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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:44 PM
Original message
Why the Caucus system has to go...
In Idaho, for example, a delegate to the convention is tied to about 585 caucus participants...

But in Georgia, each delegate is representing by 10,495 voters....

In Idaho, when they had a primary instead of a caucus, each delegate spoke for about 1,750 democrats...

And let's take a look at Washington....

In this caucus, the democrats attracted 31,621 participants for the Caucus...

That amounts to roughly one delegate for each 405 people, less than Idaho...

But in 2004 primary, the last statewide democratic primary that is available, the 2008 results have not been certified, there were 793,015 democrats who took the time to get out for a non-binding primary...

If that had been a primary, there would have been one delegate for each 14,963 democrats from Washington...

I just took a few states that were won by Obama, Georgia and Washington, to show the discrepancy in representative votes...

Look at those numbers...

Tell me that is anything more than opening the smoke filled backrooms to a few more people than in the days when the so-called party hacks and backroom wheeler and dealers decided for the rest of us...

I'm not sorry to point this out...

In fact, I am angry that we select our candidates via a willynilly collection of primaries and caucuses...

But I do believe, strongly, that if we are truly going to be a representative democratic party, we should demand that all states hold a binding primary...

Let all the people decide, not just those willing to spend a couple of hours at a meeting on one night or one afternoon...

Let's allow those people who work and can't get off and vote by absentee have a voice...

Let's let those people who couldn't get a baby sitter have a voice...

Let's let those folks too sick to trudge to a meeting in the middle of winter have a voice by voting absentee...

Let's get the party out of the smoke-free living rooms and high school auditoriums and give the vote back to all the democrats who wish to vote but can't commit the time and the energy of a select few party zealots...

And while we are at it, let's get rid of all the super delegates as well...

If we are truly going to be the party of the people, a party that represents all the people who call themselves democrats, then we should conduct ourselves accordingly...

To all the people who think this is a swipe at Obama, take a chill pill 'cause I'm not talking about being retroactive, I am talking being proactive for the 2012 primary season...

And this means Iowa...

Hold a freakin' primary...
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Have you ever participated in a caucus?
If not, then don't try to tell those of us who have we can't do it anymore. It's a fantastic opportunity to be activists and to meet our neighbors and have real conversations about politics.

I suppose you prefer primaries with touch screen machines?
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. No because I am disabled and can't guarantee that I can get to
a caucus site...

So I guess that means you deny the participation of disabled voters because you had a great experience at a caucus...

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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Shouldn't be any different than getting to a primary site.
The guy behind me in line at our caucus was in a wheelchair.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. He's one of the lucky ones...
A lot of people are shut-ins...

They can't get out even if they wanted too...

Why should they be disenfranchised...
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. They shouldn't; our state allowed absentees for shut-ins but again,
I don't see how that is not a problem with primaries also.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
56. Primaries allow for a long stretch of time...
And are sanctioned by the state...

Caucuses are party events and are only open for that brief time when they gather to do their thing...

So if someone can't get to the caucus right then and there, they are disenfranchized...
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. Maine has absentee voting
It is really very simple. Plus I enjoyed seeing my neighbors and hearing what they have to say politically speaking.

Caucus are much cheaper than primaries which is why Maine doesn't have them.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yaknow all those times people raise a ruckas at polls because someone placed a candiates button...
...near the poll or in the polling place or outside?

Because of coercion. You go into the poll, you see the button, you are coerced in some form or another to vote a different way. Caucuses are this. On meth and coke combined. With an adrenaline shot. In other words, they're not neutral, anonymous polls, they're public, and able to be manipulated.

Obama spent $20 million on on the ground staffers. It was brilliant, but the reason was he could infiltrate every caucus in a state, without even trying, by paying people on the ground to buy him legitimacy.

You can't do this in a poll because it's completely illegal to run around wearing a candidates campaign stuff.
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Kukesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Those would be Diebold touch screens. n/t
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. the MAIN reason they need to go
is because your candidate CAN'T FUCKING WIN ONE..............BWAHAHAHA
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. You have no idea who I voted for....
But I guess that means your candidate is the candidate of just those people who happen to be free and can attend a caucus...

Get real...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, yourself...

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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. all I know is you fit the profile
Clinton supporters like to whine a lot
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Well then you fit the profile
Of a self-important dilettant...
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. peace WC
I'm sorry my trigger finger is getting itchy today-I had no right really...I'm sorry
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Thank you....
I too apologize...
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. It's kind of like 300 here
in the midst of battle sometimes a sword gets swung astray
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Zachstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Save the Caucus vs Primary talk till after the GE please.
You have 2 caucus states to go and the rest are primaries.

