follows every manufactured scandal, lights up the ugliness that lies beneath, and burns so bright that what remains are ashes from another time. I worry about the dis-ease that is apparent in all of our lives today and how that may be tapped into to further divide us. But so far, I am really proud that so many of the people of this country are smart enough, and are coming to understand more every day where the source of our problems lie. The fear/hope, love/hate dichotomy is a difficult one to straddle, but the fact that the love/hope side of it is present at all is encouraging.
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
91. Uh, it is. Click on the TUCC website, then click "about us"
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 09:27 AM by x-g.o.p.er
It says:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community."

Now, what if there was a church that John Edwards or Hillary Cliton had attended with a mission ststement that read:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly White and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the White religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are a European people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the Civil War, the days of Reconstruction, and the long night of Affirmative Action. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a White worship service and ministries which address the White Community.

The bottom paragraph is inherently racist and hate speech, but the top isn't?

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #91
105. I think that is the Presbyterian Church
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #91
111. I a Synagogue web site said that the congregation "unabashedly supported Israel"
Would we be attacking it?
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #111
120. I heard about an orthodox rabbi who got too political.
He told his congregation in California to vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The person that told me this, went to the rabbi and said that he had to leave the congregation because he could not in good conscience vote for the son of a Nazi.

So he left.
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theredpen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Well, that answer has nothing whatsoever to do with my question
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 07:06 PM by theredpen
But... um, thanks for the fake anecdote. I can't imagine an observant Jew who hasn't read Deuteronomy.

"Parents shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their parents; only for their own crimes may persons be put to death."

This means that you are not to hold children responsible for the transgressions of their parents.

... or Ezekiel

"The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own."

Contradicting a major Prophet? Oy!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
93. Wright's sermons are "hate speech"
...when he inserts hate speech into them.
Good thing Obama had his earmuffs on for the last 20 years of Sundays...
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. What specifically did he say that qualifies as "hate speech?" nt
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright

"After Wright's retirement, copies of his sermons were offered for sale. News organizations like ABC News bought them and searched them for more controversial material. The ABC News Blotter website, edited by reporter Brian Ross, found "repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans." In addition to providing his comments after 9/11 that had been previously publicized, the site also quoted Wright as saying "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people" <16> Another controversial comment discovered at this time was Wright's reference to AIDS conspiracy theories: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied." <17>"
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Slagathor Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
102. Yes, actually, they ARE hate speech
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 10:11 AM by Slagathor
if I claimed that Jews engineered HIV to kill pure Aryan babies, I'd be accused of hate speech right away.

PS once again religion shows its utter distain for reason, science and logic.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #102
104. I think that all oppressed
people, and the mass psychology that lies within has the same roots. I see a lot of correlation between the language used to incite Anti-Semitism and that used to incite racism. Picking and choosing words from a sermon that can incite the most seems very effective. It is a good thing that we now have so much information available to us. We can actually read the words as they appear on the page, rather than rely on someone else's interpretation of a particular phrase. Those that strike the match, trying desperately to spark the fire that will fan the flames of racism are all wet.
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Slagathor Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. I support Obama myself
strongly support him. Hysterically support him.

But come on. This pastor is a divisive, racist asshole.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. I strongly disagree...
Reverend Wright is a pastor of a church in a community. He speaks of the life he has known. I think he was spot on, about how our foreign policy has effected the people of the world, and what that means for our future. Perhaps it would have been better if he had put it this way:

Blowback
excerpted from the book
Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Blo...

p8
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.

p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors that is, terrorists from one country attacking in another."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a CIA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.
------------------------------------------
Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene. Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War...
------------------------
"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowback. Empire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.


The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_...

Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed

And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.
"America will have a continuing interest and presence in Central Asia of a kind that we could not have dreamed of before," US Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in February 2002. Later that year, the US Defense Department announced: "The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations then it has been throughout history."


A Brief History of U.S. Interventions: 1945 to the Present
by William Blum
Z magazine , June 1999
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions...
The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations in this period.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #102
114. Yeah, our government never does things like that.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

Oh b-b-b-but, the gov't didn't infect those men with syphillis! They simply refused to treat them so that they could study them like lab rats. Just anticipating your argument.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #102
127. The Tuskeegee Study is the context of that remark.
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madisongrace Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
122. America is not ready to face the truth of the racial divide,
much less give up the power to the other "side".
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
123. He is only ranting and raveing just to make money.
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 09:09 PM by MATTMAN
In fact Wright sells his sermons. If Wright does not display a certain amount of zeal in his sermons it will be boring. Which can lead one to deduce that he is less about cause and more about money.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. Nice try, but that's not true.
Wright DOES NOT sell his tapes. The church sells tapes of Wright's sermons at cost to help pay the church's expenses. This is not uncommon - in fact, many, many black churches do exactly the same thing - including Ebenezer Baptist Church (Dr. King's old church) and Abyssinian Baptist Church, whose pastor endorsed Hillary Clinton.

You obviously don't know anything about black churches - otherwise, you would not make such a spurious claim that Wright "spices up" his sermons so that they will be interesting enough to sell the tapes thereof. If you knew anything about the black church tradition, you would know that it is very important to have charismatic, exciting, inspirational pastors, not so that they can sell tapes, but so that they can draw and keep parishoners who will come week after week to hear God's word. It's no different, in fact, than any other church, most of whom want to keep their services engaging and interesting to attract churchgoers.

So, notwithstanding your mischaracterization of Wright's sermons and your slander about who gets the money from the tapes, there's no there, there.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. It is laughable to think of Wrights sermon's as "gods word."
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 09:12 AM by MATTMAN
His sermons are not sold on tapes but DVDs. It does not matter what race the pastor or the congregation is. The preacher will always try to indoctrinate the congregation with his agenda. The bible says there are a lot of false prophets out there. All you need to do is an open mind.
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #126
130. Nice try at changing the subject.
Notwithstanding your apparent assumption that the thousands of people who attend Wright's church - and by implication, millions of others who attend similar churches - are stupid sheep because they don't see things the way you do, your blanket condemnation of preachers as false prophets is as obnoxious as your previous post falsely accusing Wright of selling his sermons for personal profit.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
128. Thanks for posting, Effie.
Very touching, and mildly enraging at the same time.
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BigDDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
129. Effie, serious question - do you believe this?
"Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was ridin' dirty"
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #129
131. I don't have to believe everything that someone else says in order to believe that they have a right
to their point of view.
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BigDDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Man, it's impossible to get a straight answer from the
BO crowd today...
Do you believe that statement?

I didn't ask about his right to say it.

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. He's right to a degree and I don't agree with ALL of what he's said but that doesn't
...make his sermon hate speach
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EffieBlack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #132
134. First of all, I am not part of the "BO crowd"
I support both candidates.

Frankly, I don't know what the statement you are asking me about means or in what context it was said, so I can't tell you whether I "believe" in it or not.

What was the full quote?
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