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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:06 AM
Original message
Clinton supporters living in pretend world.
In Pretend World:

- Obama's outspoken pastor is a major scandal;

- Hillary's hidden tax returns, White House records, Senate earmark records and library donor records are no big deal;

- Hillary was telling the truth when she said she "hadn't had time" to get those records to the public;

- 80% of the superdelegates will flock to Clinton at the convention because Clinton is "more electable," despite having less votes and less delegates at the time of the convention;

- The elections in MI andf FL were fair and true elections, which Hillary really kicked ass in;

- Hillary showed good judgment voting for the IWR, it was just those nasty republicans who tricked her;

- THE LIST GOES ON AND ON!

I think I will check back in at GDP after Obama is nominated, if this asylum is still open.












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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. .................
:hug:
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Tax returns, earmarks, donor records. Very much old news. Wright? Very much new.
Tax returns, etc? Just reminds people the the Clintons love money.
God Damn America? Gives people the nasty surprise that Obama hates America.
Now, I wonder which one is more of a problem? Hmmmm? :think: Hmmmm?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. God Damn idiot Americans that voted for the war.
this is flesh and blood and ripping family members apart. real nasty stuff sinews asunder in a pile of hamburger meat pile, screaming in pain in a puddle of wtf am I doing here, US soldiers and a million+ Iraqi's.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Hillary is enjoying the comforts - the extreme comforts of living very well with bodily parts intact, as will her kid, her kid will never have to face this.

If you want to equate what Wright did with his wordiness to this travesty in Iraq, come up to the plate and acknowledge what Hillary did with her words or lack of.

She condoned it.

how many people did Wright kill?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. More than just "God Damn America." His role model also seems to hate whites....
you know...all those people that he is hoping will vote for Obama.

Now who would you prefer to vote for? Someone who might be a decent Prez, who likes your kind, but who voted for the Iraq War and probably has some income source she's trying to hide? Or someone who might be a better Prez in some ways, who was against the war from the start, had an income source he was trying to hide (Rezko), but who reveres and considers as role models and advisors people who actively HATE you?

The latter is PERSONAL and trumps everything else. It is simply impossible to believe that someone who hangs with people who hate you will have YOUR interests at heart when he's leading the country.

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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Tell me...
why did you actively HATE Obama before Wright showed up? And why did your qualified statement (seems to hate) turn into a solid one (actively HATES you)? This is race-baiting and fear-mongering. The words "your kind" set my teeth on edge.

I'm white, and feel threatened by you, not Wright.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm an Obama supporter. I do not now, and have never, hated him.
If the words, "rich, white people causing our people" their troubles, and "God Damn America" don't mean anything to you, then you are unlike the mainstream voter.

Believe me when I say....mainstream America is going to see this video and hear about how close Obama is to him, and think twice or thrice about voting for him. Already the Dems are polling barely ahead of McCain. It won't take much to lose the GE.

I don't care one bit about Wright, the hatemonger. I only care about Obama and his 20 year close relationship with him, and his continuing close relationship with him, and Wright's affiliation with the campaign. Not many people would go to a church to hear this hatemonger speak for 17 years and not leave with disgust. But Obama sat there Sunday after Sunday, year after year, and listened. I can only surmise that Obama heard this garbage and agreed with much of it. Now, maybe he can convince me and others he didn't/doesn't. We'll see.

No one....no one...is going to vote for someone who has a close relationship with a hatemonger, which is what Wright is, according to the video I saw.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. Wright is not a hatemonger
you just have no comprehension or critical thinking skills.

It's just another election year where the "center" trusses up the left for ritual sacrifice to placate the right's sense of political correctness, and Hillary supporters are only too happy to do the GOP's dirtywork for them.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. That's a loser debate tactic...attack the speaker when you can't argue facts.
I saw the video with my eyes, heard him speak with my own ears. There was no pundit interpreting it for me. The Clinton crowd wasn't standing behind the guy, egging him on. It was all pure Wright.

I know racism when I hear it. And THAT was racism. Loud, hateful racism. He worked himself up into quite a tizzy over all those "rich, white people" who are the cause of all the Af. Americans' problems, according to him. Culminating in a "GOD DAMN AMERICA."

Even Sharpton doesn't sink that low.

