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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:03 PM
Original message
Kerry: "NO DRAFT"
http://www.alligator.org/edit/news/issues/stories/04041...

Kerry pitches policy
Senator, college students confer
By JUSTIN HEMLEPP
Alligator Staff Writer

April 14, 2004

Calling his presidential candidacy a pretty stark choice from that of the current administration, Sen. John Kerry promised to help college students cope with rising tuition costs, if he is elected.

In an effort to engage younger voters, Kerry kicked off a tour of college campuses Tuesday and an afternoon teleconference with more than 130 student journalists from across the country.


-snip-

Kerry has indicated he plans to bolster the number of men and women in the American military with existing Pentagon funds by creating two divisions.

Asked if his plan to add the divisions to Americas fighting forces would require conscription, Kerry quickly replied, No. No draft.


The choice between the two on this issue is now clear.

This summer Bush is reducing DRAFT ACTIVATION time by having the SSS conduct NATIONWIDE EXERCISES to test the whole system, even to the point of filling all DRAFT BOARD vacancies and gearing up the Alternative Service for COs for the first time in three decades. The SSS this summer is finalizing the 2 documents needed for the AS to start up, the SOP identifying ASW employers and the MOUs those employers will have to sign to get those cheap, unassigned workers. THis is the last essential piece that had to be activated before the March 31 report. (On March 31, 2005, the SSS must report it is ready to conscript within 75 days of authorization rather than the current 193 days!!!)
http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

Kerry's NO-DRAFT plan to raise 40,000 additional troops and avoid reinstatement of the draft is added up this way (my synthesis of what Kerry talks about when asked):

1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there)
2. Increase enlistment with real scholarships and pay, benefit raises
3. Let troops know Special Ops will hunt al-Queda, no more invasions needed, so re-up rate goes up. "Primarily a law enforcement effort, not a full military effort", say JK on MTP 4/18/04.
4. Start a "Civilian Stability Corps" that would help in reconstructing Afghanistan and Iraq and relieve military pressure.
5. GET FOREIGN TROOPS TO COME INTO INSTEAD OF LEAVE IRAQ!!

The 40,000 new troops DO NOT go to Iraq but relieve the divisions in Korea and elsewhere and THEY GO.

http://www.candidatemap.com

"...I propose that we enlist thousands of them in a Civilian Stability Corps, a reserve organization of volunteers ready to help win the peace in troubled places. Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the worldand reduce pressure on the military."
< Source: Kerry, John. "Protecting Our Military Families in Times of War: A Military Family Bill of Rights." March 17, 2004. http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0317.h... >

With this NO-DRAFT PLAN, Kerry will not have to resort to conscription, even after Bush screwed the whole thing up.

Also don't forget how Kerry won the Silver Star. He got fed up being shot at from the same place on the river so he ordered something not really allowed by the brass--a full frontal attack by 3 swift boats with guns roaring on the Vietcong emplacement--which left one VC soldier running off with an RPG. Kerry then beaches his boat and jumps OVERBOARD with an M-16 onto the land and chases him down. Shots are heard and Kerry returns with the RPG.

To me that bodes well for a President Kerry addressing the War on Terror. He will go right for the Saudi network that funds it all. Don't forget he put Bin Mahfouz, OBL's brother-in-law, under house arrest for BCCI and had him fined $225 million. And he will go renewable energy and for energy independence and has said over and over no more soldiers will die for oil!

BUSH '04 = DRAFT '05
KERRY '04 = PNAC OUT THE DOOR!
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Right On!
He rocks!
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Send civilians into Afghanistan?????????
Oh, I wish he hadn't brought this up.

First campaign promise broken.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. As part of a volunteer Corps
What promise was broken??
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. EEEEEEEEasy
Volunteers!!!
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. OK, I have a problem with some of this
"The 40,000 new troops DO NOT go to Iraq but relieve the divisions in Korea and elsewhere and THEY GO"

So what does this mean? Only people who are currently enlisted are eligible to go to Iraq?

