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I Won't Support The Democratic Party If It Overturns The Will of the People

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:57 PM
Original message
I Won't Support The Democratic Party If It Overturns The Will of the People
You can tombstone me from DU forever, but if one candidate has the lead in delegates and the lead in the popular vote, then that candidate should get the nomination, plain and simple. Primary elections are not about a few big states. It's about the overall will of the people, and that is one principle far more important than party or DU loyalty.

On election night in 2000, I followed the results on Bartcop. I watched his blog when he screamed "FIXED", after they switch the results in Florida. I knew then that we were heading for a disaster because the powers that be "chose" our president for us. Shortly thereafter, in 2001, I became a member of DU after Bartcop recommended the site on his blog, and I have been posting here ever since with over 8,000 posts.

I'll be damned if I'm going to support a political party or a weblog that denies the will of its people. I'll be damned if I will support a party whose elites think they know better than us. Why even have the pretense of a Democracy? We'll just let a room full of elites decide our leaders for us.

If you want the nomination, get the most delegates and the most votes or just shut up and go away.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-14-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. i give a shit
oh, wait, no i don't
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Ditto.
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BringBigDogBack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. what a peice of garbage.
you know what they say, if you don't have anything nice to say, you must be a fucking Hillary powergrab supporter.
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. my point is not about the opinion of how the dems nominating process should run
but about all the individuals who think declaring personally "I'll hold my breath til I turn blue" is pertinent. I don't give a rats ass what someone is/is not going to do with their one solitary vote. posting a declaration as if it were something that thousand, nay millions, were waiting with baited breath to hear is hubris, and does nothing to further discussion. If someone expresses an opinion and solicits comment, then a discussion can ensue. When someone declares themselves close-minded and goes off to stand in a corner, then I don't give a shit and the thread is a waste of bandwidth

I just wasted more bandwidth responding to you, since your post was nothing but to declare that you know what I do/do not support, which is really "a piece of garbage." Read my sig line.

Oh, by the way, congratulations to team Obama for the rapid response yesterday. Truly impressive.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. The will of thepeople had better be honored, I agree.
:toast: Anything less, and I will wonder also.
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. No one would expect you to!!
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree the candidate who gets the most popular votes should get the nomination.
Maybe I'm panicing tonight and shouldn't be, but this hoopla about Pastor Wright has be very worried. There are still quite a few primaries to go, and if this thing takes hold in the general public, I'm afraid Obama might not be able to weather the storm.

I honestly hope I'm wrong and panicing too much, but this is some really damaging stuff. We have to try to look at it froma Countrywide majority of the public, and he's sure not winning any votes tonight!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Don't sweat it too much.
Take a look at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It will make you feel better.

-Laelth
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. Don't worry, Hillary's losing well enough on her own
she's losing delegates, she's losing states, she's losing voters, she's losing in fundraising
and most of all she's losing focus. It's a mad scramble over there in Hillaryland
and they are stuck in the dirty drainpipe of their own kitchen sink. Just look around.
Blub blub blub. It's sad to see them go so disgracefully.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. I agree regarding the will of the people bit
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:09 AM by mac2
but what about the return of our founding document...the Constitution? On day one...I want the President to negate the Patriot Acts, etc. Negate all signing statements made by Bush too. Get out of NAFTA, CAFTA, and stop the Americas Union.

I've voted since I was 18 years old. I am a senior now. I voted in the primaries. But now I'm thinkig...no way will I vote for any Democratic party candidate if they can't promise that.

They swear an oath of office to protect and defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic (our present Congress and President).

They promised us for the last eight years...yet it remains as ever. They aren't following the "will of the people" at least not those who are not billionaires. The few get to make all the decisions for their own self interest and pockets.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
The Party Elites Can Stuff It, and not the ballot box.

:kick:
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. You gotta respect the rules.
If we need to change them for next time, fine. But the rules are set and we need to stick to them. If the supers decide to all go to Clinton, well, it's within the rules.
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DemzRock Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Sad but true. Reminder for Obama Newbies: This isn't a Democracy. n/t
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. Again, If It's Not A Democracy, Then Why Support It?
Why not just let a handfull of political big wigs pick your nominee for you? Also, why not let them pick you president as well?

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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. The rules stink so do the "decision makers" who made up this
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 12:12 AM by mac2
primary crisis in Florida and Michigan.

This time they stole the vote before the election.
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. then get active and help change them before 2012.
This is the price we pay for inaction.

It's our own damn fault.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. How many years should we demand "change" and get
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 07:25 AM by mac2
none? I'm am angry and frustrated at the same time. Media and a few party leaders decide who will win and run.

The members of our party are outraged about delegates this election but these who did this are still in their cushy jobs in DC. Don't tell me it was the state's fault. Our votes were stolen before the primary this time. We've demanded voting change but it is ignored. The small states having a say as to who runs/wins is just undemocratic. Powerful states like Michigan and Florida had little say.

My local party leader is always running for public office and no one else qualified can run against her. Republicans win because she is pro-war. I told her about it but she's still there. Nancy Skinner (pro-war)did the same in our state and lost every time. Now she's running in Indiana.

There is a local person who would be good to run against Melissa Bean (Republican light) but "the national party" has invested too much money to run against her. So she's running against a Republican for a state office first. I do support her by working, contributing,etc.

I've sent funds to Progressive Democratic groups who support and give money to their candidates only to find those too are "Republican light".