Then the guy turns around and asks white people to vote for his friend? Yeah, sure. I guess he figures on a guilt trip or something. I have done nothing to feel guilty about.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. As a white person, let me just say
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 11:39 AM by Gonnabuymeagun
white America needs to wake the fuck up. It seems that includes you.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
42. There are others who've spoken up who attended Trintiy and said those
sermons were out of the ordinary, and wasn't anything like they'd heard from Wright in the past.
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
48. Don't take it out of context.
The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law, and then wants us to sing, "God Bless America." No, no no, God damn America! That's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human.

We bombed Nagasaki and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and Black South Africans and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas has now been brought back into our own front yards."

Who cares about what a poor black man has to face every day in a country and a culture controlled by rich white people... Jesus was a poor black man who lived in a country and who lived in a culture that was controlled by rich white people. The Romans were rich. The Romans were Italian, which means they were European, which means they were white. And the Romans ran everything in Jesus' country. It just came to me in the past few weeks y'all, why so many folks are hating on Barack Obama. He doesn't fit the mold. He ain't white. He ain't rich. And he ain't privileged. Hillary fits the mold. Europeans fit the mold. Guiliani fits the mold. Rich white men fit the mold. Hillary never had a cab whiz past her and not pick her up because her skin was the wrong color. Hillary never had to worry about being pulled over in her car as a black man driving in the wrong... I am sick of Negroes who just do not get it. Hillary was not a black boy raised in a single parent home. Barack was. Barack knows what it means to be a black man living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people. Hillary has never known that. Hillary ain't never been called a nigger. Hillary has never had her people defined as non-persons. Hillary ain't had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than that C student sitting in the White House. Oh I am so glad that I've got a God who knows what it is to be a poor black man in a country and a culture that is controlled by and run by rich white people. He taught me, Jesus did, how to love my enemies. Jesus taught me how to love the hell out of my enemies, and not be reduced to their level of hatred, bigotry and small-mindedness. Hillary ain't never had her own people say she wasn't white enough. Jesus had his own people siding with the enemy. That's why I love Jesus, y'all. He never let their hatred dampen his hope."


I don't see anything in these quotes that I disagree with. But you're right that many people (yourself included) will hear the small clips, hear the unfamiliar bombastic style, and be afraid... very afraid. They will call Wright a hatemonger over & over. They will perpetuate exactly what the REAL hatemongers & race-baiters & fearmongers want them to spread. Don't be reduced to their level of hatred, bigotry and small-mindedness. Don't let your fear dampen your hope.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Clintons Bought and paid for...old news. I agree.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. How hard is it though, to release one's tax returns for the last six years?
I mean, haven't they already been filed with the IRS? They're just sitting in a drawer somewhere, so why not release them, if there's nothing wrong with them?

Considering that there is virtually no work involved other than probably an hour or two of photocopying/scanning and mailing for a campaign intern or something, what's the holdup?
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. She will never release her tax records since she knows she won't win the nomination. n/t
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. That is the smartest take on that I've heard yet.
After all, why bother?
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
38. Where's she going to find the time? Hillary's too busy copying the Rove playbook.
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 09:26 AM by InAbLuEsTaTe
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. How about a civil pact where if one candidate is not called names in the OP
replies will not call names either? More of a playground rule...

BTW, I would have voted for Edwards, myself. One of the first victims of all this crap we are in.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I suppose you have a point. (In fact I know you do.)
I'm just so damn disgusted...no one to really vote FOR, just someone to vote AGAINST.

OTOH, the Op wasn't being very civil to start with.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Agreed about the OP, but technically no name calling....
I am not to the point of having no one to vote for...I think we have two of the best candidates I have seen in my lifetime, and two of the toughest campaign organizations.

My only worry is the usual...the party tearing itself apart, and all hopes and strengths and history-making possibilities swept up in the wreckage.
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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. WTF??
Obamabozo? What is that, second grade? Maybe third?

I don't even know you, but I have to believe you're better than that.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oh look its insane inmates # 1 , # 2 and #3
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:38 AM by Moochy
they showed up to drool in your thread and prove your point.

hey #5, #9 and #12 too!
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. There is a good reason I can't see those posts, lol.
:evilgrin:
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. You know, I like Tabasco...but only on scrambled eggs and pizza
otherwise, the stuff is kind of watered-down and boring....

much like the OP
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. yup. i guess supporting hillary requires suspending your abilty to reason
its really wierd
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. A psychologist would say they "Are lying to themselves".