I'm sorry but I find it disgusting that the burden to go to Iraq will fall only on a few.

This is Kerry's war too, he voted to give Bush a blank check to go into Iraq. If he believes in it, he needs to fund it and man it.

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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You need to understand there are few troops available
for the March 2005 rotation. Kerry would not be Prez until January and creating the 2 new divisions would take time. It does not involve this rotation but probably one in 2006 and on. Kerry is talking about the future.

He does want to get out of Iraq and is far more likely than Bush to be able to get us out whatever the situation. Even Dean said 2-3 years in Iraq now that we're there.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Well, this resolves one argument - against some of Kerry's supports...
...who have been claiming that these 40,000 new troops will replace troops currently in Iraq.

GUESS AGAIN. It appears you were wrong.

Will you admit it? Or will you instead claim you were still somehow impossibly right, and people like myself who actually were correct are "Naderite b*sh-lovers"?

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I see no one is willing to admit when they're wrong.
Yet, when those of us who are critical of Kerry's votes or stances are wrong, people scream at us for it for days.

Well, I won't prod anyone that way. I'll just say: how hypocritical. And how very, very unsurprising that the most rabid anti-dissent anti-"leftist" Kerry supporters (a small fraction, thankfully) refuse to admit when they're wrong.

You guys and gals - and you know exactly who you are - are no better than partisan Republicans. What's worse is that you should know better.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. WTF are you talking about? This is the exact same position
Kerry has always had.

:wtf:

I've been defending this same position from misrepresentation since Kerry first announced it.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. I don't think I understand your reasoning.
Right now we have an all-volunteer military. That means that folks in the military now, wherever they are stationed, volunteered to serve.

I'm a lot happier with the idea of moving existing troops around than I am with drafting new troops.
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LiberalBushFan Donating Member (831 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. verrrry good...
But more importantly he has to say Bush=draft, and he better do it soon, otherwise Bush will do it to him, and once you're on the defensive you lose.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is a bullshit promise!
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 03:58 PM by IndianaGreen
1. Move some paper-pushers to combat (lots of potential there)


Totally false claim! The military does not have "paper-pushers" anymore. Military occupations have been converted to civilian occupations beginning with Dick Cheney's tenure as Secretary of Defense at the end of the Gulf War. The process continued under Defense Secretary William Cohen during the 8-years of the Clinton Administration. Rumsfeld accelerated an already accelerated process by privatizing the military occupations that could be converted to civilian occupations.

We don't have "paper-pushers" left to move anywhere, much less combat!

Why do you think we have so many contractors doing the work that the military used to do, such as protecting and driving fuel convoys?

Why do you think that we have Reserve and NG units pulling so much active duty?

We can barely carry out the present mission with the current recruitment levels.

How high do you think our retention rate are going to be with an endless occupation of Iraq and continued military adventurism elsewhere?

Kerry can have his two additional divisions if he pulls out of Iraq altogether and tries to salvage what's left of our military. Or Kerry can continue the war, get his two divisions through conscription. This is one issue in which Kerry cannot have it both ways. The numbers are simply not there!
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. There are still nearly 1 million in the Armed Services and not
active combat-duty troops. He gets some, not all of the 40,000 from that. Rummy complained hardly enough had been made civilian, BTW.

I trust Kerry on this, he has explained it several times now.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Well, you know we can't trust Bush to do anything other than fucked it up
but the numbers are not there for an additional 40,000 troops.

You can speak of trust, or faith, all you want. From where I am sitting, the numbers are not there without increased recruiting which is not likely to happen while we are bogged down in the Iraq quagmire.