Wait till after the GE and for DU to calm down then get the debate going towards 2012.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Some of us have been talking down about caucuses since 2000.
I know I have.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I always had a distates for the Caucus system...
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Why, it has to be setted at the convention...
To me this is more important than calling Hillary a Monster or saying Obama is a cult leader...

Tell me those threads are not just plain assinine...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Yeah, the superdelegates will have to consider the disproportionate nature of the process.
Otherwise they wouldn't be superdelegates.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Primaries that Obama won don't count
Clinton and her surrogates started pre-spinning why caucuses don't matter weeks before Iowa. It's really getting tired.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. The OP did not say that, please don't lie and distort.
I know this is a politics forum, but you can show a bit of honest citizenzry and not participate as our politicians do.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. You mean the Clinton team didn't pre-spin an Iowa Caucus loss?
Or any caucus losses thereafter?

Really?
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Give me a fucking break....
I guess you are too wrapped up in your own little crusade to actually read and understand what I wrote...

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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. I understand what you wrote. I couldn't disagree with you more.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM by VolcanoJen
I think all states matter, and I think states should act independently and hold the type of election that they choose. I've always rejected the Politburo style of Democratic party politics. I'm more of the Howard Dean, Markos "crashing the gates" ilk. I'm into the 50-state strategy. I want the party to be more representative and farther-reaching. I think Democrats in red states count. I should know (so should you), I am one.

It's fine that you feel so strongly. But I'm not on a crusade and I am capable of understanding you. I just disagree with you. Isn't the first time, either.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Then disagree...
Instead of couching your response in the style of one of the many petty arguments that are polluting DU...

I know we have disagreed many times on many issues, but still, you opened your argument against my position with a petty comment that should be beneath you...
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I'm so tired of pithy
I really am. There was nothing contemptuous in my comment and I reject your notion that it was petty. Your language toward me in response was beneath you, however.

But still, I remember when you convinced me to vote for Judge Sikora, so I'm just going to let this rest. I'm for caucuses and primaries. Done.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's up to the STATES.. we have no national rules about how states select their delegates
They have to fill a big ole convention hall, so they must send delegates.. and the convention is the Super Bowl for all the on-the-ground-workers, so they want MORE delegates..not fewer

Personally the whole convention thing could go bye-bye if I had a choice in it..

It is what it is..and the candidates know how the system works..or should..

They need to plan a strategy that covers all the bases..they cannot count on wrapping it up early and then coasting.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Red states can't afford primaries.
But I agree Obama has played it very well. He's buying these caucuses out wholesale, it's brilliant.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. The delegate selection process is controlled by the states
You should feel free to complain about your state, but don't try to tell my state how we should do things. We can get along just fine without your help.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Your state effects the national outcome so yea, I should have a say in
how your state is selecting the votes to our convention to nominate our national candidate...
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Tough shit
We don't select your representatives and you don't select ours.

Sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:06 PM
Original message
my, my, getting a little too close to the truth for you, eh? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. heh, heh -- thanks for the kicks -- so the caucus problems can be exposed. n/t
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. No sour grapes...
Just a sour view of representative democracy if the caucus system stands in the way of letting rank and file voters have a voice...
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. The DNC actually controls this process, and they can take caucusing out of their delegation...
...selection process.

They don't do it because red states can't afford it and it would put them off.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is why 56% of Democrats believe PV should be the decider at the DNC.
People aren't stupid, they understand simple concepts like this.
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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
20. Republicans tend not to waste time meeting with democrats
To give a phony vote unless they really support them, so I think Caucuses are more accurate.
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sorrybushisfromtexas Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. Texas Caucus
1.The caucuses in Texas occurred at the same place the election was held.

2. The polls closed at 7:00 we caucused at 7:15. (Vote at 6:55 and you only had 20 minutes to the time of the caucus.)

3. We had two people in wheel chairs. One was the only person at several caucuses through the years. She was a Clinton supporter by the way.


4. Obama's campaign had people who drove people to the caucuses who didn't want to drive or couldn't drive. My wife brought a 76 year old lady to her first caucus and she joined us in voting for Obama. I am sure you could find a fellow Clintonite to give you a ride.

5, The diversity in the Obama followers was fantastic. Black, Brown, Asian, Indian, young, old, and were excited. The caucus goers for Clinton were mainly white and older than I am.