It's a similar phenomenon to the Republicans who think Bush always tells the truth and makes good decisions. Never thought it would be so powerful in the Democratic party though I think it really is only a handful of posters. The vast majority of Hillary supporters are good people who just are not paying close enough attention.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
9. HAY GUYZ LOOK OVER THAR AT WUT HILLARY'S DOING!
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 02:18 AM by Tarc
Misdirect, distract, rinse, repeat.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. She losing, that's a fact! n/t
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
52. And you guys do it all the time too. Quit your weeping.
Unless you'll have the guts to call it out from your side as well. Both sides do it all the fucking time. They bring up Ferraro you guys bring up Wright. You bring up Wright, they bring up the Fellowship. It's endless, and morons like you who see it from only one side are a joke.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
12. Yah I'm going to pretend
that intelligent people in this country will want to win this election without a bush league trainee.
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Taxmyth Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
14. If the Federal Law specifically allows you to keep that information private
then would you turn over your tax returns? I certainly would not. They're rich. Bill did a good job and should enjoy tens of millions of dollars. I don't care where it comes from as long as it was a legal investment. Tens of millions of dollars. Keeryst, Deloitte and Touche gave Bear Stearns a clean bill of health 13 months ago, what kind of bonuses do you think their executives get? All he's got to do is be Bill and people will pay him to show up, the guy is better than a rock star. Take your time Bill, don't show 'em until you have to.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Hillary should issue a press release saying she has no plans to release them. n/t
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. That would require telling the truth. Never going to happen.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. Because if you had nothing to hide, you would not invoke that federal law...
...to protect yourself. And btw, that is a QUALIFIED and not an ABSOLUTE privilege.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
15. About once a week Obama does the round of sympathetic talking heads
and has to explain why there is more shit that just got found out. When does it stop?
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flor de jasmim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Probably never, but hopefully with the election. That said,...
I'm also waiting for those tax records, First Lady papers, clarification of campaign donors, earmarks... let's stop focusing on these "guilt-by-association" issues and get to what's important:

EITHER DECLARE OBAMA the winner of the primary (since Hillary can only get the nomination now by hook or by crook), or PUT THE RECORDS ON THE TABLE and let us examine them.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
21. Sounds a reasonable idea.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
22. Neat-o!!
:silly:
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'll answer seriously for the heck of it
In Pretend World:

- Obama's outspoken pastor is a major scandal;
* In my real world - Yes, it's huge, and I'm not sure he can overcome this

- Hillary's hidden tax returns, White House records, Senate earmark records and library donor records are no big deal;
* It's a small deal, unless real dirt is hiding there. For the record, I think she could release it, but I've never seen tax returns being released a big election issue

- Hillary was telling the truth when she said she "hadn't had time" to get those records to the public;
* I don't think she's rushing, but in the end they'll be released

- 80% of the superdelegates will flock to Clinton at the convention because Clinton is "more electable," despite having less votes and less delegates at the time of the convention;
* if she wins the popular vote and PA she has a shot

- The elections in MI and FL were fair and true elections, which Hillary really kicked ass in;
* no, especially in MI, although the latest from there is that BO purposely didn't put his name there because he knew he would lose. FL is another story, where BO actually ran a commercial there. I think both should revote. I disagree with HRC that as is MI can count.

- Hillary showed good judgment voting for the IWR, it was just those nasty republicans who tricked her;
* She made the Kerry calculation, which turned out wrong. I've seen little from BO to think that his votes aren't very very political as well.

And I think she'd be the better President in a time when we're so far up the creek we need a Lincoln / FDR clone. BO is a crapshoot I'm not willing to take.

If this seems insane to you, I suppose we live in different worlds.


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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. One point by point deserves another
In Pretend World:

- Obama's outspoken pastor is a major scandal;
* In my real world - Yes, it's huge, and I'm not sure he can overcome this
%%%I'm sorry, I don't recall anyone's pastor ever being on the ballot anywhere. And the "he can't recover from this" is just wishful thinking on your part.