More than one conspiracy theorist has suggested that the dismal employment situation in our country is purposely being maintained in order to force the poor and the under-employed into military service.
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
52. I've thought that myself
about the unemployment. I hope he stays true on this promise but the paper pusher idea seems a bit lame doesn't it? I don't know what Kerry will really do. I'd rather vote him in on the possibility he can figure something out than have bush yet I don't have much hope.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. NO BS, Kerry has a NO-DRAFT Plan and will use Special Ops, not infantry
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 04:40 PM by Dems Will Win
We can barely carry out the present mission with the current recruitment levels.

1. Agree but Kerry will bring in NATO, Russia and France big-time and we will need many less troops there.

How high do you think our retention rate are going to be with an endless occupation of Iraq and continued military adventurism elsewhere?

2. The question REALLY is how high do you think our retention rate are going to be with reduced occupation of Iraq and the END of military adventurism elsewhere? Plus Kerry will increase the enlistment rate as many are waiting to join but not while Bush is Commander-in-Chief. They will join and re-up for Kerry but not Bush because they know he sees the fight against al-Queda as a Special Ops problem not an infantry problem. And they don't want to die for oil. They do want to serve to protect against OBL and with Kerry in that's what they will be doing.

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. But no matter how you look at Kerry "No Draft" is not bullshit...
You can't promise No Draft and go back on it. It would be politicial suicide. Being 18 years old, "No Draft" would be enough to get me to vote ABB even if I didn't like Kerry.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Unless we pull out of Iraq by this time next year
there will be a draft!
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Umm there's something called re-election
With the exception of maybe Bush, I'd trust almost any politician who says "No Draft" when they have to run for re-election. If Kerry instated a draft he would probably loose the democratic nomination in '04 and if not his Republican challenger would win 50 states.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. What a bullshit hypothetical
Excuse me while I puke on my shoes. :puke:

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Still, it's worth asking, even if you find it unpalatable.
Better to at least know one's options should it happen than to ignore the possibility.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. No, it's stupid bullshit:
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 10:36 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
It's the kind of dishonest negative attack that is more appropriately directed at Bush. Which, I guess, is the reason it was deleted.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. It's not dishonest to realize that we will need a draft if we stay in Iraq
Now, I qualify that: if we succeed at bringing other countries or the UN into Iraq to augment and begin to replace our soldiers, then the draft is less and less a possibility.

I'm not convinced that the UN or other countries will jump at the chance to go into Iraq. A lot depends on the Iraqis' willingness to allow more outsiders into Iraq at the request of a Kerry administration. If they do, and there's no need for a draft, I'll be more than happy to concede that I was wrong.

If we stay in Iraq and get no help - which will happen if 1) we continue with the foolish notion of permanent military bases in Iraq or 2) we continue the privatization of Iraqi businesses and assets into American hands - a draft will be necessary.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Kerry says flat out: No Draft
That's what the story is here.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Lots of politicians say things that later change.
That's not a knock against Kerry, it's an acknowledgment of reality.

As I said, a draft may become necessary depending on certain conditions, even if Kerry does not want one.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. So in terms of this election, it comes down to
who's election will be most likely to foster those conditions?

Bush or Kerry?

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Oh, there's no question who's far worse for the country.
I've never argued that Kerry = b*sh. That's too simplistic and, I think, lazy.

That said, Kerry has quite a few flaws. Unfortunately, many of our fears will not be confirmed before the election. However, I am prepared to come down just as hard on Kerry for his actions as I currently do for b*sh, should Kerry's future actions need protesting.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
51. Why do you assume that the U.S. will stay in Iraq?
The Iraqis don't want us there. The rest of the world doesn't want us there. When the U.S. citizens realize that the choice is between a draft and leaving, the choice "leave now" will be a no-brainer.

It's not like we're helping the situation. We're making it worse.

We should leave. Plain and simple. No draft needed.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #51
63. I completely agree with you. We should get the hell out.
I think the U.S. may remain in Iraq even under Kerry, even after most of the troops leave - except those assigned to the military bases the b*sh administration is having built and Kerry may inherit.