(I am 58, a life long democrat (have voted democrat in every election since I could first vote in 1968), a financial supporter of DU, a teacher (oh yeah for the Obama haters I do have an occasional latte.) I also spent the morning painting over the gang graffiti around my school, I am a Southern Baptist deacon, a member of the Optimist Club, work at our girl's Softball complex, lead the boy's mission program at Church, and volunteer for many other community projects. I am a community activist who sees hope in a man that can unify our country in so many ways. I was the first in my entire family to go to college. I am a proud, unashamed liberal in a very Republican State. I am not an elitist, follower of some scary cult leader as SOME CLINTON supporters claim. I support Barack Obama 100 per cent. If Hill the Thrill wins I will hold my nose and vote for her. My wife and I want want change not Hillary Mc Clinton.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Why The Caucus System Has To Go? Because Hillary is LOSING, of course.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Again, you have no idea how I voted...
So cut the crap all ready...

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. How come we are only hearing about this now then?
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I have been calling to rid the party of caucuses and superdelegates
for a while now...

But I am snowed in today and had some spare time to sit in front of the computer and yammer about something I have always thought was wrong about the party...
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. So post it in another forum. It doesn't belong here. And I apologize for generalizing your stance.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. there is nothing wrong with posting here in this forum. n/t
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #31
50. Excuse me...
This is the primary election forum...
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. absolutely, WC. Seems that some want to shut down discussion on this topic. n/t
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. I'm certain that if Hillary was winning the caucuses
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 05:04 PM by bowens43
you'd feel differently.

Here's a clue, Hillary isn't losing because caucuses are unfair. Hillary is losing because she's a piss poor choice for the Democratic nominee.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. You have no idea who I voted for in my primary...
You can't tell whether I was for Obama or Clinton or Dennis Kucinich for all you know...

I stayed out of the sometimes childish name calling that some people think shows support for a particular candidate...

Be an adult and look at something on it's merit, not how it fits into your own little world view...
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. WC, THANK YOU FOR THIS GREAT THREAD AS TO WHY CAUCUSES SHOULD GO! N/t
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh, and WC, people don't like it when you speak the truth.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 05:08 PM by antigop
Thank you for exposing the system for what it is.

Kudos.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. I say screw 'em
Have one nationwide primary day and have every single vote count equally.

Hell, I say screw the two party system.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. example of why caucuses have to go -- three precincts' votes won't count in TX
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/518514.html

Hundreds of people were crammed into the tiny cafeteria at Atherton Elementary School in Arlington on Tuesday night.

They waited there, shoulder to shoulder, at precinct caucuses for more than two hours to declare their support for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama for president. People who attended said the mood grew heated as participants lost confidence in whether their votes would be counted.

They had every reason to worry. The Tarrant County Democratic Party confirmed Friday that it had received envelopes with blank forms for all three precinct caucuses at the school.

"At this point, we don't have any record that anything happened there," said Keith Annis, the county party's executive director.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Classic example....
I've been an elected executive committee member for many years for our party...

We all got together and endorsed candidates and then the party stood behind that candidate in the primary...

There was always intimidation involved somewhere, somehow in the endorsement process...

Still, it allowed the party regulars to have a say and then left it up to the voters to vote up or down on each of the candidates on the slate...

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sorrybushisfromtexas Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Texas Caucus
I was not the precinct chair but I brought plenty of extra copies of any form that was needed that I downloaded from the State Democratic Site. Our envelope did not have enough sign in sheets, but three Obama people brought enough for 50 or 60 more people. Clinton got 9 delegates to our county convention, Obama got 6. I guess it was because I was a boy scout, I came prepared.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. So, you came prepared. So what? The votes in those 3 precincts won't count. n/t
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
58. The TX caucuses need to go because they ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC
I don't know about the other states.

Isn't it funny how the Democratic party supports a process that is NOT DEMOCRATIC?
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chascarrillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
59. only 30000 people showed up to caucus in WA? Bullshit.
Get your facts straight before lecturing everybody else. Thanks.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Check here...
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. That's the number of state delegates, not the caucus attendance.
McCain got 238,000 votes in Washington. I think Obama and Clinton got more. Much, much more.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Those are the caucus goers...
The primary results for the dem primary have not been certified yet...

The Rep results have been released...

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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Obama had a rally in Seattle that had 21,000 attendees.
Estimates were that attendance was twice the previous record of 100,000 statewide. Or about 200,000.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23087464 /
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/results
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
61. It'll be moot in 2012..nobody's running against President Obama

















Missed you, "over there", Slick Willie.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. A good time to test the fifty state primary system...
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 06:50 PM
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62. Proud to be the fifth rec for the Greatest Page...
Well said...

:patriot:
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