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Memo to CNN: It's Saturday, You Morons.

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:14 PM
Original message
Memo to CNN: It's Saturday, You Morons.
CNN was on earlier spinning why Clinton does poorly in most caucus states, and trotting out the old excuse of "Well, all her voters have to work 9 to 5, only the ivy-league latte liberals have time to go caucus."

Never mind the fact that your employer is legally obligated to let you go vote, AND to pay you for the time...

IT'S SATURDAY, YOU MORONS.
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AGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Many people have to work on saturday.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thought you gave up on Clinton?
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. I thought so too .. but then, it's a day later.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Maybe her post was satirical the other day.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. the vast majority don't
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. The poorest, and most likely to vote Democratic in an election, do.
I would argue the majorty of those people in fact.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Really? More than on, say, Tuesday? nt
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 03:21 PM by TheWraith
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. What's this in reference to?
Super Tuesday?

Polls allow you to go to them any time in the day. Caucuses do not. I personally would want a national voting day (national holiday), but what can ya do.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Agreed. A national voting day. The caucus scenario creates all kind of difficulties. Even if your
boss is supposed to give you the time off, it's difficult to say you'll be out for several hours because your caucusing. Primaries work better with the option to vote before, during or after the workday.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I believe the "real" democrats all work Saturday.
the ones that count.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Most Americans don't even vote in the general elections
But the primary and caucus sites this time are seeing record numbers of Dems turning out. Bellyaching means very little right now. Not with people turning out in such numbers.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. If you can't take a few hours of once in 4 years...
then you probably really don't care that much.. Heck, take a whole day off for democracy. Bring the kids along. Personally I feel that getting them used to the idea of voting for the president once every four years (twice if you want to count primary day and November) is a lot more important than weekly baseball practice or whatever. In fact, more important than school.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. It didn't work out that well in Nevada where employees were pressured or intimidated during the cauc
us. Not as easy as you portray it.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Yeah, I remember what a huge scandal that wasn't.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Saturday is my job's busiest day of the week next to Sunday
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yeah, all the middle class get their day off and all the lower class, have to, you know, work extra.
That's reality.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. While retirees (who favor Clinton) have all day to vote or caucus.
Also, some states add bond initiatives and property tax measures to the ballot that get older voters out to vote.

So cut the bullshit. No form of voting is going to be fair to everyone.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Yep, the old and the young are generally who show up to caucuses.
The middle ground are the ones who are left out. We've been over it a hundred times before.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I saw plenty of middle aged people at the caucus in WY on the news footage
They were the easily the majority at the caucus I volunteered at in TX too. You're going to have to find another excuse for why Hillary lost.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. It's not an excuse, my sig illustrates it as a fact.
It is irrefutable that if you have to show up at a certain time of the day to do something, if everyone had to do it, then a good number of them can't.

Caucuses in this *record breaking caucus season* pull 2% of registered voters (based on Washington state's caucus, and a few others, I need to find the links again). That's all! THAT'S ALL!
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
62. I dispute your sig line.
IMO, Obama's delegates "cost" more because he earned them by convincing people to devote up to several hours of their day to caucus. He spent a great deal of money and resources setting up offices in small caucus states. Hillary got more of her votes in primaries, many of which are held in states with early and mail-in voting. There's simply not as much of a time commitment for most voters in a primary as there is in a caucus, that is, unless they live in a community where election officials deliberately put fewer voting machines to discourage people from voting (of course, those would be in districts that favor Obama in this election). Add to that states often add local primaries and initiatives to the ballot, thus attracting more older voters. Hillary won states she barely campaigned in, like Arizona, where she benefitted from a closed primary, and a large retired and Hispanic population.

The fact is she hasn't worked that hard for her votes. She assumed she was going to ride in on a wave of inevitability and the incompetence and disorganization of her campaign reflected it. And now she's working the media to keep herself afloat.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. Oh so people in red states are more valuable than those in blue?
I'm sorry, but I don't buy that whatsoever. Caucuses are easier to campaign (you can campaign at, in and around the caucus, unlike polls which that is illegal).
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Um, red and blue had nothing to do with it.
Your candidate is the one talking about which states "don't count" not us. And I'm sorry, but I'm not buying your little sob story about campaigning at the caucuses. You can campaign at most polls as long as you maintain a certain distance too.

I notice you completely avoided my point, which is that Hillary didn't work harder for her delegates than Obama did. You know it's true.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. That explains some of the turnout at the caucuses. Doesn't sound very
fair to me.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #50
69. 2% of registered voters in WA.
Let that sink in a bit.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. And of course, Obama people don't have jobs at all..... right?