With Peak Oil right around the corner - or having just passed behind us - military bases near all that oil would be very tempting, even to a Democratic president.

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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. "read his lips"
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. The way I see this is there will be no draft if...
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 08:30 PM by icymist
the rest of the world and NATO acts like we expect them to. Do we really think that France and Russia will put their troops in harms way on our behalf after the arrogance of the present administration?

edited for finer clarification.
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. I have a question about SSS
I have a question about the selective service...
why arent females required to register as well ?

i thought people wanted equality for the sexes?

that isnt very equal.

lol.

if anybody knows why, then please tell me.
are they trying to say females arent capable of being in the armed forces?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. Well, good. But-
If Kerry is president, we probably won't need a draft.

But as long as Bush is president, I think I'm on the side of making sure that every soccer moms' kids' lives hang in the balance when it comes to starting a BS war or not.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
28. glad to read that.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
29. National Service
Then why is he pushing "National Service" when the name of Rangel & Holling's draft bill is called the "Universal National Service Act"?

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/johnkerry_service_fact_she...

Today, John Kerry calls on all of Americas young people to serve, especially meeting
education challenges, and he outlines his agenda for domestic service. John Kerry would
engage 500,000 more Americans in national service each year within a decade,

I noticed his national service page has been changed in the last two weeks to erase all the military implications of his "National Service" plan and to remove the mandatory community service for high school.

Quotes like this
"The American military was designed to fight with coalition partners. Lacking those partners due to a failed policy of unilateralism, our Army is stressed to the breaking-point. John Kerry will temporarily increase the size of the active-duty Army by 40,000 troops so that we have the force structure for the challenges we face."

How will we do that?

"Today, I propose not only to build on that tradition, but to go beyond it because today, our challenges are different and our commitment must be even greater. We need a new era of service not an effort for one time, one purpose, or one group but a permanent and national endeavor. For America now, service is not just an option, but an obligation of citizenship."

< Kerry, John. "A New Era of National Service." Manchester, New Hampshire. May 19, 2003. http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_05... >

John Kerry Outlines Plan to Require Service for High School Students

Part of 100 days Plan to Enlist One Million Americans in National Service A Year

On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. John Kerry believes we need to think big and do better and get more young Americans serving the nation.

As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

It's not a draft it is National Service.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What part of NO DRAFT don't you understand?


You object to the use of the word 'service'? :wtf:

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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I agree. It is not a draft.
It's National Service.
Just like The Rangel-Hollings legislation (H.R. 163 in the House and S.89 in the Senate)

The Universal National Service Act of 2003
Defines "national service" as either military or civilian service as defined by the President that promotes national or homeland security.
http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/materials/20031276...
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. What a stupid argument - Kerry's proposal is 'just like' a different one -
because they both use the words 'national service' -- that is an utterly moronic argument.

You might as well believe Bush is for 'Healthy Forests' if you believe names have some kind of magic power.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I was pretty clear on his website what it meant
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 12:45 AM by nonkultur
Before it went down the memory hole. It was removed shortly the news programs started talking about the Universal National Service bill.

I see we will disagree on this.

I'll just continue to call a spade a spade and realise sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar.

edit:
I'll add this lil bit from PPI/National Service/Selective service
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=115&subs...

Instead of discarding the Selective Service System as an anachronism, therefore, this report proposes that it be reinvented as a recruiting device for voluntary national service. Specifically, PPI proposes to:

Replace the current Selective Service System with a National Service System that recruits young Americans to serve in one of three programs targeted at our new security needs: the military's new, short-term "citizen soldier" enlistment program, which should be scaled up to ease the growing strains on our military personnel; AmeriCorps, the nation's leading civilian volunteer corps, which should be expanded to bolster homeland security; and the Peace Corps, which should once again be a vital component of U.S. efforts to promote political and economic freedom abroad.

Require that both men and women register in this new National Service System.