Party leaders and lobbyists are there for the salary. That big new Democratic headquarters has resulted in arrogant and corrupt leadership. They've actually grown in numbers since Bush stole power even though they lose every election since 2000.

We've been betrayed so many times in my state in the last few years, by candidates who become office holders, I can't count them.

You know...they don't care about what the voters think. The corporations give them so much money (yes it's our money in the end). The shadow government gives them jobs, power, etc. When they leave office they pad their pockets with book deals, director jobs, and excessive speaking fees. The citizen representatives just can't function anymore without that power and money. They never leave "public or shadow government".

University of Iowa gave Carl Rove a $40,000 speaking fee. That's tax payer money at a public university. The President of the University should be asked to leave. Speaking fees and books are money laundering to reward them for their vote and treason.

I demand my representatives not belong to these "secret" organizations. I demand over sight by my Congressional representatives but in the end...they are part of the problem. I demanded those huge book deals to politicians (before sale). Hearings on the hill mean little.

I'm a senior with health problems so it limits me. I was in the streets during Vietnam, etc. Stop telling us to work...the party ignores us.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. SCOTUS Installing Bush Was Also WithinThe Rules
No one here accepted that decision.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
10. If it does that, it isnt the Democratic party anymore
the people are the party.
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Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. And we'll wind up with another Rethug prez just like we deserve. nt
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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. That's where we're heading now if BO doesn't drop out. You
know there is no way BO can win the GE now. With his qualifications, inexperience,and now his lack of judgement there is no way he can make it.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. I will vote for Hillary if she's the nominee.
... and I bet you will too.

Seriously! President McCain? Would any of us want to take responsibility for that? I'd feel responsible if I didn't vote for the Democrat. If I vote, at least I can tell myself that I am not to blame for the destruction of the country.

-Laelth
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. There's A Much Higher Principle At Stake Here
The will of the people needs to be respected. We've all witnessed first hand what 8 years of ignoring the will of the people hath wrought.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
32. By both parties.
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bellasgrams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. I think the will of the people will soon shift to Hillary if it hasn't already
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Does She Have The Delegates Or The Votes Lead?
That's the only question that should be asked.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
23. What is the will of the people? More Democrats have voted against
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 03:46 AM by Benhurst
both our two leading candidates than have voted for them. The primary process is so screwed up a Solomon wouldn't be able to figure out what the results really mean.

Were the Republicans and Independents who voted in our open primaries choosing the person they thought best or were they trying to make the general election easier for the Republicans?

The awarding of delegates was often contrary to the primary results, overturning the choice made by the voters, sometimes for this candidate, other times for that.

The agreed upon rule for winning the primary was getting a majority, not a plurality. Those claiming otherwise are attempting to change the rules midstream. Any thing less than 2024 or 2025 (even that rule is complicated and the number changes depending on who is still alive or still serving in elected office or whatever) is, under the rules, a loss. Claiming otherwise is similar to claiming you won the lottery because your number, while not the right one, was "closest." It's a bit late in the game to change the primary into our version of The Biggest Loser.

Given the distinct possibility that one of our two Biggest Losers will be pushed over the finish line by unelected super delegates, will the followers of the other candidate feel cheated? Would the selection of even one of the two Biggest Losers be "the will of the people?"

The polls have proved inaccurate time after time. Is any poll accurate enough to be used to determine the will of the people? Would Democrats be willing to accept a candidate chosen by a poll after so many have participated in a primary process which produced no candidate with a majority?

Since the majority of Democrats voted against both Clinton and Obama, is it "the will of the people" for the unelected super delegates to withhold their votes on the first ballot, effectively creating a brokered convention? Should a compromise third candidate should be nominated? If so, who? And would X be considered "the will of the people?"




:shrug:

Bottom line: nobody really knows what "the will of the people" is. At best we have two candidates who have only been able to muster minority support within the Democratic party, and no one with a proven ability to attract the majority of Democratic voters, to say nothing of the electorate as a whole.

To our party leaders, including Obama and Clinton, who agreed to the rules:
"It's a fine mess you've gotten us into!*"

*With a tip of the hat to Laurel and Hardy.



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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Good point
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. Claiming otherwise is similar to claiming you won the lottery because your number,
while not the right one, was "closest."



That's a very well put line Benhurst.
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TheDeathadder Donating Member (731 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. shut up
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. America is NOT a democracy. Never has been.
America is a republic. We do not elect our leaders by popular vote in primaries nor the general election.

United States of America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_America

Type of government: Constitutional republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Shh!
Don't confuse us with facts. Reading rots the mind.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Historically, compromise candidates have been chosen at conventions
Edited on Sat Mar-15-08 03:45 AM by depakid
With an eye toward the prize (as opposed to self-indulgence).

In other western nations, party leaders aren't chosen through exceptionally expensive, long and byzantine processes.

Yet they face off -get the issues out (often door to door) and their outcomes are, more often than not- better than we've seen in the states for 40 years.

Just something to think about....

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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Shh!
More facts. Heads will explode!
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BringBigDogBack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
29. K&R
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
36. Everything the Republicans do to "The People" will then be on you. n/t
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-15-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
37. I agree.
While I would vote for Hillary if she won the nomination, I don't know if I could do it if she didn't even win the popular vote. That would mean that the Democratic Party disregarded its voters, its process, and its future.
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