- Hillary's hidden tax returns, White House records, Senate earmark records and library donor records are no big deal;
* It's a small deal, unless real dirt is hiding there. For the record, I think she could release it, but I've never seen tax returns being released a big election issue
%%%If they shed light on the $5 million dollar "loan" she made to her campaign, THAT would be no small deal. But Shady McCain gets to cut corners and renounce public financing after using the terms for collateral for his loan, so maybe Hillary can do it too, right?

- Hillary was telling the truth when she said she "hadn't had time" to get those records to the public;
* I don't think she's rushing, but in the end they'll be released
%%%That and 50 cents will buy you a newspaper on any day but Sunday. She's playing for the kill shot in the meantime.

- 80% of the superdelegates will flock to Clinton at the convention because Clinton is "more electable," despite having less votes and less delegates at the time of the convention;
* if she wins the popular vote and PA she has a shot
%%%Ah yes, Ed Rendell and the old "only four states really matter, and mine is one, of course" strategy. So what do you say to the 30 (That's 60% of the union, and we're not done yet) states Obama has carried? What do you say that makes them accept Hillary in the fall? "She won the popular vote, so shut up and vote for her?" Sorry, that won't cut it for me.

- The elections in MI and FL were fair and true elections, which Hillary really kicked ass in;
* no, especially in MI, although the latest from there is that BO purposely didn't put his name there because he knew he would lose. FL is another story, where BO actually ran a commercial there. I think both should revote. I disagree with HRC that as is MI can count.
%%%We agree on something, but alas, Hillary is showing an utter disregard for anything except winning. Or as she said: "winning. winning. winning. winning." Her own personal mantra, I'm afraid.

- Hillary showed good judgment voting for the IWR, it was just those nasty republicans who tricked her;
* She made the Kerry calculation, which turned out wrong. I've seen little from BO to think that his votes aren't very very political as well.
%%%This wasn't a time for calculation, it was a time to lead. And she fell into Bush's line instead. So give her a mulligan if you want, but an awful lot of families and communities have been hurt by this war.

And I think she'd be the better President in a time when we're so far up the creek we need a Lincoln / FDR clone. BO is a crapshoot I'm not willing to take.
%%%Your crystal ball works better than mine. The idea of Hillary Clinton as some clone of the greatest presidents ever seems farfetched to me.

If this seems insane to you, I suppose we live in different worlds.
%%%Insane is not a word to toss around lightly. People used to be able to disagree once upon a time. And I think Obama's cause brooks more disagreement and discussion than Clinton's does.
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usrbs Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. next round
Obama's been in that church for 20 years, Wright was his spiritual adviser, and was on his campaign. There's no way he can disassociate from him.

I'm not goingt into the tax returns. They're not a big issue for me. I wouldn't particularly care if BO hadn't released his.

The super delegates have the right to use whatever criteria they want to make their decision. Those are the rules, so don't complain about them. Leading in the popular vote and a perceived electibility problem are legitimate decision factors. So is the disillusionment of AA and young voters on the other side. (But the open threat of violence isn't).

Again, nothing that BO has done leads me to believe he's that much superior to HRC on the issues, including ending the war.

I don't think HRC is great, only that we need greatness. Since the ones I thought had greatness are not running, I'm going to settle for experience and proven competence. BO is unproven.

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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. You forgot....
...REZKO!

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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Tell us about Rezko.
You know the immigrant sounding name, and you've fallen for the Fox News implications about how bad he is, but can you actually explain what Rezko did and how this tarnishes Obama?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
36. Lmao. You're not kidding. Drama queen hysterics that defy reality n/t
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
41. Obama's Pastor IS a big deal....sorry for those that don't realize it.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
43. LOL
:thumbsup:
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
44. I truly believe Clinton supporters are closet McCain supporters.
They'll do everything in their power to see a Republican get elected.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. And they like Rush and Faux news.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'm not a Clinton supporter,
and I view Obama's outspoken pastor as a major scandal.

The rest you can have; Clinton is just as unacceptable as Obama. It isn't only Clinton supporters that see a problem with Obama's cozy relationship with religious bigots and nutjobs as a problem, though, so it shouldn't be framed that way.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. you left out his cozy relationship with a crook named
Rezko.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. That, too, of course.
:hi:
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
50. It's a happy happy place for them.
Until Clinton entrenches lobbyists even more firmly in our government, attacks Iran and any other country beginning with the letter "I" and sends everyone's job but hers overseas.

I think they should come live in the reality-based world where President Obama is bringing this country back from ruin!
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