Continue draft registration for those who choose not to volunteer for any of the three service options.
This policy report traces the evolution of America's approach to raising the military forces for its defense, examines growing strains on our current model of military recruiting and the emerging demands for civilian security efforts, and presents a blueprint for converting the passive Selective Service System into a National Service System that actively recruits young volunteers to serve their country.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Total bullshit - pretending that some OTHER policy is Kerry's policy
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 09:59 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
That's a dishonest argument. Untruthful statements. Deceptive and disingenuous attacks not related to Kerry's actual position.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Kerry is not DLC?
Does Kerry not get policy from the DLC/PPI these days?

Why did he change his "National Service" page after draft talk hit the evening news?

I guess it is "Other" if not enough people have seen it and you remove it via the memory hole.

Tell me who is being untruthful?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Kerry is Kerry. His policies are the ones he espouses.
Other people have other opinions and policies. If you want to take someone else's words and try to put them in Kerry's mouth that's your business.

I have the right to point out when someone uses dishonest and deceptive debate tactics to attack Kerry or anyone else.



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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Why the change?
Why the change on his national service page removing "As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service."

and
"John Kerry believes we must create a new Community Defense Service to be guided by our nations first responders. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country."

Dishonest is ignoring the fact that he was pushing the DLC/PPI agenda for "National Service" on his page until just over a week ago.

Answer my question, why did the campaign completely override the "National Service" page to remove reference the Community Defense Service & Mandatory Service for High School students?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Why are you making these false attacks? I don't know.
Why are you using these dishonest and deceptive tactics to attack Kerry? I don't know.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. What is false?
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 01:34 PM by nonkultur
I have not stated anything that is untrue. I am not attacking Kerry I am attacking a policy that was placed on his campaign page then removed when it started getting heat. It may have been covered up, but it has not been stated if there has been a reversal on those positions.

Why was the national service page changed when draft talk hit the evening news?

Will Kerry separate himself from the DLC/PPI policy in regards to "national service"?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. It is false to say Kerry's website says things it doesn't say.
It is also false to say it used to say things that it didn't used to say.


Your entire argument is dishonest and false.

Untrue in every way.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. False?
Current version
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice /

archived by russo and google cache
http://www.russoforpresident.com/kerry001.html

Down the memory hole!
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Yes it is false
It is false to claim or to insinuate that Kerry's webpage used to have some evil plan on it that was the same as some other evil plan that you care to criticize.


Speaking of the memory hole, here is a post I made in November about Kerry's plan. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I'm pretty sure that's the same plan he has now. Has the webpage changed? Yes. Does that mean they are hiding some evil plan? No.


If you have a complaint about Kerry's plan, state it. Don't attack some other plan and then pretend you are criticizing Kerry.


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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Heh
It's a little late, but How dare he impose "Child Labor" in his plan?
$500 grant for a whole summer of work?
Kids make more in Taiwan.
:)

Do you have a copy of the old PDF? I really wish I saved it.

The plans mirrored the DLC/PPI plan. This is one of my biggest issues.
The fact that it did dissapear as soon as talk on the "Universal National Service Act" does make me feel like they are now hiding it.

To me this election is looking like I have to choose between 1984 and Animal Farm.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Just repeating the same false and deceptive attack
is unimaginative. Please come up with something new. Simply repeating the same falsehood over and over is boring.



If you want to take issue with something in Kerry's plan, say what it is. Stop attacking other people and pretending it has something to do with Kerry.

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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. What type of service is it?
Consider that it's high school students. They have a certain amount of community service that they're required to complete before graduating.

The national service for tuition is a separate component. It was poorly worded on their website, but that's no excuse for misrepresenting it.
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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Mandatory Community service for High School
The 500,000 a year in National Service is going to be in three areas according to what the DLC is pushing.
"National Service System that recruits young Americans to serve in one of three programs targeted at our new security needs: the military's new, short-term "citizen soldier" enlistment program, which should be scaled up to ease the growing strains on our military personnel; AmeriCorps, the nation's leading civilian volunteer corps, which should be expanded to bolster homeland security; and the Peace Corps, which should once again be a vital component of U.S. efforts to promote political and economic freedom abroad."