Though... somehow he seems to do VERY well among those making more than $50,000 per year.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. The people making 50k a year get weekends off.
The people making barely 20k if not 15k do not.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Lucky for you since most of them are young and would be going for Obama.
Not all people in their 20s are in college, just so you know.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Yep, the caucuses disenfranchise everyone. But clearly there has to be a reason that Hillary...
...does so poorly in them, and I believe it is because she caannot get a sampling of the whole of the population and because of the coercion present at caucuses.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Right. It can't be because people don't like her enough to come out and caucus for her.
She said herself that caucuses attract more of the "activist" types.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. So you have to be an activist for your voice to be heard?
That's pretty bizarre to me.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
71. I bet if they were coming out for Hillary it wouldn't be bizarre to you.
That said, this is the first time in a long time that the pres. primaries and caucuses have not been the sole province of the politically engaged minority. The turnout we're seeing right now is not the norm, and I'm sure you know that. Funny how there wasn't this outcry about people being "disenfranchised" by the system before Obama started winning stuff. The Clintons have been the putative heads of the Democratic party for 16 years now and they've had plenty of time to revamp the system if it was so bad. Bill Clinton loved caucuses when he was winning them, didn't he? But now they are sooooo unfair.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. I'm not endorsing either argument. I just think that many folks now work Saturday
I do see that many folks who have better paying positions have weekends off. I work six days a week.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. So I see - you've been posting on DU all morning.
You must be really, really busy.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I work nights smart ass
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 03:28 PM by bigtree
at a grocery store. Worked days there for 20 years, though.

go play with someone else
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I heard someone had a caucus at 9 am which was moved back from 1pm.
What a joke. Gotta go find that post, I wonder if they missed it.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Cearly you're awake enough to go caucus i there was one on.
Like I said, if you can't find time once every 4 years, you're not trying.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. who said I was speaking for myself? I know plenty of folks who work ALL day long
The OP claims to speak for the entire voting population. Sounds like that's your hook as well.

You must be fortunate enough to have the time to take off whenever you want. That's special.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. One day in every FOUR years. Everyone can manage that.
Sorry, I've done plenty of blue-collar and minimum wage jobs in my day. I'm not buying this 'impossible' argument - it's pure victimology. According to you guys, no Obama supporters have responsibilities, jobs, or economic hardships to overcome.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. You're arguing for a physical impossiblity.
People can take an hour off of work during the whole day, yes, that's absolutely possible. I'm flipping burgers, I take my lunch break, I run down to a poll, I vote. A national holiday would remove that hinderance from most people, but it's not happening (we're talking tens of billions of lost revenue for the society).

But with a caucus I have to be off at a certain time, if that time is when I or someone of my class has to be working, someone must take that spot for me or I risk losing my job.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Swap shifts with someone then.
Sorry, I used to flip burgers for $5/hour and I still found ways to take time off if I had something I really wanted to do on that day.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. OK and if you didn't "really want" to take time off to spend 2 hours to do something?
But you didn't mind spending 10 minutes to do something?

There's a reason 2% of registered voters caucus in our record breaking season.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. Judging by your typing, your not awake. Huh?
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Well, there's a compelling argument. This thread has jumped the shark!
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Obama supporters work on Saturday too, so give me a break on this shit.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. As if upper middle class people don't also have jobs
nt
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Plus, retirees have all day to vote while a lot of young people are working 2 jobs to get by.
And they can thank the generation that brought us Ronald Reagan for that.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Isn't that MORANS???


:shrug:
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Wow. Everyone gets Saturday off in WY?
Maybe I should move there.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I bet anyone who wants to can get time off.
It's not like it's a weekly, monthly, or even an annual commitment.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. If that happened society would come to a halt for that day.
Seriously. No one to serve your coffee at Starbucks or flip your burgers at McDonalds for 2-3 hours out of the day is big.

(And these caucuses are requiring that large of a commitment.)
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. People manage it for Superbowl and many other occasions.
Oh wait, they're not Clinton voters.

Sorry, I'm not buying this silly argument. Using your logic there would be no point in ever holding any kind of public or commercial event that might attract working people, because it might possibly bring society to a halt. Yet somehow people find time to go to sports games, watch tv shows, attend each others parties and so on. I guess from now on whenever I see someone enjoying some time off I'll dismiss them as overpaid elitists.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. My friend couldn't in TX. She was devastated. Maybe WY is different.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. She does poorly because her ground game is inferior to the supposedly...
...naive and untested Obama. If these campaigns are any indication of how they will run the White House, well, I think it's pretty obvious who will win.

$1,200.00 on Dunkin' Donuts in January
$11,000.00 on Pizza in January
$25,000.00 on Luxury Suits in Vegas
$275,000.00 to Sunrise Communications in South Carolina to "turn out the black vote". Good call there, huh?
$100,000.00 for party platters after Iowa.

