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There's a significant difference between the "racism" of African Americans

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:32 AM
Original message
There's a significant difference between the "racism" of African Americans
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 04:48 AM by cali
and the racism of whites. The former is a creation of oppression. The latter is born of thinking that black people are inferior to point of not even being human. Did you get that? Not even thought of as human. YOU fucking try that on for size and see if you don't feel some resentment. I'm not excusing black racism. I'm explaining it's genesis. Does that mitigate it for me? Yes, but I'm not asking that it do so for you. And there are more differences: Racism against blacks by whites was institutionalized and had devastating results. Black racism against whites? It's societal impact in this country has been non-existent.

This isn't a post about Barack Obama or Jeremiah Wright or the election at all. It's a response to the cluelessness or disingenuity of those here who have made hundreds of comments that boil down to: "How dare some black people hate white America". Well, if you can't see why some black people have a deep resentment, suspicion and even hate of white America, you're a fool. Sorry, just a fool. And that resentment isn't held by only uneducated people.

Last year on some NPR program, I heard a fascinating extended story about a black Ivy League educated attorney who took a job as a waiter at the Greenwich Country Club as an experiment. What he overheard and how he was treated by these educated members, was incredibly telling and repugnant.

I'm sick of hearing that sexism is acceptable but racism isn't. Racism is fucking rampant in our society. Personally, as a white woman, I think racism is worse that sexism, and I have no use for sexism. How many women are there in the U.S, Senate? How many blacks? I'm not sure off hand how many women there are- I think it's something like 16, but I damn well know the answer to how many black Senators there are: One.

So this is my disjointed little ramble about race and what I'm seeing on DU. And yeah, anyone piously saying shit about black racism being as bad as white racism is spewing racist sentiments.
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. So are you saying
racism is justified based on it origins and it is worse than sexism because we have 16 whole females in the Senate and only 1 Black? Just want to get it straight
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No. I clearly didn't say that.
I said that for me the genesis of racism makes the resentment, anger and even hate, understandable. I used the Senate as one example of racism being more pervasive than sexism. I did say that racism is a worse problem than sexism. example. I realize that white women make up a majority of this country and blacks are a minority, but that doesn't explain the disparity in and of itself. Blacks are underrepresented in many facets of our society from professional degree programs to board rooms. They're overrepresented in prisons and other less stellar places.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Has Hillary ever been called the "n" word? Has a white woman ever been lynched?
A black woman suffers both racism and sexism. Now which is worse?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. white women have been called things that are as bad as
nigger, and white women have been "lynched". Think the Salem witch trials. And yes, obviousl women who are black, suffer even worse oppression than women who are white.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. You know what I meant. You cannot twist this to compare
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 05:08 AM by ProSense
slavery, segregation and the killing of blacks to the Salem witch trials. That's absurd!

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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't think what Wright says is racist.
I don't believe that criticizing white oppression is racist on any level. White oppression exists. Perhaps that oppression is more subtle than it was just 40 years ago but it white oppression still exists.

As for the Farrakhan bit with the reverend, so fucking what? I've known plenty of preachers in my day and they were as cordial and inviting to the bad people as they were the good ones. You can't save a soul if you're never around the person housing it. Wright went on trip with Farrakhan over 20 years ago and gave him some "world's best awesome guy" award in his church magazine. Hell, Hillary and Barack have a closer relationship than Jeremiah does with Louis.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I agree with you about Wright
Nothing I've heard him say, rises to the level of racism, and that's one reason that racism is in quotes in the title of my OP. But Farrakhan, he really is a piece of crap, and lionizing him does reflect badly on Wright- though not on Obama. I want to add that though not racist, some of the shit spewed by Wright from the pulpit about Hillary and Bill was truly ugly and hateful.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. So does Maya Angelou, who spoke at the Million Man March. She doesn't denounce him
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 05:09 AM by ProSense
Martin Luther King, Jr. had a lot of religious leaders who marched with him. Is that a difference between those times and these? Do you believe we have the type of religious leaders that we need today?

Maya Angelou: It is of particular interest to see the men who have been important in our struggle; that is, when one looks at Dr. King, a preacher; and Andrew Young, a preacher; and Jesse Jackson, a preacher; and Malcolm X, a preacher; or Louis Farrakhan, a preacher, to see that as a people we tend to be religious, whether we are following Buddha, or in some cases are black Jews or Muslims or Christians or Shintoists for that matter. Martin Luther King, Jr. always said human beings are more alike than we are unalike.

You mentioned Louis Farrakhan. He has been a very strong advocate of individual responsibility, but he has been a very controversial figure as well. How do you interpret his role?

Maya Angelou: Mr. Farrakhan has offended a lot of people. I understand that. But I am not his apologist, nor the person to interpret him. I think he is very good at interpreting himself. I think that we talk about being Americans and we take it awfully lightly. We forget because probably none of us has lived in another country where, if you said something that the government didn't agree with, you could be shot at dawn. We take being American for granted. Since Louis Farrakhan is an American, he has the right to say what he thinks to be true. What I would encourage young men and women to do is find that speaker who really speaks to your heart. Try to find two or three who speak to your needs and whose melody you can hum, and listen to that speaker. I do believe that people are controversial as long as their statements shake and maybe question the status quo. Martin Luther King, Jr. was controversial, you must know that. And certainly Malcolm X remained, until he died, a controversial figure. Nobody is going to be all things to all people. You must know that going in.

link


What does Hillary say to that?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Will Hillary reject Maya Angelou for not denouncing Farrakhan? n/t
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Frankly, I'm just fucking exhausted with people who make assumptions
about others on the basis of race. I'm tired of people hypocritically saying you can't judge Obama by association with Wright (which is true) then going off about "white people." And I'm tired of being told I'm priveleged. For white people who grew up with shit and struggle everyday, it's pretty annoying to read that. Yeah, it's true on a societal level. But when it's applied to all white individuals, it's really fucking ponderous. I'm tired of being told I can't know how it is in another person's shoes when I've been wearing the same beaten up pair for 13 years. I don't know your life, you don't know mine, so why is anyone assuming all this shit about everyone else?