The old PDF on National Service was alot more detailed unfortunately I can not find that archived anywhere.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. You are making false statements.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 02:58 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
What you are saying is not true. You keep attacking some other plan as if it were Kerry's. You keep accusing the Kerry campaign of changing their website in order cover something up--- that is a false and deceptive statement. It is untrue.

The old PDF on National Service was alot more detailed unfortunately I can not find that archived anywhere.


That is a fabrication on your part.

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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Wrong!
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 09:11 PM by nonkultur
That is a fabrication on your part.
compare http://www.russoforpresident.com/kerry001.html
to http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice /

Oh I guess the google cache was part of the right wing conspiracy.

The PDF that was up 2 weeks ago had the detailed plans on all of the following:


National Service Plan Highlights
"Service for College" Initiative
As President, John Kerry will call on young people to help strengthen America's security and address unmet community needs. In return, he believes we should offer young Americans and their families the opportunity for a college education. A Kerry Administration will offer Americans the chance to earn the equivalent of their state's four-year public college tuition in exchange for two years of service. If service members decide not to go to college, their award can be used for job training or to help start a business. John Kerry will set a national goal of half a million young people serving their nation every year within ten years. President Bush promised to double AmeriCorps, but he broke that promise and let Congressional Republicans cut the program in half. John Kerry believes we need to think big and do better and get 500,000 young Americans serving the nation.

100,000 Older Americans in Service
As President, John Kerry will defend and strengthen vital programs such as Medicare and Social Security, but he also believes on calling on America's seniors to give their time, experience, and expertise to an America that needs their help. As President, John Kerry would create the Retired Not Tired Program. By mentoring students, helping the infirm, or working in their communities for 10 hours a week, members can earn up to $2,000 a year tax free that they can apply to an education grant for a family member or a member of their community. Alternatively, seniors will be able to use these funds to defray their own health care costs. John Kerry plans to engage 100,000 seniors a year in service in the next decade.

High School Service Requirement
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nations youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

Creating a New Community Defense Service
John Kerry believes we must create a new Community Defense Service to be guided by our nations first responders. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country. Service captains would be there to make sure our communities have the information they need and are ready to respond a crisis, complimenting but not supplanting the work done by police, fire fighters, and other first defenders. Volunteer Service Captains would receive training and education to assist their communities in the event of an attack. They would be trained to help identify local health professionals and experts in the area, provide information on local evacuation or quarantine plans, and stand ready to be of assistance to first defenders. This initiative would be funded out of the Department of Homeland Security and administered by local community leaders, including first responders. This 'surge' capacity would be in addition to the expanded numbers of first responders John Kerry has already proposed hiring.

A Summer of Service for Teenagers
Thirteen to seventeen year olds are too old for child care and too young for many summer jobs. John Kerry believes we should tap their energy and idealism through a summer of service learning. Supervised by AmeriCorps members, these young people could help out in nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills. In turn, they would receive a $500 grant to apply to their college or vocational educations down the road. Parents do not want to leave their children alone all summer but most cannot afford other means of care. The Summer of Service program would give parents peace of mind and at the same time build more responsible and dedicated young citizens and stronger, more vibrant communities.

A Rebirth of the Peace Corps
If there was ever a time that everyday people in developing countries around the world needed to see idealistic, hard-working Americans struggling to help them succeed, it is today, in the aftermath of September 11th. Peace Corps members are the greatest ambassadors of goodwill and foot soldiers for democratization this nation has - and we need more of them. John Kerry believes we need a major expansion of the Peace Corps for this new century and in this new era. In the White House, John Kerry will push to expand the Peace Corps to 25,000 members.

