If the IWR vote is such a big deal, should Obama "reject and denounce" John Kerry's support?

[Apollo11]

See if you can spot the hypocrisy in this sequence of statements:


Senator John Kerry, speech to US Senate, October 9, 2002

It is clear the Senate is about to give the President the authority he has requested sometime in the next days. Whether the President will have to use that authority depends ultimately on Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein has a choice: He can continue to defy the international community, or he can fulfill his longstanding obligations to disarm. He is the person who has brought the world to this brink of confrontation.

He is the dictator who can end the stalemate simply by following the terms of the agreement which left him in power.

By standing with the President, Congress would demonstrate our Nation is united in its determination to take away that arsenal, and we are affirming the President's right and responsibility to keep the American people safe. (...)

So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations -- an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create -- to simply be ignored by this dictator.

http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/kerryspeech.asp


Senator Hillary Clinton, speech to US Senate, October 10, 2002

I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. (...)

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition. (...)

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections. (...)

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html


Senator Hillary Clinton at the MSNBC Debate in Ohio on February 26, 2008

I've said many times that, although my vote on the 2002 authorization regarding Iraq was a sincere vote, I would not have voted that way again.

I would certainly, as president, never have taken us to war in Iraq. And I regret deeply that President Bush waged a preemptive war, which I warned against and said I disagreed with.

www.nytimes.com/2008/02/26/us/politics/26text-debate.html?pagewanted=21


Senator Barack Obama speaking in Ohio on March 2, 2008

And I do want to take a moment to respond because the press is, I'm sure, curious to an ad that Senator Clinton is apparently running today. It asks a legitimate question. It says, "Who do you want answering the phone in the White House when it's 3:00 a.m. and something has happened in the world?"

It's a legitimate question. And we've seen these ads before. They're usually the kind that play upon people's fears and try to scare up votes. I don't think these ads will work this time because the question is not about picking up the phone, the question is, what kind of judgment will you exercise when you pick up that phone?

In fact, we have had a red-phone moment. It was the decision to invade Iraq. Senator Clinton gave the wrong answer. George Bush gave the wrong answer. John McCain gave the wrong answer.

I stood up and I said that a war in Iraq would be unwise. It would cost us thousands of lives and billions of dollars. I said that it would distract us from the real threat that we face. And that we should take the fight to Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

That's the judgment I made on the most important foreign policy decision of our generation.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/02/cnr.06.html


Senator John Kerry on CNN Late Edition, March 2, 2008

Hillary Clinton has never received a 3 a.m. in the morning telephone call as a senator or as a first lady. And secondly, when asked, when her campaign was asked, well, what crisis has she ever faced in which she's made a difference in foreign policy, they really couldn't answer.

They tried to say, well, she made a speech in China or something like that. The fact is that she had a red phone moment, as Barack Obama said. Her red phone moment was on the war in Iraq, and she chose the Bush course, the wrong course.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/02/le.01.html


:eyes:

[Captain Hilts]

1. No. As Adm Fallon said in VF, the decision to go to war or stop one is one man's - GWB's. nt

[Apollo11]

2. What? You mean Hillary is not responsible for starting this war?

Maybe someone should try telling that to some of the Hillary haters here on DU?

[GarbagemanLB]

4. Why should he reject Kerry's support? Kerry has admitted that the vote was a mistake, and now suppor

ts the only anti-war candidate running for the Democratic ticket.

[Apollo11]

5. John Kerry has admitted he once made a mistake?

I must have missed that one. Got link?

As far as I know, he never even took back that lame joke about getting "stuck in Iraq". :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Using that "stuck in Iraq" quote against Kerry

disqualifies you from saying ANYTHING about Kerry, because obviously you prefer republican talking points over the truth.

[ellacott]

9. link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kerry/mistakes-and-responsibili_b_31482.html

[Apollo11]

11. Kerry was trying to clear the path for another Presidential run

I don't see how Senator Kerry can honestly say that he completely disagrees with a whole 45-minute speech that he made on the Senate floor back in October 2002. Sorry - I don't buy it.

[ellacott]

22. Then this becomes your issue

His post was very clear. No one can make you believe it.

[blm]

53. He stood against the DECISION to invade BEFORE, DURING and AFTER Bush decided.

He was one of the few IWR voters to stand against the DECISION to invade BECAUSE the weapon inspections were PROVING force was not necessary. Just as he promised he would when he made that vote IF Bush didn't do what was needed to make invasion a LAST RESORT.

He received no backup on that from Clinton who sided with Bush's DECISION to invade. Big difference.

You aren't very attentive are you?

[democrattotheend]

24. Makes me sad to read that

I still believe that if he had said during the campaign that he had made a mistake, he might be president today.

[ellacott]

26. I agree

[LSK]

16. he didnt make a lame joke about getting "stuck in Iraq"

He botched the delivery and missed ONE WORD.