Nice...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/us/politics/22clinton...
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
56. And Obama's party costs? Do you have those figures?
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Well, here's something....
Clinton's bakery costs were $5,950.53 for the 10 months up to and including Jan.
Obama's were $1,877.28 during the same period. I guess it was all those Lattes that made up the difference?

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/time-to-c...
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. Garsh, ALiberalSailor, that certainly is a whole lot of nuttin'. At least the costs are accounted
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:06 PM by elixir
for, it seems Obama's having a little difficulty filing his campaign finance report correctly. He left off many charges and didn't provide any breakdown on millions of credit card charges. Let's hope he's better at handling a multi trillion dollar budget. Let's hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/us/politics/18obama.h...
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I hope so to. At least with HRC, we won't have to worry about a..
...multi-trillion dollar budget if she spends like she has thus far.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wrong!
I know several people here in MN (where we only had 1 HOUR to caucus for our candidate from 7-8pm!) who were unable to get out of work....They were not able to vote.

Here's how it worked in MN....the caucus was full of college kids who had nothing to do in terms of responsibility...the nurses were at work, the wal-mart employees were at work, the girl that goes to college and works at Barnes and Noble? work. The ob/gyn deliverying a baby? You guessed it again...at WORK.

And they were not allowed to leave to vote fyi.

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Cry me a river
Once every four years. Anyone who really wants to be there can manage to take some time off, swap shifts, or something like that. I know plenty about being poor and needing every dollar, and I also know that where there's a will there's a way.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Swap shifts with another person who wants to vote? Are you not thinking?
OMG.

There's a reason true Democrats want a National Voters Holiday, and espouse the virtues of Direct Democracy where one vote counts equally among the rest (some of us even take it a bit further and favor runoff voting).
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. You're the one not thinking.
If everyone at your workplace wants to caucus, then you can get together and tell your boss you want to close for part of the day. Believe it or not this will usually work out just fine. You can pair off with an opposite voter if it's truly impossible to attend.

The primaries happen once in four years. You have months of advance notice to plan for it. Your excuses are laughable.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. No, these aren't excuses, I could care less about who wins at this point.
I have been vocal about defending Hillary only because of the hateful attitudes expressed here. There is little I can achieve here.

My position has been consistant for 8+ years. I'm against the caucusing system because it doesn't allow everyone to vote.

Your "solution" is what's laughable here, because stores aren't shutting down to let people vote. This is Capitalist America.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. Your obfuscation is pathetic.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. Sure...lets shut down the hospitals...
tell the lady having her baby to pant through for another couple of hours, let the motor vehicle accident victims lie on the roadside for the caucus time. Why not....they shouldn't impose on our right to vote by needing emergency care.

The individual college student that worked at B&N that I know asked for the shift off in a timely fashion but could not be granted it....and she was mad....she even considered not coming in to work out of protest but she needs her job!
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
64. Oh, go blow it out your arse you twit. "One day out of four years""One day out of four years" ...
If they can't go, they can't go.
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busymom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. and seriously...why such a small window to caucus?
If people had been able to vote in MN all day long then more moms, dads and working people could have shown up before their shifts, while their kids were at school, etc.

Caucus=sham
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. People that have Saturday off don't count
I'd expect Terry McAuliffe to say that tomorrow, if his satellite feed holds up.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Remember, before Clinton was Losing, Caucuses were perfectly Democratic and Acceptable.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Not the consistant posters, like me or robbedvoter, or wlucindia.
Don't generalize. Generalizations are unfair.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
73. There were no caucuses before clinton started losing so that one doesn't work.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Actually..
I don't think employers are required to give employees
a whole day to caucus.

Caucusing is very messy and time consuming, and it also
takes training.

So I think there's some validity to the idea that the
poor and working classes would be much less likely to
participate in caucuses.

Sue
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
46. Blue collar people work on Saturday, too. nt
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
60. Come on, most people have Saturday off. I once worked Sundays.
I was the only one out of my whole group of family and friends. My husband works Satudays but he is a church organ player so he has Saturday service. But most people still don't work on the weekend.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. That's such fucking bullshit, and so insulting.
Edited on Sat Mar-08-08 04:19 PM by Political Heretic
My state had a caucus, and I am not, nor weree the people around me some kind of rich elitist liberals -- I work my ass off at two jobs and go to school and I was STILL there. And I'll tell you, the people around me weren't some upper class percentile of the electorate.... they were people just like me.
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elixir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Caucus capture a very small % of the population therefore they do not provide an accurate measure of
the electorate.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. I prefer priamaries to caucuses too.
But that doesn't change what I said.
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