Recruiting More Americans to the Military
The highest form of service is military service. America's military is having trouble recruiting and is increasingly relying on the reserves for active duty. John Kerry believes we must change that. The complicated missions we face and technologies we use depend on it. In a Kerry Administration, no university that receives federal aid will be allowed to ban the ROTC from their campus, except for religious reasons. And the ROTC scholarship program will be adequately funded so that students can attend the college of their choice. John Kerry will also make modernizing our GI benefits a top priority, because no program has been more successful increasing educational opportunities for veterans while also providing an incentive for the best and brightest to make a career out of military

why was all this removed????

I do not like being called a liar

Tell me what will happen if he can not fill the 500,000 he is talking about. I think the PPI report on Selective Service gives a pretty good impression.

Since when do Democrats push for a bigger military?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. You've proved that your point is false.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 10:28 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
You keep trying to insinuate that Kerry's plan is the same as some other plan, but all the evidence shows that your insinuatation is false.


What exactly is your objection to Kerry's actual plan?

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nonkultur Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. My Objections
Mandatory Service work for High School students.

Creating a New Community Defense Service(please just have police write less tickets and do more actual policing)

The fact that National Service for Tuition will most likely have the options of
1.)Civilian Stability Corps(Warzone peace corp)
2.)Community Defense Service (AmeriCorps expanded to bolster homeland security)
3.)Military Service

Recruiting More Americans to the Military
We have troops in 140 countries. How many more do we need?

5,000,000-1,000,000 "Volunteers" are going to have to come from somewhere. It would not be a draft if say "National Service" is a requirement to enter college or if it was a "Universal" program.

If Kerry seriously wants to be taken seriously on the "No Draft"
issue. Take a stand and promise to abolish Selective Service.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. So you object to everything you make up and pretend is Kerry's position
Your arguements are transparently dishonest. You are just making false statements about Kerry's positions and attacking that.

:puke:

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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
53. His national service
is bullshit and he did have it tied in with Military Serviceby expressing that was a good way to fulfill your obligation. I didn't know he changed it. Sometimes I think no matter who wins we'll be screwed one way or another. Why do we need this mandatory service anyway? Why try and introduce the idea into our society? It's sounds too much like bush to me.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't think Kery would institute a Draft...
But I know bush will, if he gets 4 more years. His entire ideology is built on eternal warfare...he enjoys death.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
54. It was great right up to the Civilian Stability Corps part...
Like military reservists, they will have peacetime jobs; but in times of national need, they will be called into service to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force. A Civilian Stability Corps can bring the best of America to the worst of the worldand reduce pressure on the military.

If anyone should be employed to restore roads, renovate schools, open hospitals, repair power systems, draft a constitution, or build a police force..shouldn't it be the Iraqi people? Providing them with the capital and security is one thing, but Iraq is not our nation!

If we are not willing to even let them draft the Iraqi constitution or rebuild their country, then it is time to leave. Obviously our aid is just an excuse to keep another nation under marshall law.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. The corps would not do it all, they would assist and advise
and try to get the countries back on their feet and working again.
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flaminbats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-27-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. I remember former Senator Tsongas pushed an idea like this in 1992..
I agree with the idea of a Civilian Executive Corp of some kind, but I don't think they should be used in Iraq. When Tsongas first proposed the idea, the Soviet Union was breaking apart. The idea was to send over some of our experienced, unemployed CEO's during that recession and use them to train people in the former Soviet Republics on current business practices.

I don't think people in Iraq lack business sense..what they lack is the foundation for a stable society. Unfortunately they had this stability before we imposed an embargo on their nation, began to arm different factions fighting Saddam, and finally took down the central government in Iraq.

All I am suggesting is that a such a corp would do nothing to help Iraq. If Kerry opposes the draft he should support increased pay for the soldiers, greater funding and oversight of the VA, and a deadline for bringing home the troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Between now and that deadline we must work with the UN to finance the reconstruction of an Iraqi nation by the Iraqi people.
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