:eyes:

[Apollo11]

31. Even if he had remembered all the words - it is still a lame joke in very poor taste.

Trying to deliver a lame bad-taste joke in front of TV cameras in the middle of an election campaign showed very bad judgement, in my opinion.

President George W Bush is more educated than most people. He even has an MBA. So Kerry's joke was not funny however you want to look at it.

[LSK]

35. W is reported to have been a C student

And he did get US stuck in Iraq.

[Apollo11]

36. W had very little to do with it

Cheney and Rumsfeld organized the whole thing together with their PNAC Neo-Con buddies.

[LSK]

39. why are you defending W over Kerry???

He was the President. The buck stops with him.

Geezzzzzzzzzz

The great heights someone will go to just to win a fucking argument on a discussion board.

[Apollo11]

40. I'm not defending W. I am slamming Kerry's judgement.

PS - thanks for keeping my thread kicked! B-)

[LSK]

42. one more kick

And you are wrong!

:D

[democrattotheend]

20. Right here

"As someone who made the mistake of voting for the resolution that gave the president the authority to go to war, I feel the weight of personal responsibility to act to devote time and energy to the national dialogue and an effort to limit this war and bring our participation to a conclusion," he said in a speech on the Senate floor.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/24/kerry.2008/index.html

I don't think 2007 was the first time he said he'd made a mistake, but that was the first thing I found.

[democrattotheend]

23. Here's another link

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/10/12/kerry_voices_deep_regret_for_voting_for_iraq_war/

Article says he first admitted it was a mistake in October 2005.

[pampango]

6. Not a Hillary hater, but I do hold people accountable for their votes.

We support candidates because of a "big picture" including their strengths and weaknesses, the good and the bad.

To hold her IWR vote against her, does not absolve Bush of ultimate responsibility, but a senator should not pass off a vote on war as inconsequential.

[Hepburn]

27. She is responsible for giving GWB-azzhat the authority...

...given to Congress and expecting him to do the right thing. She is also responsible for doing this for purely political self-interest, she is responsible for never apologizing for her mistake and she is responsible for not admitting that she made a fucking mistake in support that lying POS in the WH.

Apparently, she was not a big enough person to do the right thing.

[Captain Hilts]

50. He already had the authority. New Yorkers supported this vote. Letterman did! nt

[Johnny__Motown]

3. No, just should not vote for him for President

[Occam Bandage]

7. No. He should just avoid voting for him in the Democratic primary.

[LSK]

10. has Hillary called her vote a mistake yet???

Or is she helping Bush with plans to bomb Iran?

[Apollo11]

13. Hillary has said "I would not have voted that way again"

It was towards the end of the MSNBC debate in Ohio on Feb 26th. See OP for link.

It's a very honest answer, which means that she thought she was doing the right thing at the time (as did John Kerry) but with the benefit of hindsight she can see it would probably have been better to vote the other way.

It seems clear that Senator Clinton regrets voting for the IWR back in 2002.

[LSK]

15. well shes on par with John Kerry from 3 or 4 years ago

Glad shes up to speed with things.

[Hepburn]

28. Ummmmmmmm.....

...is that because it is coming back to bite her in the ass now...and hurting her political future...or because she truthfully (ha! that word applied to Hillary) understands at this point in time that is was a huge mistake for all of us and not just her mediocre political career?

Hmmmmmmm....???

[redqueen]

30. Not exactly a puzzler, that. (nt)

[Mooney]

12. I never thought I would see the day

where, on a supposedly "progressive" board, there would be so many people characterizing the IWR vote as a negligible issue. This is the worst foreign policy disaster of my lifetime, and it will take decades to undo. Anyone who had a hand in it needs to be held responsible for their vote.

If we don't hold our elected officials responsible for their actions, what's the fucking point? Why even have elections?

[Apollo11]

18. I am not saying the IWR vote is a negligible issue

My point is this. If Obama's campaign is asking us to question Hillary Clinton's judgement when it comes to making a decision at 3AM, on the basis that she voted for the IWR back in 2002, they cannot expect us to respect John Kerry's judgement when it comes to choosing our next Commander in Chief.

John Kerry endorsed Barack Obama in January 2008, but maybe 4 years down the road he will change his mind and admit his endorsement was a big mistake? :eyes:

[Mooney]

29. You wouldn't be minimizing or trying to downplay Obama's opposition to the war

if you didn't think it was a negligible issue, or at least one that we should overlook for the sake of Hillary Clinton. The "issue" of Kerry supporting Obama is a red herring that's meant to cast Obama's opposition to the war as somehow opportunistic and hypocritical. The only reason anyone would take this tack is to deflect criticism from Hillary Clinton for her IWR vote. There's no other reason.

To simplify: It's a disingenuous argument that's meant to distract people from the fact that Hillary Clinton cast a very bad vote. It's consistent with her ongoing efforts to downplay Obama's opposition to the war, since it's a strong issue for him and a bad one for her. It's classic Rove --- attack your opponent's strengths. And to be honest, it's a pretty transparent tactic at this point.