I recognise all of what you're saying, I do, all the history, all of it. But I'm tired of this racial shit. It's wrong. It needs to stop.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. The difference one comes from pain another comes from oppression.The same applys in sexism...
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 05:02 AM by cooolandrew
in sexism one sides anger is from pain and suffering the other sides anger is the oppression from men.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. A few thoughts I have.
I have respect for you, even in our disagreements, and this is going to be one of them, though not where we typically disagree. :)

While I understand what you are saying, at least I think I do, there is no African-American "racism" against whites. The sociological concept of racism is based on power, of which African-Americans do not have in our country. Is there discrimination against whites by black folk? Oh yes! However, it is no where near the level of discrimination of whites against blacks, which I think we both agree. There is African-American racism, but is directed at other AAs or other ethnic minorities.

I will also disagree with you that racism is worse than sexism. Though it really shouldn't come down to a "pissing contest" as to who has it worse, I believe sexism is much worse and much more prevalent in the US and the world and is more acceptable. You bring an interesting statistic to your conclusion, 16 female senators and one African-American. AAs make up around 13% of the US population, whereas women make up almost 53% of the US population. From those numbers, it is easy to see both are underrepresented, but women are far more underrepresented.

Racism is a very real problem in the US. It is a very real problem with posters. However, sexism is more excusable and more often, IMHO, allowed to be exhibited without ramifications. I will say: "...anyone piously saying shit about black racism being as bad as white racism... doesn't know what they are talking about!
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm so feelin' the love here. It makes me want to vote for Obama! (not)
I'm an Obama supporter, but this post about racism really belongs in the GD forum and not here. It has nothing to do with the primaries. But besides that, there is so much misinformation in your post that I can't even begin to list the inaccuracies.

For starters, though: I think Obama's response clarified one thing that I think is true. The old man Wright has feelings based on life experiences of long ago. Many of the realities of the black experience of the 1950s no longer exist. A black child born today has the same opportunities in this country as a white child or a latino child or an asian child. They are all provided schooling, food, some sort of basic medical care (because of the SCHIP program, I believe). There are differences in schooling quality because of economic status, but not because of ethnicity or race. Additionally, there are special programs for minorities that are unavailable for whites. (I'm not saying those should not exist. I'm just pointing that out.)

There is no more reason these days for young Af. Americans to sing "God Damn America" than for young whites or latinos or asians. Do bigots still exist? Yes...of all races. But the numbers of white bigots are dwindling. And besides, you simply aren't going to get everyone to like you all the time. Most people feel discrimination or dislike for some reason, at some time, whether it's for one's age or weight or appearance or gender or, yes, race.

Racism on the part of blacks I don't believe is caused by current situations of rampant white racism. I'm white. I'm privy to private conversations among whites. I live in TX but am from the deep south. I hear some things, yes. But not what you'd think. It's a more subtle hesitancy, and usually more along the lines of noticing the favored treatment that blacks get in the workplace because of the employer being afraid of being sued. Things like that.

I feel no guilt. I have done nothing racist. I have caused no black person any pain or cost him/her any job. I have done nothing whatsoever to cause anyone to label me a "rich white person" who is the cause of black people's problems. That is, simply, racist talk not based in reality. Like the KKK talk, which I ALSO didn't buy into. I know racist talk when I hear it. And it came from Wright's mouth.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Wright said nothing racist. Who is the cause of racism against blacks? n/t
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yes, he did. He said, "rich, white people" are the cause of the blacks' problems.
That is blatantly racist. He didn't say some specific people are responsible, or even some specific rich people are responsible, or even that some specific white people are responsible. Apparently all rich, white people are the cause of some other people's problems, and that is the reason for "God Damn America." Because a lot of white people live in America, is the implication.

There is no justification for racism. It is racist to say that "rich, white people" are the cause of his own racism. That is blatantly racist on its face. The preacher apparently experienced some racism on his end by SOME people, SOME of whom no doubt had money. But it is ALSO true that SOME white people did NOTHING to him or did not exhibit racism against blacks. And SOME rich people didn't, either. And SOME of the racist whites he no doubt encountered were POOR, not rich.

One of the hallmarks of racism is blaming something on an entire group of people based on the color of the group's skin. There is no justification for it. Even if the speaker experienced some racism decades ago.

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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. disagreed...
and DU is not able to absorb the nuance twixt the tween, it's just not setup that way...that's just the way it is deal with it or don't; many here are simply not interested in "some NPR program" you heard once upon a time. This is America 2008...welcome to it zippity doo-dah
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
17. characterization unfair, statistics bad - Sexism is a real, significant prob.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:24 AM by Texas Hill Country
There are about 39 million african americans in this country and there are currently 48 AA members of Congress IIRC...

That means that there is one african american congresspersons for every 812,500 african americans

There are about 160,000,0000 women and 74 female congresspeople. That means there is 1 female congressperson for every 2,162,162 women....

As a percentage of the population, there are African Americans have a 261% better rate of representation than do women....


Also, remember, much like African Americans, women were not and are still not treated equally... AND even got the vote AFTER African Americans.

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