[Apollo11]

34. Interesting analysis

But in fact I am just calling out liars like Pelosi and hypocrites like Kerry who think they can wrap up this race by throwing rocks at the candidate who is currently in second place.

[Mooney]

38. Well, Hillary's tough, right?

She can take it. She can also take the consequences of her vote. She should, anyway, and she shouldn't be protected from her own short-sightedness and refusal to look at the facts. Any rocks thrown at her on the basis of her record in the senate come with the territory of running for office. The people throwing said rocks may be hypocrites themselves, but that doesn't mean she hasn't earned the scorn anyway.

The Bushies were gaming for Iraq before they even got into office. Dick Cheney spoke about invading Iraq for eight minutes at the vice presidential debate in 2000. Their desire the invade Iraq was a matter of public record for four years before the IWR ever came to a vote. If Hillary Clinton had been paying attention, she would have voted down any resolution that gave the Bush administration any leeway to go to war, no matter how distant and remote that leeway might have been. She's an attorney --- the in-depth analysis of long documents with many fine details and subclauses was her stock in trade for decades, before she ever hit the senate. The fact that she's trying to stay in the race using technicality after technicality proves that she knows how to research a complicated and convoluted process and draw conclusions from it. So she was either completely negligent when she cast that vote, or she knew exactly what she was doing, or she was truly "duped" by Bush. And if the third option is true, and she can be outmaneuvered by George W. Bush, then she's a fucking moron.

I'm sorry, but this matters to me. I have an eight month old son, and it's entirely conceivable that when he's 18 the war could still be going on. Anybody who's had a hand in creating that situation needs to be held accountable for it.

[Apollo11]

47. According to your logic

we should not have nominated John Kerry back in 2004 and we should not trust his judgement now.

[Mooney]

51. I didn't think we should have nominated him in 2004, actually

I thought he was a very poor choice, and the IWR vote was a big part of it. It was as indefensible then as it is now.

As for his endorsement of Obama, maybe it displays poor judgment, maybe it doesn't. I don't know. But I don't see them as similar decisions, and I don't buy the argument that just because someone was wrong about one thing then they're wrong about everything and cannot be trusted on any level. I certainly don't believe that Hillary Clinton is wrong about everything solely on the basis of her IWR vote, and I'm sure that if she were elected president she would make a competent executive. But she has certain negatives that I have a hard time getting past, so as long as I still have a choice I'm sticking with it.

[scheming daemons]

14. Kerry admitted his mistake..... so he's forgiven. Hillary still stands by her position.

[Apollo11]

19. Hillary has said "I would not have voted that way again"

It was towards the end of the MSNBC debate in Ohio on Feb 26th. See OP for link.

It's a very honest answer, which means that she thought she was doing the right thing at the time (as did John Kerry) but with the benefit of hindsight she can see it would probably have been better to vote the other way.

It seems clear that Senator Clinton regrets voting for the IWR back in 2002.

[Swamp Rat]

43. Is Hillary offering support to Obama now too?

Logic. ;)

[BigDDem]

17. Here's how it works:

If you voted yes and later said it was a mistake, you have a clean slate.
If you don't say it was a mistake the war is single handily your fault.
Oh, and if you keep voting to pay for the bombs, that's okie dokie.

[GarbagemanLB]

21. And if you vote for cluster bombs?

[redqueen]

32. *crickets* are better than defending the continued use of cluster bombs.

Which is something I've seen some people around here actually do.

[BigDDem]

37. I dont base my vote on the cluster bomb vote

but if you do, hey, have at it.

[democrattotheend]

25. Nobody said it was single-handedly her fault

Maybe some DUers here have said that, but Obama certainly never has.

[endarkenment]

33. No. nt.

[Apollo11]

41. Kick

:kick:

[girl_interrupted]

44. Kerry also considered Mc Cain for VP

So I'm totally confused about Obama's stand. Obama campaigns for Kerry in 2004. John Kerry considers Mc Cain for VP in 2004. Hillary showed poor judgment but Kerry didn't? Obama criticizes the bush administration on how it entered and conducted the war yet votes twice for Rice's nomination in 2005, once to get the nomination endorsed and out of committee and then again in the Senate for approval? I don't know...very confusing.

[Apollo11]

46. Good point! Another red phone moment for John Kerry!

"Hello, is that you John? I'm calling to ask if you would consider joining me on the Democratic ticket."

[MNDemNY]

48. Obama's stand is crown me lord god.

If you do not, then you must be racist.

[Tom Joad]

45. Obama should renounce Obama for continuing to fund the occupation.

No excuse.
and yes, supporting clear war crimes is a big deal. I hope kerry meets a whore he can't resist, and she has a video camera. because he ain't nothin' but a whore for war, and as such, don't deserve political office.

[Apollo11]

49. Yay! I got 5 recommends!

:kick:

[Apollo11]

52. Kick

:kick: